Idiot of the day 2013: Wishing that the Mayans were right.

[AndrewRogue]

You're not negating existing work on the battle engine...

Uh. I'm gonna debate that.

If you make a musical RPG, you damn well better have a rhythm based combat system.

[Shale]

Radically changing the structure of your game after years-upon-years of development is how Duke Nukem Forever happens.

[Lady Door]

At this stage in development -- trailers released, code time put in, release date on a schedule -- it makes no sense to overhaul the project to cater to a trend or a whim.

Hell, it's not like Squenix hasn't done the whole FF<X>-2 thing. They could always spend the capital to create a product in parallel, a FFXV-2 or FFXV: The Musical. Or DLC. Or what the hell ever.

Working in Marketing, and working with devs, I've come to understand that no one knows what the fuck they're doing. But it is definitely the job of the director to make sure whatever everyone is doing is toward a steady goal, and to set aside the "what ifs" that pop up once you've reached the point of no return. Those points, in any well managed project, are well defined; the director's JOB is to stick to it.

[Shale]

Also:

(a) Nomura has been in charge of the project from day one; if he wanted it to be a musical, he could have lobbied for that during, I don't know, the friggin' Bush administration. It's not like they just now asked his opinion for the first time.

(b) He's Tetsuya Friggin' Nomura. For better or worse (it's worse) he's got an inside track to getting games greenlit. If he wants to do a musical RPG, he doesn't have to force that into an existing project.

[Cmdr_King]

At this stage in development -- trailers released, code time put in, release date on a schedule -- it makes no sense to overhaul the project to cater to a trend or a whim.

Well really that's just it; none of those things were true circa January of this year.  In fact, circa January of this year, people were convinced the game wasn't actually being made, and the only official knowledge beyond the basic premise (some character names, the fact it's an action game, the yakuza prince angle) that was being given out was "yes we are still making it".

So at that point the game more or less could be whatever it wanted without taking too big a hit.  At the same time, Square desperately needs a good game to come out of japan and be a smashing hit.  And that's why this is a bad idea, anything to delay releasing basically the only title anyone was remotely hyped up for would be bad mojo.  But that's not idiocy, it's just getting carried away.

Andrew: why?  It's not a music game, it's a musical.  Large swathes of the actual music would be completely unable to support a rhythm game, because it's designed for human voices to convey meaning, not emotionally-exciting beats.

[Grefter]

You say that like music doesn't normally have a vocal component that dos that.  For every Electric Six that exists that straight up say they write songs about nonsense saying whatever ends cool there is a Metallica - One written, Pink Floyd or fuck even Coheed and Cambria in existence.

Also want a jarring mediocre RPG experience?  Have a game with a cool concept that isn't followed through with all the way raced on top of a standard RPG.

Also just because we didn't know about it doesn't change how far through production it was (whenever it was).

[NotMiki]

Except that the IotD in this case isn't Nomura, and isn't even "Of the Day" anymore; it's Square-enix for announcing a game way before they actually started serious development (they actually started serious development as of like 2 years ago or some such.)  They announced it ludicrously early, which Square-enix, at least for a while, had a knack for doing. 

http://kotaku.com/according-to-its-director-kingdom-hearts-3-was-reveale-513072870

I'll just leave this here.

[Cmdr_King]

Logically Kingdom Hearts 3 will be released in late 2015, preceeded in 2014 by Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 Remix.  If it's later than that, then we'll bitch about being revealed too early.

e:

You say that like music doesn't normally have a vocal component that dos that.  For every Electric Six that exists that straight up say they write songs about nonsense saying whatever ends cool there is a Metallica - One written, Pink Floyd or fuck even Coheed and Cambria in existence.

*shrug* Les Mis was specified as inspiration for the move.  I tend to think this wouldn't make a very good rhythm game.  Something like this is better, yes, but still not really good for the format.

You certainly could tailor the music specifically to be gameplay friendly but honestly?  Why.  You're just making it gimmicky at that point rather than making a musical because it's a good fit.

[Meeplelard]

So at that point the game more or less could be whatever it wanted without taking too big a hit.  At the same time, Square desperately needs a good game to come out of japan and be a smashing hit.  And that's why this is a bad idea, anything to delay releasing basically the only title anyone was remotely hyped up for would be bad mojo.  But that's not idiocy, it's just getting carried away.

The bolded part is basically what I was trying to say, yes.  It happens, and it's not like Nomura was pushing really that heavily for it.  He got a little obsessed in something recently, and everyone else talked him out of it.  I wouldn't be surprised if in the interview, he looks back at himself and laughs because he himself admits it was silly.

You also hit the whole "in January, we seriously thought the game was cancelled, because this many years and we know nothing" point I was trying to say.  I'll just reference what yo said, but add in all we did know about FFv13 at the time was, from 2 "Oooh look at the pretty!" trailers was "The main character is a prince named Noctis, he can summon swords!" and "This is an ARPG."  This is about as much as we knew of FF13 when it's first trailer was released, which was just "Meet the new main, she's a female Cloud with pink hair, and she has TIME POWERS!"

I think people are looking at me as trying to defend Nomura's actions as being good.  I'm not; I'm highlighting why they aren't "IotD" Material, more just "Ok, that's just silly."  Getting carried away happens, it happened to Nomura, everyone else in Square-enix talked him out of it, seemingly fairly fast at that, they moved on.  Also worth noting it's IGN stating "he had full intention of doing that!", and it's not an actual quote by Nomura, so they could be blowing it out of proportion, but whatever, that's minor. 

Also, this article is apparently made in June, shortly after the E3 Trailer was made...dunno if that's relevant, but just pointing that out.


Tangentially, the KH3 thing?  Sounds like typical Square-enix being Square-enix with their "hey guys, let's announce a game that isn't coming out for a while yet, because hype!"  I mean, really, the FFv13 -> FF15 thing was big enough for E3 alone.  At least Nomura had the decency to admit it was probably too early, though really don't know whose decision that is.

[AndrewRogue]

Also want a jarring mediocre RPG experience?  Have a game with a cool concept that isn't followed through with all the way raced on top of a standard RPG.

Pretty much this. You are pretty much literally wasting an idea to have a musical game and not build it into the core of the gameplay.

To be fair, it doesn't have to be a rhythm game. That's just the obvious one. A karaoke game would be another obvious pick.

Slapping a musical plot onto a bare bones standard RPG is gimmicky. It is a hook with literally no purpose besides "I felt like doing a musical." Build it into the core conceits of the game, though, and you have an interesting and cohesive experience. The ENTIRE GAME IS BASED AROUND MUSIC. Ignoring this with your battle system is seriously silly.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I feel bad for the localization team that now has to try and come up with lyrics for every language they release the game in.

[AndrewRogue]

Yeah. A localization of such a game would pretty much be doomed from the get go.

[Grefter]

Not sure if know where to get translation of Le Miz in many languages.

Edit - That was all just for that joke, but being srs, that is why I think you could totally get away with doing Der Ring des Nibelungen since you just leave it as is and subtitle like a mofo.

Nichest of niche, but so it goes.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

If you're going niche you can probably get away with subtitles.  You're not going to make AAA money with Japanese-only audio, though.

[Grefter]

One would hope a Ring Cycle game would be in German.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

The last time I remember that Japan did the Ring Cycle it was decidedly not in German.

[Cmdr_King]

Japan being japan, Final Fantasy: The Musical might well be in english to start with.

Andrew: Gameplay is merely one aspect of video games as a medium.  In the same way that editing, camera angles, and set design are not always the best tools to tell a story otherwise suited to cinema, sometimes gameplay will not significantly impact the story of a game.  While you have to take care that it doesn't negatively impact the story, and is competent in its own right, otherwise if you have a story concept not meaningfully impacted by gameplay, it's to your detriment to try and force the issue.

But say you really wanted to for Final Fantasy: The Musical.  You can use the gameplay to enhance the work without having it revolve around the musical aspects of the game.  For example, you might choose a stage play aesthetic, and battles would have an element of choreography to compliment them.  Or have a sort of momentum mechanic in the flow of battles, with segmented music that can compliment the tone.  Perhaps take a page from Bastion's book, with a bit of musical narration for battles. 
The trouble is you're conflating "Musical RPG" with "Music Game".  A musical is just using song to convey narrative, and conveying narrative is sort of The Point in an RPG of this type, so blending the two isn't an inherently gimmicky move, just novel.

[AndrewRogue]

Japan being japan, Final Fantasy: The Musical might well be in english to start with.

Andrew: Gameplay is merely one aspect of video games as a medium.  In the same way that editing, camera angles, and set design are not always the best tools to tell a story otherwise suited to cinema, sometimes gameplay will not significantly impact the story of a game.  While you have to take care that it doesn't negatively impact the story, and is competent in its own right, otherwise if you have a story concept not meaningfully impacted by gameplay, it's to your detriment to try and force the issue.

But say you really wanted to for Final Fantasy: The Musical.  You can use the gameplay to enhance the work without having it revolve around the musical aspects of the game.  For example, you might choose a stage play aesthetic, and battles would have an element of choreography to compliment them.  Or have a sort of momentum mechanic in the flow of battles, with segmented music that can compliment the tone.  Perhaps take a page from Bastion's book, with a bit of musical narration for battles. 
The trouble is you're conflating "Musical RPG" with "Music Game".  A musical is just using song to convey narrative, and conveying narrative is sort of The Point in an RPG of this type, so blending the two isn't an inherently gimmicky move, just novel.

Strictly speaking, you could make a movie that is one big, silent text scroll. That doesn't mean it isn't (in general, before someone points out an art project that did just this) completely wasting the medium. If you have a story concept that you can't meaningfully impact with gameplay, then there is something to be said for the fact that you might be working in the wrong medium.

This isn't to say you CAN'T do that and have a project that turns out well. You can. I'm simply saying that if you leave the elements disconnected, there're decent odds that another medium might well be a more fitting home for what you're trying to do.

And yes, you can do a lot of aesthetic things to tie it together better. You could probably make a perfectly decent game by mashing musical plot and bog standard jRPG gameplay together. But you're still wasting a serious opportunity to really tie the entire game around a central idea.

I'm still not really sure where the issue with combining music/rhythm game based gameplay is coming from here. I mean, yeah, I Dreamed a Dream isn't a great rhythm game track.

It also isn't a good battle theme.

[Cmdr_King]

Because at that point you're asking the bulk of the music to be a) good lyrically, b) good musically, c) convey narrative intelligibly, d) be a good battle theme, and e) sync with rhythm controls in an achievable way.  You're placing so many restrictions on the music you run serious risk of repetition.  As well, parts of the qualifications are contradictory; you're asking the player to both actively input in time with the rhythm and grasp both narrative and poetic meaning from the song.  In essence, asking someone to play a song they're hearing for the first time.
It could work, but you're significantly decreasing the chances it will.

Otherwise we've had this discussion.  Gameplay is not the sole narrative advantage of video games, and gameplay does not have to 'tell' the story to be an effective narrative tool.  You disagree, we've long since reached impasse. 

[superaielman]

Gods above, shut up about FF15 or take it to another topic please.

[Grefter]

At this point it is just general game design theory stuff.  I don't think you need to have a narrative driven piece for combat or even have interaction with the music directly drive the combat to tie music in to it thematically (something like what thy do with Bit Trip Runner could work where what you do impacts the music).

For the topic, here we go ripped straight from the front page of gamefaqs http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/634491-grand-theft-auto-v/67232890

[Captain K.]

I don't know that that qualifies as IotD.  There was some actual sensible discussion in that topic.  By Gamefaqs standards anyway.

[superaielman]

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/private_school_vs_public_school_only_bad_people_send_their_kids_to_private.html

It's now time for an incredible pile of shit. This article pisses me off immensely. Let's count the ways it goes wrong:

1.  Starts the article by admitting to having no knowledge or research done on the subject, and states a bold opinion. Oh boy.  Accusing everyone who sends their children to private schools of being morally bankrupt? Well, that's incredibly dumb and a really broad statement to boot.

2. Where she says that you shouldn't care if your kids get a bad education. *what the fuck?* She doesn't support this with research or facts, but with a really vague appeal to the 'common good'. This argument and idiotic lines of thought like this lead to forced busing, which helped to create a massive amount of white and income flight out of US cities. Talk about not knowing your history.

3.  Dismissing the need for special schools for any reason. I had a close friend who would not have graduated high school if he couldn't have gone to a special private school just for LD students. The way she waives that off is astoundingly arrogant. Dismissing private school for religious reasons is also incredibly bad form. Sorry that some people have some values they want to pass onto their children.

4.  Something she doesn't touch on at all in the article: Safety/mental well being. Clearly the author had no problems with either bullying or violence in her school. Going to a school with a (somewhat minor) gang violence problem *sucked*, and I would not wish that on anyone. It speaks to the author's biases and her own educational background that she doesn't even consider this.

5. She makes a really generalized appeal about how schools are for learning outside the classroom!!! Wonderful.  She ignores that US schools are *still* pretty segregated by SES (and race). http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/20/american-schools-still-he_n_1901583.html (Not an academic source but works for this).  Odds are pretty good that anyone going to a public school outside of a large city is going to receive a pretty homogenous experience.

The author does an extremely poor job constructing her argument, strawmans like crazy and wraps it up with a smug line about listening to liberal guilt. How about you fuck off and I ignore this blather instead? Thanks.

[Lady Door]

Eh, it sounds like she had a half-decent thought and took it way past the extreme. It's true, public schools would get better if involved parents would spend their money and energy making them so, and nothing motivates a rich parent like their own child being the receiving end of poor investments and disinterested teachers.

Doesn't mean they're "morally bankrupt" (WTF) or bad people. But it's Slate, so I figure the sensationalism was most of the point of publishing the article.

[Fenrir]

French Slate is actually one of my very favourite sites and I've been terribly disappointed each time I've tried the American one "because come on it can't be that bad because this should basically be the same site". Every time I'm disappointed.
Looks like they just bought the classy color and title, and changed everything else including layout.