Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~

[SnowFire]

If Haze is a djinn release, then while it might save Team Djinn from Slowga for a turn, it won't save him on later turns in the "kill Gilder turn 1" strategy, and the Dungeon team is guaranteed to get those later turns thanks to Great Gospel.  Which also provides status immunity to cover for the lack of Gilder.

[Dhyerwolf]

Oh, one other thing for my team, Yulie has Turn Shift too, which means most fights start with T260G probably getting two actions. Just throwing it out there as an alternative.

Note that Yulie's Turn Shift can't be targetted.  It always affects the character next in the turn order.

That's handy to know! I ...am honestly not sure what turn order my team comes up in, My guess is T260G, Yulie, then Mesarthim though, which probably means Mes gets two turns instead... which isn't so bad.

I would actually imagine that the setup you want has Mesa faster than T260G because needs the Cyber Sword setup or else be restricted to consistent borderline 4HKO damage. Need to relook if this Turn Shift makes any difference though (although...I suspect that Yulie is marginally faster than T2, so the effect will just be slight) as well as SS turn whoring.

[Pyro]

Still not seeing how all SoA Initiative beats out Jane. As far as I know, SoA Initiative is equal (tiebreak speed) except for Silver Nightmare which beats out other initiative. Isn't the same true for ACF initiative, where Jack's Accelerator Initiative beats out all the rest (someone mentioned Jane's Init beat out Ceci's Init move or something).

Even so...

Team Djinn vs. Tidus(Caladbolg), Raquel, Aeris, Gilder, Enrique and Marco (Violent Burst Law)

Even assuming Justice Shield and AoD go first... Ivan lets off some MT magic, Lenneth can wail on someone... The team's goal would be to leave ONE person alive to regen resources off of. Probably Tidus, since Lightningproof armor + Caldabolg means he can't be killed till statused. So Ivan Spark Plasmas, Lenneth Buffs while wailing on Marco, then Marco gives a turn to Ivan to Spark Plasma again. Sacred Slayer can generate 6-7 turns and...

1-Give a turn to Ivan, he Spark Plasmas a third time (55% damage MT total now after halving). (this kills Marco if he wasn't already dead)
2-Give a turn to Lenneth, she KOs Aeris.  (Lenneth's damage is *1.2 for the Marco Kill, HEROISM hype).
3-She gives another turn to Lenneth. She KOs Enrique (Lenneth's damage was at 1.4*1.3*her already overkill damage)
4- Give a turn to Lenneth to KO Gilder (+60% stats including accuracy, stacking with the *1.3 attack Might Bangle... and Raquel was already down to 40% health)
5- Give another turn to Lenneth to KO Raquel (+80% stats even before the Might Bangle. yeah).

Tidus would want to respond by hasting and more, but it's kind of hard for him to work with Jane still sitting there granting Initiative speed. End result is that Ivan statuses him and MP is restored before the next fight.

[Nephrite]

If Tidus is getting turns, he's using them to either A) Slow Jane, so her turn to actually use Follow Me comes slower or B) Delay Bustering her so... again, her turn comes slower.

Anyway, changing the ST Floor to something that better reflects what I want it to be, so please re-vote on Dhyer or edit your own. Thanks!

[Pyro]

The idea was that Slowga wouldn't effect the TB initiative, which always gives initiative.

Tidus would be left alone against Djinn's whole team needing to prevent Ivan from ever getting a turn. That's way too tall an order for him with all the revival and turn-shifting.

[Nephrite]

Yeah, Jane getting free turns to cast Follow Me from the future to bypass the current turn's speed gets a big "Fuck no" from me.

[Pyro]

Doesn't really matter. How is Tidus stopping the team from statusing him ever?

[Dhyerwolf]

Any chance that I might just be able to switch to the MT floor since the fundemental underwent such a change (I'm assuming...that MT got boosted 1.5x there?)?

[Nephrite]

Yeah, Dhyer, that's fine. Let me sort something out about that.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Reading through the arguments, I'm voting Pass for the other two non-Dhyer teams. Will give Dhyer a look when his new Floor is up.

[SnowFire]

Pyro, if you let Jane's initiative win, then team Djinn wins no matter what.  That's not really in dispute.  There's no way to "prove" what happens when initiative moves in different games clash, but since practically nothing beats Skies defensive S-Move initiative and something DOES beat Jane's initiative in Jack's Accelerator - off a character slower than Jane no less - I am strongly inclined to tiebreak toward Skies.  The flavor is strongly that if you use a Skies defensive initiative move, you are protected the entire turn, there is no gap to sneak something in when it's not up, it's similar to how many defend moves in turn-based games just happen guaranteed over the entire round and aren't an action.  (Unless you are an old Dragon Quest game, in which yes you can defend 3/4 of the way through the round and then feel silly.)

There is no way I buy Sacred Slayer generating 6-7 turns with the other team doing absolutely nothing.  No.  Turn Shift is good; it is not "insta septupleturn" good, and if it is then Team Djinn is truly unstoppable.  I'm standing by an interp that makes FOllow Me act like it does in ACF - it does not GAIN turns, it merely moves an already existing turn sooner at the cost of Jane's turn.  Follow Me is not Tidus's Haste.  So yeah, Sacred Slayer's first Turn Shift happens at initiative, but their natural second turn still happens at the same time as non-Follow Me'd Sacred Slayer after using a turn shift, e.g. after the entire Dungeon team has gone.  Team Djinn just gets one fast Turn Shift to play with, which is usually enough.  (And Floor 8 showed that a ton of turn shifts on Turn 2 and afterward is still plenty powerful.)

Ivan can get turns if the fight becomes a long slugfest, but he needs to use his -90% damage effect a lot, and as I noted in my earlier post, even with a very Ivan-friendly interp, when Ivan & Sacred Slayer's speed is hosed so badly vs. a Hastega'd team, there WILL be openings in which it's not up, and the other Dungeon team with all those turns they're getting can stall quite effectively themselves until the turn order lines up correctly to let Raquel go nuts.

[Pyro]

Snowfire:

Silver Nightmare beats Skies shields.

SS has high cavalier OC including Intrude. with lots of mp saving skills.

[dude789]

To be honest I'm not sure why SS got Intrude in the first place. For a 1.5 it seems really overpowered especially given all the alternative options for aftergame stuff in WA XF.

[Nephrite]

Because I didn't think it was going to be as obnoxious as it is.

[SnowFire]

I did say "almost everything" although I do not recall Silver Nightmare doing that myself.  I still don't consider that of much consequence.

I did not see explicit Intrude hype earlier.  Does Intrude work with Turn Shift in XF like hyped where you can generate multiple turn shifts instantly?  If so, Djinn passes then because that really is unstoppable after all as noted if Djinn now has has 12 initiative actions or some such ridiculousness.

[SnowFire]

And that is honestly ridiculous enough that it should probably be patched out in Floor 10.  There's literally no way to balance against 12 initiative actions short of better initiative that kills the entire team (Minato?  Ragu o Ragula 4?) or perfect spoiling of all damage, which is also lame.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Do you not see the Floor I am fighting against? Even with 12 initiative actions, I'm -still- only barely scraping by an argument by the skin of my teeth? How do you figure that needs to be patched?

[dude789]

It's currently a two way problem. The after game floors are so strong that the only way to win is to game the system in some way which most recently have been a result of aftergame floor bonuses. It just seems kind of unsatisfying on both sides.  Djinn's team is well designed but before the aftergame it had some flaws that kept it in check a bit. As it stands now the aftergame floors are a race to see which side can pile on the crazy bullshit the fastest.

This strikes me as bad floor design as there are some teams that are made completely inviable in the aftergame because each character is self contained and they don't have a lot of crazy equips or skillsets they can gain late. 

[SnowFire]

Djinn, you defeat the Violent Burst law floor pretty solidly if Sacred Slayer blows Intrude'd Turn Shifts left & right.  Give Ivan ~2 turns for MT damage sweeping to weaken everyone up so they get KO'd by a single Lenneth turn, then hand Lenneth 4 more turns to kill Gilder / Aeris / Raquel / Marco, then give Ivan another turn to kill Tidus.  That's 7 turns, and you have 4 turns naturally after Follow Me, so that's only 3 Intrudes you need.  Perhaps 4 if Raquel needs to be chipped closer to death so Lenneth can kill while skipping Red Zone I guess.  Leave Enrique alive, he's utterly harmless alone, regen MP.

I do agree that the fight is bonkers as is but I suspect it was amped up a tad to deal with Jane hax.  For what it's worth, I felt my old Celes team defeated this fight back when Eiko was in place instead of Tidus (Eiko is much nicer than Tidus because unlike Tidus, Eiko does not guarantee a horrible death if the battle goes long, although she potentially griefs elementally-reliant teams).
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5933.msg138848.html#msg138848

dude: I do agree that aftergame bonuses have ended up being very swingy lately, but Sacred Slayer High Cavalier OC was just a mistake, it happens, oh well.  As for the floors being strong, everything from Floor 7 on is bonus round stuff; it's not supposed to be fair, it's supposed to free up a slot for another team.  There's really no shame in falling, it's more of a dare to see if a team can possibly beat it.

[Nephrite]

Floor 9's current incarnation was intended to challenge that which is currently challenging it.

[Nephrite]

Dhyer's new floor is up, again.

[Pyro]

How does Dhyer's team *work*?

I know Combo Magic is a major factor, but I know nothing about that. Does it take effect off the fastest speed caster? Slowest speed caster? How good/bad is the damage?

[Random Consonant]

Pyro passes, presently abstaining on everyone else.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

How does Dhyer's team *work*?

I know Combo Magic is a major factor, but I know nothing about that. Does it take effect off the fastest speed caster? Slowest speed caster? How good/bad is the damage?

Comboed magic happens when the comboers get uninterrupted turns between them to combo into elemental spells. Beyond dealing like near double the damage the base spells deal, they also get extra, cumulative damage bonuses as the combo goes further.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Dhyer | [ Nina, Ursula, Scias ] (Ryu, Cray (Items) & Ershin) (Synergy)
Floor 3a: A Singlet
Floor 3b: Multiply
**Multitarget abilities (and those that can be multi-targetted) have their damage and effects increased to 1.5x on this floor. 
Team vs. Dalton, Augst and Spherimorph- Counters are now ST=not very scary. I also get to leave Augst alive and just heal up afterward since much of the opening salvo is elemental.
Team vs. Citan, Billy, Bart and Rico- Basically they get in an ST non fatal attack and eat MT combo magic.
Team vs. Nina4, Yukari, FFT Chemist and Artea- Nina can do about average MT, Artea can do a bit over average ST. I'll probably manipulate my team members to go after them (Have them eat Simoon from Ursula->Nina, then have Scias MT damage or status). Nina4 is the most worrisome target here since Scias and Ursula both start with two MT status spells.
Team vs. Fuse, Cecil (FF4 DS) and Guv (No Call Team)- Slow enemies=prone to combo magic. Sleep also works well here too.
Team vs. Shadow Yukiko- This the dicey fight. She has about 10 PC HP. First 2.5 PC HP she is horrible, you can do whatever you want. Second 2.5 PC HP she can summon something nasty, and damage fails less, although still not scary borderline 2HKO damage. Less 5 PC HP she can do about 40% MT Fire magic.

Summoned support has about 2 PC HP (no support credit obviously), and can inflict a nasty status. However, it is weak to Ice and allows for Press Turns (or just can be knocked down and then have damage levelled at Yukiko).

I think I should be okay here thanks to
1. Stat Downs: Defense Down (Ursula), Slow (Cray). The hit rates on these suck, but Shadow Yukiko starts out very badly. All the time in the world.
2. Speed Up
3. Her summon being effectively trashable with Scias
4. Ryu's only dragon summon should at least resist Fire (or maintain his innate resistance). Finally, somewhere that this actually has a tangible use.

Questions
1. For Neph, am I allowed to equip random found items (since I have access to everyone they would apply to)? Not like I have anything particular in mind, but these on the whole might be an extra edge. Similarly, thoughts on item cast that would normally not be DL legal because anyone can use them but here...I have access to them all.
2. For people who know BoF 4 better, I'm assuming that Ershin's special armors are generally kicking in on floor 4 (Could be 3. I know the place you get them is probably accessible floor 3, but the ability to use may not be until later?)