Author Topic: Failing Grounds: Radiant Dawn Laguz  (Read 966 times)

SnowFire

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Failing Grounds: Radiant Dawn Laguz
« on: March 09, 2013, 04:40:34 AM »
Radiant Dawn Laguz: Are they Light, or are they Puny?  It's a question that has befuddled the minds of the DL's scholars for ages, and no agreement seems likely to be forthcoming.  The only thing that we know for sure is that they aren't any fun to stick in tournaments, due to horrific interp splits of doom and general plotlessness for most of them.  However, sometimes it's fun to screw around with weird characters in their own topic protected from the rest of the DL by heavy radiation shielding, so here we go, in the style of super's Proving Grounds topics that have way too many matches.

To make this vaguely sane, there will be several sets of matches, and each one will use a specific Laguz DL interpretation.  All the major interps will be featured.  The fixed interp is because the set of matches that are interesting varies radically between interps; there's not much point in one-sided slaughters where which side is being slaughtered depends on the interp.

Turn 1 interps
0 gauge, no items:
Laguz start with no gauge and have no items.  Prepare the failboat, they're getting doubled and not attacking any time soon.
0 gauge, Olivi Grass: Laguz still suck, but at least they eventually transform against sufficiently hapless opposition.  Everyone can transform turn 3 at the latest, non-Dragons maybe turn 2 if they were attacked.
0 gauge, Laguz Stones: EDIT: The laguz get an initiative action to use their laguz stone, but give up turn 1, since it's impossible to get ninja'd in-game with a Laguz Stone.  Still, giving up turn 1 is still potentially pretty bad.  (The version I had before Elecman & Random corrected me, which I suppose also exists: Laguz are now very swingy in Light, as they still lose horribly against enemies faster than them who beat the crap out of them while untransformed, but against enemies slower than them they "merely" give up turn 1, and have kinda sweet stats to make up for it.)

All the turn 1 interps potentially may include royal-shanking on turn 1 depending on how cruel you're feeling, but moot here, no royals.

Half-full meter interps
15 gauge, no items, pre-transformed (if desired):
Laguz have an attack command, it's amazing!  And decent stats!  But god forbid they fight a staller, or miss, or anything.  Cats in particular tend to run out of gas after turn 2, and non-Dragons have trouble starting after turn 3.
15 gauge, Olivi Grass, pre-transformed (if desired): As above, but gives non-Cat laguz some reach against low-damage healers who fear counterattacks and can just wait the laguz out if it wasn't for Olivi Grass.

You should probably hold laguz against a higher stat average that includes fully shifted laguz in it for this.


Reminder mostly C&P'd from Meeple's topic:
(Loss or gain per Turn) / (loss or gain per Battle);  first is untransformed, second is transformed:
Cat: 10/15 Gained, 5/4 Lost
Tiger, Hawk: 8/15 Gained, 4/3 Lost
Wolf, Raven: 6/10 gained, 4/3 lost
Lion: 5/10 Gained, 3/2 Lost
Red Dragon: 5/6 Gained, 2/1 Lost
White Dragon: 4/5 Gained, 2/1 Lost

Olivi Grass is +15 gauge, Laguz Stone is set to 30 & transform (but also end the turn), Laguz don't get their per-turn bonus on turn 1.

0 gauge, no items:

Lethe (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Zahaak (S5)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4)

Ena (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD)
Ena (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Ena (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3)
Ena (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Zahaak (S5)
Ena (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4)


0 gauge, Olivi Grass:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Quistis (FF8)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Cyan (FF6)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Emma (WAACF)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Regigigas (PKMN)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Chidori (P3)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Evil Gaia (G1)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Igglanova (PS4)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Alenia (S5)

Janaff vs. Quistis (FF8)
Janaff vs. Cyan (FF6)
Janaff vs. Emma (WAACF)
Janaff vs. Regigigas (PKMN)
Janaff vs. Chidori (P3)
Janaff vs. Evil Gaia (G1)
Janaff vs. Igglanova (PS4)
Janaff vs. Alenia (S5)


0 gauge, Laguz Stones:

Nealuchi vs. Rikku (FFX)
Nealuchi vs. Miranda (G3)
Nealuchi vs. Cervantes (FEA)
Nealuchi vs. Catiua (TOPSP)
Nealuchi vs. Chu-Chu (XG)
Nealuchi vs. Noel (SO2)
Nealuchi vs. Labrynthia (WAXF)
Nealuchi vs. Mustadio (FFT)

Gareth vs. Rikku (FFX)
Gareth vs. Miranda (G3)
Gareth vs. Cervantes (FEA)
Gareth vs. Catiua (TOPSP)
Gareth vs. Chu-Chu (XG)
Gareth vs. Noel (SO2)
Gareth vs. Labrynthia (WAXF)
Gareth vs. Mustadio (FFT)


15 gauge, no items, pre-transformed:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tifa (FF7)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Miranda (LoD)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Titania (FEs)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Red Mage (FF1)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Wil (FE7)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nanami (S2)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tim (WA2)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4)

Skrimir vs. Tifa (FF7)
Skrimir vs. Miranda (LoD)
Skrimir vs. Titania (FEs)
Skrimir vs. Red Mage (FF1)
Skrimir vs. Wil (FE7)
Skrimir vs. Nanami (S2)
Skrimir vs. Tim (WA2)
Skrimir vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4)


15 gauge, Olivi Grass, pre-transformed:

Lyre vs. Meliadoul (FFT)
Lyre vs. Jude (WA4)
Lyre vs. Lyon (FE8)
Lyre vs. Kanji (P4)
Lyre vs. Lightning (FF13)
Lyre vs. Frog (CT)
Lyre vs. Sophia (SO3)
Lyre vs. Tia (Lufia2)

Ulki vs. Meliadoul (FFT)
Ulki vs. Jude (WA4)
Ulki vs. Lyon (FE8)
Ulki vs. Kanji (P4)
Ulki vs. Lightning (FF13)
Ulki vs. Frog (CT)
Ulki vs. Sophia (SO3)
Ulki vs. Tia (Lufia2)

* Yes, Ranulf is used twice, he's the most forced Laguz by far so figured he'd be more votable.  Also the last set is rigged to be more High Light-High Middle by picking the two duelers who actually reliably double a lot.  Damnit Lyre why do you have to be sort of okay in the DL.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 08:16:28 PM by SnowFire »

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Re: Failing Grounds: Radiant Dawn Laguz
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 05:52:34 AM »
0 gauge, no items:

Lethe (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1) - Fire damage.  *Crappy* fire damage, but a 3x weakness is something. - EDIT - wait no fire weakness untransformed, right.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Lethe might even survive to transform here on turn 3!  But she doesn't OHKO, and she's probably dead by turn 4 anyway, what with Rufus's shotgun denying her counters.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3) - dat fire weakness.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1)  - Gobi somehow manages to not double an untransformed laguz, and has terrible stats.  But Lethe's defense has been tanked, and she can only strike back on turn 3.  Depressingly close.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1) - Garland's accuracy is kind of crap, and he doesn't OHKO, and once Lethe transforms he has real problems.  But he probably doubles so might win anyway.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Zahaak (S5) - Fire damage aw yeah.  Doesn't double, his damage is like a 6HKO, and would die instantly if Lethe got a turn, but think he should 2HKO here thanks to the 3x weakness.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4) - Okay, Lethe can handle this at least.

Ena (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD)
Ena (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1) - uhhhhhh.  Renewal is cutting into Lorenta's terrible non-weakness hitting damage here, and if she doubles with magic I'd still inflict the recovery time penalty on her (similar to how PWS's do it).  And Ena's resistance is sort of decent untransformed and unstoppable transformed.  I don't think Lorenta kills Ena in time.  Shameful.
Ena (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Dragon gauge means Ena pacifists this fight up.  Ena's defense is tanked so Rufus damage is better than usual.
Ena (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3) - Renewal vs. magic damage.  Aw yeah 10% HP healing.  Except Shady is DOUBLING so flaming dragon ahoy.
Ena (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1) -What.
Ena (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Zahaak (S5)
Ena (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4) - Slain by Ena's shadow clone as she busily does nothing, and she can't counter-punch it dead because her punches don't break defense.  Shameful.


0 gauge, Olivi Grass:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Quistis (FF8) - The turn 1 double whip leaves Ranulf at death's door.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Cyan (FF6) - ID at worst.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Evil Gaia (G1) - Time for the status game to go off.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Alenia (S5) - Transforms on turn 2 to stave off humiliation.  I guess Alenia1 can just spam status to make Ranulf transform on turn 3, but it's pretty crappy status.

Janaff vs. Quistis (FF8)
Janaff vs. Cyan (FF6)
Janaff vs. Evil Gaia (G1)
Janaff vs. Alenia (S5) - Pretty much the same as above.


0 gauge, Laguz Stones:

Nealuchi vs. Rikku (FFX) - Rikku really needs to kill on her turn 1 double + turn 2 attack, and my FFX damage average has nudged up a bit, so I don't think that's happening.  She can't turtle behind Al-Bhed Potions because Tear will kick in, and she'll die on a counter double + Nealuchi double.
Nealuchi vs. Miranda (G3) - Better damage than Rikku for the opening double.
Nealuchi vs. Cervantes (FEA) - Last strike for his C16 form, and his C21 form isn't as good, so.  Still pretty close, Cervantes is a tank and his PDef is what's at stake here, but his actual HP isn't great, and Nealuchi is doubling for more Tear chances.  Eh.
Nealuchi vs. Catiua (TOPSP) - Hmm, do I charge MP for doubles?  Probably, it eats two charges in game.  So Catiua wants her Princess form...  and she will have a fairly nasty opening smash...   close, will await elves.
Nealuchi vs. Chu-Chu (XG) - Tear busting healers.
Nealuchi vs. Noel (SO2) - Tear busting healers.
Nealuchi vs. Labrynthia (WAXF) - Labby 2HKOs and doesn't miss and hits the bad RES and Nealuchi doesn't 1HKO her on turn 2?!  I think.
Nealuchi vs. Mustadio (FFT) - Guns hit weakness for me, and Mustadio is fast so he shoots twice.

Gareth vs. Rikku (FFX) - Ire, depressingly enough.
Gareth vs. Miranda (G3) - Miranda has magic, too.
Gareth vs. Cervantes (FEA) - Gareth of the "still doubled after transform somehow."
Gareth vs. Catiua (TOPSP) - I give TOPSP characters a turn worth of MP & SP. Which means BOSS CATIUA can friggin' win this with Gareth's horrible horrible MDef, but sure, Priest Catiua wins handily anyway.  Don't think she even needs the 1 turn of MP, she'll kill just fine off a double on turn 2 after using an MP herb, too.
Gareth vs. Chu-Chu (XG).  Uhhhhhh.
Gareth vs. Noel (SO2) - Magic damage.  Yes, an SO2 mage is "blitzing" with doubles somehow.
Gareth vs. Labrynthia (WAXF) - ZAP
Gareth vs. Mustadio (FFT) - Subtractive Defense means Mustadio tinks after Gareth transforms.  One double isn't enough.


15 gauge, no items, pre-transformed:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tifa (FF7) - Ranulf isn't avoiding a limit.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Miranda (LoD) - Ranulf is impressing no one with his offense on turn 1.  Then he gets smited and his work undone on turn 2, and if he's somehow still alive on turn 3, he's a human and running away.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Titania (FEs) Titania has the threat range advantage, and can troll Ranulf in a number of ways such as using Javelins, but I can't see him killing her in time.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Red Mage (FF1) - Crappy Fire damage, crappy healing for stall, or RUSE.  Lots of options to slow things down a bit.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Wil (FE7) - Uh.  Depends entirely on if Ranulf doubles Wil, but checking the FE7 stat topic, Wil isn't quite as slow as I recall. I think Ranulf 3HKOs Wil, which is not enough for the cat gauge to hold out.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nanami (S2) - I don't think Nanami doubles Ranulf?  Ranulf also needs to 2HKO Nanami here.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tim (WA2) - Stallin'.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4) - I don't think Ranulf can even OHKO Nara.  Although I hope I'm wrong.

Skrimir vs. Tifa (FF7) - Also can't evade a fatal limit, which nicely chips around Resolve.
Skrimir vs. Miranda (LoD) - Smited by magic.
Skrimir vs. Titania (FEs) - Titania can't handle Resolve and Skrimir eats her with a double.
Skrimir vs. Red Mage (FF1) - I don't think Red Mage's healing holds out?  Transformed Skrimir has a good threat range so he wins tiebreaks here for me.  There's RUSE spam but despite Skrimir's suspect Skl, I don't think that's reliable enough.  COuld be wrong though.
Skrimir vs. Wil (FE7) - Just better in a slugfest.
Skrimir vs. Nanami (S2)
Skrimir vs. Tim (WA2) - is losing life, but not getting crit'd, and eventually on turn 5 or whatever Skrimir's clock runs out.
Skrimir vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4) - Munch munch.


15 gauge, Olivi Grass, pre-transformed:

Lyre vs. Meliadoul (FFT) - Protect, even if Mighty Sword is useless.
Lyre vs. Jude (WA4) - Not doubled, avoids counters, eventually Lyre has to spend a turn to huff some Olivi Grass and missing that turn should give Jude the edge in the slugfest.
Lyre vs. Lyon (FE8) - Is Lyre OHKO'd by Lyon?  If not, she can stand next to him, huff an Olivi Grass, eat a single attack and counterattack twice, then attack once...  but I'm not sure she 3HKOs Lyon of the excellent defense.  Leaning Lyon, Lyre needs 2 calls in her favor on this one.
Lyre vs. Lightning (FF13) - Fire damage that avoids counters.
Lyre vs. Frog (CT) - spam healing until Lyre needs to use Grass, then use something that won't draw a counter (Leap Slash if you think it's ranged, crappy magic otherwise...).  Frog might run out of MP, though.  Eh, leaning him.
Lyre vs. Sophia (SO3) - I don't really respect Sophia's drain game.
Lyre vs. Tia (Lufia2) - no doubles, but Tia is heal-locked, and I don't think Tia can do anything relevant on Grass turns aside from pray for Sleep.  A crit happens first, I suspect.

Ulki vs. Meliadoul (FFT) - Ulki's damage is notably better, and he might evade, and he needs more turns to have to hit the grass.
Ulki vs. Jude (WA4) - ...but he also dies horribly to bows, and for me, their analogues.  WA4 guns even have the shoot across 2 hexes thing similar to FE bows.
Ulki vs. Lyon (FE8) - Ulki should 3HKO, although he might theoretically be OHKOed as well.
Ulki vs. Lightning (FF13) - Lightning, but no Wind.  She can turtle with Medic and hope to catch up lost HP on Grass turns, but eh, Tear.
Ulki vs. Frog (CT) - Tear.
Ulki vs. Sophia (SO3)
Ulki vs. Tia (Lufia2)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:04:28 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Failing Grounds: Radiant Dawn Laguz
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2013, 03:52:47 PM »
Just for the record, if I do allow Laguz Stones, I wouldn't allow any initiative-shanking of laguz for the same reason I don't for the royals: completely impossible to happen in-game. (So the laguz stone turn would happen with initiative, but the laguz's normal first turn would then be lost.)

Will vote later.

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Random Consonant

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Re: Failing Grounds: Radiant Dawn Laguz
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2013, 06:57:07 PM »
Seconding that, they'd just go last/only be able to attack from turn 2 onwards/whatever but still get to benefit from their transformed stats on turn 1 so.

Will fill this out gradually

0 gauge, no items:

Lethe (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD) - Melee 3HKO
Lethe (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Uh yeah both Rufus's damage and durability are pretty horrid, and the fact that he's ranged makes Lethe transform faster.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3) - Meanwhile Shady's damage manages a thin veneer of respectability here.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4) - Enil struggles against the likes of Cinna.

Ena (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD)
Ena (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1) - probably "wins" through dealing more damage
Ena (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Rufus damage bad enough to get owned by Renewal
Ena (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3)
Ena (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4)


0 gauge, Olivi Grass:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Cyan (FF6) - Well this is really start at 15/30 untransformed to me so Cyan certainly doesn't have the time to anything meaningful off, let alone ID.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Regigigas (PKMN)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Evil Gaia (G1) - uh yeah
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Igglanova (PS4) - again

Janaff vs. Cyan (FF6)
Janaff vs. Regigigas (PKMN)
Janaff vs. Evil Gaia (G1)
Janaff vs. Igglanova (PS4)


0 gauge, Laguz Stones:

Nealuchi vs. Rikku (FFX) - Generally speaking I do not allow Satori Signs unless there is a claim to one.  Nealuchi *needs* Tear here because his damage otherwise is a sad sad thing.
Nealuchi vs. Miranda (G3)
Nealuchi vs. Cervantes (FEA) - In spite of no actual Cervantes notes yet, I feel oddly confident in this.
Nealuchi vs. Chu-Chu (XG) - Chu-Chu is horrid.
Nealuchi vs. Noel (SO2) - Kneejerk "Noel is just that bad despite hitting a weakness here" vote
Nealuchi vs. Mustadio (FFT) - Eeeeh sure.

Gareth vs. Rikku (FFX) - Al Bhed Potion stall best stall
Gareth vs. Miranda (G3)
Gareth vs. Cervantes (FEA)
Gareth vs. Chu-Chu (XG) - Kneejerk.
Gareth vs. Noel (SO2) - holy fucking shit Noel can barely kill Gareth burning all his MP without a single drop spared for healing and even with the bad accuracy Gareth *will* force Noel to heal.  No.
Gareth vs. Mustadio (FFT)


15 gauge, no items, pre-transformed:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tifa (FF7) - Good news for Ranulf, he starts with a Satori Sign.  Bad news is uh FE10 occult activation rate.  Will wait on this.  Edit: aaaand no.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Miranda (LoD)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Titania (FEs)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Red Mage (FF1)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Wil (FE7)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nanami (S2)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tim (WA2)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4)

Skrimir vs. Tifa (FF7)
Skrimir vs. Miranda (LoD)
Skrimir vs. Titania (FEs)
Skrimir vs. Red Mage (FF1)
Skrimir vs. Wil (FE7) - Wil sucks
Skrimir vs. Nanami (S2) - not Nanami's fight
Skrimir vs. Tim (WA2) - can't stall
Skrimir vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4) - can actually stall


15 gauge, Olivi Grass, pre-transformed:

Lyre vs. Meliadoul (FFT)
Lyre vs. Jude (WA4)
Lyre vs. Lyon (FE8)
Lyre vs. Frog (CT)
Lyre vs. Tia (Lufia2) - Go first, apply fire magic.  Lyre doesn't double Tia and has little ability to actually enforce a heal lock here due to cat gauge even with a Satori Sign allowed, and letting Tia get Aqua Attack off here equals death considering the first salvo.  Evasion is something of an issue but when in doubt I will gut against cat guage.  also wait, crit hype?  in FE10 the game of absurdly high enemy luck by the standards of the series?  You don't see normal crits ever unless you get a Crit+ skill, generally speaking. edit: wait, overrated full transformed average, so Lyre may actually have a shot at doubling, on the other hand, she would also need to maintain a 2HKO to a higher damage average, not quite sure how well I respect all fullshifted all the time for damage.  Hm, maintaining vote but it's closer than I initially believed. 

Ulki vs. Meliadoul (FFT) - uh yeah Vigilance puts Ulki second-best in the cast for evasion while transformed, flat-out best if you don't consider Authority for people, gooooood luck with that.
Ulki vs. Jude (WA4) - Sure, accuracy and weakness hitting.
Ulki vs. Lyon (FE8) - this is ugly
Ulki vs. Frog (CT)
Ulki vs. Tia (Lufia2) - Ulki's ability to maintain a heallock is much better than Lyre's, meanwhile, and stands a better shot at doubling to boot.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 10:30:40 AM by Random Consonant »

Cmdr_King

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Re: Failing Grounds: Radiant Dawn Laguz
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2013, 08:09:42 PM »
Ones I don't need maths for now, maybe more later depending.

0 gauge, no items:

Lethe (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Zahaak (S5)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4)- Enil is basically a free win (unless you're Jogurt or Ditto).  I'd hold any clones she makes to the traits of the original, in this case meaning phantom Lethe can't attack until after Lethe herself transforms.

Ena (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD)
Ena (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Ena (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3)
Ena (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Zahaak (S5)
Ena (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4)


0 gauge, Olivi Grass:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Quistis (FF8)- Ranulf can't one-round her, that's basically game.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Cyan (FF6)- He basically gets a free full charge.  Ranulf might pull it out after but I really doubt it.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Emma (WAACF)- Pick a status.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Regigigas (PKMN)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Chidori (P3)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Evil Gaia (G1)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Igglanova (PS4)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Alenia (S5)

Janaff vs. Quistis (FF8)
Janaff vs. Cyan (FF6)
Janaff vs. Emma (WAACF)
Janaff vs. Regigigas (PKMN)
Janaff vs. Chidori (P3)
Janaff vs. Evil Gaia (G1)
Janaff vs. Igglanova (PS4)
Janaff vs. Alenia (S5)


0 gauge, Laguz Stones:

Nealuchi vs. Rikku (FFX)
Nealuchi vs. Miranda (G3)
Nealuchi vs. Cervantes (FEA)
Nealuchi vs. Catiua (TOPSP)- No Vote.
Nealuchi vs. Chu-Chu (XG)
Nealuchi vs. Noel (SO2)- Mm.  I should look it up, but I feel like Nealuchi can tie up Noel healing basically forever, and he's not hitting untransformed stats ever.
Nealuchi vs. Labrynthia (WAXF)
Nealuchi vs. Mustadio (FFT)- Cute pick, but nah, not feeling FFT Guns hitting flier weakness.  Mustadio can stall but not long enough to realistically win.

Gareth vs. Rikku (FFX)
Gareth vs. Miranda (G3)- Miranda versus Nealuchi needs some math, notably I'm not sure if she really goes first.  doesn't matter against Gareth, she's still doubling.
Gareth vs. Cervantes (FEA)
Gareth vs. Catiua (TOPSP)- No vote.
Gareth vs. Chu-Chu (XG)
Gareth vs. Noel (SO2)
Gareth vs. Labrynthia (WAXF)
Gareth vs. Mustadio (FFT)- The only one here forced to hit Gareth's godly defense.

Rest needs math, later.

15 gauge, no items, pre-transformed:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tifa (FF7)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Miranda (LoD)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Titania (FEs)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Red Mage (FF1)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Wil (FE7)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nanami (S2)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tim (WA2)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4)

Skrimir vs. Tifa (FF7)
Skrimir vs. Miranda (LoD)
Skrimir vs. Titania (FEs)
Skrimir vs. Red Mage (FF1)
Skrimir vs. Wil (FE7)
Skrimir vs. Nanami (S2)
Skrimir vs. Tim (WA2)
Skrimir vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4)


15 gauge, Olivi Grass, pre-transformed:

Lyre vs. Meliadoul (FFT)
Lyre vs. Jude (WA4)
Lyre vs. Lyon (FE8)
Lyre vs. Kanji (P4)
Lyre vs. Lightning (FF13)
Lyre vs. Frog (CT)
Lyre vs. Sophia (SO3)
Lyre vs. Tia (Lufia2)

Ulki vs. Meliadoul (FFT)
Ulki vs. Jude (WA4)
Ulki vs. Lyon (FE8)
Ulki vs. Kanji (P4)
Ulki vs. Lightning (FF13)
Ulki vs. Frog (CT)
Ulki vs. Sophia (SO3)
Ulki vs. Tia (Lufia2)
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Failing Grounds: Radiant Dawn Laguz
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2013, 05:57:20 PM »
0 gauge, no items:

Lethe (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD): Jagen doesn't double! Still 3HKOs though. Since melee attacks don't increase gauge, this means Lethe never transforms and certainly isn't killing with 2 counters.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1): Fire Lance gives Lethe the ability to attack before being hit more than once. Still, doubled Fire Lance does hurt a lot. Lethe transforms on turn 3 and starts beating the hell out of her... as in probably one-rounds. Even if she doesn't she can take one more weakness-hitting hit, I think, since her mdur is now decent.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7): Rufus doubles twice then Lethe transforms and he dies. Ranged damage actually isn't what you want here.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3): Shady's damage is quite a lot better than Rufus'.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1): Gobi's quite a lot like Jagen. Only 3HKOs, but that's good enough.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1): Booo people with no stat topics, but gutcheck says he's at least as good as Jagen.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Zahaak (S5): Zahhak is an free win pretty much. I think his midgame form is less horrid but too bad, I vote on his last non-crazy one and that is awful.
Lethe (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4): Enil has two clone attacks before Lethe transforms. The problem is those can't double because Lethe kills them on counters, and they aren't 2HKOing much of anything. After that Lethe transforms and Enil becomes Enil, i.e. can't actually deal damage.

Ena (FE10) vs. Jagen (FESD): As above.
Ena (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1): Decent mdur buys her time to transform, and get near magic immunity. Menu Mystic Cross is an okay option but "attack every five turns", really? Ugggh.
Ena (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7): This is really close. Rufus gets three turns of free attacks, after which point she's almost dead, then transforms and starts having things like COUNTERS which 3HKO anyway. So it depends if Rufus can kill her on the fourth turn despite tranform bonuses... oh wait, Ena has RENEWAL and that saves her. Wow.
Ena (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3): Three rounds of Shady attacks beats out Ena regen.
Ena (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1): Back to fighters.
Ena (FE10) vs. Garland (FF1): Yep.
Ena (FE10) vs. Zahaak (S5)
Ena (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4): Regen should buy her the time, I think. Doesn't help that Ena clones would have low damage.


0 gauge, Olivi Grass:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Quistis (FF8): Ranulf only getting 25 gauge from his first turn + Quistis attack means Quistis gets a second turn to finish him. (3HKOs and doubles.)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Cyan (FF6): If Cyan goes for offence, he... can't 2-round, so Ranulf transforms and eats him. (one-rounds) So he has to charge for something, and doubled Quadra Slam (even if allowed) isn't fatal, while Quadra Slice/Cleave take too long to charge for.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Emma (WAACF): Arc-en-ciel + Reset forever.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Regigigas (PKMN): Doubled Giga Impact or something.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Evil Gaia (G1): No respect for Evil Gaia maintaining a perfect sleep lock, which is what he has to do since after the first sleep/poison spam, Ranulf will have a full gauge ready to OHKO with.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Igglanova (PS4): Igglanova is slow to get started. That's bad.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Alenia (S5): 2HKOs Ranulf with MT magic.

Janaff vs. Quistis (FF8): The DL differences between Ranulf and Janaff under this interpreation don't come up here much. Janaff has more (i.e. monstrous) damage, Ranulf has better magic durability. There are a few other small differences but nothing major. As such, same votes everywhere.
Janaff vs. Cyan (FF6)
Janaff vs. Emma (WAACF)
Janaff vs. Regigigas (PKMN): The closest match to flipping, since Janaff is slightly faster and as such aalllllmost isn't doubled to me. But not quite.
Janaff vs. Evil Gaia (G1)
Janaff vs. Igglanova (PS4)
Janaff vs. Alenia (S5)


0 gauge, Laguz Stones:

Nealuchi vs. Rikku (FFX): Tear happens before Rikku gets an overdrive, and it one-rounds her.
Nealuchi vs. Miranda (G3): Low kneejerk respect for Miranda.
Nealuchi vs. Cervantes (FEA): Cervantes 3HKOs, 1-2 range offsets doubles with Cervantes going first. Is he 2-shotted? Your boss durability may vary, but I really doubt it. ... though Nealuchi has lots of evade. Eh, that probably flips my vote
Nealuchi vs. Catiua (TOPSP): Both waste their first turns, but after that the durability difference is too massive.
Nealuchi vs. Chu-Chu (XG): Chu-Chu sucks.
Nealuchi vs. Noel (SO2): Noel sucks.
Nealuchi vs. Labrynthia (WAXF): MDur and evade tilt this Ugly Old Crow's way.
Nealuchi vs. Mustadio (FFT): FFT guns have enough translation issues that I'm willing to spot them respect checks like this. Flying weakness go, Mustadio suddenly 3HKOs going first and Nealuchi is only getting one turn before this happens.

Gareth vs. Rikku (FFX): No doubling along with bad skill means Ire is too far off, so Limit happens first in this case. Poison + Sleep is fatal.
Gareth vs. Miranda (G3): Miranda has her earth magic! Too bad she can't double with it.
Gareth vs. Cervantes (FEA): WHAT IS THIS, CERVANTES DOUBLING?!? Okay. Well, good thing Gareth counters. I would guess Gareth 3HKOs, so call it four turns because he'll miss at some point. This gives Cervantes some seven or so attacks to win with. Is that enough against Gareth pdur? Eh... sure.
Gareth vs. Catiua (TOPSP): OHKOs. This is embarrassing.
Gareth vs. Chu-Chu (XG): I think?
Gareth vs. Noel (SO2): All of Noel's remotely worthwhile damage is MT. Just like in-game, Gareth is very happy this doesn't double him.
Gareth vs. Labrynthia (WAXF): Good -lord-.
Gareth vs. Mustadio (FFT): Mocks puny weak fighters.

Not too shocked that Nealuchi is a better dueller than Gareth. Thank goodness.


15 gauge, no items, pre-transformed:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tifa (FF7): Ranulf is back, new and improved! He's actually pretty close to not doubling Tifa with the higher average, but he manages it. He can't chip at all though, so the question is does he one-shot? Ranulf does 91.8% over a double... not quite enough! Bye.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Miranda (LoD): munch munch munch (one-rounds... barely doubles)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Titania (FEs): Titania barely isn't doubled. She 4HKOs with a Hand Axe with range supremacy, while Ranulf 3HKOs her back. She goes first, and Ranulf only gets two turns, no doubling = this isn't fatal and he detransforms and is slaughtered.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Red Mage (FF1): munch munch munch
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Wil (FE7): Well he doesn't one-round, but he is faster, nobody counters, and Ranulf barely has gauge for a second turn.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nanami (S2): No doubles, but Ranulf does 2HKO. And counters. Yeah.
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tim (WA2): munch munch munch
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4): MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH

Skrimir vs. Tifa (FF7): Does Skrimir survive a L2? Yeah, seems like it. And his damage isn't so impressive as to trigger a L3.
Skrimir vs. Miranda (LoD): OHKOs.
Skrimir vs. Titania (FEs): Isn't doubled (somehow), can't be run out of gauge before turn 2, 2HKOs.
Skrimir vs. Red Mage (FF1): Faster if auto-transformed (laguz threat range plot).
Skrimir vs. Wil (FE7): Wil sucks.
Skrimir vs. Nanami (S2): Fairly confident here.
Skrimir vs. Tim (WA2): First Aid doesn't let Tim take a second hit, and he can't do anything useful besides First Aid with his first turn. If he could, he'd survive until Hi-Combine and win.
Skrimir vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4): Meena's not OHKOed, but I don't think she can do anything useful. edit: besides running his gauge out in three turns

Skrimir's too good under this interp which overrates the lion gauge. (You go into Stone/Gem mode almost immediately after getting him.) Still feels like he got lucky here on quite a few fights, he's very close to losing to Miranda/Tifa/Tim in particular.


Lyre vs. Meliadoul (FFT): This is a horrendous slaughter, Meliadoul against things she can't break is terrible. Kinda durable but Lyre counters.
Lyre vs. Jude (WA4): Jude has range which helps. Checking Assault Buster against Lyre's FE speed makes it useless, so Silver Launcher time? Or huh, maybe Rapid Assault actually... this arguably stops him from being doubled. Damage is awful but still 5HKOs Lyre, he gets two turns to her one and isn't doubled, running down her gauge like mad... also isn't countered. Even with a miss or two he should be okay.
Lyre vs. Lyon (FE8): Enough respect here. Your bosses may vary.
Lyre vs. Lightning (FF13): Fire weakness should raise Lightning's ravager damage to a two-round... though evade drops that back to a three. Lyre, however, can kill in two rounds. Still, if Lightning goes first, she can empty out Lyre's gauge before her second turn, and by starting her second round quickly she can ensure this, forcing Lyre to use Olivi Grass turn one which costs her a slugfest.
Lyre vs. Frog (CT): Lyre is faster and can somewhat heal-lock, although gauge makes that tricky. She attacks, Frog heals. (6 gauge) Olivi Grass, Frog uses Water. (12 gauge) Olivi Grass, Frog uses Water. (18 gauge) She attacks, Frog uses Frog Squash since otherwise she'll get off a third attack and statistically have a shot at Rend. So does Water x2 + Frog Squash kill? One Water will probably miss... so yeah, hell no.
Lyre vs. Sophia (SO3): Sophia's damage is so terrible that even if Blood Scylla is the best possible damage type she's in trouble here. I could be argued I suppose, but I imagine Rend sees play soon enough, see the Frog progression roughly.
Lyre vs. Tia (Lufia2): Tia pdur is sub-60%. One Lyre double and she's done. Tia has one turn to win, and Lyre's res is quite good so she should stave off a Spark OHKO or a turn 1 sleep easily enough.

Ulki vs. Meliadoul (FFT): Okay, broad strokes time. Ulki is much better than Lyre. (SHOCK). Better damage, better defence, better evade, better gauge. So he'll win any fight she does unless someone exploits his weakness, and a few more.
Ulki vs. Jude (WA4): Jude, however, hits that weakness! And is very accurate when he uses that basic physical!
Ulki vs. Lyon (FE8): Does Ulki win in three hits? It's what he has to do, Lyon will hit him twice in three attempts and 2HKOs. 1.28 pdur... yeah I probably don't see Lyon having that. shrug FE boss gutchecks
Ulki vs. Lightning (FF13): So all that stuff about emptying Lyre's gauge doesn't work here. Ulki kills in two turns and that's that. Evade prevents Lightning from having any hope of a successful Wind blitz.
Ulki vs. Frog (CT): Uh yeah.
Ulki vs. Sophia (SO3): Unlike with Lyre I'm completely confident here. Sophia fails forever at putting on pressure and evade means Ulki may not even need Tear. Also he may well one-shot.
Ulki vs. Tia (Lufia2): Ouch.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 07:00:47 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Failing Grounds: Radiant Dawn Laguz
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2013, 08:49:03 AM »
0 gauge, no items:

Lethe (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1)- Would see Fire Lance doubling, and Lethe has a low 2HKO when transformed to me...although Double Fire Lance has a better shot of OTKO than Lethe does of OHKOing to me I believe
Lethe (FE10) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1)
Lethe (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4)

Ena (FE10) vs. Lorenta (VP1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Rufus ShI can'tF7)
Ena (FE10) vs. Shady Thousand (WA3)
Ena (FE10) vs. Gobi (BoF1)
Ena (FE10) vs. Enil (WA4)


0 gauge, Olivi Grass:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Quistis (FF8)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Cyan (FF6)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Emma (WAA- Don't give Emma credit for Reset, but don't want to think of this otherwise
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Chidori (P3)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Evil Gaia (G1)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Igglanov

Janaff vs. Quistis (FF8)
Janaff vs. Cyan (FF6)
Janaff vs. Emma
Janaff vs. Chidori (P3)
Janaff vs. Evil Gaia (G1)
Janaff vs. Igglanov

0 gauge, Laguz Stones:

Nealuchi vs. Rikku (FFX)- Godlike
Nealuchi vs. Miranda (G3)
Nealuchi vs. Catiua (TOPSP)
Nealuchi vs. Chu-Chu (XG)
Nealuchi vs. Noel (SO2)
Nealuchi vs. Labrynthia (WAXF)
Nealuchi vs. Mustadio (FFT)

Gareth vs. Rikku (FFX)
Gareth vs. Miranda (G3)- Gareth is not good
Gareth vs. Catiua (TOPSP)- No
Gareth vs. Chu-Chu (XG)- I...can't. That I would have to think about either of the above two shows what I think of Gareth when the enemy has any magic damage
Gareth vs. Noel (SO2)- So...86% doubled by Noel rate and boosts magic damage and Gareth 3HKOs. But wow, Blood Sucker was worse than I remembered (1500 damage might do it)
Gareth vs. Labrynthia (WAXF)
Gareth vs. Mustadio (FFT)


15 gauge, no items, pre-transformed:

Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tifa (FF7)- Sure
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Miranda (LoD)- Miranda isn't OHKOed, but 3HKOs on damage to me, which I don't think will work well
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Titania (FEs)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Red Mage (FF1)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Wil (FE7)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nanami (S2)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Tim (WA2)
Ranulf (FE10) vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4)- Well, if she could OHKO.

Skrimir vs. Tifa (FF7)
Skrimir vs. Miranda (LoD)
Skrimir vs. Titania (FEs)
Skrimir vs. Red Mage (FF1)
Skrimir vs. Wil (FE7)
Skrimir vs. Nanami (S2)
Skrimir vs. Tim (WA2)
Skrimir vs. Nara/Meena (DQ4)


15 gauge, Olivi Grass, pre-transformed:

Lyre vs. Meliadoul (FFT)- I saw Lyre as a Light/Middle under this view (which is the one I ascribe to) so I definitely would not say that she translates overly well or anything (Worst cat/tiger/wolf). Let's see how that holds up. Oh yeah, versus Meliadoul, she wins, because basically all Laguz in this position probably do.
Lyre vs. Jude (WA4)
Lyre vs. Lyon (FE8)
Lyre vs. Kanji (P4)- Lyre v durability with some magic thrown in
Lyre vs. Lightning (FF13)
Lyre vs. Frog (CT)
Lyre vs. Sophia (SO3)- Sophia is just spamming Ice Needles chains, Lyre is frozen
Lyre vs. Tia (Lufand Lyre may need to be using Olivi Grass)

Ulki vs. Meliadoul (FFT)- Ulki in this manner is heavy. 60% evade and 2HKOing
Ulki vs. Jude (WA4)
Ulki vs. Lyon (FE8)
Ulki vs. Kanji (P4)
Ulki vs. Lightning (FF13)
Ulki vs. Frog (CT)
Ulki vs. Sophia (SO3)
Ulki vs. Tia (Lufia2)

So, there is not a comparison here.
...into the nightfall.