Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 86

[Magic Fanatic]

So there comes the question of does anyone know what exactly Sucker gets and if it works against all enemies (so status immune bosses, etc...)

I didn't test it against a whole lot, but it hit Ragu O Ragula.  If an optional superboss didn't immune it, I'm not sure what could.  There's no special Provoke resistance in the game, the only resistance being Jane being lower-leveled and having Bad/Worst luck.

[Dhyerwolf]

Did it get all ST attacks?

[Magic Fanatic]

Did it get all ST attacks?

I'm not sure what exceptions there would be, but in a bit of light testing I did against three random enemies, Jane was attacked by all enemies in all five rounds she used it with both the enemy's basic physical and magical status attack.  In the one round she didn't use it, one enemy went on to attack Emma, so there are two things I can deduce from this:

1. It redirects all ST attacks to Jane, regardless of type (unless, as stated before, there's some exception I'm missing).
2. It is a one-round status.  It can, however, be cast each round with no effect proration.

[Dhyerwolf]

Then pass for Team Magic. Yeah, Jane will probably in the future needs a large reprice (Especially since her disadvantage was early lagging. That versus the ST floor is unbalanced). That said, Killey and S5 Lorelai alone was a lot of cooler than adding in Pesmerga, who already has the same damage type as basically everyone else on the floor.

[Nephrite]

I'll probably make the two of them the boss on the floor from here on out.

[Nephrite]

And as for Jane, if she's using Sucker then she isn't using Follow Me, so /shrug.

[Dhyerwolf]

Follow Me is F4, so there's no conflict for 2 floors (And there are plenty of fights F4 and beyond where Sucker is a much better choice. A lot of F5 can be ST on the Ceaseheal floor (The 1, 2, 4 and 5th fights are near complete ST), the ST floor, this floor, etc...As someone said, it is basically is a free Firefly rune.

[Nephrite]

It's a free Firefly rune on someone with barely any durability, unless I'm mistaken?

[Magic Fanatic]

It's a free Firefly rune on someone with barely any durability, unless I'm mistaken?

Jane has basically the same stat layout as WA3's Virginia.  Tissue paper to physicals, but gooooood luck hitting her with one that isn't ITE.  She also has above-average Magic Defense too, though her HP is still poor.

[Nephrite]

Either way, I don't see her as a lot different from Snow who is also a 2.0. If she ends up being way too amazing because of SUCKER HYPE then I will fix things.

[SnowFire]

She's got subpar durability in the DL, sure, but even "bad" durability is still a-OK in the Dungeon where things like buffs & team healing exist.  From the stat topic, endgame Jane has .85 PCHP, and .94 PCHP without Zed (Floors 1-6), and 63% evade.  Even if someone on the Dungeon team can ITE OHKO her, that person won't always go first, thus wasting the turns of the faster people who still didn't OHKO.  This is pretty awesome.  (Just the old Loreleai / Killey fight was a fight where she can only mitigate the damage by eating half of Lorelai's blast rather than cheese turn 1.)

As for her durability...  assuming that WAACF defense is subtractive (stat topic claims it usually is), Jane takes 51 damage more than average.  Off an HP average of 1467, that's either + 0.03 PCHP damage flat, or 109% normal damage if scaled percentage wise (~.43/.40).  That's annoying but not "tissue paper."  (Of course the non-subtraction formulas in ACF might punish Jane's bad defense more heavily, I have no idea.)

I might be willing to take the evade a little less seriously though since if ACF is like WA1o, 90% of everything in the game is ITE anyway, so evade hype is kind of meh.

Ninja edit: Snow is different because Snow's taunts only go off at average speed, enabling the faster Dungeon enemies to run riot.  Firefly is awesome because it's on instantly, and Jane's is awesome because she's fast and gets to use Sucker while it's still relevant.  Jane's hit rate is probably higher, too (since it's 90-100%, while the odds of Snow getting everyone vary and lag a bit on early floors when he only has 4 shots).  For sure, Snow's flexibility & durability are advantages Jane doesn't share, but eh, Jane's also got Follow Me hype later.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm not sure Sucker makes her go higher than a 2.5 or, pushing it, a 3.0, though. Since it's running off her poor MP pool and she has to reapply it every turn - and it also can miss - there are limits to how much it can make or break fights (and it's also GT, not full MT. THAT much I remember very clearly). Not to mention that, even if ACF enemies don't sport Taunt immunity, there -are- enemy casts with that specific immunity that Neph could tailor for adjustments (some XF bosses, some FFX bosses, etc.). Not to mention MT offense neener-neeners the option pretty much. I do agree she's better than a 2.0 with Sucker not... well, sucking, anyway.

Also, ACF evasion is -very- comprehensive and functional. It's modern-era WA evade, which pretty much rules (ITE exists, but is very rare. Look at NEB's topic and see how many bosses have an ITE tag attached to those physicals). Jane deserves the evasion hype she gets (honestly, her DL evade is lower than it often is in-game anyway, due to flatlining the Luck stat).

[Magic Fanatic]

I'm not sure Sucker makes her go higher than a 2.5 or, pushing it, a 3.0, though. Since it's running off her poor MP pool and she has to reapply it every turn - and it also can miss

To be fair, it's EXTREMELY unlikely that it will miss.  The formula for being affected by Sucker is essentially (Jane's Level/Enemy's Level)*100% assuming we're keeping Jane's Luck at Normal.  Worst Luck sees it as 70% of that equation, while Best is 120%.  Unless one scales enemy teams and bosses as being a higher level when encountered, then Sucker doesn't have much less than a 100% hit rate.

People I could see it missing on is the likes of Rika, due to winding up at a higher level in a level system that has different leveling rates for different PCs, or Ness, who just absorbs a lot of EXP on his own and winds up being 30 levels higher than everyone else (not that either of those NEED it, since they each have deadly moves they want to use that get around Sucker ANYWAY).

(and it's also GT, not full MT. THAT much I remember very clearly).

No, it's full MT.  Just tested it against 2x Nybbas+1x Raidbuster in Giant's Cradle.  Didn't even give me the option to select which group of enemies to target, and once the turns did roll around, they were all affected by Sucker.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

That's... very much not in line with my memories of both the move and how rare full MT against enemies is in ACF (Extension Material, for instance, is GT. Emma has a lot more MT, but that's also balanced by the very hefty costs on her moves. Jack often requires FP to even GT his stuff), but I'll chalk that up to my memory being faulty. It -has- been seven years since I played ACF.

[Talaysen]

Unless one scales enemy teams and bosses as being a higher level when encountered, then Sucker doesn't have much less than a 100% hit rate.

Well, some bosses legitimately have higher levels than the PCs they fight in-game.  I would carry that over, especially if level factors into things in their home game.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Average enemy levels are also relevant in that case and whatnot. Some games tend to have enemies at a higher level than PCs for no good reason.

[superaielman]

Fail for my team. I think even if I get to the final boss (possible) that PD is going to be putting an immense amount of pressure on. That's on top of being strapped for resources all floor.

[Magic Fanatic]

Super vs. Dungeon - I'm not going to argue if even he thinks he fails.
Snow, Magic, Tal vs. Dungeon - It's early floors, and after I stopped causing problems (somewhat), F2 got easier.