Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 101

[Nephrite]

"Another has entered the final realm... Well then, let's pull out all the stops for you and anyone else who gets here!"


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.

Team Djinn | Lenneth, Ivan, Jane, Sacred Slayer (Life), Marco
[Ivan: Flash, Zephyr, Breeze, Smog, Squall, Kite and Hail| Wind Mage] Ivan's Djinni
Floor 10: Monad

"Ah, but this wouldn't be any fun if you just lost immediately, would it? Let's see your hopes dashed against the rocks... If you can even reach me! Haaaahahahahaha!"

**The team's Floor 8 & 9 bonuses are gone!

***The team gets first strike against the first two bosses and Ragu may not use One Trillion Degrees.
Team vs. Lady and Malice Killer
*Full Heal
Team Djinn vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA4)
*Full Heal
Team Djinn vs. Laggy Fantasy Tactics Altima & Hashmalum
*Full Heal
Team Djinn vs. Margaret (P4)
*Full Heal
Team Djinn vs. Pandora (P1), Nyarlathotep, Nyx Avatar and Izanami


Team MICHAEL | T260G, Mesarthim, Yulie (Body Charge), Raynie, Marco
[T260G: Type-8 Body [OmegaBody] [EnergySupply, Magnify, PopKnight, ShootingMastery, CombatMastery & MaxwellProgram ]
*Yulie has been granted a Tiny Flower Badge!
*Marco has been granted the Chevalier Armor!
Floor 8: Maze of Trials
Team MICHAEL vs. Mascot Yuna (FFX-2)
Team MICHAEL vs. Cloud of Darkness, Zeromus and Chaos
Team MICHAEL vs. Boss Timelord, Belial (No 4D Pocket), Ultimecia and FF5 Time Mage
*Full Heal
Team MICHAEL vs. Jenna Angel (When defeated, CT is set to 0 and is replaced with Isolde, then again with Xorn, then again with Profound Darkness)
Team MICHAEL vs. Fou-lu (When defeated, CT is set to 0 and is replaced with Persephone (WA5), then then with Orphan, then Zophar)


Team Pyro | Bartz, Hilda, Eiko, Jean, Marco (Body Charge)
[Bartz: (Mime) !Summon !Mix !Time (Red Mage) (Chemist) (Ninja) (Monk)]
Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"
Team Pyro vs. Katt, Rand, Bow, Nina2, Deis2, Jean, and Spar
Team Pyro vs. Jude, Cecilia (Wa1o), Brad Evans, Virigina, Dean and Clarissa
Team Pyro vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Anastasia, Kurnado and Blanca
Team Pyro vs. Crono, Marle, Frog, Ayla, Robo and Lucca
Team Pyro vs. Squall, Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna


Team Dhyer | [ Nina, Ursula, Scias ] (Ryu, Cray (Items) & Ershin) (Synergy)
[Floor 4a: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Dhyer vs. Hahn, General Leo, Gadwin, Luna and Mareg
Team Dhyer vs. Tia, Lexis, Dekar, Lufia 1 Artea and L1 Selan
Team Dhyer vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel and Chisato
Team Dhyer vs. Palom, Porom, Tellah, Cid and Yang
Team Dhyer vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis


Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, however the healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle.

Neo Speed - The effective speed of one character is increased by 10% and increases 20% each time that character takes a turn, this effect caps at 2x base speed. The speed of this character cannot be increased in any way, nor can this character grant or be granted turns via any manner. If the character dies the speed is removed and cannot be regained.

Body Charge - Increases damage and effective speed of a character by 1.3x and decreases damage to them to .7x.

Synergy [BoF4] - Three PCs out at once, may switch on turns individually. Game over!!! if all PCs are incapacitated. Cray is allowed the use of storebought, consumable items within reason.

[Pyro]

My team has two main ways of ending fights fast and hard:

- Odin. MT Instant Death and perfect once it goes off. And it will go off (Reset exists). Technically this ignores ID immunity and is only subject to "Heavy Typage" but I would ignore this distinction for the sake of simplicity (and otherwise it's kind of insane good murder-every-PC-ever sort of deal)
- Bahamut. MT non-elemental defense-piercing damage that hurts like a bitch. This can be double'd via Quick, or, if it's desirable it can be x2.5'd by Entrance from Hilda (Marco TT's to Hilda for Entrance, Bartz splodes everything)

Beyond that Eiko has MT Reflect+Protect (or Shell/Protect, if that's preferable) in Carbuncle. Bartz can Hastega as part of his action chain and both help my team beat people turn 1 for initiative (mostly Hilda) and make subsequent turns very amusing. Also Slowga can be applied with that for extra "ouch". Jean is as blazingly fast as ever and Reset exists to help her status things still. Hilda brings the MT full restore/ Revival with CT while Eiko has MT full revival that does damage too, Bartz has Quick+Resource replenishing full revival, and of course Marco has revival of his own.

Team Pyro vs. Katt, Rand, Bow, Nina2, Deis2, Jean, and Spar:
Turn order: (Note that Deis is ONLY faster than Marco if you use 25% /stdev, 15 or 20 won't do. This is just to demonstrate that even with said 25% assumption, I still win)
Jean -> Deis -> Marco -> Bartz -> Katt -> Bow -> Eiko -> Hilda -> Jean/Spar/Nina2 -> Rand

I think Marco is faster than Deis, but even if he isn't... Deis Deaths either Marco or Bartz. If she does Marco, Bartz is still getting a turn and may just Reset until she misses Marco. If she does Bartz, Marco TT's Hilda to revive Bartz with CT so he gets his turn where he would have. Even ignoring Reset, Bartz getting a turn is bad juju for a team with no ID immunity due to Odin.

Team Pyro vs. Jude, Cecilia (Wa1o), Brad Evans, Virigina, Dean and Clarissa:
Jude -> Jean -> Virginia -> Marco -> Clarissa -> Eiko -> Cecilia -> Dean -> Brad.
Jude and Virginia aren't killing either Marco or Bartz. Only Clarissa and Jude can immune ID (and Jude may have to sacrifice levels?).  Bahamut the team down. Or Petrify Jude/Clarissa and THEN Odin. Either way works. Ceci's magic suction trick stops neither Odin nor Bahamut since they are not spells. This is fairly clear from the holes Parasol has in-game. Worst comes to worst (and this won't happen) then she is the only one left standing and can be handled via Dispel/Grand Slam.

Team Pyro vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Anastasia, Kurnado and Blanca:
Jean -> Marco -> Bartz -> Everyone
Bahamuts. Hungry dragons eating harmonixers. Alternatively lots of Jean/Bartz status and then clean up.

Team Pyro vs. Crono, Marle, Frog, Ayla, Robo and Lucca:
Crono -> Jean-> Marco -> Bartz -> Ayla -> Eiko -> Rest of team CT
Odin. Or Bahamuts/Syldra/physicals to get rid of everyone sans Luca and use her to restore resources if it was really necessary. FUN FACT: Marco insta-doubles Robo and Marle if he TT's to Bartz and gets Hastega'd. And borderline insta-doubles Lucca.

Team Pyro vs. Squall, Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna:
Jean->Marco->Bartz-> Rest.
Cloud immunes ID but not stone. Shoat Cloud -> Odin. Or Entranced Bahamut'ing works.

[SnowFire]

By "the first two bosses" does that mean Lady & Malice Killer, or the first two battles?  If it's just the SH3 fight, then Djinn likely is getting murdered by Ragu dispatching Jane before she gets a turn.  Well.  Maybe.  Tide:
RFX: 658* (approx. 299% average speed. In practice this number is multiplied by a modifier of 1.5x, effectively giving him 987 RFX or 674.6% average)

What does this mean?  Why is it modified by 1.5x in practice?  Should we use the 674% figure or the 300% figure?

Team Djinn vs. Lady and Malice Killer
Team Djinn doesn't need first strike to win this.  Follow Me -> 3x Lenneth turns + Ivan turn = dead Lady.  Team can handle Killer easily enough after that.
*Full Heal
Team Djinn vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA4)
See questions above before thinking about this one.

[Dark Holy Elf]

You should use the 674% figure, yeah. The first stat is the one listed, but near as we can tell it's got some sort of hidden RFX up multiplier. Anyway yeah, Ragu is a speed god by the standards of WA4 bosses.

[Pyro]

Neph indicated that Djinn got the initiative turn vs. Ragu, as well.

[SnowFire]

Well then, assuming Team Djinn gets a first strike against Ragu4....

Team Djinn vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA4)
Jane uses Sucker (unless Ragu has FUNNY POSE immunity),  Ivan uses the -90% damage move, Lenneth does 3x Might Reinforce beatdown.  Ragu flails around ineffectively; if OTD was OPB it still wouldn't help too much vs. the Ivan cheese. 

We now enter the misty twilight of figuring out where Golden Sun turns start and end to see when Ragu has a chance to actually do notable damage, since he needs to get damage in before Ivan can use his damage reduction move or Sacred Slayer turn shifts one on over.  I propose that, in a ticks system that starts at 0, turn-based games turns last from 50-150 (turn 1), 150-250 (turn 2), 250-350 (turn 3), etc. with a special dispensation for the first strike as letting the turn 0 dungeon team use an ability that will last through turn 1 as well.  Average speed ATB characters gain 1 initiative per turn out of 100 (a la FFT) and thus would go on turn 100-200-300, 130% speed gets 1.3 ticks per turn and thus go on 77-154-231, etc.

Ragu4: 15-30-45-59-74-89-104-119-134-148-163-178-193-207-223-237-252-267-282-297
Ivan (no Sacred Slayer, wildly guessing Ivan as 120% turn-based speed, and ignoring ATB advantage for the sake of not having him drift through GS turns): 0-83-183-283

So, if Sacred Slayer is somehow distracted or something, it's not until Team Djinn has finished both his initiative turn and his turn 1 that Ragu even has a chance to push - and likely doesn't do much, he OHKOs Jane but surely Sacred Slayer can get in a turn somewhere from 150-178 to turn Shift Ivan, since SS can set up their initiative fairly easily, and it's a close call anyway.  On Golden Sun turn 3, Ragu has more of a shot, as he gets 3 turns before Ivan, so if his attack can OHKO Ivan he might even race Sacred Slayer.  I'm normally skeptical of SS initiative micromanagement, but against someone like Ragu it makes more sense, and again SS can theoretically math out hwo they turn shift to ensure that only Suckering-Jane bites it and Ivan gets up his -90% buff up in time (which also nerfs Ragu's counters).  Ragu's evasion screws with Lenneth's damage a bunch, but oh well.  Seems at least theoretically possible Djinn might be able to kill Ragu in just 2 turns + initiative round anyway.

Leaning pass, although not allowing Sacred Slayer initiative micromanagement to set up an extra fast Ivan buff would make this team need to KO Ragu before that turn 3 3-turns-pre-Ivan.

EDIT: See below, all this analysis is based on a falsehood and Ivan's spells not being clearly explained, ignore.  (Flash apparently has initiative.)

Team Djinn vs. Margaret (P4)
Margaret is threatening due to Mind Charge -> Megiadolan spam (+ Power Charge-> Hassou Tobi), and Ivan's -90% damage move seems to own that strategy hardcore, even if Margaret is immune to damage half the time.  EDIT: Except I see that Margaret is 99 AGI.  Uh.  Okay then, Team Djinn doesn't have a defend command, and that sure sounds like it outraces a 60 AGI average so Margaret will go before Ivan gets the shield up.  Boom.  SECOND EDIT: Except that 99 AGI is worthless except for evade.  See Pyro!

[Pyro]

Does Margaret's agility even influence turn order turn 1? Even then it's completely pointless past turn 1.

Honestly I think Djinn's biggest problems are Ragu's evade and the 3 bosses at the end (+ Nyx once those are done). Could get tricky there.

[SnowFire]

Oh good point.  That was just me being forgetful and not having actually played P4.  Yes, OK's notes are that all bosses are really average-speed-losing-tiebreakers, which makes that fight back into a laugher.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Djinn vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA4)

One thing to note it that Ivan's 90% MT damage reduction move can not be spammed every turn, so there may be scenarios where it just wears off and can't be used again. Now...I guess you can assume that if it resets every 3 turns, that SS and Marco giving up their turns effectively gets to count for turn regenaration. Of course, Ragu has...a lot of HP (20 PC HP) and renders Lenneth's damage ineffective with that evade, so...if SS needs to constantly shift, just may run out of MP.

[SnowFire]

I thought it was only the perfect damage immunity move that was a Djinn release?

[dude789]

Also I believe Jane's Sucker is based off of level so if Ragu is a higher level than the WA4 team when he faces them, it's probably of dubious use.

[Dhyerwolf]

I thought it was only the perfect damage immunity move that was a Djinn release?

Perfect damage immunity was one of the GS 2 Djinn's. That said, I really don't remember how GS 1 worked, so I could be wrong on that (but if the Djinn's were spammable every turn, they would have been the damage average for Ivan and Mia in one of the averages because the massive overlevelling needed to get some skills. So...I thought they weren't spammable every turn).

[superaielman]

Unleashing a Djinn in GS1 had a cooldown period- you lost the stat boost when you did the unleash, and had to wait a few turns for it to be usable again.

[MC50]

In both games, the cooldown period only activated if you used a summon. Then the Djinn used would automatically re-set after a few turns.

However, if you wanted to, say, spam Flash ingame, you could also spend a turn to re-set a Djinn you have used.

This means that one turn, you would take 90% Less damage, but the next turn Flash would not be active and you would take full damage. The turn after you could use it again for 90% reduction. As Flash has initiative, this was still pretty effective. You could combine it with other less effective Djinn like Granite.

To clarify
 - The cooldown period is only activated if you use a summon
 - Otherwise, you have to spend a turn in order to make the Djinn usable again.

[SnowFire]

dude, it's Floor 10, Jane is probably lvl. 90-99.  And "lower level" does not mean "instantly misses" as discussed before, it means there begins to be a chance Sucker can miss, even if Jane is only lvl. 70 if she hasn't died yet that's a 70% chance of Sucker hitting, which is fine when Sacred Slayer exists and can toss Jane another attempt at worst.  Note that according to MagicFanatic, lvl. 99 Jane had a 100% hit rate on WAACF Ragu (also lvl. 99).  F10 certainly is "overlevelling to defeat all the superbosses possible" time so Jane probably is in fact lvl. 99.

Of course if Ragu4 does in fact have Funny Pose immunity that could change things!

super: I'm familiar with how Djinn work.  The question is if the -90% damage move is a Djinn release at all.  It was hyped before as if it was spammable and thus more useful than the perfect damage immunity move.

Ninja'd by MC50: So can you or someone else definitively say that the -90% damage move is actually a Djinn release?

[Tide]

Because Snowfire demanded. I have never thought the day would come for FUNNY POSE hype but anyway. Ragu does indeed have Provoke immunity.  He is in fact, immune to every character type status. HEX type status can affect him though. Time to hype that 2500 damage POIZN.

[SnowFire]

Ahahaha.  Okay then.  With no need to kill Jane first, Ragu is way more deadly and probably executes Ivan.  What's Ivan's durability to physical beatdown?  Does he have any way to buff it *aside* from his -90% damage move (which might be more limited than expected and eating up more SS turns so he can reset himself if it in fact is a Djinn release)?  Team Djinn might be going down in flames after all against Ragu4.

As a side note, for people who want to vote, the write-up of Ivan really needed to be super-clear on this for his spells & abilities.  The difference between a spell being a Djinn release & not is huge, this should be entirely explicit so there aren't games around figuring it out.

[SnowFire]

23:54] <RandomKesaranPasaran> Be more specific (likely yes)
[23:54] <Elecman> The damage -90% one or whatever. I don't pay too close attention because :goldensun:
[23:54] <RandomKesaranPasaran> oh
[23:54] <RandomKesaranPasaran> Yes.
[23:55] <RandomKesaranPasaran> Also initiative so I'm not sure what Sucker is supposed to do?
[23:55] <RandomKesaranPasaran> Somebody help me out here
[23:55] <SnowFire> Wait, Ivan's -90% damage thing has INITIATIVE?!
[23:55] <RandomKesaranPasaran> y

So basically I've been wasting my time before.  Team Djinn cruises against Ragu4 then but fails anyway for terrible documentation and I give up on attempting to analyze it.

[Pyro]

I would withold judgement on Djinns team till he goes over it. Ragus evade and that last fight look like they may be problems though.

Team MICHAEL may have issues with that chain fight series. Mesa may allow for resource replenishment via stasisrune. I don't know.

[MC50]

-90% Damage is Flash, yes. It's a Djinn release. It has initiative, but you can't spam it every turn.

[SnowFire]

He actually can because Sacred Slayer just throws extra turns to Ivan, allowing him to reset.  If SS focuses purely on turn shifting Ivan, Ivan should be getting 3x his normal number of turns, so he can reset his Djinn and ensure that Ragu is totally neutered the entire time.  Ragu never escapes a -90% damage lock and his damage becomes ~.10 PCHP at best, which when 6x-7x turns is still easily kept in check by a single Lenneth heal.  The only way Djinn ever loses is if Sacred Slayer runs out of MP.  Vaguely possible since Ragu's evade screws with Lenneth's damage pretty fiercely, but it's Floor 10, Sacred Slayer should be pretty overlevel.  Endgame Sacred Slayer has 10 Turn Shifts, aftergame should have anywhere between 13-16, and allegedly Ivan has an MP restoration Djinn he can use for one shot (probably can't loop it without the Emulator passive bonuses though).

[Random Consonant]

While a PP restoration Djinn does exist, Ivan does not have it on his current setup.  It's kind of cruddy PP healing anyways, the best thing that can be said about it is that it's MT.

[SnowFire]

Anyway, despite my claim to stop analyzing Djinn's team, I'll say for the record that he should beat the Altima / Hashmalum fight as well.  Hashmalum is an effective ~1.5 PCHP or so at best if Damage Split constantly kicks in it sounds like from the stat topic, and Follow Me-> 3x Lenneth turns (despite her damage dropping a tad with Gungnir Hrist in the averages now...) should be able to handle that, especially since the killing combo ignores Damage Split.  Afterward, Bloody Angel All-Ultima spamming + Wall would normally screw over Djinn's team with its weak MT healing, but hey that -90% damage move loop saves the day again, forcing Altima back to Grand Cross spam which is likely dealt with via Lenneth / Marco having status curing (possibly Ivan as well?).

So yeah, Djinn should beat the first 4 fights at least.  For Pandora, one of her abilities is:
AllGuard: Nullifies attacks for one round.
Is that MT?  Does it too have initiative?  If so, Djinn will have to leave Pandora for last...  Pandora1's statuses don't note their hit rates, either.  I assume they're 100% and single target?

[Dhyerwolf]

So, it's really hard to imagine Neph passing this. I wasn't too sure on Djinn, and Djinn could basically do double the damage a round and did not have a revival limitation on a PC and had better floor 8 boosts. That 8 boss chain...probably some something like 100 PC HP between the two of them, and none of them have good free damage (Raynie can use her best 7 times. T2 can use her 60% PC HP 12 times in a row. Mesa can heal 8 times and then fall over dead permanently. Yulie has damage, but at the cost of HP. I just can't fathom. Team Dungeon here.

Team Pyro | Bartz, Hilda, Eiko, Jean, Marco (Body Charge)
[Bartz: (Mime) !Summon !Mix !Time (Red Mage) (Chemist) (Ninja) (Monk)]
Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"
Team Pyro vs. Katt, Rand, Bow, Nina2, Deis2, Jean, and Spar- Yep, Marco is the fastest-TTs to Odin
Team Pyro vs. Jude, Cecilia (Wa1o), Brad Evans, Virigina, Dean and Clarissa- This also seems pretty easy
Team Pyro vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Anastasia, Kurnado and Blanca- And this
Team Pyro vs. Crono, Marle, Frog, Ayla, Robo and Lucca
Team Pyro vs. Squall, Cecil, Terra, Cloud, Zidane and Aeonless Yuna- Very easy

[Nephrite]

Dhyer's matches are up.

EDIT: I did equip T260 with Energy Supply, which lets her restore 50 WP to herself. It may not matter, but it's there! I'll do an actual writeup of all the matches tonight, although I do think I lean towards losing unless I can make up some amazing StasisRune hype.