Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 92

[Nephrite]

"Ah, too bad. Perhaps it's finally time for some changes... Let's see what you can manage in the meantime! "


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.
Team Tal | Celes (Speed?) Nel, Lyn, Yukiko, Cray
[Celes: Kirin(M), Siren(M), Stray(M), Shoat(M), Zone Seeker((M), Seraphim(M), Fenrir(M), Gilgamesh(M), Phoenix] Celes' Espers
Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"
Team Tal vs. Vyse, Aika, Gilder and Fina
Team Tal vs. Jude, Cecilia (ACF), Brad Evans, Virigina, Dean and Clarissa
Team Tal vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Kurando, Anastasia and Blanca
Team Tal vs. Crono, Marle, Frog, Ayla, Robo and Lucca
Team Tal vs. FF1 Knight, Squall, Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna

Team Djinn | Lenneth, Ivan, Jane, Sacred Slayer, Marco (Life)
[Ivan: Gust & Granite, Wind Seer] Ivan's Djinni
Team Djinn vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Djinn vs. Jack(WA:ACF) and Rudy(WAo1)
Team Djinn vs. Opera, Ernest and Celene
Team Djinn vs. Colm, Locke, Zidane and Karn
Team Djinn vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5)

Team Andy | Souji, Chie, Yosuke, Naoto and Yukiko  Souji's Personas
Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)
Team Andy vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Andy vs. Jack(WA:ACF) and Rudy(WAo1)
Team Andy vs. Opera, Ernest and Celene
Team Andy vs. Colm, Locke, Zidane and Karn
Team Andy vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5)

Team CT | Peppita, Fang(Neo Speed), Vanille, Mesarthim, Priest
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team CT vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4), Gorudo and Boss Catiua (TOPSP)
Team CT vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team CT vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team CT vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and LORD OCHU (FFX)
Team CT vs. Lich and Kraken


Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, however the healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle.

Speed? - The effective speed of one character is set to 120% (1.2x) average speed. This number may be further increased by speed-increasind effects.

Neo Speed - The effective speed of one character is increased by 10% and increases 20% each time that character takes a turn, this effect caps at 200% base speed. The speed of this character cannot be increased in any way, nor can this character grant or be granted turns via any manner. If the character dies the speed is removed and cannot be regained.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Where's Tally-chu's Esper for this floor?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Meanwhile, I'll take a gander at what floor I can reasonably vote on (No Team CT because Fang+Vanille).

Team Andy | Souji, Chie, Yosuke, Naoto and Yukiko  Souji's Personas
Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)
Team Andy vs. Flay and Nikki - ID hype on Yu is a bust because his team-mates Die For Him. Not turn one and he can get Auto-Suku personas in theory here anyway! Otherwise, Nikki can 2HKO anyone here but OHKO nobody, so Mudoon sees play. Accurate ID is just amazing in the early floors.
Team Andy vs. Jack(WA:ACF) and Rudy(WAo1) - More singing praises to ID early.
Team Andy vs. Opera, Ernest and Celine - No ID, and if Celine starts hitting weakness with one of the fast spells, the party is DEAD. She just starts chainspamming different weaknesses with her MT (Explosion for Chie, Thundercloud for Yosuke, something for Yu)... but dunno, not so inclined to respect that. Guessing Yosuke/Yu/Naoto off her and then things can actually work smoothly.
Team Andy vs. Colm, Locke, Zidane and Karn - Tentarafoo off this collective status resistance is going to be ugly.
Team Andy vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5) - Dear god Andy thanks his lucky stars three people outpace Killey and Naoto has ID faster than him, because if he gets a turn, the party is -dead-. Lorelai can kill Yosuke, but not much else. Earlygame Persona 4 PCs in this setup are downright liabilities when weaknesses come into play, let alone piled up like that. If any fast multi-elemental mage shows up before floor 4, this party's as good as fried. I'm already being generous by saying Celine can't outspeed Andy party, because otherwise that'd be pretty much the most embarrassing loss since team Rozalia got reamed by floor 1.

[AndrewRogue]

The One More gods giveth and the One More gods taketh. >_>

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

In the Dungeon, it's particularly bad because it's very hard to hit weakness on -enemies- given floor design. On the other hand, the entire US East Coast can hit weakness on a full P4 team. The One More gods taketh and then taketh some more in this case.

[Nephrite]

Where's Tally-chu's Esper for this floor?

Durrr, it's Phoenix. Sorry about that.


EDIT: It's also funny to imagine how badly Andy gets reamed by the party with Nina1, 2 and 3. >_>

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I looked at the -other- floor 2. The Black Wizard brigade alone comes with a mop and a broom to clean up the smattering on the floor. And the Suikomage brigade. And the Lunar mage brigade. Jesus.

[Dhyerwolf]

Lemina may knock everyone minus Naoto down at once...

[SnowFire]

Team Tal | Celes (Speed?) Nel, Lyn, Yukiko, Cray
[Celes: Kirin(M), Siren(M), Stray(M), Shoat(M), Zone Seeker((M), Seraphim(M), Fenrir(M), Gilgamesh(M), Phoenix] Celes' Espers
Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"
Team Tal vs. Vyse, Aika, Gilder and Fina
Okay, in full defensive Skull Shield + Delta Shield setup, the SoA team gets 14 SP a turn then spends 7 SP.  Meanwhile uh Nel's Mirror Slice is like the only thing that does damage against the SoA team with that up (okay Celes can reduce herself to 5 HP and hope her sekrit limit attack kicks in but no.).  Fina & Gilder focus for 7 more SP while Nel beats up Aika and the rest of the team buffs.  Next turn, the SoA team has 21 SP to play with.  The Claudia costs 18 SP.  That's unfortunate, since Aika can afford to Delta Shield while Gilder executes the team with an MT OHKO.  Gilder is a tad fast so the only person who can possibly keep up is Celes and someone who got hasted by Celes...  So maybe Celes Hastes Lyn turn 1 -> Valor -> Lyn kills Gilder on turn 2 before The Claudia goes off?  Never mind, Celes didn't learn Haste in this setup.  I'm not really a fan of a team losing due to "not having enough abilities classed as special attacks" which I don't feel is something a team should really feel like they need to cover so I'm going to ignore this fight for now and pretend the team finds some way past it.

Team Tal vs. Jude, Cecilia (ACF), Brad Evans, Virigina, Dean and Clarissa
Clarissa is faster than Celes and goes on a Turn theft rampage.  If she nails both Celes & Yukiko there are problems (although maybe Yukiko's super evade helps out here?).  Flip side her support is kind of bad, but I dunno.  That's a lot of damage adding up and Jude can Assault Buster Cray for solid damage.  Still, both Lyn & Yukiko having evade helps out here, and both Yukiko & Celes can undo damage fast.  This is a hand-wavy fight by nature due to the variance of how effective Clarissa is (she misses on Celes and the WA team instantly loses, for example) so I'll move on but subtract some needed-good-luck points from Tal.

Team Tal vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Kurando, Anastasia and Blanca
Ummmm.  Yuri2 has MT status healing, right?  Blanca definitely does.  Kurnado has ST status healing, but he's also fast and might heal the status before Yuri gets a turn?  Flip side their main attack strategy involves damage which is a bad idea.  Best case is something like...  Celes nails Kurando & Blanca with Quick/Imp/Imp...  Yuri can either For Everyone or status heal.  Let's assume FE since Dark Seraphim is fast enough to outrace Celes next turn anyway.  FE turns off Lyn from doubling Anastasia too which is pretty crucial.  Anyway a rain of damage comes in to try and force Yukiko to revive Cray & Nel or something rather than blast everyone with fire.  Then Yuri goes and can either blast with deadly magic if Yukiko didn't heal or can status heal Kurando & Blanca, who got their buffs anyway despite being imps and are probably faster than Celes now, and can beatdown with Heavenquake or whatever.  Okay this goes south fast, but I'm not sure there's a better option - Celes can open Quick/Ice3/Ice3 but don't think that does enough damage with the FF6 MT penalty.  Quick/Imp/Valor might be better...  nail Kurnado, Blanca can heal it but now Lyn can really hurt Yuri if the turns line up right.  Maybe.

Still, this battle is tough enough, and with the questions from above, that I'm just going to vote a fail for Team Talaysen anyway.

Team Tal vs. Crono, Marle, Frog, Ayla, Robo and Lucca
Team Tal vs. FF1 Knight, Squall, Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Lemina may knock everyone minus Naoto down at once...

Omni-elemental in EBC meant nothing, I thought. Not that it's necessary: just shuffling elements is ridiculous -enough-, which means Mia alone brutalizes that fight by going first and going Flameria => Ice Wall => Flameria. Lemina mops up any losers remaining.

EDIT: Also, if Snowfire is correct and the SoA team can spam both Skull Shield and Delta Shield -every turn-, that fight is completely unbalanced and needs scrapped off the face of the earth. There just aren't enough special-typed physicals in the Dungeon to reliably pass through that kind of walling barrier, and requiring a setup -that- specific to get through a single fight in a floor is bad design.

[Nephrite]

I disagree. It isn't unreasonable to expect a team to have some sort of either A) Dispel B) Non-attack-physical damage C) buffing to get past it

[SnowFire]

While I philosophically agree with Jo'ou (I don't really see why Lyn or other FE characters should be horribly punished for something that's not a drawback in their home games, or someone like Raquel lightly punished by being forced to fall back on Comet Strike / Iron Divide), I disagree that the fight is THAT hard to beat vs. the full defense setup.  The full defense setup typically spoils mage-heavy teams, but if you can KO Aika of the below-average HP & Defense with special moves round 1, you have a solid shot to set up on round 2 since Defensive Team SoA is pretty much offenseless round 1.  If Lyn or Cray had any kind of wussy fallback special Team Tal could likely have managed it.  (While it's real shaky, I'd probably let Celes dispel the barriers for sanity's sake as well, if she'd learned Dispel, which she didn't.)

Re Neph, Buffing only goes so far, though.  The Claudia is a pretty solid OHKO and SoA techs most likely ignore evasion to most people's interps.  While Celes probably CAN live through it if she casts Protect on herself, and Yukiko arguably has some auto-revive going on, she's going to be at death's door and slain by Cupil or something anyway.  It needs to be some fairly badass buffing a la FF7 Cloud Barrier / All to get a team to live through it in decent shape.

Also as a total random sidenote, Team Tal totally smashes the Chrono Trigger fight for those that think he makes it there!  X-Zone and CT not blocking ID (unlike Shadow Hearts) and all.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Lemina's Catastrophe is completely, 100% non-elemental.

[Dhyerwolf]

Why does Nel just opt for less damage and just status Gilder out turn 1? This forces him to use Aura of Denial or else he will he frozen. Then Nel will just go for Fina, and Fina can only heal after saving SP for like 6 turns, and all of her allies all have to be the defensive every turn. I guess if you see Gilder as faster than Ice Daggers and having him launch The Claudia on turn 2 but...well, Nel is on the faster side of the SO 3 curve and certainly is effectively faster than Gilder ever is in game (as he is always slow in his party!). Of course...blah, Gilder has the status resistance, and if you take the 50% after all of Nel's chances, that won't be turn 1. Ugh. Yeah, this is rather offensive because SoA enemy phyiscals are horrible, so Skull Shield is worthless in game. Completely even forgot he had it.

[Nephrite]

For what it's worth, I'd see Lyn's Sol Katti or whatever it's called as something that'd be better than a normal physical for the purposes of beating Skull's Shield. Your mileage may vary.

[SnowFire]

I agree Skull Shield's translation is pretty offensive, but it's actually "fair" here since see whining about FF6GBA Valor in the previous week, Team Tal is playing on the same kind of disparity.  It's a buff that's balanced for FF6 basic physicals and still only "okay", but it has the flip side of this - it makes characters whose basic physical is their best move massively uber.

I do see Gilder as faster than average thanks to using all characters equally in the averages, for all that an average that weights Aika / Vyse / Fina higher is understandable and totally legit too.

Also in fairness, since I brought up Raquel as an example, there are bosses that punish Raquel's physicals and DO force her to drop back to Comet Strike due to a block rate vs. physicals, so it doesn't feel TOO horrible there.

[Dhyerwolf]

Oh, I technically see Gilder as above average speed too (Well, I do also think that if I went through again that Gilder/Drachma would probably have a level penalty at endgame though), but just making an argument for Nel being faster.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I disagree. It isn't unreasonable to expect a team to have some sort of either A) Dispel B) Non-attack-physical damage C) buffing to get past it

Delta Shield is supposed to be a Silent Lake-style effect, I thought (hits the whole field, affects all magic, positive and negative). In this case, the argument doesn't fly. Dispel doesn't work if you can't even -cast- it. Same applies for buffing. With absolutely no way to set up for actual offense or anything worth noting, way too damned many parties will just get pelted and slowly petrified by Fina if that is true. Having a fight that relies on holistic interpretations of what is a basic physical or not to not be a borderline impenetrable wall is not good.

[Nephrite]

No, Delta Shield just makes the enemy team immune to magic, not that you're unable to cast magic.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Okay, that's better. Not very fond of that still, but it's more acceptable. Maybe replacing Vyse with Enrique might make it better, though? Since then it's less about pure shutdown and turns more into a battle of attrition.

[Clear Tranquil]

Huh ... uhh wow is it just me or does -F1- actually look tough for my team >_>

(No Team CT because Fang+Vanille).

=(

Need to think/work this through. Will list available abilities later.

Edit -

Peppita -
Floor 1: Magic Hook, Charge, short O, counters, Critical Hit

Fang - 
F1 (COM/SAB/SEN) Attack, Ruin, Slow, Curse, Blitz, Adrenaline, Smite, Launch, Mediguard, Evade

Vanille -
F1 (SAB/MED/RAV)  Deshell, Deprotect, Cure, Aero, Fire, Water

Mesarthim -

Life Rain, Victory Rune?

Priest -

Healing, revival (Cure, Raise?)

Not confident in my Saga/FFT knowledge. Does Mesa start with Maelstorm/forgot?~

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Huh ... uhh wow is it just me or does -F1- actually look tough for my team >_>

Honestly, think it's just you. You have theoretically acceptable physical -and- magical offense and infinite healing and Mesarthim MT healing/revival hax+some of Rune Magic's skillset cheese, and she DOES start with Maelstrom, which, guess what, is at its best in the earlygame. It's hard to lose to floor 1, though some people -do- try. >_>

[Dhyerwolf]

Actually, it looks rough to me. Peppita has scaling issues, Vanille arguably starts with nothing (and certainly no damage) and Priest is still getting going. There are some enemies you have trouble killing (Like Galleon. FF Bosses playing defensive, etc...). Need more time to look over, but yeah, I thought there might be some problems.

[SnowFire]

I'd absolutely 100% let FF13 characters be taken at Chapter 3 for Floor 1, so Vanille can healbot it up.  Chapter 2 is pretty short anyway and I don't think anyone voted fail on my FF13 team for being skillsetless wonders on F1.

Anyway, pass to Team CT, sounds like Mesa isn't dead weight and Vanille's infinite healing ain't bad for getting past F1.  Fang is a threat from the start at least.

[Talaysen]

I thought the SoA crew could only use one shield at a time in-game?  That's what I remember anyway...