Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 86

[Nephrite]

"Well, you managed to make it all the way to me. I wonder if your friends can muster the same strength... Let's find out!"


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.

Team Super | Miakis, Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Brey (Status Symbol Law)
[Miakis: Mother Earth, Cyclone, Magic Absorb]
Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind
Team Super vs. Sasarai, Lich (FF1), Land Umber (SD3) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)
Team Super vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji
Team Super vs. Kary, Lucca, Yukiko, Ho-oh and Alen (S1)
Team Super vs. Fiegmund (SD3), Marle, Lenus, Kraken(FF1) and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)
Team Super vs. Profound Darkness and Lamington

Team Snowfire | Fang, Vanille, Snow (Firefly), Lightning (Leader), Hope
Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)
Team Snowfire vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Snowfire vs. Jack(WA:ACF) and Rudy(WAo1)
Team Snowfire vs. Opera, Ernest and Celene
Team Snowfire vs. Killey (S2), Lorelai (S2) and Pesmerga (S2)
Team Snowfire vs. Sothe, Karn, Edward(FF4) and Vyse

Team Magic | Shania, Rydia (Life)+Rosa,Hilda, Jane, Nall
Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)
Team Magic vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Magic vs. Jack(WA:ACF) and Rudy(WAo1)
Team Magic vs. Opera, Ernest and Celene
Team Magic vs. Killey (S2), Lorelai (S2) and Pesmerga (S2)
Team Magic vs. Sothe, Karn, Edward(FF4) and Vyse

Team Tal | Celes (Speed?) Nel, Lyn, Yukiko, Cray
[Celes: Kirin]
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Tal vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4) and Gorudo
Team Tal vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Tal vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Tal vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and LORD OCHU (FFX)
Team Tal vs. Lich and Kraken

Firefly - The first attack of each enemy will be redirected at the bearer of this sealstone. Multitarget  moves are not affected. If a status is used that prevents the target from acting (Petrify, Sleep, etc.) then the effect is nullified until the status is removed.

Status Symbol Law - Team is fully status, debuff and ID immune, but has damage done to them increased by 1.1x and damage done by them decreased to .9x.

Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 75%. (This means full healing is always 75%) The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle.

[dude789]

So Deis1 is slow and frail right now around .7 PCHP, and let's say she has decentish 2HKO damage. The problem is that the rest of the team is also slow or frail or both. Looking at the Suikoden fight because that seems to be like the one with the most obvious potential to cause trouble.
Turn order is something like  Jane > Lorelai > Killey > Deis > Rosa > Rydia > Hilda > Pesmerga
Killey has one shot of really good MT fire damage with Explosion which does... .75 PCHP. So Rydia and Deis get OHKOed by Explosion which leaves Lorelai available to kill Rosa with her turn. Hilda can ID someone, but if she ID's Pesmerga then Killey and Lorelai just finish her off next turn and if she ID's one of the mages then Pesmerga kills her when her turn comes along. So I think team magic fails.  Tal should pass, will wait on analysis on the other teams.

[SnowFire]

Team Talaysen passes, 4 healers vs. Floor 1, Yukiko even hits weakness on Lich not that it's needed.

I pass, Firefly on Floor 2.  Those teams can't really even kill Commando Snow (~1.25 PCHP) before my turn goes off and they eat too much damage to recover from.  If you see one as able to (maybe Niki + Flay?) then open with Snow as a Sentinel, it's not THAT horrible an offense cut.  Edward in the final fight can maybe confuse Snow which may turn off Firefly, but it doesn't matter since Edward's backup is pretty terrible.

[SnowFire]

Also dude: Deis1 is slow?  What?  Even if you throw Ox & Mogu out of the averages, you end up with (using endgame values) a 127 speed average, which Deis's 141 speed solidly beats.  (Edit: To preempt what I think your response might be, throwing Gobi out is not recommended since Deis joins after him and never doesn't compete with him.  If you're being literal, then Deis's spells don't scale with her stats and F2 is still before her join time, so she can OHKO everything if you get too literal.  I mean sure if you make every possible call against her she's bad, but that's true of any character.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Deis1 is below average speed when she joins, which is how dude scales her prior to her joining. Seems as reasonable a view as any to me. She only becomes fast after she's gained some levels (her growth is in general, much better than that of other characters, both the raw number of levels gained per exp and the stat growth per level).

Deis' starting spells don't OHKO average basically except maaybe on floor 1... her starting spell damage is the same as Bo's, which actually exists in-game by F2 (and isn't OHKO level).

[Nephrite]

I will toss out here that I think it's entirely reasonable to see Rosa having Cure 2 right now, and she also pretty much starts with Life. I also feel like she ought to be able to survive Killey and Lorelai, I seem to recall Rosa's HP being actually surprisingly decent around that very early point.

[dude789]

Yeah, the thing about Deis1 is that she starts off with an average level and because of BoF EXP weirdness she has a level explosion almost immediately after she joins which shoots up her speed, skillset and durability. Of course the problem now is that she hasn't joined and therefore doesn't have the chance yet to get those levels. If you look at Meeple's boss notes she actually lowers both the hp and agility average for the boss fight she joins in. As for Rosa, Explosion and Furious Blow is 1.34 PCHP. I don't think she survives that even when her hp is at her best without an equip to reduce the elemental damage.

[Nephrite]

Oh shoot, I somehow forgot Lorelai had a Lightning Rune.

[SnowFire]

Ah.  Yeah, I'd throw that out, or at most hold it against Deis1 just on Floor 1.  Otherwise you end up with crazy stuff like Peppita an epic Puny on Floors 1-4 because she joins at level 1, or Suikoden V fighters stuck with weapon level 1 and fail forever until they actually join.

[Nephrite]

I'll also toss out that Deis1 would need her price adjusted accordingly if she were super terrible until Floor 5 or whatever.

[Magic Fanatic]

As for Rosa, Explosion and Furious Blow is 1.34 PCHP. I don't think she survives that even when her hp is at her best without an equip to reduce the elemental damage.

Ah, so Lorelai has a way of getting around Jane's Sucker and blowing Rosa up instead of her?

Assuming not, Lorelai is forced to blow up Jane, Killey uses his shot of Explosion which fails to kill Rosa...  Hilda doubles Gale on Rosa and Grand Slam on Lorelai, Rosa casts Cure2, and then I can pretty much coast from there, as far as I figure.  Killey only has one shot of Explosion, so if I make it through the first turn, I win the fight.

[SnowFire]

Also since the Suikoden fight is being hyped, I guess I'll go into that with a little more detail for my team.  Snow gets Fringeward in his first Crystarium level so it's pretty much Floor 1/2.  Killey's fire blast of doom does ~.75 PCHP, sure, which would normally be enough to kill Hope, but not through Fringeward.  Lorelei's MT Lightning zap "spreads out" over 5 targets and is nailed by Fringeward anyway so totally fails, so she's stuck with Furious Blow against Snow.  Furious Blow is .59 PCHP by Dhyer's averages and hits a column.  As usual good luck figuring out how to interp that is in the Dungeon, but let's say one person is selected at random to be in the same column as Snow.  The only way this is trouble is if Lightning is in the same column and eats a leader-death loss.  .75+.59 / 1.35 = .99 PCHP, or a survival check or thereabouts.  So Lightning might die (depending on variance + damage averages used) 1/4 of the time when she's in the same column as Snow, maybe.  1/2 of the time Hope or Vanille dies, and 1/4 of the time Fang makes her own survival check.

After that the FF13 team gets their turn, and it's just cleanup after that.  Lightning + Fang slash Killey to ribbons, Hope / Vanille / both (depending on who got hit by Furious Blow) heal any key members of the party up, Snow tanks, Pesmerga uselessly hits Snow, Lorelei's 2nd turn is worthless after the healing, then Lorelei dies, then the team heals up against lone Pesmerga. 

[dude789]

Team FF13 probably shouldn't have trouble with that one. They just all truncate their attacks and gang up on Killey before he gets a turn.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

If you wanted Lorelai to suck, you could have picked her S2 form instead for that fight. <_<

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'll also toss out that Deis1 would need her price adjusted accordingly if she were super terrible until Floor 5 or whatever.

To be perfectly honest I don't see any compelling reason for Deis to be good before she joins. If her speed and HP are bad when she joins, then why should they be good before she joins? Unlike Peppita etc. she doesn't join underlevelled, so that's a bad parallel. A better parallel would be someone like a hypothetical FE10 Elincia who first joined in part 4... kinda meh stats upon join (despite not being underlevelled) then stupid good stat growth kicks her up to awesome after a couple maps. Deis1 being awesome before she joins, when she's unimpressive upon joining, just doesn't make sense to me.

I'd suggest for Deis1 (and any other latejoiners with strange spikes in use after they do join) to be removed from the roster in the future to avoid this, because I don't think there's a good, intuitive solution for such duellers.

[SnowFire]

Sure there is.  Don't scale to the exact second of join time, but rather scale to the "Floor" of join time.  Deis's problems are largely (if not entirely) resolved within ~2 dungeons in a giant slog of a game, so squint a bit and scale her at the rough time of joining.

Also don't see why the Peppita comparison is bad.  Deis1 gains levels fast after join time, or more relevantly, stats/spells (to reach her natural higher-than-the-party level, early SNES level XP charts plot).  If both characters get notably better given a small amount of play, it's the same situation.  If anything Peppita / Sophia / Roger's level penalty is far more memorable than Deis's slightly slow start, which as pointed out is not even that big a deal and quickly moved beyond.

---

Moving on...   according to #NyarlieDungeon, Jane's Sucker is super-broken and has like a 90-100% MT hit rate off her speed, so she's a Firefly rune user in disguise.  Possibly even worth yet another cost upgrade.  Most of Team Magic's first fights are something like "let Jane die from enemy beats while Hilda/Deis clean up."

Team Magic | Deis1, Rydia (Life)+Rosa,Hilda, Jane, Nall
Team Magic vs. Killey (S2), Lorelai (S5) and Pesmerga (S2)
First off, high Deis respect means that she + Hilda threaten to just MT nuke everyone.  Deis's MT spells have a damage hit attached in general, and Hilda doesn't have true MT, but remember that the SH3 damage average doesn't have Awaker or Shania's most broken stuff yet, so Thorn Whip ain't all bad, and Killey / Lorelei are like ~.9 PCHP magic durability or thereabouts (although Pesmerga is better, he's good good MDef according to the stat topic and above average HP).  Let's ignore that for now, though, and assume the BoF1 damage average is high enough that this trick won't work.

On the downside...  unlike dude, I think Pesmerga may be faster than Rosa/Rydia, fail.  Rosa-Rydia are ~.75-.80 speed, while Pesmerga is ~.80-.84.

I don't think Deis1 starts with good status, so she's stuck with damage, so her speed doesn't actually matter very much since she isn't OHKOing anyone.  Jane uses Sucker, Deis zaps people at some point.  Killey will use the fire blast of doom of course.  If Lorelei uses her spread-Lightning, it does like .10 PCHP to everyone, not enough to kill people other than Child Rydia (who is already dead).  So she Soaring Bolt's it up, executing Jane + one other person at random.

If Lorelie kills with the extra person assumed to be in the column on Soaring Bolt...
* If Deis gets hit, this is the best case.  If Pesmerga goes, he kills Rosa, and that's bad, so Hilda wants to be Curvy and Grand Slam him instead.  Rosa Cure2's the team...  oh but now they eat Lorelei + Killey turns again and die since Jane + Deis were wiped out by Lorelei and Rydia died to Killey.  If Rosa has some status (Berserk?) she can throw instead, she hits Killey, Lorelei takes out Rosa, and Hilda will be stuck with 1 HP teammates for the next fight, which is bad.

* If Hilda got hit, that is bad.  Pesmerga kills Rosa, and Deis needs to solo.

* If Rosa got hit...  Hilda can ID Killey (or maybe do some healing game?) but Pesmerga will slash up Deis and that will be that.

Huh, Team Magic might die here after all, even with decent Deis respect.  When he ekes through, it's oftentimes relying on Nall healing for the next fight, where Karn & Edward might beat Jane to the Sucker quickdraw.  Might have to research just how bad a damage hit Deis takes by dropping to MT early in the game, since I think the team really wants to threaten that Deis + Slim Hilda kill Killey & Lorelei if not disrupted game.

Team Magic vs. Sothe, Karn, Edward(FF4) and Vyse

[dude789]

I think Thorn Whip is aerial only so Hilda needs a double to use it, of course she does have her stellars, but those have pretty small AoE's and worse damage. As for Deis, I think her best MT damage is 5.5 which is 50 damage, so a bit below average I guess, but yeah even if they get past that fight it leaves them in a very bad position for the next one which has a lot of fast people to pick the team off again.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Super | Miakis, Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Brey (Status Symbol Law)
[Miakis: Mother Earth, Cyclone, Magic Absorb]
So
Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind
Team Super vs. Sasarai, Lich (FF1), Land Umber (SD3) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS)- Well, this is probably better if you take 4r (although things before would have been worse), but having not played that...team is not excelling at damage here. They can knock out Sasarai with status, but seems like some other bosses can get turns. I guess they might heal out of this.
Team Super vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji- Luc is pain here. That MT magic is nasty and quick. Brey is dead. Barby follows up likely next and can off Hero or Miakis. Still 2 revivers out, but if they go for revival, then Kanji and Luc probably get turns again and if they go for status, they are in danger of Tiamat actually not failing for once. They hate MT. Let's say they get past this though...
Team Super vs. Kary, Lucca, Yukiko, Ho-oh and Alen (S1)- At least Earthquake works here! As does status more.
Team Super vs. Fiegmund (SD3), Marle, Lenus, Kraken(FF1) and Cagnazzo (FF4DS)- Well, damage type overall does very bad against Lenus. Fendspell is here and there is only one solid physical fighter. So...take out Cagnazzo first. But when they face Lenus's MT smashing without any great physicals, she will wreck everyone else.
Team Super vs. Profound Darkness and Lamington- And this face is good physicals and MT magic. Can't see this really working.

Team Snowfire | Fang, Vanille, Snow (Firefly), Lightning (Leader), Hope
Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)
Team Snowfire vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Snowfire vs. Jack(WA:ACF) and Rudy(WAo1)
Team Snowfire vs. Opera, Ernest and Celene
Team Snowfire vs. Killey (S2), Lorelai (S5) and Pesmerga (S2)
Team Snowfire vs. Sothe, Karn, Edward(FF4) and Vyse- Lots of ST minus Killey, so the team passes easily.

Team Magic | Deis1, Rydia (Life)+Rosa,Hilda, Jane, Nall
Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)
So 2 revivers, Rydia can MT once.
Team Magic vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Magic vs. Jack(WA:ACF) and Rudy(WAo1)
Team Magic vs. Opera, Ernest and Celene
Team Magic vs. Killey (S2), Lorelai (S5) and Pesmerga (S2)-
Team Magic vs. Sothe, Karn, Edward(FF4) and Vyse- Abstaining here. Between the question mark of Deis and not having any idea with Sucker actually works on (Or who knows, may work on all ST and the fact that Jane fights so little means that ACF designers did not need to care) makes me lean to this. Suikoden fight is dangerous though if Furious Blow can wrap up multiple people (Since...it's Column, it will probably get two on average).

Team Tal | Celes (Speed?) Nel, Lyn, Yukiko, Cray
[Celes: Kirin]
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Tal vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4) and Gorudo
Team Tal vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Tal vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Tal vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and LORD OCHU (FFX)- Team Tal passes.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Team Super | Miakis, Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Brey (Status Symbol Law)
[Miakis: Mother Earth, Cyclone, Magic Absorb]
Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind
Team Super vs. Sasarai, Lich (FF1), Land Umber (SD3) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS) - This fight is fucking awful. I -guess- Miakis+Angelo+CRISTO should be able to kill Sasarai because his pdur is just that great, but Land Umber tosses out a lot of MT damage and Lich+Scarmy probably could contribute too. I'd hype healing OHKOing Scarmy, but none of these guys can target healing on foes. Some of the really dangerous tricks, like Scarm's counter status whoring, get walled by SSL, at least. But I keep wondering how long those resources will hold out.
Team Super vs. Barbariccia, S2 Luc, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji - Okay, here's an issue. Luc goes before the party and can wipe any one of Barbie's choosing besides Miakis (whee wind immunity), OHKO Brey and 2HKO the rest of the party when the only truly great MT healing comes from Miakis. So, how this goes: Barbie Tornados Solo, Luc blows him up and Brey and Miakis Shining Winds lest she wants the team to die (Canopy Defense won't slow them down enough and reviving Solo is -way- too slow, he'll get a turn after Barbie's second go and that's bad). So, Cristo and Angelo ID and hopefully manage to take out both Kanji and Luc. Or Angelo Bounces himself, probably better. I suspect Tiamat gets 2HKOed by Shining Wind too, which is -good-, so I'm guessing this will be enough even if someone else dies... but man. This fight is so tough and I'm not sure his team makes past it, and it definitely -won't- make past PD and Lamington. Yeah, just saying team aiel fails, just so much pressure coming from all sides.

Team Magic | Shania, Rydia (Life)+Rosa,Hilda, Jane, Nall
Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)
Team Magic vs. Flay and Nikki - Shania, eh? Not a bad choice. Jane Suckering this fight makes it -mostly- trivial (wouldn't see it affecting timed cards targetting, for instance, but the enemies are dying fast because :grandslam:). Hilda and Shania can take the opportunity to build some gauge too.
Team Magic vs. Jack(WA:ACF) and Rudy(WAo1) - Easy too.
Team Magic vs. Opera, Ernest and Celine - Yeah. The SO2 team sucks.
Team Magic vs. Killey (S2), Lorelai (S2) and Pesmerga (S2) - Okay! So, assuming Sucker works here: Furious Blow I think I'd see as effectively ST if it's a column (columns mean that two enemies are getting hit at -best- in-game. Not really worth hyping outside avoiding counters as far as crowd control goes). The L2 won't kill Shania in conjunction with Final Flame, her durability is fine. Problem here is really Rydia always getting OHKOed and Rosa's healing being suck right now (she's not turning into a good healer until at least Cure 3, which is floor -4-. And Life... is probably floor 3). And Shania doesn't get La Sirene until floor 3 to me. And Killey is faster than Slim Hilda by 0.03% or something, denying the team bumrushing Hilda/Shania combo shenanigans. :garcia: At least only Rydia dies from this rush and everybody is faster than Pesmerga. So, my kneejerk is Shania works on Lorelai, Curvy Hilda Grand Slams Killey and combos into Shania, Shania finishes off Lorelai and Rosa tries to patch things up as best as she can. At least Jane has good odds of surviving Pessy. Of course, Killey and Lorelai being out of the fray and Jane still living, they can just slowly build back up some HP in order to handle the next fight. If Sucker doesn't work? They lose to this floor, pretty much no questions asked: they just get picked apart by the losers next fight since Pes having targetting freedom means one of Hilda or Shania are dying in addition to the above. Both of them are just too important to lose here.
Team Magic vs. Sothe, Karn, Edward(FF4) and Vyse - Assuming FF4o Edward here, this fight just sucks. >_> Honestly, tend to view it this way and floor 4 Edward as 4a.

Team Tal | Celes (Speed?) Nel, Lyn, Yukiko, Cray
[Celes: Kirin]
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Tal vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4) and Gorudo
Team Tal vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Tal vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Tal vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and LORD OCHU (FFX)
Team Tal vs. Lich and Kraken - sure why not >_> SNOWE hits weakness on Yukiko (!!!!!) but who cares. Well okay Knight hits weakness on her too but I suppose Nel+Lyn handle him just fine.

[dude789]

I don't think the fight itself is the problem as much as it is Team Magic being fantastically slow and frail. Killey's not that hard to kill or status before he gets a turn and the speed range is wide enough that you can sneak in some healing between the turns and just tank the damage.

Edit: After reading arguments, I think Team Super fails unfortunately.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The speed range between S5 Lorelai and S2 Killey is kinda small, though, and having good MT healing this early in the game is often a bit much to ask from almost all teams. I guess that floor choice sez that you could pick the other floor if you don't have at least one PC that can off Killey straight off, since removing him from the equation makes that fight pretty much a doozy (Lorelai's truly good damage is easy to heal off due to ST and a more notable speed difference between her and Pessy. It just happens Furious Blow is good enough to sweep a fight after Explosion).

[Nephrite]

I will say, in light of the dicey (see what I did there) nature of our snake woman, I'm going to let Magic replace her with another 3.5. I will update when this is done.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Super fails, other teams pass.

Abstaining on Magic until he gets an updated team~ (For the record, I'd have probably given him a pass since I don't really see Deis1 as being 'bad' for five floors or anything like that. Bad for F1 at worst to me.)

[Nephrite]

In light of recent events, Magic's team is now Shania instead of Deis 1 and Lorelai has been replaced with S2 Lorelai.

[Dhyerwolf]

So there comes the question of does anyone know what exactly Sucker gets and if it works against all enemies (so status immune bosses, etc...)