Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 82

[Nephrite]

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"No reason to hold things back, it seems like you're doing well... let's see!"


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.

Team Tide | Ramza, Cecilia ACF, Citan, RAP MASTER SEIFER (Body Charge), Raynie
[Ramza: Time/Item/Auto Potion/Short Charge/Float] [Chemist, Wizard, Time Mage, Priest (Summoner)(Oracle)]
[Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind]
Team Tide vs. Sasarai, Lich (FF1), Land Umber (SD3) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)
Team Tide vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji
Team Tide vs. Kary, Lucca, Yukiko, Ho-oh and Estella
Team Tide vs. Protea (WoZ), Marle, Lenus, and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)
Team Tide vs. Profound Darkness and Lamington

Team OK likes the Man Festival | Yuri1, Yuri2, Nash, Adray, Robo
[Floor 5a: Ceaseheal]
*On this floor, restoration of HP and MP are reduced to 10% (of whatever they normally were (ANY healing is 10%, even if it was overkill full healing)) and revival may not be used by the player team.
Team OK vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms)
Team OK vs. Krin, Karn, Locke and Jane
Team OK vs. Yulie, Nina1 and Yukiko
Team OK vs. Mua, Golem, Steelix and Cecil
Team OK vs. Berle

Team Super | Miakis, Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Brey (Status Symbol Law)
[Miakis: Water and Earth Runes]
Floor 3b: Multiply
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team Super vs. Raquel (WA4), Rudy (WA1), Brad (WA2) and Gallows (WA3)
Team Super vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage, FF3DS White Mage, Eiko and FFX-2 White Mage
Team Super vs. Alma, Kresnik, Tidus(Caladbolg) and Marco (RH)
Team Super vs. Boss Magus, Dalton and Augst
*Full Heal
Team Super vs. Lady Harken (ACF) and Zeikfried (ACF)

Team Dune | Timelord, Geddoe, Tidus, Aeris (Life), Mint
[Floor 2b: Magical Mystery]
Team Dune vs. FFT Wizard, FF1 Black Wizard and Vivi
Team Dune vs. Nina1, Nina2 and Nina3
Team Dune vs. Lemina, Mia, Jessica and Luna
Team Dune vs. Sarah (S3), Cleo and Bernadette
Team Dune vs. Lyon and Nergal


Resourceless - One character's spells and abilities are now free but you may not use the same ability more than once a fight. This does not apply to moves that drain all resources.

Body Charge - Increases the health, damage and effective speed of a character by 1.3x and decreases damage to them to .7x, but increases the cost of the character by 1.5x (rounded to nearest half point, .5s are 1.0s).

Status Symbol Law - Team is fully status, debuff and ID immune, but has damage done to them increased by 1.1x and damage done by them decreased to .9x.

Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 75%. (This means full healing is always 75%) The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle.

[superaielman]

Team Super | Miakis, Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Brey (Status Symbol Law)
[Miakis: Water and Earth Runes]
Floor 3b: Multiply
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team Super vs. Raquel (WA4), Rudy (WA1), Brad (WA2) and Gallows (WA3)- Status blitz.  Kiryl should have Whack by this point, Brey has sleep and Angelo has a couple as well.
Team Super vs. FF1 White Wizard, FFT Priest, FF5 White Mage, FF3DS White Mage, Eiko and FFX-2 White Mage- See above. Don't think the white mages will be able to stop enough of the status.
Team Super vs. Alma, Kresnik, Tidus(Caladbolg) and Marco (RH)  Tidus is knocked out by ID as soon as Cristo gets a turn, and I don't think anything the team can do can stop that. The fight is dangerous, but everyone but Alma can be status blitzed.
Team Super vs. Boss Magus, Dalton and Augst-  The L2 earth spell is one shot of magic immunity. Gives the team time to buff up and deal with Dalton.
*Full Heal
Team Super vs. Lady Harken (ACF) and Zeikfried (ACF)- Brey has good ice damage. Harken gets blitzed, don't think Ziek is a threat.

Team Dune | Timelord, Geddoe, Tidus, Aeris (Life), Mint
[Floor 2b: Magical Mystery]
Team Dune vs. FFT Wizard, FF1 Black Wizard and Vivi- Oh good lord, the pain.
Team Dune vs. Nina1, Nina2 and Nina3- Time twister Geddoe equals pain.
Team Dune vs. Lemina, Mia, Jessica and Luna- See above.
Team Dune vs. Sarah (S3), Cleo and Bernadette- Cleo has solid MT damage, but TL can use overdrive to sweep th is fight at worst.
Team Dune vs. Lyon and Nergal- Splatter Nergal. Lyon can't overwhelm the team.


Team OK likes the Man Festival | Yuri1, Yuri2, Nash, Adray, Robo
[Floor 5a: Ceaseheal]
*On this floor, restoration of HP and MP are reduced to 10% (of whatever they normally were (ANY healing is 10%, even if it was overkill full healing)) and revival may not be used by the player team.
Team OK vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms)- Nash+Yuri1 weaken field, Yuri2 picks off finishes off Rude.  I don't think Elena+Reno can kill anyone at this point. Adray/Yuri1/Robo heal, Yuri2 and Nash finish off the bosses.
Team OK vs. Krin, Karn, Locke and Jane- OK's team is fairly durable, I don't think anyone dies from a follow me zerg. Should be able to kill the field, status a PC, and blow Adray and Robo's MP on healing.
Team OK vs. Yulie, Nina1 and Yukiko
Team OK vs. Mua, Golem, Steelix and Cecil- MT magical beatings. Yeah. Golem/Steelix get trashed in a hurry. Mua and Cecil may get turns, but they aren't that deadly to a team.
Team OK vs. Berle- You generally beat Berle if you get to him in okay shape and have decent offense.

[Dunefar]

Oh wow, I didn't realize this moved so fast. Anyway, I'll second Super's votes.

[Nephrite]

It's usually up for a week but I got impatient this time.

[Dunefar]

Fair enough. My head's usually off in the clouds anyway.

[SnowFire]

Team super passes.  Dunno about the Cristo hype, he's only barely above average speed IIRC, but Angelo is fast and has Thwack, and Alma isn't so fast when she isn't allowed Thief Hat (and wants a Ribbon anyway).  (Usual comment that Marco is status immune, but Drops apparently doesn't get ID, so.)  That saves him on a very scary fight.

Team Tide | Ramza, Cecilia ACF, Citan, RAP MASTER SEIFER (Body Charge), Raynie
[Ramza: Time/Item/Auto Potion/Short Charge/Float] [Chemist, Wizard, Time Mage, Priest (Summoner)(Oracle)]
[Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind]
Team Tide vs. Sasarai, Lich (FF1), Land Umber (SD3) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)
I assume Citan / Seifer gank Sasarai first.  Scar & one of the other two flatten someone, and the other statuses (Lich has HOLD, Land Umber apparently has Sleep)...  probably Seifer?  I suppose they get Cecilia since Raynie isn't important and Ramza has Auto-Potion.  This is actually a bit dicey as Meteor will trigger Scar's counters maybe, but maybe Ramza settles for status-curing Seifer while Raynie zaps Lich's weakness.  I think with Citan help next turn Lich goes down, and Land Umber has a weakness too, and the fight is probably controllable from there.  Set up the usual dying Seifer routine for next fight.

Team Tide vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji
FF4DS Val isn't a speed demon apparently.  Anyway the opening Fire Cross hurts too much, the rest of the team cleans up.

Team Tide vs. Kary, Lucca, Yukiko, Ho-oh and Estella
Fire Cross is non-elemental, duh, just like FFT Lightning Stab (sigh).  That leaves maaaaaaaaybe Kary & Ho-oh to fight and they're horribly wounded.

Team Tide vs. Protea (WoZ), Marle, Lenus, and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)
Protea's MT Confusion sounds pretty ridiculous in the dungeon - 2 shots of 50% Confuse that isn't dispelled by physicals?  Holy crap, that's quickly leading to everyone going crazy if she gets a single turn.  That said I presume Fire Cross + Citan beatdown can take her down.  Lenus is still potentially a threat since she's being chipped into her danger zone but eh, just one shot of her stuff is survivable before Ramza can bring down the Meteors.

Team Tide vs. Profound Darkness and Lamington
Kill Lamington, set up Raynie regen, have Cecilia heal through PD's attacks.

So Tide passes.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Tide vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji
FF4DS Val isn't a speed demon apparently.  Anyway the opening Fire Cross hurts too much, the rest of the team cleans up.

Team Tide vs. Protea (WoZ), Marle, Lenus, and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)
Protea's MT Confusion sounds pretty ridiculous in the dungeon - 2 shots of 50% Confuse that isn't dispelled by physicals?  Holy crap, that's quickly leading to everyone going crazy if she gets a single turn.  That said I presume Fire Cross + Citan beatdown can take her down.  Lenus is still potentially a threat since she's being chipped into her danger zone but eh, just one shot of her stuff is survivable before Ramza can bring down the Meteors.

Team Tide vs. Profound Darkness and Lamington
Kill Lamington, set up Raynie regen, have Cecilia heal through PD's attacks.

So Tide passes.

Just to note, unless Citan and Seifer both want to attack Sasarai in the first turn, they'll need Fire Cross to kill him (His Pdur isn't going, but it's not typical Suikomage level at least). Topic implies Val may be fairly fast turn 1, since it says "above average" for speed, but then notes that is over the long haul due to the game weighing against the enemy when PCs get turns (but therefore hasn't kicked in if no PC has yet had one!). Protea is rather durable (as in should be able to take a Fire Cross and Citan attack, for all that you could take WoOz enemy MT with a grain of salt). Limit Lenus can most likely get out an already significantly damaged Seifer (and I guess he needs to be significantly damaged to really get the limits odd high enough to not stall). Against PD, for Cecilia (and the rest of the team to not be) not to killed, they need to have Cecilia cast Retaliate before knocking PD into form 2. This is not cheap, and also means that they need to focus ST on Lamington a bit (which may mean delaying Fire Cross). Team is still 2 revivers, one of which only has really MP consumptive revival. Enemies still have the same general goal as most floors. Will throw out actual analysis later though.

[SnowFire]

How durable is Protea roughly in PCHP terms?  I don't know Oz so can't guess at a good scaling.

I do assume that Sasarai requires both Seifer & Citan, yes.

Possible that FF4DS Barb deserves more turn 1 speed hype, but eh, 126-128% average speed is pretty fast, inclined to give it to Seifer unless there's something more definite in the stat topic.  Agree that Limit Lenus easily takes down limit Seifer, but I don't think it really matters, the fight is under control by then.

I don't really know ACF Cecilia very well.  If she has horribly limited resources, that can potentially switch my vote, yes, I was just assuming she can handle the spam healing vs. PD role.  What's the issue vs. PD though?  If the problem is Cecilia dying round 1, as long as Lamington only gets 1 turn, Ramza can toss Phoenix Downs until a double worst comes to worst (and he'll get it, Thief Hat), PD1 appears to only be single target.  As for PD2, yeah, with all that MT once Cecilia goes down it's all over for Tide, but seems you already hit on Retaliate saving the day, so think he's fine anyway?  Fair point that the PD fight is actually kinda scary for Team Tide, he's not really set up for long slugfests.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Two estimates of Protea's HP are in this thread where she fought Kyogre last Futurama season: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,6062.0.html. They're 1.65 and 1.82 from Snow/myself respectively. Other people might also be able to weigh in, but it should give you an idea.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Team Dune passes

Team Super vs. Boss Magus, Dalton and Augst-  The L2 earth spell is one shot of magic immunity. Gives the team time to buff up and deal with Dalton.

If you're immune to magic, how are you buffing yourself?

[superaielman]

Pretty sure it's just attack magic.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Furthermore, I'm not sure Vengeful Child's even necessary because that fight fails it up a new one in face of healing - the added up counters don't even one-round average and Team aiel has inane amounts of healing.

[Random Consonant]

Furthermore, I'm not sure Vengeful Child's even necessary because that fight fails it up a new one in face of healing - the added up counters don't even one-round average and Team aiel has inane amounts of healing.

This.  Kiryl, Angelo, a water rune, *and* Solofia?  That level of healing owns the counterwhore fight hard.

[SnowFire]

DHE: Yeah, that's tanky, but not tanky enough.  If Protea is 1.8 PCHP...  say Seifer's Fire Cross is a "mere" 1.3 PCHP (so sticking Fire Cross in the damage averages).  Yamikei is Floor 8, so Citan's damage is certainly .50 PCHP worth, so Protea doesn't get a turn.

That's still an absolutely crushing addition for teams without boatloads of Confuse resist since blitzing that kind of durability is hard.  Even if characters can pass their turn to avoid the MT effect (like Wizard of Oz, right?), she's got support, so that strategy won't work real great.

[dude789]

Tide's team fails, others pass.

[Dhyerwolf]

Seifer's limit
96% HP- 1% Limit
50% HP- 45% Limit
1% HP- 90% Limit

Okay
Team Tide | Ramza, Cecilia ACF, Citan, RAP MASTER SEIFER (Body Charge), Raynie
[Ramza: Time/Item/Auto Potion/Short Charge/Float] [Chemist, Wizard, Time Mage, Priest (Summoner)(Oracle)]
[Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind]
Team Tide vs. Sasarai, Lich (FF1), Land Umber (SD3) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)- Citan can hit Seifer, but can't really get turn 1 limit over 50% rate to start. So...do they use both to knock out Sasarai I guess. Lich has the paralysis, Land Umber can OHKO Cecilia or can combine with Scar to get Ramza out if they get a turn together (Land Umber has 90% magic or 80% physical and Scar has 75% physical, so that seems pretty clear). Good to note that there's a chance that if they want Ramza anymore, they have to blow 25% of Cecilia's MP. Oh, and they'll still need to pick enemies off 1 by 1 until Seifer is hit (and if he's only hit once, he'll have to skip a fair number of turns and get some bad lag).
Team Tide vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji- Let's say that Seifer is coming into this fight at about 45% of his HP left. They can mostly mop this team up (whether Barby goes first is a question mark of course).
Team Tide vs. Kary, Lucca, Yukiko, Ho-oh and Estella- Yukiko has nasty evade, and on average will need to be mopped up. Worth noting that Kary lives through Fire Cross and a Citan attack thanks to defense (Like 3.5 Pdur), so she should get a turn (whether it has any effect is a different story)
Team Tide vs. Protea (WoZ), Marle, Lenus, and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)- I was about the same level as Pyro, so Protea is not having trouble taking this (He notes that best possible damage is 1000 a round, making her minimum 1.6 PC HP to me; Maybe 2.2 for me, which averages best team with average team)
Team Tide vs. Profound Darkness and Lamington- Lamington is decently durable to me...and...he cuts physicals by like 50%. He can at least throw out 80% physical (aka: Cecilia is dead before acting. As noted, she needs to be casting Retaliate or PD can easily take out revivers with physicals in later forms). Of course, Seifer must also be running at low HP,  but PD can take him out (or if Ramza has sustained some damage which is unhealed can take him out, which would be no revivers). Citan arguably takes a Lammy counter too and isn't so well damaged. I just can't see the team getting past this fight. It's a crazy long slog to get past PD, their best damage source requires someone to be at constantly low HP, there are only two revivers one of which is highly MP limited and needs to focus MP in other places to get by (and also I guess they need the other fights to generally go pretty well). There may be some places that Citan can switch to MT then speed buff, but that also means that those fights lose a lot of the ability to kill before average speed (Which is about where Raynie is, and even with Short Charge, Meteor doesn't get off quite that quickly). Fights 1, 4 and 5 all have things that can really trip them up (Also fight 2 if Barby is fast enough and Seifer is going in with heavy damage to make the limit enough of an assurance).

[SnowFire]

Dhyer: For the first fight, Ramza's Ether is Floor 1 and can fix up Cecilia's MP if she has to revive Ramza.  Also Lich is not long for this world - Raynie's G-Fire smashes his weakness, he's probably plain OHKOed by it.  As for the battles 2-4, in general I think the team wants to chip Seifer to <5% HP or whatever.  (If you disallow self-chipping then Tide is probably screwed anyway, and Seifer has 100% HP at all times as enemies avoid multitarget attacks, so no Seifer at 45% HP.)

Yukiko's evade shouldn't matter if Fire Cross goes off, think all Limits are ITE anyway even ignoring Seifer's 255 Accuracy.

Agree that Fight 4 is problematic if Protea survives, but I'd lean toward holding her against the "best" possible damage, so she probably bites it.

If Lamington tanks his way through Seifer / Citan and Short Charge (Demi / Meteor / etc.) is seen as slower than average (it...  probably is, despite Thief Hat hype), and Raynie is seen as going after Lamington, then yeah Tide is screwed in fight 5 since Cecilia will die.  Don't think I'm on board for Lamington durability hype though, and would see Raynie as faster anyway - she's exactly average according to the stat topic, but the stat topic also assumes Eruca wears the Shadowrun dress for +5 Speed which isn't probably what is done in-game (for all that it crucially props her on the right side of average speed in the DL), and assuming she wears a defense dress at least some of the time (which has a minor Speed penalty!), I'm definitely willing to tiebreak Raynie as a tad fast.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Lamington should lose tiebreaks due to going second in-game, to boot. I definitely don't agree with Lamington doing 80%, either... he did 74% to me and I had about the lowest Disgaea levels I've heard of people having. (ACF Cecilia has .77 pdur, so the distinction matters!)

[Dhyerwolf]

Hmm, maybe you used more defensive Lamington setups compared to me (our levels were basically near identical) or just PCs with more defense (also use a different ACF average I believe! I think 75% Physicals would get Cecilia to me). Although I don't think the tiebreak would matter for Lamington as he gets a turn regardless. Is it Ethers or Hi-Ethers that are storebought? That would help, although I'd need to look at then when Ramza would get the actions.

Yukiko's evasion covers everything in game (which I tend to find more a trump), although 255 Acc might get it anyways.

Regarding Protea and best possible damage, that's one character buffing another another one, then the other one using a multi-hit unfocusing skill (I think this unfocuses? And Protea has two small allies, so this damage can not even be used turn one reliably against her. They might even have 2 hits of the 4 of Battle Wind before dying meaning that it might not fully focus until turn 3 on average. This is not factoring in the other ways that she can mess this strategy up, or that fact that the one person doing that monster 1000 damage is also doubly weak to all her magic). But I'd have to look at everything again.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Both ethers are eventually storebought in FFT (and at floor 7, there's really no reason for him to not have them both, Hi-Ethers become storebought floor 5 at latest). And there -are- non-evadable attacks in P4, though they are very few and far between! Also, doesn't Cecilia just go before Lamington after Citan casts Haste -anyway- if she needs to get a turn so bad? Protect halves physicals, is MT and should keep the OHKO from him away.

[Dhyerwolf]

If Citan hastes Cecilia round 1, then Lamington uses AoE and probably damages Cecilia and kills 5 HP Seifer and PD then hits Cecilia though.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Dhyer: I was using the ACF average which is relevant to floor 7: yes to Emma and Jane, but no to Zed. (This is probably ACF Cecilia's peak floor for durability, as Emma and Jane aren't simultaneously around until F7, and Zed joins on F8.) Note also that the 0.77 pdur is against average physicals; IIRC you translate subtractive defences literally, which means Cecilia's low defence is less relevant than usual against an above average attack like Judgement.

[DjinnAndTonic]

While I'm all for Disgaea respect, after reading the breakdown on Tide's team, I'm gonna say he passes.

Furthermore, I'm not sure Vengeful Child's even necessary because that fight fails it up a new one in face of healing - the added up counters don't even one-round average and Team aiel has inane amounts of healing.

This.  Kiryl, Angelo, a water rune, *and* Solofia?  That level of healing owns the counterwhore fight hard.

And... I'll bite. Add a pass for the aiel.

[ThePiggyman]

Pass for Dune and Super.

Abstain on OK and Tide.

[Dhyerwolf]

Protect halves physicals, is MT and should keep the OHKO from him away.

Cecilia's Protect? I think that's MT Mdef up. Shield is MT Def Up, but 25% of the stat.