Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week ~100~

[ThePiggyman]

Hmm.  One FAQ on GameFAQs does indeed say "halves physical damage taken in the round" while the other FAQ just says "halve damage" as does Wikia (lol Wikia though).  On one hand, it's 2 on 1, on the other hand, as noted, Special Attacks are all you care about in SoA so telling the difference might be hard, implying it'd be easy to assume it was all attacks (as I did).  Bah.  Do we have a volunteer to investigate this?

Although I can't verify this, I believe that Justice Shield essentially just puts everyone into a Guard stance without having to use a turn to do so. Using the Guard command in Skies of Arcadia pretty much reduces all damage by half (magic damage included), so based on that, I believe that Justice Shield should halve all damage.

I tried looking for something to prove this on YouTube, but regrettably, most players who used Justice Shield also used Delta Shield. In this video, Justice Shield halved the damage from Vigoro's Charm, but I have no clue whether that's a magic or physical attack. Nonetheless, I feel confident that Justice Shield halves all damage, based on the fact that what it does is essentially put everyone in the party in a Guard stance.

[dude789]

Just a note that if this is GS2 Ivan then his damage is bad. Spark Plasma is 219 to a 237 average. Also Terra and Celes can throw a bit of a wrench in an MT blitz in the first fight because they immune all of Ivan's damage.

[SnowFire]

So Djinn, you're basically hyping Ivan as ~.60-.65 PCHP with his MT then.  Dhyer said it was more like "average" though which I believe means more like .4-.5.  Ack.  This is quite the split.

Team Djinn vs. Tidus(Caladbolg), Raquel, Aeris, Gilder, Enrique and Marco (Violent Burst Law)
Assuming that Justice Shield does indeed halve all damage as Piggyman & I suspect (but if someone else wants to verify, please do - no Dreamcast nor SoA:L here), this is potentially big trouble.  If Ivan does .50 PCHP with his MT, then 3x that -> 1.5 PCHP -> .75 PCHP post Justice Shield -> baaaaaaaaaarely enough to kill Tidus, maybe, but not Marco, so Lenneth has to choose between killing Marco & Aeris (Marco has revival, letting him live is bad, but so is Great Gospel resolving).  FF7 Peerless stops status too, right?  Not that it matters, Raquel will want to drop Ivan to get rid of the -90% damage move anyway, and then Gilder can threaten The Claudia.

If Ivan's damage is seen as better, say .62 PCHP, now Ivan barely barely sweeps both Tidus & Marco with an MT storm...  but also triggers Red Zone from Raquel.  I guess Lenneth gets some beats on Aeris in too first to get Aeris as part of the bargain.  Still, RZ Raquel goes on a killing spree and gets Ivan & Jane (using 2x Iron Divides to beat Jane's evade) & horribly wounds Lenneth, and Raquel probably gets another turn before round 2 since the RZ turn was instant and happened at TB initiative to finish off Lenneth, and it doesn't matter because now Enrique & Gilder can go batshit with no Ivan to worry about.

If Djinn plays for a buffing strategy for whatever reason...  okay Ivan can stall some with his buffs & -90% damage move, but that means there will be invincible Tidus to deal with who will be tossing around Hastegas & Slowgas, and I don't think Djinn has a field dispel to work with to even begin to compensate for the incoming quadraturns.

For Djinn to win this fight, he needs to have Ivan seen as having solid damage (say .65 PCHP MT spammable) AND for Ivan to supplement this with Djinn releases that can get around Red Zone somehow I think, and sweep that way.  Seems possible, but does Ivan get the stats back for releasing Djinn later in the floor?  Could tank him in the later fights anyway, even if this strategy works.

Call it a fail for now, but will re-analyze if Justice Shield is proven to not affect magic.

[ThePiggyman]

I'll go ahead and vote, while I'm at it.

Have to abstain on Team Djinn and Team MICHAEL; don't know their teams well enough, or too much important things I don't know enough about.

Team Pyro passes.

Team Dhyer's a hairy situation with the Zodiacs. Velius is actually slow, though, and Adramelk is closer to average, so the status isn't coming off immediately; big question is if the blitz on one of them comes quickly enough. Although slow, they're probably the two most durable Zodiacs... I'll say pass.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Velius isn't slow, he's above average if probably not much... to outspeed him as a PC you need 9 speed which is a little tricky to come by at that point (basically needs both Sprint Shoes and Green Beret, or to be a Ninja). Granted, it's reasonable to assume that both Scias and Ursula are further above average than either he or Adramelk is.

[ThePiggyman]

Velius isn't slow, he's above average if probably not much... to outspeed him as a PC you need 9 speed which is a little tricky to come by at that point (basically needs both Sprint Shoes and Green Beret, or to be a Ninja). Granted, it's reasonable to assume that both Scias and Ursula are further above average than either he or Adramelk is.

Oh, right, that's 8 speed in Chapter 3, not at endgame. I wouldn't count Sprint Shoes, but Green Berets are fine. I guess Velius would come around as more or less average speed, maybe marginally higher? Indeed, I think I'd still count them both faster than Velius.

[Pyro]

Why would Justice Shield's initiative beat out Jane's? Jane is naturally faster than Enrique, which seems like a good initiative tiebreak between two TB initiatives.

I don't see why you would need >200% speed to beat TB initiative. TB initiative should be converted to CTB speed at whatever 'infinite" TB speed would be to you. A 200% TB speed cap is generally higher than what I've heard bandied about (and is intuitively wrong... no TB speed is worth constant double-turning, as the entire point is that you *might* get something *like* a double-turn as far as making opponents guess your move in advance).

Let's say the TB speed cap is 166.6%. Let's say that Mewtwo is... 130% speed (This leaves a LOT of room between Mewtwo and the cap, which is somewhat unintuitive). This means BC Mewtwo is still faster than that TB cap. (For 20% Stdev, BC Mewtwo is 182%, for 25% Mewtwo is 195%). I can't see there being that much of a gap between +2 stdevs and whatever the TB speed cap is.

Mewtwo -> Jane -> Aika -> Ryu -> Ivan (?) -> Ephraim -> Lenneth -> Marco -> Sacred Slayer

But I think the fight deserves another look.

Let's assume Djinn enters the fight with full MP (thanks to Ivan's restoration and SS's MP regen and such). How many turns can Sacred Slayer actually generate?
75% * 64 MP = 48 MP per Intrude. -6 for the MP Regen is 42. 75% * 32 MP for Turn Shift is 24 MP. - 6 for for the MP regen is 18. This means that if Sacred Slayer burns all her MP, she can generate 6 turns for people of her choice (5 Intrudes, 6 Turn Shifts). Maybe 7 if she has more than endgame MP too. So Mewtwo KOs Jane to prevent mass turn raping. Aika can only really confuse or Delta Shield, as her damage sucks arse. So she Confuses Ivan I suppose. Ryu can either transform or whack Sacred Slayer while Ephraim finishes off Sacred Slayer. But then Lenneth revives SS and Marco grants her a turn. The end result is that SS gets a turn, which opens up a lot of possibilities. She can grant a turn to Marco to revive Jane, grant another turn to Lenneth to status heal Ivan, grant another turn to Ivan to start statusing people...

The problem with SS's strategy comes in the future turn deficit. Stealing a lot of turns with Turn Shift means that the PC's next turn won't come (it's been replaced with an SS Icon much like RH's Switch). If she loads up on a PC that PC won't be getting a natural turn for a while (and probably can't be selected by RH Trans-turn as a result), or even distributes equally while blowing MP, then she'll be the only PC to take turns for a while (without much MP, either).

I'm changing my vote to Abstain for a while until I can puzzle this stuff out. Still wow that is a whoring SS setup.

[Nephrite]

Oh, one other thing for my team, Yulie has Turn Shift too, which means most fights start with T260G probably getting two actions. Just throwing it out there as an alternative.

[Dhyerwolf]

Jane's initiative in game gives way to slower initiative (Jack's accelarator)

[Pyro]

*Lenneth has been granted a Power Bangle!
*Sacred Slayer has been granted Emulator's Passive Skills! (But not Action Replay because fuck that noise)
*Sacred Slayer has been granted High Cavalier's OCs
*Ivan is to now be considered as GS2 Ivan.
Team Djinn vs. Terra, Cyan, Shadow, Sabin, Celes, Edgar, Mog and Strago(Status Symbol Law): Jane Follow Me's. The team gets a Lenneth turn, an Ivan turn, and 6-7 turns between those two. Wow. So... Lenneth can get the turns and KO Strago (while buffing), Edgar, Sabin, Cyan... Evade might be a concern but Lenneth's Heroism means her stats increase (including Acc) as the KO count racks up. She'll want to leave alive... Mog and Shadow? Neither is particularly dangerous to the team. Then KO Shadow and leave Mog to regen resources off of.
Team Djinn vs. Tidus(Caladbolg), Raquel, Aeris, Gilder, Enrique and Marco (Violent Burst Law): Status works here. Leave one alive and statused to regen resources.
Team Djinn vs. Levin (Neo Speed), Felius, Labyrinthia, Alexia, RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT, Tony and Clarissa: BETTER XF HAX. Then leave like Tony alive to restore resources.
Team Djinn vs. Ricardo, Purim, Artea, Marle, Yulie, Nina4, Yuna and Lucius (All with Life Sealstone): Lenneth gets a lot of turns and kills a lot of healers. A statused... Purim or Yuna is left for regening MP off of.
Team Djinn vs. Yosuke, Yukiko, Teddie, Naoto, Kanji, Yukari, Ken and Aigis (Elemental Advance):  The elec mocking here along with lots of evade/phys durability shuts down a lot of what Djinn's team can do outside status, which admittedly is how he wants to approach this fight. Status everyone he can, kill Aigis with Lenneth... and leave one to restore resources. The reliance on status whoring make me a bit uncomfortable, though. Some of them have MT status healing. This could be a problem but I'll assume status works because if it doesn't the team is kind of fucked.
Team Djinn vs. Ephraim, Ryu1, Mewtwo and Aika (All with Body Charge): BC Mewtwo beats TB initiative and KOs Jane. Aika Swirmarangs Ivan. Ryu and Ephraim can off Sacred Slayer... I'm trying to think of a way team BC prevents SS from getting a turn along with a reviver/status healer, but it's not coming to mind. Mewtwo must open by KOing Jane. That leaves Aika, Ryu1, and Aika to incapacitate SS and either Lenneth or Marco. Aika could Swirlmarang SS while Ryu1 whacks Marco, but then Ivan may be faster than BC Ephraim and prevent him from KOing Marco. Well, Ryu critting would end the fight right there, and Djinn needed that status hax last fight too. And I think I use 20% for Stdevs so Ivan would be slower than BC Ephraim. But... That leaves Ivan and Lenneth. Ivan has an MT 90% stun djinni unleash while Lenneth has massive damage and revival. I think the two of them can win via that against this setup. Amusing.

Djinn Passes. Barely which is saying something about the floor when his setup is this nasty.

[Nephrite]

Zog has been emergency replaced with Jeremy Non Number 2.

[Dhyerwolf]

Zog for Jeremy? That's a pretty massively horrible change for my team (which is weird, because don't the changes always go in the other direction?). Jeremy is like 3 PC HP (solo, so unscaled), OHKOs handily (the cavaet is that his evasion may be questionable, which could potentially save my team. Topic doesn't have specific notes though) and is also 228% speed (read as: may knock out Nina and then go before Scias and knock him out too).

[dude789]

Zog for Jeremy? That's a pretty massively horrible change for my team (which is weird, because don't the changes always go in the other direction?). Jeremy is like 3 PC HP (solo, so unscaled), OHKOs handily (the cavaet is that his evasion may be questionable, which could potentially save my team. Topic doesn't have specific notes though) and is also 228% speed (read as: may knock out Nina and then go before Scias and knock him out too).

I think the reason for that is that Zog is kind of hard to handle with his MT high 2HKO off of great durability when all of a team's healing has become ST. At least Jeremy can be blitzed somewhat. I'm still not sure why the ST only affects the enemy team though. That seems like a silly change that makes the floor less interesting.

[Nephrite]

Hmm... if Jeremy is actually harder for you then... well, give me a day to sort it out.

As to why I changed it... I made it so the enemy team gets the benefit from the floor. It was a way to change the dynamics without completely changing the floor... that, and I feel like the old version was always kind of a terrible steamroll for most anyone, although the MT Floor was even more of one.

[Dhyerwolf]

Doh, I didn't even realize that the floors had a change. I may just wipe at Lenus then (her damage allowed to get full MT is murderous).

[Nephrite]

I'll take care of it, just give me until tomorrow. So suspend any Dhyer votes for now.

[Pyro]

A few points on team Djinn:

Dhyer: For that last fight, Lenneth -> Marco turns means that Lenneth revives SS and Marco Trans-turns her. This allows her to do the "Grant 6-7 turns" thing, so she can like revive

Snowfire: Whats to stop Team Djinn from whoring out status against the Violent Burst law floor while Lenneth polishes off Marco?

In general, I think people were quick to vote "fail" without realizing just how crazy SS is when she gets a turn in this format. Not saying he wins, just saying it deserves consideration.

[Talaysen]

Oh, one other thing for my team, Yulie has Turn Shift too, which means most fights start with T260G probably getting two actions. Just throwing it out there as an alternative.

Note that Yulie's Turn Shift can't be targetted.  It always affects the character next in the turn order.

[SnowFire]

Pyro: Gilder's Aura of Denial.  That beats Follow Me, too.

[DjinnAndTonic]

If Gilder's using Aura of Denial, then he's not using The Claudia and is therefore one less threat I have to deal with on turn one. Ivan/Marco don't have to use Sleep, so Ivan gets a turn to use Flash, and flat cut 90% off the damage of the enemy party until Ivan's next turn, so Raquel/Claudia/Marco are neutered until it wears off. Lenneth only needs to take out Tidus and Aeris first turn to prevent their Limits from going off.  And SS Turnspam should be more than enough for that level of frailty.

[Nephrite]

Oh, one other thing for my team, Yulie has Turn Shift too, which means most fights start with T260G probably getting two actions. Just throwing it out there as an alternative.

Note that Yulie's Turn Shift can't be targetted.  It always affects the character next in the turn order.

That's handy to know! I ...am honestly not sure what turn order my team comes up in, My guess is T260G, Yulie, then Mesarthim though, which probably means Mes gets two turns instead... which isn't so bad.

[SnowFire]

I wish Lenneth good luck in taking out Evade&Counter Caladbolg Tidus (yes Tidus beats Lenneth in the DL).  That said, I suppose there's something to be said for a strategy of "kill Aeris on Follow Me turn with 2x Lenneth turns" to stop Great Gospel which makes the long slugfest vaguely more sane.  Not really inclined to respect SS turnspam from starting faster thanks to the Follow Me turn (obviously SS gets a free turn shift then, but for when SS's NEXT turn is I force that to be like where it'd be if SS TS'd normally, so very very late in Turn 1 / early Turn 2.)  May not matter too much vs. Justice Shield + Marco healing / buffing.  Anyway, once Hastega / Slowga go down, Tidus can start aiming Delay Busters at Sacred Slayer, and the turnsplit becomes completely obscene.  If Flash is interpreted to be "-90% damage until Ivan's next turn period" then that'd be a problem, but it only kicks in after Ivan gets a turn in-game, right?  So there must be SOME window for enemies faster than Ivan to get damage in after a GS round starts but before Ivan has gone, and with Hastega & Slowga that window is fairly wide.  Yes, Ivan can be TS'd to have cast his own speed-buffing on Turn 1 I suppose, and Sacred Slayer still complicates that, but with your team's offense so neutered after the initial Aeris kill, I think the Dungeon team has time to get this off before the SoA characters run out of SP.  Don't forget that when the Dungeon team wants to move in for the kill, Marco will have a Turn Break in the bag ready to blow on Sacred Slayer / Ivan to be sure Flash doesn't go off in time.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Well, instead of Flash, Ivan could use Haze for MT Invincibility for one turn instead. Then there's no Slowga/Delay Buster/TurnBreak to worry about.

E&C... means that Lenneth kills Gilder instead of Tidus, and by the time Invincibility wears off, Jane uses Follow Me again and Marco can status out Enrique, Ivan releases Flash to keep Raquel neutered, Lenneth takes out Enemy Marco before he can revive/status heal anyone. Round three, there's only Tidus and Raquel left, and Lenneth has 3 kills under her belt to increase her damage and no Justice Shield to deal with, so Raquel is out. From there, it's a long slog to taking out Tidus with Ivan magic. I can have Marco revive Aeris (who lost her Limit meter from dying) to heal up for the following fight.

[SnowFire]

Djinn, are you letting Follow Me beat out the Skies initiative moves?  If you do, then you can just use Ivan status and win the fight.  I'm assuming that both Aura of Denial & Justice Shield go off, and while there's questions on if Justice Shields helps vs. a pure Ivan MT magic onslaught (if it doesn't, then you win from that instead far more solidly), it most definitely works vs. physicals, so Lenneth is unhappy.  This means that killing Gilder requires all 3 Lenneth turns (he's tanky, you need to smash through like 2.4 effective PCHP post-Justice Shield).  This means that the *DUNGEON* teams' invincibility goes off in Great Gospel because you didn't kill Aeris, so you will have to outlast 5-10 turns of fully invincible Dungeon team nonsense.

Haze spamming every turn just *might* get you through it (is it a Djinn release?  Does it cost a ton of MP?) although Tidus can still throw up Hastega and Turn Break'd Jane/SS might still enable a brief opening for the invincibility not to be up and for Raquel to go on a giant Intrude Chain...  but if Haze spamming is a strategy I'm not sure how Ivan is even rankable, MT Invincibility to everything cheeses everyone short of Lady even without Jane to speed it up.

[dude789]

I don't think you can spam Djinn moves every turn. I think it takes a turn to reset them at least or you have to summon them and wait for them to come back. I haven't played GS in a while though so I could be wrong.