Parties & Rivals 2 - Semifinals

[SnowFire]

Results.  Team CT continues its bloody swathe through light, with Albel ruthlessly cutting down innocent piggie Luca Blight as he begged for mercy.

Godlike
Asellus, WhiteRose, Mesarthim, Meilin, Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3)
--
Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia 2)
Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier) vs. Belial (Wild Arms 4)

Heavy
Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) vs. Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) (7-3)
--
White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5) vs. The Dark One (Arc the Lad 2) (3-3) (Meeple tiebreak - "Arc the lad 2 loses on grounds that it's Arc the Lad 2")
Myria (Breath of Fire 3) vs. Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia) (4-2)

Middle
Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz) vs. Exor (Super Mario RPG) (4-2)
--
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Melfice (Grandia 2) (8-1)
Apocryapha (Radiant Historia) vs. Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World) (6-1)

Light
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) (7-1)
--
Edna (Shadow Hearts 3) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8) (8-1)
Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. Serge, Glenn, Irenes (Chrono Cross)

Bonus match
Jr., MOMO, Allen (Xenosaga III) vs. Odin, Freya (Valkyrie Profile 2)

They offended god, but god was a pussy anyway.

Well.  This is impressive.  The Suiko3 team has won out in Godlike, but furthermore they did so against tough competition in that the three teams left alive in the losing bracket all have a single loss to the True Rune users.  So there isn't really anyone left for them to match up against.  Rather than call Godlike off, Ameno & the Endless Frontier team get a temporary reprieve to provide some match material.  (They're still out, of course.)  Anyway, the doddering old wizard that Dorothy found was in fact a slave of the evil Cthulhu and ally to some kind of wicked witch-cultist.  For the bonus match, the WAXF crew already explores a number of ruins with weird mystic guardians in 'em, this one is just a wee bit scarier than usual.

Godlike
Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3) vs. Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier)
Belial (Wild Arms 4) vs. Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4)
Asellus, WhiteRose, Mesarthim, Meilin, Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia 2)

Heavy
Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) vs. Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia)
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5)

Middle
Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz) vs. Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World)
Exor (Super Mario RPG) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile)

Light
Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8)

Bonus match
Clarissa, Felius, Labrynthia, Levin, Ragnar, Alexia (Wild Arms XF) vs. Melc Crystal (Grandia 3) (rough Elf notes, since no stat topic)

[Cmdr_King]

Godlike
Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3) vs. Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier)- No vote.
Belial (Wild Arms 4) vs. Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4)- Straightforward.
Asellus, WhiteRose, Mesarthim, Meilin, Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia 2)- Right, LightSword shenanigans.

Heavy
Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) vs. Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia)- Ghaleon kinda has to pick between living (Rita rips off huge chunks of health thanks to hitting mdef) and taking out the revivers, thanks to their magic immunity.
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5)- *shrug*

Middle
Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz) vs. Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World)- My gut is that Oz battle system works against the team's favor when accurate Instant Death gets involved.  I guess a Dorothy/Strawman tag team might October dead before that happens, but that means they expose both members to a pretty nasty MT thrashing.
Exor (Super Mario RPG) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile)- Loki's got some good MT goin' on.

Light
Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics)- iunno.
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8)

[SnowFire]

Heavy
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5)
Team FFT eats Gil Toss, and Ninja can snipe one target of opportunity with this...  except not the most important one, since apparently FFT Shields can block Ninja throw meaning Fuma Shuriken might fail, but if it would be fatal to Orlandu, he can just Night Sword after the initiative Gil Toss.  I'm not sure anyone else is all that important, though.  Let's say Meliadoul bites it and doesn't block.  Orlandu's Night Sword + Mustadio/Agrias/Ramza should still be able to flatten both WM & Summoner, and Team FF5 is in deep against a full-health Orlandu with no more healing of their own.

Light
Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Fun fact: Checking the stat topic again, Zalera doesn't even have Stone (that's Velius).  He does have Stop, Paralysis, Slow, & Nightmare = maybe Sleep, maybe Death Sentence.  Unfortunately for Zalera, since SO3 doesn't have a separate Stop status, I'd let SO3's paralysis blocker get both Stop & Paralysis.  And I think I'd let SO3 characters tap themselves out of Sleep if they're willing to spend a turn on it a la FFT, so Nightmare hype is not that good to me either.  That leaves Slow + his spells that open him up to damage (but have a 71% of HP-1 or Frog'd Adray, which would be problematic for Team SO3).  Normally I'd vote team SO3 here, but they're not exactly great on blitzing, so maybe Zalera does have time to set up his tertiary status game.  Will await arguments.
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8)
Coinflip, they're both about equivalent sluggers to me.  Luca has a slight damage edge, Marcello has a slight durability edge.

Bonus match
Clarissa, Felius, Labrynthia, Levin, Ragnar, Alexia (Wild Arms XF) vs. Melc Crystal (Grandia 3)
3 parts = Clarissa & Levin are very, very busy and still can't entirely control the Crystal.  Still, it's 6 people against a boss meant for 4, so there's some blitzing potential... just...  so many horrible threats.  Fiora is bad news on anyone (Even if Felius can spend a turn to grab it on himself), and the only healing is Labby's revival, and Labrynthia is target #1 for the Crystal.  Anyway, I think things are moderately not horrible for the XFers against form 1, but once Melc switches to the bird and his speed goes crazy, Clarissa & Levin's turn denial game just explodes (even if UPPER HAND or whatever is now better) and Ragnar potentially loses his argument to knockback (although...  who knows, you can do air combos on anything in G3 I think, so maybe not?). 

[superaielman]

Godlike
Belial (Wild Arms 4) vs. Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4)- Ameno had a fair bit of MT and way more durability.

Heavy
Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) vs. Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia)- I don't think anyone besides Estelle can reive here. Fate Storm handles business.

Light
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8)

[Clear Tranquil]

Light
Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Yeah I doubt it. Depends entirely on speed interps/Power Dance > Faerie Friend respect. FFT has some statuses which -really- spoil SO3 - Sleep/Darkness - probably leaving them up the creek without the paddle. How fast is a Zalera anyway?~

I'm also pretty sure SO3 can't do jack about transform type statuses so if Zalera's pretty tanky (I've played FFT but I forgot) and can survive a full Power Dance > Faerie Friend, powerdanced Albel and powerdanced Adray chain then I think they are screwed.

For reference a full Short X > Faerie Friend > Faerie Friend 300% chain w/th Berserk is 131999 HP DM to a 67073 AVG, factor in Power Dance and a full Short X > Power Dance > Faerie Friend 300% chain is 230'998~ HP to 300'000~ HP DM (L1-L10 Power Dance) to the 67073 AVG~

Alternatively her next best damage is Dream Hammer which w/th a Dream Hammer > Power Dance (L10) > Dream Hammer > Power Dance > Dream Hammer to 300% chain w/th Berserk is about 120'000~ HP DMG~

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike

Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3) vs. Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier) - Team Suiko3 is brokenly good at blitzing. They sweep the universe before any of these guys sees a turn.
Belial (Wild Arms 4) vs. Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4) - Ameno's so MT-heavy Belial can't really handle it.
Asellus, WhiteRose, Mesarthim, Meilin, Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia 2) - Et goes first. I -think- she can kill Mesarthim by spamming Twinkle Moon and swapping Yun in, but... is it enough? Mei-ling+White Rose will deal a heavy dent on the team, can revive Mes at will... think the SaGa team is just better-suited for this fight than the opposition. The MK2 peeps can even immune fire, but this comes at heavy stat hits that risk getting them outpaced regardless. Not a good prospect.

Heavy
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5) - Eh, burping Elfboy. Agree with him on the idea of scaling generics and special characters separately.

Middle
Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz) vs. Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World) - Strawman goes first period and Lion is faster than half the enemy team (i.e. Dacre and October are highly liable to getting Wild Cry spammed if Tomato Bomb misses one of them). Tomato Bomb does horrible things to the Cthulhu entourage, and if it hits just Umi (odds being it'll do better than that), with Lion on the prowl, the team's in trouble, especially since Cthulhu -has- to make a choice between ruining Lion's shit or ruining Strawman's shit. If Umi isn't statused, she turns the match around with Keep Going MT bailout of doom, but her stats are just about the worst for resisting that crap. If Cthulhu runs the insanity sword, that's a lot of damage (mainly, Umi lets Cthulhuers fweem shit bad if she gets a turn), but hell. Once Confuse's up, Dorothy can go out to play and ruin everybody's shit even further with Dream Land and Melt Down spamming. This match actually can go both ways, since both teams are very good at ruining each other. Just... man, CSTW status vulnerability isn't fun.
Exor (Super Mario RPG) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile) - Loki MT 2HKOs non-heads, Indiscriminates. Don't think Exor has the durability to handle two Indiscs once the invincibility is down, and I believe Loki can juuuuuuuuust survive the turns he has to, since he goes first.

Light
Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Froggies.
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8) - More durable.

Clarissa, Felius, Labrynthia, Levin, Ragnar, Alexia (Wild Arms XF) vs. Melc Crystal (Grandia 3): Unscaled Melc Crystal against things that can be killed: The Movie.

[dude789]

Godlike
Belial (Wild Arms 4) vs. Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4)
Asellus, WhiteRose, Mesarthim, Meilin, Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia 2)

Heavy
Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) vs. Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia)
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5)

Middle
Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz) vs. Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World)
Exor (Super Mario RPG) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile)

Light
Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8)

Bonus match
Clarissa, Felius, Labrynthia, Levin, Ragnar, Alexia (Wild Arms XF) vs. Melc Crystal (Grandia 3) Melc Crystal is disgusting.

[Random Consonant]

Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5) - not now

Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz) vs. Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World) - Better at the status game.
Exor (Super Mario RPG) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike
Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3) vs. Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier): Haken outspeeds most of the real blitzing... but not Emily, right. Or The Shredding. ... or Thunder Storm. Okay then.
Asellus, WhiteRose, Mesarthim, Meilin, Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia 2): Two extra bodies on the field at any time, and my gut says the opponent team hates LightSword.

Heavy
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5): Ninja's throw is ITE (it's much stronger than FFT's version, which makes sense since it doesn't have the same benefit of long range) Samurai uses Gil Toss, Orlandu uses Night Sword to not die probably... Ninja kills Meliadoul, Ramza finishes off whoever Orlandu hit (Summoner probably, since Summoner does horrid things). Agrias and Mustadio are useless (FF5 blocks don't act) but we'll say they weaken Samurai so Orlandu can kill him. Except White Mage can stop that with Protect, so Samurai gets another turn and everyone on team FFT is dead except Cid. He + Agrias can kill one of Ninja or WM easily enough, but it has to be both, since Samurai + Ninja kill and a living WM can revive.

Middle
Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz) vs. Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World): Fast status, I buy Snow's argument here.
Exor (Super Mario RPG) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile): Unscale bosses make this kinda interesting since the OHKOs and such don't happen, but I think Snow's arguments work on a slower scale. MT 2HKO, then Indiscriminate away.

Light
Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics): I don't have great Zalera HP respect but it suffices here to turn people into frogs given that the team isn't good on blitzing.
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8): More damage and more durability, seems easy enough.

Clarissa, Felius, Labrynthia, Levin, Ragnar, Alexia (Wild Arms XF) vs. Melc Crystal (Grandia 3): Melc Crystals are badasses. Any cancel missing is terrible, and any uncancelled part gets to spam silence unless it's the main body, which can OHKO Clarissa with Hellmixer. They can also switch to bird and mock cancelling while gunning everyone down.

[MalcolmMasher]

Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5)

This is a danged good match. Allow me to give you the short version first, which is that Orlandu can solo anyone on Team FFV and the rest of Team FFT can get him there.

The FFT stat topic lists special character and generic averages, but I'm using the full cast average (which is... ~305 HP, ~9.6 Spd, ~182.5 Dmg), seeing as how generics exist and are ranked and whatnot. This is significant. In particular, it means that 2x Giltoss won't kill Cid/Agrias/Meliadoul, Giltoss+Throw won't kill Meliadoul (due to StQ Protect weakening Throw), and Meliadoul is slightly faster than Summoner.

Turn order is something like: Samurai, Orlandu, Ninja, Ramza, Mustadio, White Mage, Meliadoul, Summoner, Orlandu again, Agrias; Samurai, Ninja, Ramza, Mustadio, Orlandu 3, White Mage, Meliadoul, Summoner, Orlandu 4, Agrias.

Samurai goes first, uses Giltoss. Orlandu goes second and OHKOs Ninja. Ramza hits Summoner, Mustadio plinks Summoner, and now White Mage gets a turn. White Mage has options, but I don't think any of them work.
- If White Mage Curagas: Meliadoul wounds Summoner, Summoner calls Bahamut (killing Ramza, Mustadio, and Meliadoul). (If you take FFT Faith as Mdef, which FFV Bahamut largely ignores, then Meliadoul will survive. Doesn't matter, though.) Orlandu Night Swords Summoner for the kill, Agrias hits White Mage, Samurai uses Giltoss (killing Agrias), and then Orlandu drains WM for another kill and solos Samurai.
- If White Mage Images Summoner: Meliadoul Shellbusts Samurai, Summoner calls Bahamut (killing Ramza, Mustadio, and Meliadoul). Orlandu finishes Samurai off, Agrias hits White Mage, Orlandu drains White Mage for the kill and solos Summoner.
- If White Mage Arises Ninja: Meliadoul finishes Summoner, Orlandu one-shots Ninja again, Agrias wounds White Mage. Samurai uses Giltoss (killing Ramza and Mustadio). Orlandu drains White Mage for the kill. 3v1 now, and one of them's Orlandu.
- If White Mage Protects Samurai: Meliadoul finishes Summoner, Orlandu Shellbusts Samurai, and then the scenario plays out like Arise above. With Protect but no Crystal Armor, Samurai should take ~56% from physicals, which means that Night Sword drains ~188 HP while Giltoss only deals ~174 FFT damage.
- If White Mage Arises Samurai: As Protect, except that Orlandu 3 and Meliadoul 2 are Image-breaking whiffs, and then Orlandu cleanly outheals Giltoss.
- If White Mage Berserks Orlandu: FFV Berserk is unevadable and Cid really wants that Bracer, so this should probably hit. However, Berserk Orlandu still 2HKOs Samurai (at 40% accuracy, admittedly) and OHKOs mages, so this is no auto-win. He gets three turns before Giltoss clears the field, and as long as either of the first two connects with WM and at least one connects with Samurai, then Team FFT wins. (Remember that Agrias, Meliadoul, and Agrias again get to focus fire on Samurai in the interim.) That's... what, ~48% likely? Throw in the odds of Agrias landing a Holy Sword status, plus the nasty split between "Mustadio can plausibly Don't Act somebody on round one" and "Icewolf Bite is effectively perma-slow", and I'm willing to take that as a loss for Plan Berserk.

I think that's it. White Mage has other status options, and Samurai has Cleave, but Aegis Shields should keep them from being reliable tide-turners.

[Nephrite]

Question: What if White Mage Minis Orlandu? Or do you think Aegis Shield would stave that off?

[MalcolmMasher]

I do indeed. The stat topic gives Mini a base 90% hit rate, which after Aegis Shield and Cid's Faith winds up being like 49%. I'm not sure how accurate a status has to be for me to consider it "reliable", but 49% certainly isn't good enough.

That said, if Mini did hit, Team FFT would be in trouble. I see no reason why Cidwarfas could not continue to break full-sized equipment using Mighty Sword, but his healing is now negligible and he takes double damage from Gil Toss (because he went from the FFV's topic assumed 25 Defense to 0), so Samurai's next turn will flatten him alongside Ramza and Musty. If you see Hermes Sandals as being default, then Tinylandu breaks Samurai's, and Team FFT should eke out a win (Agrias+Ramza+Musty kill White Mage, Meliadoul Shellbusts Samurai, Gil Toss takes out Ramza/Musty/Thimblegod Cid and then Meliadoul and Agrias cut down a weakened de-armored half-speed Samurai.) If you do not? Team FFT hopes they get as lucky with Crush Punch as White Mage did with Mini.

[Pyro]

Godlike
Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3) vs. Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier)
Belial (Wild Arms 4) vs. Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4)
Asellus, WhiteRose, Mesarthim, Meilin, Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia 2): Takes too much to bring them down with the evade, and they have lots of revival and such.

Heavy
Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) vs. Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia): Ghaleon kills Estelle and then everyone else dies to ID.
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5): NEB's comments work.

Middle
Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz) vs. Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World): Too much status.
Exor (Super Mario RPG) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile)

Light
Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8): Better on damage/durability and possibly speed.

Bonus match
Clarissa, Felius, Labrynthia, Levin, Ragnar, Alexia (Wild Arms XF) vs. Melc Crystal (Grandia 3) (rough Elf notes, since no stat topic): Rar you have been eaten by a Shark. No fire resist kinda hurts. Melc Crystals aren't that durable though...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Unscaled, Melc Crystals kinda are durable enough to do really insane shit! But kinda besides the point.

[SnowFire]

Updating this tomorrow.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Any more takers on the FF5/FFT match?

Malcolm's analysis is interesting and I think I more or less agree with it given its assumptions, but those assumptions involving comparing the special characters to the generics which inflates them a good deal, more than is reasonable IMO (remember, generics don't exist as discrete entities, which means they don't get to benefit from initial equipment such as Excalibur, Bracer, Save the Queen, etc... strip the special characters of those and they lose even if scaled against generics). I do think FF5 has the match otherwise due to having revival and good MT damage each of two PCs.

[Nephrite]

Godlike
Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3) vs. Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier) - I let them initiative cast spells, which I think turns this in their favor. Just kidding, they can't do that. Maybe I was thinking of EF2.
Belial (Wild Arms 4) vs. Ameno-sagiri (Persona 4)
Asellus, WhiteRose, Mesarthim, Meilin, Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Razeluxe Meitzen, Etward Dysler, Lilianne Valendorf, Puniyo, Yun (Mana Khemia 2)

Heavy
Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) vs. Yuri, Karol, Rita, Estelle (Tales of Vesperia)
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. White Mage, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai (Final Fantasy 5) - I think I lean towards the FF5 fight, although this is extremely close.

Middle
Dorothy, Strawman, Lion and Tin Man (Wizard of Oz) vs. Cthulhu, Umi, Dacre, October (Cthulhu Saves The World)
Exor (Super Mario RPG) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile)

Light
Peppita, Albel, Adray (Star Ocean 3) vs. Zalera (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2) vs. Marcello (Dragon Quest 8)

Bonus match
Clarissa, Felius, Labrynthia, Levin, Ragnar, Alexia (Wild Arms XF) vs. Melc Crystal (Grandia 3)

[MalcolmMasher]

Generics can't claim get initial equipment, but they can still claim 'unique' equipment, like Bard and Dancer's rare-poach ultimate weapons (or FFV Samurai's initiative-giving Masamune.) That said, there's no question that the full-cast average benefits FFT's special characters more than the special-only average does. I do feel that scaling selected characters against a partial average sets a bad precedent, but that's not to say that I'd never do so; FE11, for example, is a game where even I would balk at including the generics within the PC averages.

[Dark Holy Elf]

It should be noted that the generic stat topic for FFT did not include class-unique equips, and quite a few would gain damage under such a view... Bard and Dancer as you mentioned, but also Samurai and Ninja (their unique equips are technically shared with Orlandu, but he'd never opt for them over Excalibur) and arguably Lancer (Javelin II is out due to being shared with Meliadoul and one-of-a-kind before overlevelled Catch, but Holy Lances and/or Dragon Whiskers would likely be legal). EDIT: Archer also has unique weapons. I don't really like that view much myself, but I have trouble putting my finger on why I feel this way about FFT while agreeing with you about FF5 (it's probably related to FF5's signature equips being needed to avoid saddling classes with world 2 weapons in many cases, and regardless they are gained in the main plot). Still, if I was going to scale special characters with unique weapons against generics, I'd probably include these.

In general I'm not fond of averages which compare things which play by different rules. A special character is one of a kind (fixed gender, fixed brave/faith, initial equipment in some cases), whereas a generic is more of a class template with none of these things (so its DL form is idealised with a certain gender, certain brave/faith, and generic equipment options). I'm more comfortable comparing them separately as such. I'd do the same for XF, and FE11-12 as you mentioned. I wouldn't include monsters in Brigandine's rune knight average either. And... somewhat pertinently, I wouldn't scale FF5 generics against FF5 PCs, who are either average-padding pure Freelancers or death machines wielding the power of a single crystal's set of jobs which obviously makes the individual generic jobs look bad, depending on views there.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike
Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3) vs. Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier) - I let them initiative cast spells, which I think turns this in their favor.

This view possibly makes sense for SRPG SRW, but not Endless Frontier. The game isn't phase-based and the characters clearly have to get their turns in order to cast spirits, see enemies faster than PCs being able to attack/kill/maim PCs before they can use anything.

[Nephrite]

Godlike
Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, Emily (Suikoden 3) vs. Haken Browning, Kaguya Nanbu, KOS-MOS, Xiaomu (SRWOG:Endless Frontier) - I let them initiative cast spells, which I think turns this in their favor.

This view possibly makes sense for SRPG SRW, but not Endless Frontier. The game isn't phase-based and the characters clearly have to get their turns in order to cast spirits, see enemies faster than PCs being able to attack/kill/maim PCs before they can use anything.

I totally forgot about that. I clearly need to replay EF.

[MalcolmMasher]

It should be noted that the generic stat topic for FFT did not include class-unique equips, and quite a few would gain damage under such a view...

The data listed for generics in the FFT stat topic actually does include the Ryozan Silk and Fairy Harp, which is why I brought them up, although all other generics are stuck with storebought gear. If there is a second stat topic which only includes generics, I cannot find it.

Comparing FF5 classes directly with FF5 PCs is certainly abhorrent. Chemist is a class, Knight is a class, Dancer is a class with a forced gender; functionally, Holy Knight [Agrias] is a class with a forced gender and Faith score (and its R/S/M abilities thrown out, although even with a shield Defend + Counter Tackle is not exactly a game breaking strategy.) Earth Jobs Galuf, however, is clearly not a class, but instead a bundle of classes and some fixed stat bonuses. It'd be like comparing a FFT class with "Unlocked Mime, All JP Unspent".

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hmm, you're right. The version of the stat topic I have sitting on my computer lacks them (which is what prompted my comment), but they're there in the on-site version, so guess someone talked me into adding them at some point years ago. The other weapons mentioned aren't there, for whatever reason... at the time I probably bought into the idea that Orlandu made the unique katanas/ninja swords illegal, and I guess Perseus Bow is possibly overall worse than having a shield despite the damage boost.