Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~  (Read 8658 times)

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2013, 04:28:51 AM »
I have no objections to 1.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2013, 05:16:40 AM »
That can get me someone who extra Fire res (Ranger's Garb, Fire Ward, 1 of each).

At worst, I have Life Sandals which is at least some general status resist which is storebought. So nothing major, but definitely a few things that can help in that last fight.
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2013, 09:04:57 PM »
And one final comment for my team, Yulie has Material, which is MT healing as well as revival. It takes 25 FP and she starts every battle with 25. She's also extremely fast with Body Charge, to the point where Quicken should put her at something like 220% average speed.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 09:07:43 PM by Nephrite »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2013, 10:26:44 PM »
The flaw with Material is that it's 4 of 7, I guess every other time could work. Helps takes pressure off Mesa, but the flip is that Mesa is constantly going to be targetted.

Mesa: ~116.5% speed (to me; +1.1 SD)
Yulie: ~114.5% speed
T260G: ~113.5% Speed
Raynie: ~100% speed
Marco: ~99% Speed

I'm going to reanalyze everything, but I just realize...Canopy Defense outspeeds on Earth fight 1, throwing out...a lot of damage. Magnify and Statis Rune (unless aimed at same person). This...could be bad.
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2013, 11:57:31 PM »
Dhyer for what it's worth, T260 is +1.26 on Speed. Not sure that changes much, but it's there.

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2013, 01:51:16 AM »
I'll vote Pass on Neph's team for now. 4K MT damage off T260G with Marco there to double it up (and Raynie to Triple it up if needed) goes a long way. I hope he'll come forward and do a turn by turn breakdown for us though!

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2013, 02:51:38 AM »
As requested. Some notes, courtesy of Dhyer above:

T260G: 130%~ (1.26) (not 100% sure on that, but fast regardless)
Mesa: ~116.5% speed (to me; +1.1 SD)
Yulie: ~114.5% speed
Raynie: ~100% speed
Marco: ~99% Speed


Team MICHAEL | T260G, Mesarthim, Yulie (Body Charge), Raynie, Marco
[T260G: Type-8 Body [OmegaBody] [Pop-Knight, Magnify, PluralSlash, ShootingMastery CombatMastery & MaxwellProgram ]
Floor 7a: The Elemental Ties that Bind
Team MICHAEL vs. Sasarai, Delphie (WoZ), Tengaar, Golem (Pokemon) and Scarmiglione-Z (FF4DS) - Turn order is (Tengaar Canopy Defense)T260>Yulie>Mes>Delphie>(Sas if using Earthquake)>Tengaar (if using EQ)>Marco=Scarm=(Sas if using Canopy Defense)>Raynie>>>Delphie's second turn here?>>>>>Golem

If Tengaar goes for Canopy Defense, T260 uses Pop-Knight, which is physical. Yulie then uses Quicken on Marco, who can Trans-Turn into another T260G turn for a second Pop-Knight. That's about 7000 Saga Frontier damage, which is beyond the 6250 kill point by a bit, so it most definitely murders Tengaar and Sasarai either way. Mesarthim throws a Maelstrom to get rid of the Canopy Defense and then Raynie murders the hell out of Golem. Scarm can't do anything by himself and all Delphie has is damage.


Team MICHAEL vs. Barbariccia, Crono, Yukari, Tiamat (FF1) and Kanji - Barbi spins, Crono gets off a Luminaire... and... then T260 will Pop-Knight again, Yulie Quickens again and... again, Pop-Knight death. Yukari will never see a turn and neither will Crono. Kanji might, maybe, but he's all ST. Marco can heal up with Area G-Heal via Quicken rather easily, but I'm willing to say I blow an LP on Mesarthim here for healing.

Team MICHAEL vs. Rubicante (FF4o), Yukiko, Ho-oh and Alen (S1) - T260G Pop Knights, Yulie Quickens Mesarthim, Mesarthim gets off a Maelstrom, which is Water Element, so will hit weakness on Yukiko. Even if she misses the first one, she'll hit the second, which means she gets a third. There's really no pressure the enemy team can mount here.

Team MICHAEL vs. Lenus, Marle, Frog, Mao (SH3), Kraken (FF1) and Cagnazzo (FF4DS) - Pop-Knight probably straight-up murders Marle. But let's just go with PluralSlash on Marle, Quicken on T260 and kill Marle with a Mesarthim turn. Lenus can't do much at full health... Frog, Kraken and Cagnazzo are all slower than Raynie and Marco, so they can take out Frog. Next turn, kill Kraken and Cagnazzo, then work on Lenus. Once she's dead, Raynie breaks out the Mana Regen spell and everyone gets their MP back while keeping Mao asleep with either Raynie's Sleep Break or Marco's Sleep...whatever it was called.

Team MICHAEL vs. Profound Darkness, Susano-O (SH2), and Lamington - So, getting here with full resources will make this a great deal easier. T260G will use Magnify, Yulie throws a Quicken on herself, Mesarthim casts StasisRune on PD. Lamington can poke Marco, Susano-O probably kills him. Raynie hits Susano-O with magic. Yulie uses next turn to Quicken T260G, who will put more hurt on Susano-O. The two enemies probably kill Raynie now. T260's next turn kills Susano-O and then starts working on Lamington. Yulie revives Raynie, Lamington... can't really do much at this point, but let's say he can somehow kill Raynie again. Yulie is probably lapping them pretty handily at this point, so she can get Raynie and Marco up. Eventually, the StasisRune will wear off, and at that point it's PD versus my team, which I will then use V-Max against.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2013, 04:55:39 AM »
Right, Marco should actually be 97% speed I guess (36 of 37)

I take the harshest view of TB speed that I know of, and Mesa is faster than Yulie by my measure.T260G is only that fast if she is willing to forgo decent consistent physical damage (Not a lot of speed, but she'll be slower than Mesa for sure). With the best speed, Pop Knight will be about 1500 damage.

Analysis (apologies for grammer mistakes, because I wrote a lot then realized I needed to edit when I came up with a better strategy)

For the Earth fight, it can Maelstorm first is remove MT (of important note, 50% chance of the team eating mass MT status with near perfect hit rate here), T2 can Magnify...uh...Scar. No wait, Scar has like 1.5 PC HP, that isn't not a successful kill and leads to another 50% MT Status counter. Tengaar already acted, Sasarai has a 50% chance of missing, Delphi won't be killed. So maybe he will Pop Knight. Yulie can Quicken Marco, Delphi Magic Thunder. Now will Marco outrace Sasarai? EQ is 104% speed versus Marco's 97. Delphi is listed as inbetween Dorothy and Scarecrow, but closer to Dorothy (this could be 110% speed). My gut reaction is no. Marco has that small area before Delphi dispels the effect. Then Sasarai does get off EQ. Marco can Trans Turn for another Pop Knight, but Delphi gets another turn which she can use to off Marco I think (Her ST + Earthquake does about 99% damage). This can't be stopped barring Marco switching over to Yulie and Yulie being on revival. Scar can only do damage, but that damage is more than enough to get someone out of the way. If Marco does switch to T2, then I guess Delphi adds .2 MT (about 0.8 total). At this point Scar can kill Yulie with his physical. Next round though...if Mesa does not use healing, Delphi's MT gets too much damage. So counter goes down 1...and then Delphi's still gets Mesa regardless. Counter down 2.

So Marco probably needs to transfer to Yulie, who needs to heal (4/7 this is actually MT). Of course...if he is expecting Yulie to heal, I think Sasarai probably just heals too. So...this is rinse and repeated next round except two things: Scar's damage sticks and Golem is dead. Tengaar CDs...blah blah blah. Cut to it, at the very least, they are blowing MP and Mesa will die at least once.

Taking bigger SD doesn't really help. Tengaar is still going first, Yulie and Marco don't speed up, but Sasarai and Delphi do.

Wind fight: If you see Barby as faster than your team, why doesn't she just phyiscal Yulie and kill her instead of spinning? Or kill Mesa, bring that counter down to 6 (if not lower). Crono of course does 40% MT Lightning magic. Yukari and Tiamat are the same speed as Raynie so...Raynie may need to tiebreak them both (As a reminder, team is probably already riding on a potential 50% mass status from last time very likely). FYI, two Pop Knights will only get Yukari (Barby's PDur is okay, certainly above 1.1, Tiamat is a just a death tank to items that are not Sacrifice, Kanji has like 1.7 Durability overall). Each Pop Knight has a 50% of unleashing low 2HKO Thunder magic of note. Most of these people are getting at least a turn if you see Barby as fast enough (Even if not, she's probably still fast enough to at least get a turn)

Fire fight: Yukiko is weak to Ice in a game with no Water. Mesa's Water is distinctly different than Ice (like a completely wholly different type of check). I don't think I see Yukiko as weak in this case; it's just too big an element split in Saga. This is kind of a big split. Regardless though, Mesa dies at least once unless Yulie wants to hit her with Protect. If you do see Yukiko as weak, Safeguard at least means she does not get knocked down if she evades the first (and there is One Mores if she is not knocked down? And does MT even get one mores unless they are all weak?) So...I find this one a lot messier. Safeguard also means that they need to draw the fight out if they want to do the slow MP healing. Yukiko must be killed first, which...since she evades turn 1 is 4 turns of attacks (1 Evade, 1 Hit, 1 Evade, 1 Hit againstEnduring. And that's assuming that T260G OHKOs with Magnify. This needs Saga elements to hit the weakest element since Yukiko halves Thunder. Then it takes 5 hits. Clear Ice damage is awesome here). So in the meanwhile, that's a somewhat free turn for the enemies to wreak havoc.

On the Water fight, I notice that you are predicating on leaving Mao alive turn 1, but using all your PCs and killing everyone off. This won't work because Mao has MT revival. This is the least problematic fight to me, but killing Marle and Frog and then having Mao revive them a little still is a bit of a setback (Not bad, just forces T2 to use Pop Knight for sure). FYI, Cagnazzo phys+Lenus MT+Kraken phys...does KO damage (Aka: Gets any of  the healers). Pop-Knight does about 57% MT damage, so it does not get Marle (The ST physical does though. Marle's Pdur is 60%). Mesa may be dying at least 1 time each match at minimum. They at some point probably have to Sleep Mao early because they can't have her revive others (You also need to assume that dungeon enemies can never hit each other or else they will just kill Mao, which is not unreasonable). Also, Mesa when alive needs to constantly be under Protect. Lenus can kill otherwise. So let's say...Pop-Knight, Maelstorm, Protect Mesa, Marco transfers to T2 to ST off Frog (this...well, would be Pop Knight, but that eliminates Mao so there is not any stalling at the end and hits Lenus into limit range). But Mao can revive Frog and Marle, who need to be taken out individually so at not to activate anything wrong with the MT. Cag/Lenus/Kraken go for Marco.

On the last fight, well, yes, it will help if Mesa hasn't needed to blow Stasis Rune already. But...it will wear off when PD switches form I think. I can't remember what of Kato's was AoE. Lamington and Kato can polish off things...potentially what Kato doing AoE that also status out others. Stasis needs to hit through boss immunities. So...there are a lot of things through out the floor that can really go wrong. There are fights were Mesa can just potentially fall several times. She may not be here at the last time, which leaves PD open to systematically massacre often. I think the team could get here, but there's a lot of ways that the team can fail.
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2013, 05:34:41 AM »
StasisRune absolutely hits everything in Saga Frontier. And I can't actually -do- damage to PD during StasisRune, so it wearing off when she switches forms doesn't matter too much.

EDIT: If you don't see Mes's Maelstrom as being Ice, that's fine, in that case it might be better to have Raynie get the turns to ensure she dies either way.

Admittedly, I forgot Mao had MT revival, but since it's 30%HP and probably puts their CT at 0, I can't really imagine that's going to be much of an issue even if she gets it off.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 05:39:14 AM by Nephrite »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2013, 05:39:49 AM »
Can MP be regenerated when under Stasis then or does it just help with that first form of PD?
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2013, 05:43:03 AM »
Stasis removes all other status when it is applied (this is the source of the glitch with OverDrive).

Maelstrom is definitely not ice. Ice is a Saga Frontier element and Maelstrom ain't it.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2013, 05:46:34 AM »
So "statuses" cast on a character while in stasis also has no effect? And does Saga combo elements take the "best" element of the attacker in the situation or does it balance them somehow?
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2013, 05:50:29 AM »
It would figure that Saga Frontier would seperate Ice and Water somehow.

And no, nothing you cast on the person in Stasis has any effect.

EDIT: I just tested it, StasisRune lasts for about 15 rounds.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 05:55:04 AM by Nephrite »

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2013, 05:54:07 AM »
SH revival acyually preserves CT, which is pretty awesome when it is on your team!

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2013, 06:06:50 AM »
The good is that Mao is dead average, so Marco goes after and can at least shift to T2 to eliminate Marle. Pop Knight...would get both and Mao as well, but also pushes Lenus to limit range while Cag and Kraken are still alive, would would be dangerous.

Also of note, for Neph, I believe that at the levels you take, Raynie and Marco are actually both slow average speed (Which is good against Mao, but also loses a lot of other tiebreaks).
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2013, 06:20:28 AM »
If you take them against the higher levels (60?) They are 1 and 2 points below average. Might be average on the dot if you take out the True Historica which does sort of require you defeat an optional superboss.

Magic Fanatic

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2013, 06:38:08 AM »
As requested. Some notes, courtesy of Dhyer above:

T260G: 130%~ (1.26) (not 100% sure on that, but fast regardless)
Mesa: ~116.5% speed (to me; +1.1 SD)
Yulie: ~114.5% speed
Raynie: ~100% speed
Marco: ~99% Speed

The SD speed is entirely reliant on how you translate it.  Given the numbers there, you may need to fix a few calculations, since Dhyer seems to use 1 SD = 15%, while you look like you use 1 SD = 25%, which would throw Mesa to about 127.5% speed, while T260G is 131.5% for that calculation.  If you use Dhyer's SD calc with your speed view for T260G, then she's only 118.9%.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #92 on: January 07, 2013, 01:53:36 AM »
Oh yes, any confirmination if the Quicken/Turn Shift strat works in game?

Stasis letting you affect the enemy at all does hurt a bit, since it means that statising PD form 1 doesn't even let you get past that form. It does let you spend time Quickening/Protecting, although those are not of infinite duration. Still no strong argument for how the Fire fight is easily dealt with either.
...into the nightfall.

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2013, 02:10:10 AM »
The idea of StasisRuning is to remove a boss from the fight in exchange for Mesa. So instead of Mesa/Marco/T260G/BC Yulie/Raynie vs. PD/Kato/Lamington, it becomes Marco/T260G/BC Yulie/Raynie vs. Kato/Lamington. Then when those two are polished off the team preps to take on PD by herself.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2013, 02:35:26 AM »
Right, I was just initially assuming that they would even get past that form for free (aka: never a chance for her to hit anyone). Also, Kato's Final Revelation is MT, which is not great (25% MMP Bust, so they probably have to haved regened...at some point, but the chances for it are really more limited than what is being put forth because it's 5% MP regen a turn for one person. Water is leaving Mao alive to revive, Fire is...outwaiting Safeguard potentially (eating a lot of damage potentially too).
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2013, 02:50:20 AM »
Oh yes, any confirmination if the Quicken/Turn Shift strat works in game?

Stasis letting you affect the enemy at all does hurt a bit, since it means that statising PD form 1 doesn't even let you get past that form. It does let you spend time Quickening/Protecting, although those are not of infinite duration. Still no strong argument for how the Fire fight is easily dealt with either.

Which strategy are you referring to?

As for the Fire Fight, I'm not really sure I'd see Safeguard as blocking the knockdown effect... if you do, well, T260 probably opens with a PopKnight to put some damage on everyone, Mesarthim throws a Maelstrom out, Yulie uses Quicken on... hmm, Raynie? Raynie gets off a G-Frost on Yukiko... depending on if you see her evading that... if it's a matter of "Yukiko evades every other attack" or something, which I find a bit weird, then T260G uses damage, Mesarthim GlassShields, Yulie Quickens Raynie, Raynie hits Yukiko with Sleep Break to take her out for a while... Rubicante probably Scorches Marco (and kills him?), Ho-oh Safeguards, Alen uses Final Flame (which if it didn't kill Marco, does now)... next turn, T260G uses Pop-Knight again, that probably kills Alen. Yulie Quickens herself... Raynie will hit Yukiko with G-Frost again (since Pop-Knight missed on the earlier turn, unless Sleep prevents dodging, in which case she's dead now) and finish off Ho-Oh with it. Rubicante Scorches Raynie and kills her...  Yulie revives Raynie... and there's really not a lot here that gets messy after that. It's a bit of a drain on resources, but nothing that should completely run me dry.

If you see Ho-Oh as 1) Faster than Quickened Raynie 2) Safeguard as stopping the knockdown (even though you can't block it in-game) and 3) Yukiko as evading every other attack, then a better idea is to probably go for as much damage as possible, so Yulie Quickens T260G instead to give it something like 260% average speed to get out some more damage. Most of the damage on the enemy team is magical, so Yulie and T260 easily survive it and can revive people from there once Yukiko is dealt with.

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2013, 04:24:52 AM »
If you mean Djinn's Intrude/Turn Shift, then yes it should work.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2013, 07:46:16 AM »
Switch to pass for Djinn then. I think he can squeak by.

On the fire fight, you have to assuming that Yukiko's evasion is getting her somewhere. Assuming every other turn at least is a way to quantify (I should note that there are already a large number of 50% checks that you need to pass, like 50% of not triggering counters in the Earth fight with Maelstorm, then 50% of not triggering counters in the Wind fight with Pop Knight)

Rubicant does 2 PC HP damage, which overkills Marco (And also...kills Mesa if nothing is up, and combined with Final Flame can kill Yulie or T2).

The good is that I think with FRLG (which he wants here, because doubling all MP usage is awesome. If you don't see that applying to all MP, he wants his original form and then is clearly too fast) and Quicken and 15% SD, Raynie can outspeed Ho-oh (The bad is that most people take a higher view of SD average, and I think that if Ho'oh is closer to speed to Yulie than Raynie that this strategy will not work). She will Ice Yukiko (Sleep is likely not turn 1. Yukiko has an extra 15 Luck compared to average with the options she would choose here) and get another turn and...do whatever. Ho-oh will Sunny Day. Rubicant will toast Marco. Alen will go and kill Raynie and do severe damage to everyone else. Next most be Maelstorm and Pop-Knight (T2 has like 12 MP left), which leaves all but Rubicant. If both Mesa and T2 don't use MT, then either Alen or Ho-oh will remain alive. They can not regain MP against Rubicant. Of course, the next target is Mesa. My problem is not that the team can't get past, but that they need to blow a huge chunk of resources and will eat a Mesa death too. If T260G does not even come into the next fight with the resources to use a Pop-Knight, then Frog is left alive (Or alternately, if he has one, then the main source of damage is basically out). Then the Water fight is also quite hard to regain resources on because Frog, Marle and Mao are all primary targets, leaving no one to regain the MP on. Then the fail fight comes and Kato busts 25% of their MMP. The Wind fight should be...potentially okay for regaining, although...I guess that if Kanji basically decided to drop to a really horrible armor, he could be taken out in the MT barrage of the fight. There are so many variables

--50% chance of triggering Scar's counters with Maelstorm (which is needed to remove Canopy Defense). This goes off and the first fight is practially a loss too (everyone but T2 is statused to hell).
--50% chance of triggering Barby's counters with Pop Knight
--Raynie tiebreaking Yukari for speed (and to a lesser extent tiebreaking the FF 1 boss, if she loses the tiebreak to Yukari)
--Any time Yulie wants to use that MT healing/revival, there's only a slight better then 50% chance of it actually working
--Mesa can only die/revive 8 times, and really arguably is dying at least once a fight unless the team plays completely defensively around her.

The team can win, but so many things have to break exactly their way (and I still think that the MP issues are too great).
...into the nightfall.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2013, 09:23:17 PM »
For Yulie, even though the MT healing is clearly more helpful, the fact that her other options on a failure to heal are all MT Damage, she can be used instead of Mesarthim's Maelstrom to break Canopy Defense? And Mesarthim can use her healing instead. They can at least switch roles until Yulie has a chance to move to a non-ley-point Hex.

Pyro

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~
« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2013, 11:05:34 PM »
It is possible that Scar counters do not get triggered under Canopy Defense. Testable if reflect can be applied to him.

If anything, I'll bet you he owes his own team a 50% Gas Counter with Canopy Defense. <_<
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 11:56:57 PM by Pyro »