Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 96

[Nephrite]

"Well, I suppose small steps forward are all you can accomplish."


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.

Team Djinn | Lenneth, Ivan, Jane, Sacred Slayer, Marco (Life)
[Ivan: Granite, Gust, Zephyr, Breeze, Smog | Wind Seer] Ivan's Djinni
Floor 6a: Underachievers
Team Djinn vs. Hugo (RH) and Viola (RH)
Team Djinn vs. La-ilim (2) Crystal Skull and Undead Dragon (2) (G3)
Team Djinn vs. Augus, Habaruku, Aruhamel and Barubary (BoF2)
Team Djinn vs. Samille, El Jackson, Rupert (XF) and WA4 Tony
Team Djinn vs. Cid Raines (FF13) and Cid Bunansa (FF12)


Team Piggyman | Songstress (NeoSpeed), Eileen, Garnet, Marcus, FFT Priest, Nall
[Floor 4: Buff Enough]
*On this floor, all buffs & debuffs have their effects increased by 50%. Status is not included.
Team Piggyman vs. Alakazam, Mr. Mime and Charizard
Team Piggyman vs. Demi and Angelo
Team Piggyman vs. Yuna and Auron
Team Piggyman vs. Arnaud, Yulie, Lilka and Emma (AC:F)
Team Piggyman vs. Adachi, Alexia (XF) and Alma

Team MICHAEL | T260G, Mesarthim, Yulie (Body Charge), Raynie, Marco
[T260G: Type-6 Body [EngineerCar] [Kamikaze-Crush, CombatMastery, ShootingMastery]
[Floor 3b: Multiply]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team MICHAEL vs. Billy, Bart, Rico and Elly
Team MICHAEL vs. Raquel (WA4), Rudy (WA1), Brad (WA2) and RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (WAXF)
Team MICHAEL vs. Nina4, Yukari, FFT Chemist and Artea
Team MICHAEL vs. Spherimorph, Dalton, Galura (FF5) and Augst
Team MICHAEL vs. Fuse, Cecil (FF4 DS), Crono and Guv (No Call Team)

Team Pyro | Bartz, Hilda, Eiko, Jean, Marco (Body Charge)
[Bartz: Ninja (Monk)]
[Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)]
Team Pyro vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Pyro vs. Jack, Cecilia and Rudy(WA:ACF)
Team Pyro vs. Opera, Ernest, Leon Geeste and Celine
Team Pyro vs. Colm, Locke, Zidane and Karn
Team Pyro vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5)

Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, however the healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle.

Neo Speed - The effective speed of one character is increased by 10% and increases 20% each time that character takes a turn, this effect caps at 2x base speed. The speed of this character cannot be increased in any way, nor can this character grant or be granted turns via any manner. If the character dies the speed is removed and cannot be regained.

Body Charge - Increases damage and effective speed of a character by 1.3x and decreases damage to them to .7x.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Floor 6a works.

[Pyro]

Team Djinn | Lenneth, Ivan, Jane, Sacred Slayer, Marco (Life)
[Ivan: Granite, Gust, Zephyr, Breeze, Smog | Wind Seer] Ivan's Djinni
Floor 6a: Underachievers
Team Djinn vs. Hugo (RH) and Viola (RH): Follow Me -> 2x Lenneth turns, and an Ivan turn may kill Hugo. If not then Sacred Slayer pitches in another Lenneth turn. Viola gets solo'd by Lenneth with no resource consumption at that point.
Team Djinn vs. La-ilim (2) Crystal Skull and Undead Dragon (2) (G3): This could get nasty. Follow Me -> Blitz La-Ilim? That'd be 3x Lenneth turns and an Ivan turn... probably works and kills him.
Team Djinn vs. Augus, Habaruku, Aruhamel and Barubary (BoF2): I need to look these guys up.
Team Djinn vs. Samille, El Jackson, Rupert (XF) and WA4 Tony:
Team Djinn vs. Cid Raines (FF13) and Cid Bunansa (FF12): Not sure if the team has the resources to keep this up. Need to look at Jane and Sacred Slayer...


Team Piggyman | Songstress (NeoSpeed), Eileen, Garnet, Marcus, FFT Priest, Nall
[Floor 4: Buff Enough]
*On this floor, all buffs & debuffs have their effects increased by 50%. Status is not included.
Team Piggyman vs. Alakazam, Mr. Mime and Charizard: Alakazam OHKOs Songstress. Charizard... Growls Marcus to make him useless? Eileen makes Garnet invincible while Mr. Mime puts up a buff on Alakazam (Mdef buff now that Marcus has been hurt a bit. Garnet revives Songstress and Marcus taps on Alakazam. This could drain resources but the team should win.
Team Piggyman vs. Demi and Angelo: Songstress disables Angelo. Everyone else goes to town on Demi. Garnet can heal a bit.
Team Piggyman vs. Yuna and Auron: I think Songstress beats Yuna to turn 1? Auron can break someone's offense or magic but it won't be enough to matter once the Song Status comes out.
Team Piggyman vs. Arnaud, Yulie, Lilka and Emma (AC:F): More Song Status before any of them move.
Team Piggyman vs. Adachi, Alexia (XF) and Alma: If Alexia opens with Royal Cheer Songstress can put her out of commission. But that leaves Adachi to do his thing. Eileen can start piling on damage to Adachi while Marcus and Garnet help out. Mbarrier goes off but the next turn the team can finish Adachi before he can do the Heat Riser -> MT kill thing.

Team MICHAEL | T260G, Mesarthim, Yulie (Body Charge), Raynie, Marco
[T260G: Type-6 Body [EngineerCar] [Kamikaze-Crush, CombatMastery, ShootingMastery]
[Floor 3b: Multiply]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team MICHAEL vs. Billy, Bart, Rico and Elly
Team MICHAEL vs. Raquel (WA4), Rudy (WA1), Brad (WA2) and RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (WAXF)
Team MICHAEL vs. Nina4, Yukari, FFT Chemist and Artea
Team MICHAEL vs. Spherimorph, Dalton, Galura (FF5) and Augst
Team MICHAEL vs. Fuse, Cecil (FF4 DS), Crono and Guv (No Call Team)



Floor 2 means Skeans are available for FF5 Ninja, which is just *nuts* when they first unlock. Damn near the best damage you have, is MT, is only 200 GP (much less than your average encounter gives), is MT, and doesn't take MP of course. Shurikens are better ST damage but that costs 2500 GP for *one* and is ST. (for reference, Skeans are Stronger than Black Mage L2 Strengthend element spells)

In theory, Switching with Marco and utilizing Ninja could just ream the whole floor with very fast doubled up MT 2HKO, but I'll look at it for those that don't allow Switch (Trans-Turn is Floor 3ish, not FLoor 2).

Team Pyro | Bartz, Hilda, Eiko, Jean, Marco (Body Charge)
[Bartz: Ninja (Monk)]
[Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)]
Team Pyro vs. Flay and Nikki: Ninja and Marco and Jean kill Nikki, Flay does not stand a chance by himself.
Team Pyro vs. Jack, Cecilia and Rudy(WA:ACF): Bartz/Jean/Marco handle Jack and Ceci. Eiko and HIlda off Rudy.
Team Pyro vs. Opera, Ernest, Leon Geeste and Celine: Bartz/Marco/Jean/Hilda all go before them and I don't know if any survive. CLeanup isn't a problem if one or two do.
Team Pyro vs. Colm, Locke, Zidane and Karn: Locke and Karn may get turns off. Colm dies before he gets his turn via the MT damage/Hilda Combo (she probably has one now). Marco and Jean make sure Zidane is dead and even if he survives he probably can't do anything due to paralysis/charm status. Cleanup happens the second turn as needed.
Team Pyro vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5): : Killey dies before he gets a turn. Lorelai dies next. No problems.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Team Piggyman | Songstress (NeoSpeed), Eileen, Garnet, Marcus, FFT Priest, Nall
[Floor 4: Buff Enough]
*On this floor, all buffs & debuffs have their effects increased by 50%. Status is not included.
Team Piggyman vs. Alakazam, Mr. Mime and Charizard - Alakazam opens by OHKOing Songstress - any of his buffs are honestly useless here because everybody here sucks at not dying to Stop or Sleep. No biggie, though: Priest/Eileen/Marcus just pound on Alakazam afterwards with physicals, Garnet revives and then Songstress insanity resumes.
Team Piggyman vs. Demi and Angelo - The same basic strategy applies: Songstress cheeses Angelo's ass while Piggy's party slowly whittles Demi down with physicals. Unlike 'zam, Demi can't OHKO Songstress and actually -wants- to Barrier instead, since it forces the cheese hand. Meanwhile, NeoSpeed Songstress outspeeds Angelo, I think - if she doesn't, though, Eileen outspeeds at least Angelo (probably Demi too) and Copper Fleshes Songstress at worst. Then, slooooooooooooooowly ensure their way to victory, since as long as Songstress is playing a song, Angelo is completely helpless.
Team Piggyman vs. Yuna and Auron - Yuna is stuck on Songstress OHKOing duty here and I honestly want to say Eileen is faster than her first-turn at this point (no KRIN in the averages zomg). Copper Flesh, Stop dance, the end. Songstress status is just impossibly good to the point of trivializing the buffing shenanigans going on in this floor. Songstress broken, I missed you.
Team Piggyman vs. Arnaud, Yulie, Lilka and Emma (AC:F) - Stop dance. The end.
Team Piggyman vs. Adachi, Alexia (XF) and Alma - No Songstress status cheese! Too bad Garnet and Eileen 2HKO the entire setup (Garnet -even hits weakness on Alexia- with her current best damage in Leviathan. If you allow Alma equipment switching - I no longer do - she can wall Eileen, but is that enough? Priest and Marcus will focus fire on her instead if she does, and that's a hit on her HP -and- MP) and Adachi damage sucks, especially considering Alexia opening with Status Lock leads to everybody blowing up before Alma even gets halfway through her MBarrier/Ultima charge. So yeah, bust, Royal Cheer is what she wants and it isn't enough. EDIT: Okay FFX-2 Haste sucks, doesn't change pretty much anything. Alma charge times mean MBarrier isn't going to be of much help, especially being ST. Although, starting next floor, Eileen with Neo Speed may be an idea depending on setup. This floor, even though Piggy wins anyway, would've been easier with Neo Speed on Eileen rather than Songstress (I know I made that suggestion about swapping it to Songstress first! But man, this choice is hilariously context-dependent).

Team MICHAEL | T260G, Mesarthim, Yulie (Body Charge), Raynie, Marco
[T260G: Type-6 Body [EngineerCar] [Kamikaze-Crush, CombatMastery, ShootingMastery]
[Floor 3b: Multiply]
**All attacks, regardless of original ability, hit either all enemies or all allies for this floor.
Team MICHAEL vs. Billy, Bart, Rico and Elly - Quicken and Trans-turn available. Holy -crap-.
Team MICHAEL vs. Raquel (WA4), Rudy (WA1), Brad (WA2) and RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (WAXF) - See above. At worst, Raynie can chip-kill Raquel just fine.
Team MICHAEL vs. Nina4, Yukari, FFT Chemist and Artea - And again.
Team MICHAEL vs. Spherimorph, Dalton, Galura (FF5) and Augst - PROTECT HYPE
Team MICHAEL vs. Fuse, Cecil (FF4 DS), Crono and Guv (No Call Team) - And yet again. A team with subpar offense mangling the Multitarget floor is quite unintuitive, but MT Trans-turn is just that broken.

Team Pyro | Bartz, Hilda, Eiko, Jean, Marco (Body Charge)
[Bartz: Ninja (Monk)]
[Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)]
Team Pyro vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Pyro vs. Jack, Cecilia and Rudy(WA:ACF)
Team Pyro vs. Opera, Ernest, Leon Geeste and Celine
Team Pyro vs. Colm, Locke, Zidane and Karn
Team Pyro vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5) - Yeah.

[Random Consonant]

Neph and Pyro pass.

[Nephrite]

I will actually argue that Eileen is going to run out of Copper Flesh charges at some point. Copper Flesh is her level 3 skill and on floor 4 she should have around 3-4 charges of that...

Oh, and FFX-2 haste blows.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Prolly should have listed what I wanted sooner, but for Ivan's Djinni, I wanted:

Breeze - Jupiter - Resistances +40, MT
Zephyr - Jupiter - Agility +203, MT (100%)
Kite - Jupiter - Act twice next action
Squall - Jupiter - Paralysis ~90%
Smog - Jupiter/physical damage, inflicts Delusion ~100%
Gust - Jupiter/magic damage
Flash - Mars - Reduces damage taken by 90%

Wind Seer (Wind Seer, Magician, Mage, Magister) important skills: 0-6J
Sleep - 90% GT Sleep
Bind - 80% ST Silence
High Impact - GT ATK Buff
Resist - GT DEF Buff
Shine Plasma - MT Thunder damage
Destruct Ray - GT Thunder damage

[dude789]

Djinn fails. I think his team just ends up getting gassed since Jane, SS and Ivan all have pretty bad resource issues and they're going up a bunch of durable bosses (Ivan's damage spells right now take 10% of his endgame mp for averegish damage. )

Others should pass fairly easily.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Djinn | Lenneth, Ivan, Jane, Sacred Slayer, Marco (Life)
[Ivan: Granite, Gust, Zephyr, Breeze, Smog | Wind Seer] Ivan's Djinni
Floor 6a: Underachievers
Team Djinn vs. Hugo (RH) and Viola (RH)- Follow Me->triple Lenneth turn->enemies tricks are not very good here.
Team Djinn vs. La-ilim (2) Crystal Skull and Undead Dragon (2) (G3)- Follow Me->triple Lenneth turn->3 person fight where you only need to kill 1 may not be so great there.
Team Djinn vs. Augus, Habaruku, Aruhamel and Barubary (BoF2)- Follow Me->triple Lenneth turn-
Team Djinn vs. Samille, El Jackson, Rupert (XF) and WA4 Tony-Follow Me->triple Lenneth turn->everyone else is this match is some level of horrible.
Team Djinn vs. Cid Raines (FF13) and Cid Bunansa (FF12)- Fuck FF 13 Cid. Luckily, Follow Me->triple Lenneth turn is a great stagger equivalent, but on matches there I have to consider if Stagger kicks in time will be annoying.
Oh, hearing some worries about resource issues, but honestly, people really just need to use one move a match to basically get them under control. Can their resource woes be that bad? I certainly know SS certainly has the gas for 5 Turn Shifts.

Team Piggyman | Songstress (NeoSpeed), Eileen, Garnet, Marcus, FFT Priest, Nall
[Floor 4: Buff Enough]
*On this floor, all buffs & debuffs have their effects increased by 50%. Status is not included.
Right, Eileen has 6 Cfs at endgame. 3 now (maybe 4, but certainly no more seems reasonable)
Team Piggyman vs. Alakazam, Mr. Mime and Charizard- As said, Alakazam OHKOs Songstress, and if they get turns, MrMime buffs defense and Charizard ruins speed (or just kills Songstress if he has the opening). Eileen may need to blow 1 CF.
Team Piggyman vs. Demi and Angelo- Yeah, NS Songstress outspeeds Angelo
Team Piggyman vs. Yuna and Auron- 15% SD=Yuna goes before Eileen to me, so Yuna offs Songstress and Auron gets to break someone besides Eileen, who should evade him turn 1. But he can't really stop revival, so Garnet and Priest just trade to a degree.
Team Piggyman vs. Arnaud, Yulie, Lilka and Emma (AC:F)- Yeah, easy.
Team Piggyman vs. Adachi, Alexia (XF) and Alma- Yeah, Team wins the floor.

[SnowFire]

Djinn should cruise through the first 4 fights without expending that much in the way of resources, it's the last fight that's trouble.  Not so inclined to nerf bosses HP as harshly for sanity's sake in the Dungeon as in duels.  Taken literally, FF12 Cid has 4.4 PCHP, and Famfrit has like 8 PCHP...   but Lenneth can literally solo his bad damage, so whatever, leave FF12 Cid for last and if everyone else dies while Lenneth spams heals on herself whatever.  Elf lists FF13 Cid as ~5 PCHP with staggers baked in but no SYN/SAB, but I don't think that's including the damage-halving Cid gets for the back half of his HP, so it's more like 7.5 PCHP.  For extra fun, FF12 Cid can Haste/Protect/Shell FF13 Cid.  That bad damage, though, means that I think Lenneth just friggin' keeps up with Haste'd Cids, maybe with Marco tossing in occasional emergency healing, until FF13 Cid hits his limit phase...  and at that point, Sacred Slayer dumps the rest of their MP, Jane starts spamming Sucker (I don't think Cid ignores evasion?  FF13 evasion barely happens anyway short of bizzaro Sentinel Lightning or the like, hard to tell.), and Lenneth tries to grind through Cid ASAP.  Even then, Cid doesn't have a OHKO on Lenneth, so think Djinn wins anyway.  Pass.

Team Piggyman passes, I"ll buy the Songstress hype.

Team Pyro gets a pass as well if Skeans really are that badass.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I will actually argue that Eileen is going to run out of Copper Flesh charges at some point. Copper Flesh is her level 3 skill and on floor 4 she should have around 3-4 charges of that...

Eileen needs two-three charges at most throughout the floor, since she only needs to cast it once on one person per fight to instill control.

EDIT: I just remembered Flying is weak to Rock! Eileen kinda OHKOs Charizard with EQ and that's that, then (S1 EQ is pretty clearly rock-type, it even -hits and strikes weaknesses on flying enemies- in-game. You know, the same ones who immune Voice of Earth), sorta mitigating the dangers on that first fight pretty much irrevocably.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Oh, hearing some worries about resource issues, but honestly, people really just need to use one move a match to basically get them under control. Can their resource woes be that bad? I certainly know SS certainly has the gas for 5 Turn Shifts.

People seem to run under the assumption that Sacred Slayer should run out of gas too fast, but that only happens if she's downright spamming Turn Shift every turn like people do in-game with multiple SS OC PCs. Dungeon fights very rarely run for anywhere near as long as XF battles and I pretty much agree with you: with a well-built team, Sacred Slayer almost never needs more than two Turn Shifts a fight to rip momentum away from the opposition. Heck, most of the time, one is the magic number. No reason to assume the player team won't settle for efficiency whenever possible, anyway.

[Dark Holy Elf]

(I don't think Cid ignores evasion?  FF13 evasion barely happens anyway short of bizzaro Sentinel Lightning or the like, hard to tell.)

He does not, though of course he has magic, and he tends not to lose that much damage to use it. (489 vs. 655 in first stage... in the second he loses considerably more ST, but Seraphic Ray and status moves are great options for MT anyway.)

And for the record, yes, my HP figures don't include the defence/magic defence Cid gains at low HP, partially because both in-game and in-DL there are things which ignore said defences, so people can just factor them in when appropriate.

[ThePiggyman]

EDIT: I just remembered Flying is weak to Rock! Eileen kinda OHKOs Charizard with EQ and that's that, then (S1 EQ is pretty clearly rock-type, it even -hits and strikes weaknesses on flying enemies- in-game. You know, the same ones who immune Voice of Earth), sorta mitigating the dangers on that first fight pretty much irrevocably.

Oh man, now that gave me a good laugh. Earthquake is pretty sexy.
I think my team passes, for aforementioned reasons. If you don't respect FF10-2 Haste for the last fight, Songstress can also do Carnival Cancan, which doubles everyone max HP.

Team Pyro almost certainly passes, too. I do remember Skeans being solid damage.

Have to abstain on the other two teams.

[superaielman]

Team Piggy passes in a laugher, Team Pyro passes. Abstain on Djinn's for now. Neph passes as well.

[Pyro]

Actually I think Djinn's team may have a serious problem.

F6 is probably before Lenneth joins in VP2 (final dungeon aquisition). This would mean she will not have her GR and will in fact be at her worst damage (probably lower than Alicia at base?) due to relying on a midgame weapon.

Might Reinforce may help but this would effectively leave Ivan as the source of offense and that would be resource intensive...

Thoughts?


T

[SnowFire]

As far as I know, only Orlandu has custom rules like that.  Just scale Lenneth to her time of joining for all early floors.

[Pyro]

I thought so too and had been voting as such, but had gotten mixed signals regarding that just recently.

I guess I will continue voting on Lenneth scaled as a badass throughout unless Neph says otherwise. Which means Djinn should smash.

As a reminder, Sacred Slayer does not grant turns, she trades them. This is more MP intensive as she has to keep using it to give turns kind of like a (better because it doubles her rfx) RH switch command.

[Nephrite]

If Lenneth does not start with the Glance Reviver when you get her in-game, there is absolutely no reason to scale her with it on the lower floors.

In fact, even if she -does- there isn't much of a reason to, since Orlandu follows a strict set of rules on equipment, as should anyone else.

[dude789]

If Lenneth does not start with the Glance Reviver when you get her in-game, there is absolutely no reason to scale her with it on the lower floors.

In fact, even if she -does- there isn't much of a reason to, since Orlandu follows a strict set of rules on equipment, as should anyone else.

The easiest way to handle things for late joining characters is to just compare them to when they join and keep them relatively static until they reach the point where they join and people should be allowed to vote that way if they so choose. Orlandu should be an exception because FFT characters scale back easily and Excalibur makes him stupid overpowered forever. If you force late joining characters to use early game equipment that makes things way to complicated and leads to situations where some characters might not even have equipment that they can use before they join. Take Ursula for example, guns don't start showing up until she joins about halfway through the game. It would be dumb to make it so that she's not allowed to use any weapon before floor 3 or 4. It would also be just as dumb to compare her 40 powered MT shotgun with the 5 power weapons Nina and Ryu start out with on floor 1. The simplest and best way to scale her is just to scale her against the party when she joins. Lenneth should be the same way. It means that Lenneth has good damage throughout the dungeon, but Lenneth is still fair as a 3.0 because she's average speed and is mostly ST. 

[Magic Fanatic]

Didn't we have the same problem with Deis2 not too long ago, actually?

[dude789]

Didn't we have the same problem with Deis2 not too long ago, actually?

True, although I think the situation with Deis was more due to her skillset (Flame and Sonic Boom are disgusting overpowered on floor one and two if compared to other characters at the time) than equipment. 

Edit: Actually, I haven't gotten that far in VP2, if Lenneth can't use her Glance Reiver, when does her second best option become available? Forcing her to use a floor 3 or 4 weapon on floor 6 seems especially arbitrary when her joining with her endgame weapon is right around the corner.

[SnowFire]

If Lenneth does not start with the Glance Reviver when you get her in-game, there is absolutely no reason to scale her with it on the lower floors.

She starts with the Glance Reviver in-game.

[SnowFire]

Also Pyro, re Djinn and resources, I'm just going to quote Jo'ou.

People seem to run under the assumption that Sacred Slayer should run out of gas too fast, but that only happens if she's downright spamming Turn Shift every turn like people do in-game with multiple SS OC PCs. Dungeon fights very rarely run for anywhere near as long as XF battles and I pretty much agree with you: with a well-built team, Sacred Slayer almost never needs more than two Turn Shifts a fight to rip momentum away from the opposition. Heck, most of the time, one is the magic number. No reason to assume the player team won't settle for efficiency whenever possible, anyway.

Sure if SS is stupidly blowing MP after the earlier fights are in hand, they can run out of gas fast, but that totally isn't necessary.

[SnowFire]

Also, on a general philosophical note, while it's cool that Orlandu CAN be back-scaled rather easily, I'd rather remove the hack on Orlandu (and raise the price if necessary) than attempt to impose it everywhere else.  Figuring out hypothetical early-game stats for characters who don't exist then?  Meh.  (The Dungeon already does this a bit for when it's sane to note the party competition - e.g. if you want to get fancy, hypothetical F2 Magus shouldn't have to worry about Ayla in the averages, even if Ayla is around when Magus himself joins.  But attempting to guess the power of early-game non-existent Magus equipment?  No.)