Author Topic: Redoing an old season: S20, Week 1 (Read 1632 times)

superaielman · « **on:** January 28, 2013, 01:01:47 AM »

PD>Jade

T260G>Chaz

Nash>Agrias

Lezard>Rikku (Snowfire tiebreak)

We had four different champs. Now onto S20!

Godlike:

Kefka (FF6) vs Anastasia (WA2)
Nate (Pers) vs Endora (OB)
Jecht (FFX) vs Terra (FF6)
Rubicant (FF4) vs Yuna (FFX)

Heavy:

Claude (SO2) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC)
Roufas (SaGa) vs Baralai (FFX-2)
Kanon (WA2) vs Fayt (SO3)
Max (SF1) vs Neifirst (PS2)

Middle:

Ryudo (G2) vs Aila (S3)
Elaine (S3) vs Mizuki (S4)
Eileen (S1) vs Vivi (FF9)
Blanca (SH2) vs Taya (SF2)

Light:

Rude (FF7) vs Jogurt (SF1)
Nikki (CC) vs Algus (FFT)
Relm (FF6) vs Radius (CC)
Solt (CC) vs Etna (Disgaea)

superaielman · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2013, 01:10:59 AM »

Godlike:

Kefka (FF6) vs Anastasia (WA2)
Nate (Pers) vs Endora (OB)- Dark weakness. Goodbye Nate.
Jecht (FFX) vs Terra (FF6)- No stone.
Rubicant (FF4) vs Yuna (FFX)- Ugly.

Heavy:

Claude (SO2) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC)- Hiro has no real way to chip, and runs out of MP before he can overwhelm Claude's healing otherwise.
Kanon (WA2) vs Fayt (SO3)- *flush*
Max (SF1) vs Neifirst (PS2)- Better.

Middle:

Ryudo (G2) vs Aila (S3)- Headache. Aila can be heal locked fairly eaisly, but she may be able to run Ryudo out of SP.
Elaine (S3) vs Mizuki (S4)- I *think* she just avoids the heal lock? This is really close.
Eileen (S1) vs Vivi (FF9)- This is not.
Blanca (SH2) vs Taya (SF2)- Kneejerk.

Light:

Rude (FF7) vs Jogurt (SF1)
Nikki (CC) vs Algus (FFT)- ANIMALS HAVE NO GOD
Relm (FF6) vs Radius (CC)- Better offense.
Solt (CC) vs Etna (Disgaea)

Pyro · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2013, 01:12:32 AM »

Godlike:

Kefka (FF6) vs Anastasia (WA2)
Nate (Pers) vs Endora (OB)
Jecht (FFX) vs Terra (FF6): She immunes Peterify, but that Delay was ridiculously good, wasn't it? And ITE?
Rubicant (FF4) vs Yuna (FFX): Doesn't even need Aeons to win.

Heavy:

Claude (SO2) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC): Faster? Claude's healing probably can't keep up with Hiro's TS.
Roufas (SaGa) vs Baralai (FFX-2): Some form of status.
Kanon (WA2) vs Fayt (SO3): Some kind of status? he gets two shots.
Max (SF1) vs Neifirst (PS2)

Middle:

Ryudo (G2) vs Aila (S3): healing > Ryudo?
Elaine (S3) vs Mizuki (S4): Speed and damage.
Eileen (S1) vs Vivi (FF9): Status. Mocks earth.
Blanca (SH2) vs Taya (SF2): Atlas 2 hurts like a bitch.

Light:

Rude (FF7) vs Jogurt (SF1)
Nikki (CC) vs Algus (FFT)
Relm (FF6) vs Radius (CC)
Solt (CC) vs Etna (Disgaea)

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2013, 01:27:19 AM »

Godlike:

Kefka (FF6) vs Anastasia (WA2): Um. Well.
Jecht (FFX) vs Terra (FF6): Terra blocking stone and doing something horrible with Ultima. Jecht may 3-2 her with delay but don't think he 3HKOs.
Rubicant (FF4) vs Yuna (FFX): Doesn't need aeons for this.

Heavy:

Claude (SO2) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC): I... think he overwhelms Energy Sword just by spamming Triple Sword, especially if Claude takes any sort of durability hit to block death.
Kanon (WA2) vs Fayt (SO3): Still vote on PC.

Middle:

Ryudo (G2) vs Aila (S3): Ryudo kinda sucks. Aila's not great either so this could be wrong, but kneejerk is that she outlasts his good damage (Ryudo needs SDS to heal lock... if he does at all).
Elaine (S3) vs Mizuki (S4): Probably 2HKOs.
Eileen (S1) vs Vivi (FF9): Assuming he can block earth while maintaining his healing, that should let him inflict some status and win from there.
Blanca (SH2) vs Taya (SF2): So Atlas 2 does... 99.9% to Blanca, wow. TAYA HEAL LOCKS WITH ONE DAMAGE PHYSICAL. (This is not a joke.)

Light:

Rude (FF7) vs Jogurt (SF1): ugly
Nikki (CC) vs Algus (FFT): *shrug*
Relm (FF6) vs Radius (CC): I dunno
Solt (CC) vs Etna (Disgaea): CC invasion.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2013, 02:08:09 AM »

Godlike:

Kefka (FF6) vs Anastasia (WA2)
Nate (Pers) vs Endora (OB)
Jecht (FFX) vs Terra (FF6)
Rubicant (FF4) vs Yuna (FFX)

Heavy:

[bClaude (SO2)[/b] vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC)- TS is 75% to average, so with Claude's defense and evade, it's probably not even outpacing Energy Sword. Also, Hiro can use it 5 times before running out of MP. Hiro does not really have anything he can use to lock down and takes quite a while to get a double. If he wants to stall, he's 2HKOed himself without any manner of healing.
Roufas (SaGa) vs Baralai (FFX-2)
Kanon (WA2) vs Fayt (SO3)
Max (SF1) vs Neifirst (PS2)

Middle:

Ryudo (G2) vs Aila (S3)
Elaine (S3) vs Mizuki (S4)
Eileen (S1) vs Vivi (FF9)
Blanca (SH2) vs Taya (SF2)

Light:

Rude (FF7) vs Jogurt (SF1)
Nikki (CC) vs Algus (FFT)
Relm (FF6) vs Radius (CC) Going with the flow here
Solt (CC) vs Etna (Disgaea)

Random Consonant · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2013, 02:15:09 AM »

Godlike:

Kefka (FF6) vs Anastasia (WA2) - um
Jecht (FFX) vs Terra (FF6) - Blocks Stone. Delay isn't as badass as it needs to be here.
Rubicant (FF4) vs Yuna (FFX) - har.

Heavy:

Claude (SO2) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC) - Overwhelms I guess. Might not, but the kneejerk is against respecting SO2 evasion and durability spread.

Middle:
Eileen (S1) vs Vivi (FF9) - can indeed null earth while maintaining a healing game.

Light:

Rude (FF7) vs Jogurt (SF1)
Nikki (CC) vs Algus (FFT)
Relm (FF6) vs Radius (CC) - don't care
Solt (CC) vs Etna (Disgaea)

Tide · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2013, 02:54:21 AM »

Godlike:

Kefka (FF6) vs Anastasia (WA2) - Horrible one sided slaughter
Jecht (FFX) vs Terra (FF6) - "Blocks Stone" pretty much seals the deal
Rubicant (FF4) vs Yuna (FFX) - Horrible one sided slaughter. Part 2.

Heavy:

Kanon (WA2) vs Fayt (SO3) - I think. Boss Kanon wins this (faster probably, 2HKOs). PC Kanon...I dunno. I think she actually gets shanked by something as silly as DEEP FREEZE.

Light:

Rude (FF7) vs Jogurt (SF1) - Jogurt
Nikki (CC) vs Algus (FFT) - Rockstar RICHARD's damage isn't so bad that he needs to fear the almighty AUTO POTION off 30 Brave. Algus also doesn't have spells, so field control to blue gives RICHARD an extra advantage.
Relm (FF6) vs Radius (CC) - Kneejerk. Similar to above, Radius' damage isn't that bad. I guess this is closer because Maneater > Algus on damage?

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2013, 04:22:26 AM »

Quote from: Random Consonant on January 28, 2013, 02:15:09 AM

Claude (SO2) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC) - Overwhelms I guess. Might not, but the kneejerk is against respecting SO2 evasion and durability spread.

Durability spread at least is pretty solid though (taking in the level of IC I did, Claude still cuts physicals by 230 assuming a mult of 1x, which is low- especially against higher end attacks). Hiro starts at 75% damage with Claude having 60% healing, so it's not even like Hiro 2HKOs off the bat through the healing (let alone with any extra defense).

superaielman · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2013, 04:43:36 AM »

Hiro's chipping is pretty ineffective as well. I think his best bet is getting a double before running out of gas, but it doesn't feel likely to happen to me.

Dhyer: Your tag is messed up on Claude/Hiro.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2013, 08:48:30 AM »

Godlike:

Kefka (FF6) vs Anastasia (WA2)
Nate (Pers) vs Endora (OB)- No vote.
Jecht (FFX) vs Terra (FF6)
Rubicant (FF4) vs Yuna (FFX)

Heavy:

Claude (SO2) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC)
Roufas (SaGa) vs Baralai (FFX-2)- Not a whole lot Roufas can do against stop spam I don't think?
Kanon (WA2) vs Fayt (SO3)
Max (SF1) vs Neifirst (PS2)- No vote.

Middle:

Ryudo (G2) vs Aila (S3)
Elaine (S3) vs Mizuki (S4)
Eileen (S1) vs Vivi (FF9)
Blanca (SH2) vs Taya (SF2)

Light:

Rude (FF7) vs Jogurt (SF1)- No vote.
Nikki (CC) vs Algus (FFT)- *skim* hm. I'm much more inclined to see CC blue as water unless demonstrably otherwise, which looks like nothing legal in FFT can spoil. Convenient.
Relm (FF6) vs Radius (CC)
Solt (CC) vs Etna (Disgaea)

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2013, 12:12:56 PM »

Godlike:

Kefka Palazzo (FF6) vs Anastasia Valeria (WA2) - UM.
Jecht (FFX) vs Terra Branford (FF6) - Missing the 3HKO -and- being unable to petrify? FFX delay isn't nearly as badass as it needs to be to guarantee a Jecht victory here.
Rubicant (FF4) vs Yuna (FFX) - Dear god, Yuna wins this with a hand tied to her ankles just with Phantom Bangle and Protect.

Heavy:

Claude Kenni (SO2) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC) - EBO Hiro likely misses the 2HKO on Claude and the better ID is useless. Tough luck.
Kanon (WA2) vs Fayt Leingod (SO3) - Boss Kanon.
Max (SF1) vs Neifirst (PS2) - EDIT: Overrated Max durability: he probably doesn't quite eke 1.2x PC HP pdur looking at numbers, and his damage falls a bit shy of 2HKOing Neifirst's 1.4x PC HP. Since Neifirst is faster and apparently her good damage is accurate (I do remember the MT missing a lot more than the ST, at least), the numbers pretty much fall in her favor, since she has a case to 2HKO and actually doesn't -have- to. Max could get lucky with crits and doubles, but he also could get unlucky and miss (evasion isn't all that much of a factor, but Neifirst isn't a zero on that front and if we're talking low ends vs. low ends, kneejerk goes for the side who's stacked favorably before these play out). Of course, I suspect my own durability score for Neifirst is pretty much the lowest it can get as a general rule of thumb, so any scaling remotely more generous than mine will tide this fight further and further to her advantage.

Middle:

Ryudo (G2) vs Aila (S3) - If Ryudo barely heal locks with SDS, holy shit Aila shuts this fight down with CLAY GUARDIAN. Ryudo just doesn't win if he's relying on his techs to -3HKO- healers, and both Aila's buffing and healing are faster than Ryudo.
Elaine (S3) vs Mizuki (S4) - Elaine is kinda fragile and sucks at damaging Mizuki. Heal-lock ahoy.
Eileen (S1) vs Vivi Ornitier (FF9) - Healing and Earth walling. His Water absorption is on his armlet, his Earth immunity is on an armor.
Blanca (SH2) vs Taya (SF2) - HEAL-LOCK BY SHINING FORCE MAGE PHYSICALS

Light:

Rude (FF7) vs Jogurt (SF1) - This is pretty.
Nikki (CC) vs Algus Sadalfas (FFT) - Nikki isn't very good, but Algus is just bad.
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs Radius (CC) - Figure Relm gives up way too much durability for a Gaia Gear/Gravity Rod game.

superaielman · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2013, 04:33:44 PM »

Dhyer: Where'd you get the figure on Triple Sword? It does 72% according to the stat topic.

(Re: the fight) Considering that Energy Sword restores 60% of Claude's HP, it really seems like Claude's fight barring Hiro having another way to pressure.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2013, 12:30:07 AM »

I'd tend to kneejerk Triple Sword considerably above 72% myself. I'm not sure what I do with the Lucia/Leo situation, but even if Lucia only counts for half a PC it has a pretty notable effect on damage.

72% would let Claude win assuming he can block ID without a notable durability hit, but I never did get notes about SO2 ID protection... bah.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2013, 12:34:24 AM »

Isn't TS pretty much only coming into play when Lucia is pretty much on the way out anyways?

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #14 on:** January 31, 2013, 12:39:20 AM »

Yep. I can see arguing that the no-Lucia average is fair to everyone but Ronfar and Jean (and Lucia herself of course).

But personally, the more I think about the match, the more I am inclined to stick with the kneejerk of damage I found impressive overwhelming healing I found crappy.

SnowFire · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2013, 02:45:13 AM »

super, you missed the one interesting point of the idea of the tourney. So who were the champions in Season 9? (Far too lazy to check myself.)

Claude (SO2) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC) - So while I'm here. What DHE says. You have to grind Energy Sword like crazy to get 60% healing, no, for all that DL Claude wants that move more than in-game Claude.

superaielman · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2013, 03:24:59 AM »

Snowfire: Kuja (...), Chaz, Justin, Rikku. If Lutz had another voter or two, he would have likely beaten the hell out of Middle.

Ignoring godlike, the lower divisions largely played out the same way. The only real rob that altered was Vivi beating Nash. (Well and Lutz, but AtL3 drawing).

Claude can block ID with the Silver Ring. I don't think SO2 has any defensive storebought accessories of note, if you go for that. SO2 accessories tend focus on elemental blocking or offense.

The pools did change some from S9 .

Ash, Songi, Lavos, Feena, T260G, Chaz

Feena almost certainly goes down, trashcan goes up. Chaz probably stays down, though he down manage to beat Ash.

Alena, Harle, Fina, Dias, Nash, Agrias

Fina and Harle almost certainly go down. Fina real bad.

Lutz, Tengaar, Destin, Setzer, Lezard, Rikku

Too many variables. Lutz is on top on paper, in practice who knows. I think Destin is a good bet to downgrade. He has a grand total of one clear win (Setzer). Lezard should sweep the field. Rikku respect means Setzer hits Light, otherwise it's Rikku who stays down.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2013, 05:09:49 AM »

Claude's healing is not great in game, but it's ST, self-target healing only. One of those things that is going to perform a lot better in a 1 on 1 duel with no items allowed (although, yeah, it's solid enough in the arena so it's not like there is not even an in game comparison).

200 uses in not a lot in SO 2 to get to max as far as things go. I guess if you hit a lot of other attacks too (and were probably more restrictive on other attacks in other games; no Yamikei clause and such).

Averaging Lucia and Leo gets TS up to 77.5% base. Claude needs to cut by 13% to prevent the 5HKO, which is possible (but general surveying of the effects at endgame gave me a 20% cut, and that falls at a level of IC that basically puts his relative defense at the lowest).

Taking a hit for blocking ID with an accessory would probably be a valid thing reason but otherwise).

SnowFire · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2013, 06:08:01 AM »

Interesting, super.

Dhyer, I probably would hit all moves with a less-grinding clause (200 uses sounds about where I topped out for endgame on key moves like the Bomber one & Mirror Slice?), but I imagine it mostly evens out, perhaps making the mages ever so slightly less scrubby.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2013, 07:12:08 AM »

200 is pretty low all things considered. Helps more for some people like Ernest who doesn't have high profiency on anything. I don't even think AonOne and Mirror Slice get up to level 2 then.

SnowFire · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2013, 08:06:54 AM »

Yes, SO2 move grinding amounts were insanely way too high in my opinion, and I leveled up practically none of my skills when going through the game.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #21 on:** February 01, 2013, 01:04:22 AM »

I certainly got the moves I used a lot to level up, but needless to say Energy Sword wasn't one such move.

Pyro · « **Reply #22 on:** February 01, 2013, 01:12:30 AM »

If it was only 200 uses I can't see arguing against the 60% healing.

Hiro isn't fast enough to Double in 5 turns, so the question is just if he can overwhelm the healing with TS. Sounds like it might be an issue if Claude's defense was high enough, which the stat topic calls out as being the case. Are you confident in those numbers, Dhyer?

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #23 on:** February 01, 2013, 04:13:18 AM »

I definitely don't think all moves need necessarily be taken at equal proficiency in the DL. For example, I definitely don't respect Ulf's Dynamite Rush in the DL, because you need to grind it when you have no reason to use it in-game whatsoever (existing moves such as Red Lotus do more damage for less SP). In theory, for DL purposes, Ulf wants you to use his SP for nothing but Dynamite Rush as soon as he learns it in-game, which would possibly let him get it up to L5, but fuck that.

Similarly, go go maxed Mirror Slice, but Energy Sword not so much. Now if someone who isn't me found Energy Sword actually worth a damn and used it enough to get it to 200, then sure, vote on Claude that way, but I'm not terribly inclined to.

For what it's worth I kneejerk respect Claude's damage more than the stat topic does, and this is possibly related to not maxing some other PCs' stuff!

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #24 on:** February 01, 2013, 04:22:28 AM »

Quote from: Pyro on February 01, 2013, 01:12:30 AM

If it was only 200 uses I can't see arguing against the 60% healing.

Hiro isn't fast enough to Double in 5 turns, so the question is just if he can overwhelm the healing with TS. Sounds like it might be an issue if Claude's defense was high enough, which the stat topic calls out as being the case. Are you confident in those numbers, Dhyer?

Extremely confident (Had a strat guide with all enemy defenses and I was able to math out the basic formula).

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Author Topic: Redoing an old season: S20, Week 1 (Read 1632 times)