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Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97  (Read 6861 times)

SnowFire

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2012, 09:59:01 PM »
Believe Split Infinity mentions the condition in the FAQ, but I don't believe so, unless you're Oblivion Knight.  (Margulis's Medica, however, is....   but it requires 2 Shadows to be out, which is usually a Bad Idea in the Dungeon.)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2012, 10:04:58 PM »
OPB as far as I'm concerned. I spent -hours- farming Awakenings on her and I've only saw her use it once.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
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Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2012, 10:50:18 PM »
Second question, is Blood Oath something that could theoretically be cast on someone else?

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2012, 11:03:33 PM »
Uhhhh I'm not sure I'd see it doing -anything- on non-XS2 people, and, animation-wise, it wouldn't make a -ton- of sense for it to be targettable.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2012, 11:16:33 PM »
Okay, I figured as much but wasn't sure if it was something other bosses might have had.

SnowFire

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2012, 11:17:17 PM »
Even if it was, I don't think Orgulla really has time.  Here's the Dungeon Team's turn 1 plan:
* Lamington: Serve as a meat shield on the Follow Me turn, die.
* PD1: Shadowbreath Jane (since it sounds like it beats Jane's evade).
* Orgulla: Quick self, Quick PD, Scattershot (which either completes or sets-up a Shadowbreath kill.)

Note that Orgulla wasn't Quick'd at the start of the turn and she only gets her triples when Quick'd, so it's more like she's already cutting into her Turn 2 actions.  Okay, let's say Orgulla wants to use Pound of Flesh or Blood Oath.  Her next turn 2 play must then be Manes Awakens.  But Manes is slower (even despite the Quick), so she only gets to use Pound of Flesh / Blood Oath / etc. on around the turn 2- turn 3 border.  Then sometime late turn 3, Manes-Orgulla gets to go again...  if Blood Oath is seen as targetable (flavor-wise it really does seem self-only), then sure PD1 can revive-lock Jane, but Orgulla then needs to spend another turn on Pound of Flesh, and then early turn 4 she can actually smash Lenneth in some icy supercombo with some damage to spare on Ivan or something.  But...  turn 4 is just too late, she should already be dead by then even if Lenneth cuts her offense a bit to Heal Jane.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2012, 11:24:42 PM »
Ah, I didn't notice Manes was that much slower.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2012, 11:34:17 PM »
It's part of the whole fight dynamic. Were Manes -anywhere near- as fast as Eryu, the fight would get absolutely nuts real fast.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2012, 01:23:51 AM »
Quote from: NEB
Belated, to Pyro: are you sure Samurai's ID move has a charge time? Neither the stat topic nor the BMG mention one, but I've never used it myself (haha setting a lategame-only command just for an inferior version of Odin). Also, a reminder is in order that the move probably isn't turn 1 against any given target, for most people? 85% base hit rate gets probably becomes something more like 60%, assuming you take the average of the last two dungeons' enemies, or closer to 50% if you just go by the last dungeon.

Yeah, it has a definite charge time associated with it much like Monk's Buildup and so on. Are you assuming endgame enemy MEvade for all spells, or just the ones that you only get lategame (and so only really hit that level of MBlock on enemies that matter)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2012, 01:33:32 AM »
I'm not really sure what you mean by that question? It's standard practice to scale all abilities of endgame PCs (which dungeon enemies are) against endgame enemies.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2012, 02:26:36 AM »
Have to look at the fight myself, but not exactly sure that Lamington is just auto failing to the first turn rush anyways since it's mainly Lenneth damage and his defensive stats are DEF and EVA (The eva is somewhat ignorable, although arguably should at least get a few attacks. Also don't remember if missing in VP 2 meant not building up the gauge. If so, missing a few attacks could be missing a SC), but the DEF is very solid.
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hinode

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2012, 03:25:23 AM »
Pyro's right about the charge time on Samurai ID, it's the first thing you notice when you actually try the thing out in-game.

Aside from enemy MEvade, note that (attacker level - defender level) is a direct modifier in magic hit rate in FF5. Most randoms in the Cleft of Dimensions are level 50+ IIRC, so if you're going to judge status accuracy based on that dungeon alone there'll be a penalty to every status move beyond just the enemy's MEvade stat. The only time I've ever had real success with status magic in the final dungeon was on a Red Mage SSCC where I was obviously overlevelled relative to a normal game (finished around L61, IIRC), and even there it was largely ineffective when I hit the Void section.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2012, 04:00:47 AM »
Well that definitely takes Samurai's duelling ability down a peg or two, turn 2 ID with a charge turn (even half a turn) is pretty wretched in Heavy. Still belongs in the division of course.

re status in FF5 final dungeon, Odin's still effective, precisely because it ignores MEvade. (Still checks level, but level alone doesn't lower its rate that much, and Odin still does decent ST damage if it fails to ID, so it's workable.)

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2012, 09:15:31 AM »
Oh yeah, Ivan's has about -10% to all stats except for -20% HP due to the fact that he has chosen not to set Djinn in a way to maximize stats (aka: not 6 Wind Djinn)
[Ivan: Gust, Zephyr, Breeze, Smog, Squall, Flash and Hail | Wind Mage] Ivan's Djinni
Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind
Team Djinn vs. Sasarai, Samurai (FF5), Hellion, Golem (Pokemon) and Scarmiglione-Z- (FF4DS)- Samurai can now unleash about 50% MT damage. Turn barrage certainly says goodbye to Sasarai and Hellion and one other (Samurai has the dangerous MT so sure). Ivan statuses Golem, and they can heal up probably without SS or Marco needing to use any more MP.

Team Djinn vs. Barbariccia, Crono, Zalbard (ShF2), Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji- The barrage will be aimed at Crono, then Zalbard, then Barby. Tiamat and Kanji should live to get turns, but not dangerous.

Team Djinn vs. Kary, Cameela (ShF2), Yukiko, Ho-oh and Alen (S1)- Ice damage helps, although Yukiko may evade it. Turn order is Jane->Ivan->Lenneth or Marco->SS. Ivan goes first of the attackers (I'm assuming that how Follow Me would speed people up?), so not giving a lot of credence of Ice knockdown turn 1 v Yukiko evade. I would say second hit on averages gets her though, so Lenneth gets her (along with ). Definitely not dead is Kary of the 3.5 Pdur. Someone else will be take too and they can kill Marco. But wait, I guess Lenneth can hit Yukiko but needs to aim two separate attacks at her to kill her. Hmm. I guess that Ivan probably just uses Flash here perhaps, then Lenneth kills Alen and Ho'oh. Yukiko will revive Ho'oh and Kary and Cameela can combine to off Marco or Jane (so Ivan will open with 90% damage reduction). Kary instead will status Jane to keep Follow Me down, but the team should be fine (May need 2 Turn Shifts though). I guess this is the first match where a headache of "What speed does Turn Shifting SS turns come at post Follow Me comes up.

Team Djinn vs. Ice Queen Avril, Virgil, Lenus and Geshp (ShF2)- I assume that this is XS 1 Virgil. So, there is at least a bit of durability in the mix (about 2 PC HP on Lenus and 3 on IQA, Virgil has the form chain). Anyways, IQA portals out Jane and because I don't see Follow up actually affecting speed, she would then portal out Lenneth. Maybe they should get IQA first. Lenneth can do it assuming no Blocker (certainly needs all 3 attacks though). Ivan can use the 90% damage cut. Virgil can use Bind Force (uh...it probably would eliminate one of Lenneth's attacks to me, so she probably can't PWS now. It's...something), other can whatever. Next round can get Geshp. The limit fighters are next. Lenus immediately gets a turn on 60% HP, Virgil at about half HP transforms and then is immune to melee physicals (so Lenneth can no longer even touch him). If the team wants to stall around, they can have Ivan use a few Djinni buffs (which I'm assuming don't wear off) to raise Mdef and speed (Although if Jane is spamming Follow Me, speed is not relevant). Upon 60% HP, Lenus will assuredly kill Lenneth (who is sporting -40% to Dark). So, need to go one at a time. I guess Virgil should be first (or else, Ether Bomb->MT Lenus->hahaha).

Now...this team arguably sucks all around at damaging Virgil (GS Wind and Thunder are the same element, XS has no Wind). The damage can be...Jane physicals, the Ice Summon, and badly cut Wind/Thunder Spells (which are not MP efficient). Flat out thinking that this has issues. Enemies are not great on damage, but Virgil can do damage and status (not good, but forces on the turn shifters to heal occasionally; assuming Lenneth spends turns getting the status) off that speed (if he goes right after a Follow Me turn, he will basically be doubling. When Virgil starts getting MT damage and builds up boosts and counter boosts, things can get dicey quickly. Could get through with just a large MP drain. If Virgil is PC HP and constantly statusing Jane so only Ivan can attack, he needs like 10 spells to get Virgil down; that's pretty much Ivan's MP pool).

Team Djinn vs. Profound Darkness, Orgulla (XS2) and Lamington- So if the team does get here, first target people note is Lamington. As noted, he cuts 50% of physicals to me and has some evade them at least can hamper Lenneth a little (and maybe also counters? PWSes may get around those though. Evade is doubly problematic if it means Lenneth does not build energy, but can't remember there), so needs a bit of time to mop him up. He has a bit over 2 PC HP to me, so maybe 4.5 PDur. Ivan opens with the 90% damage cut as usual. I think that it may take like Lenneth turns to get Lammy out of the way. Kind of wondering that this point how SS's MP is holding up (Ivan's may not be great either depending). Orgulla has that large HP pool (and cuts Lenneth's damage by 25%. Weak to a lot of Ivan's though!). Then PD has that large HP pool. It's just a lot of pressure to face as MP pressures may mount. Orgulla MT+PD can take out all but Lenneth certainly (and if Lenneth is not being healed, a bit of extra will do it). Tentative fail. Three people who can already used a hefty chunk of MP with lowish MP pools versus two slog fights that need a lot of specific ordering. I kind of don't know. Jane is a still a bit question mark/headache.
...into the nightfall.

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2012, 01:23:06 PM »
Votes still stand despite changes to the floors. Djinn's team is really bad at taking out Vergil's second form.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2012, 04:32:39 PM »
It's XS3 Virgil. The limit boss/icy one.

EDIT: I am almost 100% sure you don't get any energy for PWS if your attack is dodged in VP2.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 04:34:52 PM by Nephrite »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2012, 04:42:30 PM »
That's true. If one attack whiffs, you don't get the SC energy for it. This can be particularly problematic if it's a smashing/OTG attack, since those give you extra AP for strings (ATTACKS IN THE STRING CAN MISS EVEN AFTER THE ENEMY'S BEEN HIT AW YEAH. Happens crazy rarely, but it's possible, even discounting whiffing on a mistimed strike).
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
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SnowFire

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2012, 04:56:10 PM »
Dhyer: I can't say for sure since you respect boss HP a lot more than me, but if we presume super PDEF tank Lamington, then Djinn should still be able to swat him turn 1.  Any defensive move of Ivan's is worse than just killing Lamington, so hit him with Follow Me -> 3x Ivan turns + 1x Lenneth turn.  I guess if you see Lamington as 2 PCHP (which seems high) he MIGHT still survive given sufficient Ivan damage disrespect, but that seems Djinn's better argument in such a case.

Also re Follow Me "not affecting speed" - it's got initiative, so it's entirely down to your infinite TB speed respect.

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2012, 07:02:26 PM »
Lamington probably only needs around 1.5 PDur to survive Djinn's entire offensive. Ivan's damage is very average and after Lamington's Mdef only does about 1 PCHP. Lenneth of course has issues with the evasion/PDef combination and he probably dodges enough to prevent a PWS.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2012, 07:10:28 PM »
You know, Lenneth turns x3 at base would clock in at something like over 3x PC HP before evasion after factoring in Might Reinforce. She nearly OHKOs average as it stands. Granted, what I heard from Lamington defense is that he'd be more like 4x or 5x PC HP for pdur...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 07:58:49 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2012, 07:33:48 PM »
Getting past Pdef seems like it would be easy when you consider that Lenneth can Might Reinforce and attack in one turn, and then her two subsequent gifted turns are already boosted.

Also...
Oh yeah, Ivan's has about -10% to all stats except for -20% HP due to the fact that he has chosen not to set Djinn in a way to maximize stats (aka: not 6 Wind Djinn)
[Ivan: Gust, Zephyr, Breeze, Smog, Squall, Flash and Hail | Wind Mage] Ivan's Djinni

I clearly have 6 Wind Djinni. The extra Djinn is Hail for the Water damage against Yukiko.


[quote[Team Djinn vs. Kary, Cameela (ShF2), Yukiko, Ho-oh and Alen (S1)- Ice damage helps, although Yukiko may evade it. Turn order is Jane->Ivan->Lenneth or Marco->SS. Ivan goes first of the attackers (I'm assuming that how Follow Me would speed people up?), so not giving a lot of credence of Ice knockdown turn 1 v Yukiko evade.[/quote]
If the initial Release spell is evadable (possible, though I don't think GS magic was subject to evade), then perhaps you'd give more respect if Ivan went into this battle with Hail released so he could use the Ice -Summon- instead? The Summon would be a proper full MT attack.


Quote
Team Djinn vs. Ice Queen Avril, Virgil, Lenus and Geshp (ShF2)- I assume that this is XS 1 Virgil.
Luckily, this is not XS1 Virgil...

« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 07:49:10 PM by DjinnAndTonic »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2012, 08:02:36 PM »
*Shakes fist at Nephrite*

*Shakes fist at Djinn* Flash is fire.

Let's say abstain on Djinn.
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2012, 08:07:02 PM »
What did *I* do?!

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2012, 08:08:48 PM »
Oh snap, Flash is on there. My setup for this floor was -supposed- to be:
Breeze - Jupiter - Resistances +40, MT
Zephyr - Jupiter - Agility +203, MT (100%)
Kite - Jupiter - Act twice next action
Squall - Jupiter - Paralysis ~90%
Smog - Jupiter/physical damage, inflicts Delusion ~100%
Gust - Jupiter/magic damage
Hail - Mercury/magic damage + Def-50%

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 97
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2012, 08:25:02 PM »
Fixed. Sorry about that, I got Kite and Hail confused apparently.