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Author Topic: Changing views  (Read 3924 times)

superaielman

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Changing views
« on: March 24, 2013, 09:39:27 PM »
This is a pretty straightforward topic. What is an issue you have moved to the left on over the years? (Economically or socially, it doesn't matter) What is an issue you have moved to the right on?


Left:  Death Penalty. I still support it and have absolutely no problem with using it on people for certain crimes (Treason, murder). That said, there are enough issues with the justice system that I definitely can see why people oppose it.  This took some time to think up. A lot of the issues I have changed on is moving more towards a libertarian direction, like the war on drugs or things like the use of our drone program.

Right:  Environmental issues.  Specifically nuclear power and energy in general. Oil and gas generate a lot of jobs, and I don't think the environmental movement has done a very good job in addressing the concerns there. Green energy is nice, but it is not going to replace fossil fuels. That is more a partial thing though, as I'm way to the left on the republican party on the issue. Mmm. Uh. Mmm. Probably gun control  then. Of course, as with the environment, moving to the right still puts me to the left of the NRA and groups like that.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 09:42:55 PM by superaielman »
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Re: Changing views
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2013, 09:52:58 PM »
There is an awful lot of Green/Left proponents of Nuclear energy.  You just have to find them in more Scientific communities rather than your vocal Human Rights or Green Peace types.  Definitely agree in that it is an area I have budged on a lot after a little bit of study.  I disagree that Green movement hasn't done enough about it, they have been pushing for better energy for years, it is just too little too late that they are getting funding for it.  Definitely think there is place for Nuclear in the future though to replace a portion of Fossil.

That said.

Right: Death Penalty.  I was vehemently opposed to it in my youth.  Having grown up and seen the monetary cost in not applying it and with such over application of the Prison system I can see why there is people and areas in the US in favour of it.  Especially with a very social Darwinist society that it can be at times (especially with those in favor of the death penalty).  With all the problems with the Judicial system (all the world over) I wouldn't really apply it ever, but I can see where people are coming from.

Left:  Drugs and drug use.  This is a long time ago this shift happened but uh there isn't much room here.  When I was way younger I didn't get why you would do these things to yourself.  Now I still don't really understand but see it as a personal choice and idgaf, the social cost on everything around prevention of access is way way disproportionate to the outcome.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2013, 11:58:07 PM »
Left: Green stuff. Pretty much everything Super said reversed.

Green + nuclear + development of both is the way, fossil fuels need to be taken out of the picture. Nuclear is currently unfeasible in the long term (not enough supply of uranium, which is what we currently make our nuclear power from) and green energy is only feasible in certain places (believe British Columbia's electric is pretty damn green, but it has a way to get it). A combination of new technology which has been neglected due to hard right ninnies/oil buddies and smart usage of current technology needs to be utilized in full force. Make cars have higher MPG and tax cars that aren't, carbon tax(B.C. has this already!), find more viable green cars(as is, most of the green car technology has been stalled by catalyst availability problems), turn the conversation toward trying to halt and mitigate climate change rather than people who seem to fail to give a shit/disbelieve that we have a problem and holding oil companies accountable for the environmental impact. We can't just scrub it down until it gets better. That's not how it works.

Right: Reading teacher's unions newspapers has made me realize that some people are just wacked out of their mind in terms of what is fair. It's not fair to hire employees based on how good they are at their job! Wah. Just unbelievable. Gun control is something I fluctuate about as well.
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Re: Changing views
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 02:22:26 AM »
Left: I've moved pretty hard to the left since the days of yore when I started talking with you assholes.  I was pretty leftist to begin with, though, so it's pretty hard to pick out exactly what I've shifted on, and a lot of things I've become more positive toward don't really fit the left-right spectrum.  Anyway.  One thing I've shifted a LOT on is my views on depression as a mental illness.  I used to think that all people with depression or suicidal tendencies were, in a word, pussies.  My attitude as a kid was, You live in the first world, you have no right to want to kill yourself or feel depressed.  This was probably a lot of bravado to cover up my own dealings in this arena, but in any case, since then I've come to realize that things like this are in fact illnesses, and not something you can just think away (at least not easily).  Not exactly a left-right deal, but definitely something I've shifted the most on, and it's hard to say that this shift is all a conservative one.

To the right... mmm. I want to say energy, but that's not exactly right since I'm opposed to further use of fossil fuels.  However, the anti-nuclear energy sentiment shared by the non-scientific types on the left is absolutely asinine, and it's an especially strong viewpoint among the Japanese people I know, given what happened back in 2011.  However, basing your views on nuclear energy on what happened in Fukushima, a power plant that, IIRC, was due to close in 2012 and was severely outdated in its facilities is fucking asinine.  I'm all for alternative energy, but looking at the situation pragmatically, all the other options we have currently are pipe dreams and nuclear seems to me to be the most realistic option right now. 

Let's go with that.

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2013, 02:35:42 AM »
Left: Drugs. The more I learned about the social cost of prohibition and the Drug War the less I liked it. I don't approve of people using these things but it should be treated as a public health issue rather than a criminal one. Also moved to the left on Unions. I never really felt comfortable with them as a worker because I felt it was the job of the worker to obey employers without too much flack. But as I got older I realized that workers actually have to live and take care of families and without such organizations a lot of workers would be worse off... even those who are not in the union. I didn't understand the power a lack of collective bargaining gives employers to abuse workers if they so chose, and having never been abused myself I didn't understand how critical it was to avoid that.

Right: I'm pretty freaking leftist, and I started out right-wing as a stupid kid, so I can't say I have moved a great deal rightward at any point! I guess affirmative action has always kind of bothered me, and that hasn't gone away no matter how many years pass, so I have moved right on that issue relative to all other issues!

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 05:56:19 AM »
Left: I've generally moved most left in my general economic views. When I was younger I was a pretty firm belief in lower taxes = more jobs, because well obviously that would be the case, right? As I got older I realised that uh historically this happens basically never. Bush was making a mess of everything on foreign policy but at least his taxes would help the American economy and job market... haha, yeah, good one I know.

Also, though this isn't really an ideological thing, but I've also lost some faith in right-wing parties to balance budgets. In general one thing I remain pretty conservative on is the belief that too much debt is bad and we both as people and governments should make more effort to live within our means. The Canadian and American right do a fair bit of talk on this issue, but their actual track record on it is pretty wretched. (It's not that left-wing parties are way better on this front, but at least their spending goes to far better things.)


Right: I've lost a fair bit of respect for unions over the past few years. Don't really want to get into specifics in anywhere remotely public. I'm not militantly against them because everything Pyro says on the subject is technically right, but they can also enable some very bad things and I've seen it first hand.

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2013, 10:48:46 PM »
I'm a member of a union myself (electrician's union), and basically there are good and bad ones.  Teacher's unions are pretty terrible in general, and responsible for most of the bad press that unions get.  See also Waiting on Superman movie.  But yeah unions are responsible for a lot of things that all workers benefit from; working conditions used to be considerably worse in the not-so-distant past.  So they have filled a need.

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 01:39:56 AM »
LEFT: Mostly a lot of economic issues. Privatization, particularly of things like health care. And basically how it's a terrible idea that kills people. Private industry in general I'm increasingly uncomfortable with. At least, when it's an absolute necessity like the aforementioned health care, drugs, power, hell, even things like phones and the Internet.... travel, all sorts of things I think would be better off, and ultimately cheaper, if the government would do it.

RIGHT: It's very hard for me to say I've moved to the right on anything. I think of the US-resident DLers, I started off as one of the most conservative and now would wager I'm more left-leaning than most, so that's a pretty significant shift.  I think, being involved with more left leaning communities (various schools, personal friends I've made, Something Awful, certainly) along with more access to information, becoming a bit more outgoing, personally, the American Right going completely off the deep end over the last several years, and finally a deep-seeded hatred of Republicans for shitting on my hopes and dreams (really, this was the catalyst for me paying more attention and realizing, hey, they're being dicks to everyone else, too) has really put a damper on me having any growing respect for their line of thought.

I really can't think of one.

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 02:05:24 AM »
Mostly the same as everyone else.  I've gone from a paternalistic old left to a more left-libertarian type.

Left: Drugs.  The enforcement of "morality" by the government, loosely.  The criminal justice system.
Don't get me wrong, I understood that Prohibition was a failure when I grew up.  The problem was they did it wrong.  People were already "hooked" on alcohol and so they turned to crime to feed their addiction.  Instead, we should simply declare a cutoff date, and if you were born after that date alcohol / cigarettes / all of the other bad things we were told about in school would never be legal for you - thus cutting off smoking & drinking's supply of new users.  The current users will slowly die off, and future generations will grow up with proper clean living, since it was never legal for them to even try alcohol and get "hooked" or whatever.  (Implicit assumption: All other people are like me, and would never break the law unless already crazed addicts or the like.)

I wasn't some raging bigot growing up, but I'd have had no particular problem with blatant government favoritism in favor of, say, marriage and against unmarried couples "living in sin."

According to TV, the cops & the DAs are the good guys.  Sure those weird cases where cops lie exist, but they probably involve dramatic bizarre Agatha Christie revenge twists, or broken love triangles, or the like.  Certainly not just banal "I don't care, I know you're guilty, let's just plant some drugs on you and it's my word against yours" stuff.


Right: Capitalism, unions.

I took some econ courses in college, and lo, the socialists were right, it was an indoctrination center where (very leftist academic types) pretended their reactionary anti-working class rhetoric was math.  And it worked.  Didn't help that many of the most active socialists on our campus were really annoying hypocrites.  Then I sold out and worked for The Man in the bowels of finance (amonst a bunch of other liberal Democrats, psst don't tell anyone.)  Plenty of inter-economist disputes I'm largely on the left side of (think Paul Krugman) but I accept the validity of a whole bunch of basic econ, which some of the old left (including younger me) don't really.

Unions: Not in fact a happy collection of cooperating workers standing up to the Man, it turns out.

superaielman

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2013, 02:28:57 AM »
Things like the criminal justice system isn't a straight left/right shift. One of the first arguments I read against the drug war came from Bill Buckley of all people. It's one of those issues where the left and libertarian right are in agreement, which makes it difficult to peg. The right did start the drug war and tough on crime stuff, but it was co oped by the democrats pretty quickly.
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Veryslightlymad

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2013, 02:55:12 AM »
Well, the united states doesn't really have a Libertarian party or a Socialist party (It has both, they're just too small to matter on national elections). In the past, our parties were pretty loosely defined, and you'd find people with just about any opinion on either side with a D or an R next to their name, with most of what set them apart being regional stuff.

Nowadays, as near as I can tell, we have a corporate Democratic party and a reactionary Republican party (which is ALSO corporate, mind). There are some socialists that run as D and some Libertarian types that run as R, but they're exceptions, and even they have to pander to their bases. Things like the criminal justice system are the sort of things that it's not really even on the radar for either party to begin with.

Incidentally, it's the sort of thing that a (true) Libertarian and a Socialist would agree on, too, despite not seeing eye to eye on many other issues, and economically being diametrically opposed. It's part of why I dislike the two party system. If we had four, we could see unlikely coalitions on challenging issues, such as this one, and possibly even a shift toward a more positive future.

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 02:28:38 AM »
Quote
Mostly the same as everyone else.  I've gone from a paternalistic old left to a more left-libertarian type.

Except that I haven't soured on unions.  Unions make the most sense in the private sector, and private sector unions do a lot of good.  Public sector unions it varies tremendously by state.  Here in NY the law is too generous to public sector unions.  In other states like Wisconsin that is not at all the case.  Hard to generalize my position, but I'm definitely against the right's pogrom on unions, so left, I suppose.

I've gone liberal-left on the environment.  Super, I couldn't help but notice that your statement on the environment was missing two words: global warming.  Those two words, and my enhanced appreciation of how bad things are and how culpable certain parties are, push me to the left on those issues.

I'm not sure that I've gone right on really anything.  Gun control, I guess.  But yeah, libertarianism.

For the most part I feel like my progression has been kneejerk => more informed.  but I don't feel like that has changed my political leanings much. so maybe the idea I'm more informed is something of an illusion - just better-sounding ill-informed pablum. who knows? not me, that's for sure.

p.s. fuck conservatives.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 02:41:02 AM by NotMiki »
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Re: Changing views
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 11:41:19 PM »
Mostly what NotMiki and VSM have said.  Nowadays I'm very solidly left on most issues, though with a side dose of some libertarian leanings. 

It's hard to say I've "gone" right on anything, because my starting position around my high school days was so far right-wing to begin with.  I remain "conservative" on gun control, which is to say, I support the rights of people to buy, sell, own and operate firearms, even Ahnold-grade assault weapons.  Much as I support the rights of people to buy, sell, own and operate marijuana, gay porn, Kickstarter board games about tentacle rape jokes, and comic books depicting the American flag being burned.

Yeah, that board game... hm.  I guess you could say I've shifted somewhat back away from the "certain issues are never okay to write or joke about in certain tones" branch of social justice leftism, and squarely back to a blanket position of anti-any-form-of-censorship.  I'm not sure whether that would be classified as left or right - the label seems to depend on what's being subject to censoring.

Dunefar

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2013, 12:44:36 AM »
I haven't changed much. I started on the right and I've drifted a little more rightward on a few issues.

Death Penalty: Still support it, but I'm more lukewarm nowadays. I'm not against it, but I don't see it as an issue worth supporting strongly either.
Gun Control: Started apathetic and vaguely against and have since progressed to being strongly against it. Guns get used as a boogeyman instead of addressing the underlying issues and people behind misusing them.
State's Rights: I've gone from token support to strong support. So many wedge issues should be solved on a state level (gun control, abortion, healthcare) rather than becoming a national problem. The greatest strength of the United States is that each state can shape much of its policy in a way that suits its residents.
Drugs: I started off hardcore anti-drug/pro-drug war. I've actually gotten even moreso on this issue. Unfortunately the issue's going towards the left in general, so it's not a particularly rewarding position to be in right now.

Dunno why I never caught the lefty bug that's infected so much of the DL. Maybe I'm overly stubborn? Maybe seeing the farther left has galvanized my own views? Like VSM I read something awful too, but unlike him it's done nothing but show me how horribly wrong I feel lefties are. Eh, probably some of both. More stubbornness than anything else.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 12:50:06 AM by Dunefar »
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Re: Changing views
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2013, 03:03:20 PM »
I haven't changed my position on gay marriage, abortion, gender, environment, women's, minority & immigrant rights since I was 16. And I never will. You could say that I hold the leftist position if you want.

Gun rights, I am "????" because I am still very uninformed and unwilling to share my opinion much anymore.
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Way in which I've changed: I've recently become more reclusive. I absolutely -hate- online protests, but it could due, in part, that I haven't come to terms with the virtual world and lazy talk-no-"action" leftists (like me!). I should really get over it as I have no way of articulating tangible results, but I do know that they work "effectively" with national news as opposed to local. Reps apparently say calls/letters are still the working mode. Whatever, end rant.

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2013, 07:08:35 PM »
Right: Death Penalty.  I was vehemently opposed to it in my youth.  Having grown up and seen the monetary cost in not applying it and with such over application of the Prison system I can see why there is people and areas in the US in favour of it.

Funny story: back when Canada was debating abolishing the death penalty, someone in the senate ran some exhaustive calculations and realized that it was actually cheaper to NOT have the death penalty.

Here's the thing: judicial costs are expensive.  Death penalty means extra judicial costs.  A couple of years ago there was this woman from Florida who had killed her own daughter, and the prosecutors decided to go for the death penalty.  Because they went for the death penalty, she got extra lawyers assigned to her from the state.  Like...I think her lawyer fees over the fairly lengthy trial ended up costing something crazy like $1 mil - $2 mil (paid for by the state).  And that doesn't count extra prosecutor costs, extra judge costs, extra executioner costs that come with a death penalty trial.

By comparison, how much does it cost to keep a prisoner?  $20 a day or something?  So...life in prison costs about $200,000?  Oh, and you don't have to pay that cost upfront (and if Starcraft has taught me anything, it's that you can take big economic advantage of delayed purchases).


-------------------


Aaanyway...some of these shifts date back to like...high school, but...

Left: Death Penalty.  See above

Left: Drugs/prostitution.  Turns out prohibition isn't so effective.

Right: Videogame carding.  At first I was like "gosh, carding people for M-rated games sounds fine."  Then I realized that there's no laws about carding for R-rated movies, videogames actually have a better rate of carding than movies, and what the US government actually wanted to do was to ursurp the ESRB, because they thought the hot coffee scandal meant that they would be able to do a better job than the ESRB, because how could the ESRB miss something that you required a gameshark to unlock????

Direction: I now want patents to go away and die.  Or at least software patents.  And I want public domain to actually be relevant again.  I don't know if this is left or right, but it's certainly a change of position for me.

Right: freedom of speech in videogames.  So like...last I checked videogames are classified as a toy, which means unlike Saturday Night Live, we can't do parodies as free speech.  If someone puts an imitation star wars kid in their game, star wars kid can sue (this happened).  Sex and nudity pretty much gets shut off as potential topics because the US government doesn't like them, and pressures them into being AO rated (which means most stores will not cary the game).

Right: City Garbage workers are better when they're not unionized.

Hard to classify: Environment.  Which is to say, I lean left on environmental issues, but for quite a while they dropped fairly low on my priority list.  Not that my position had necessarily changed, but I was not a fan of parties and politicians that listed the environment as the #1 single most important issue (since it was maybe #5 for me).  I'm looking at you, green party...Al Gore...Stéphane Dion.  Republicans taking the line of "Global Warming is not real", though, kind-of shifts where the right-left line is.  Yes, global warming is real you idiots.  You could pull the skepical face 10 years ago--I know I looked at the data 10 years ago and felt a lack of rigor and precision, but climate scientists have a lot more damning evidence these days.  The real question is whether we should be spending money and resources on fixing global warming, or spending money and resources on fixing this recession.  I vote recession as the higher priority, which isn't to say environment won't get any funding, but I don't think it's the highest priority right now.

Left: LGBT issues.  So like...fun fact, I used to be mildly homophobic >_>.  Not to the point of wanting to deny people rights or anything, but if someone told me they were gay, I would be mildly uncomfortable, and put a little more space between me and them.  And there were some rights I maybe wouldn't defend because they seemed a bit of a stretch from my world view at the time (like protecting gender expression in the workplace for everyone, not just people with a very specific note from a doctor/psychologist).  I'm basically across the board left now, in terms of what should be protected by discrimination laws, etc.

Oscillating: polygamy.  At first I was like "doesn't sound so bad as long as everyone consents."  Then I had a conversation that went "well, the reason we outlaw it is that it tends to come with a lot of other human rights violations.  Like isolated compounds where they kick out the boys, and make the girls mary their fathers."  And that sounded pretty bad, so I was against it.  It didn't help that all the examples I'd heard of were very gender imbalanced.  And then I had a polyandrous coworker, and she (and her husbands) seemed to be perfectly well-adjusted.  So now I'm more for some kind of recognition of it.  If her second husband gets sick, she should be able to visit him in the hospital, for instance.

Extremely complex: Feminism.  Where to even begin with this one?  Even in the time that the DL has known me I went from pretty resolutely second-wave feminism, to pretty solidly third-wave feminism.  Is that a...move to the left?  Move to the right?  Hmm...if anything third wave is almost across the board more libertarian than second wave.  But regardless, the subject has felt increasingly complex (and it seems just recently: increasingly heated).  Something that bothers me might not bother the woman sitting next to me, and something that bothers her might not bother me.  What is worth fighting for, and when does that cross the line into censorship?  And how do we deal with modern issues facing women, which are mostly cultural rather than legal--changing laws is easy (and somehow doesn't prevent an overall 30% wage gap).  Changing culture requires getting people on your side, and getting people on your side also often means not being too heavy-handed.
And I think there's still a lot to understand.  Like...you know the old comic debate, "female superheroes are drawn so unrealistically."  "Male heroes are drawn unrealistically too!"  "That's different, that's a male power fantasy."  All fairly straightforward and well-understood.  What about the other way around?  Depicting a male to have sex appeal to women is a fairly well-known quantity (and tends to be similarly unappealing to most males; see: Legolas, Robert Pattison...).  But I don't feel there is a particularly well-defined female power fantasy.  Here's an interesting thing: I and a lot of women I know, enjoyed Bayonetta.  And I realize there isn't consensus here; I know there's a small minority of people who take offense to Bayonetta (although not any women I've personally talked to so far, now that I think about it...).

right: unmanned military drones.  Don't misinterpret this, I'm still very far left on military in general, and am still in favour of a 98% defence spending cut for the US.  But I find myself defending unarmed military drones, which is weird because they seem like a highly unpopular program.  From what I can tell, though, they actually put a lot of pressure on Al Quaeda.  No, they barely ever killed anyone remotely important, but they provoked a reaction where, for instance, Osama Bin Laden sealed himself in an underground compound with no communication to the outside world.  To use a starcraft example, it's like Zerg using mutalisks to keep opponents pinned in their base unable to attack.  It doesn't have to deal actual damage to be effective. I'm often critical of US military operations partially because of the low return on investment (was Iraq really worth $700 billion and 1 million lives?)  But from what I can tell drones actually have a decent return on investment.

Left: genetically modified food.  So...I used to be generally entirely in favour of the technology.  I looked at the science, it all seemed pretty reasonable.  Now, recently I've been eating gluten free (because my sister went gluten free and reported significant improvements, so I tried going off it as well, and felt much better).  Widespread wheat allergies seem to be a relatively new thing--and one theory is that genetically modified wheat is largely to blame.  Well that's cool, maybe I'll just get myself some non genetically modified wheat.  Anyone know where I can get myself some of that?  Oh, all the seeds have been intermating, and now legitimate 1990-grade wheat is actually pretty hard to get, you say?  Well bummer.  I'm also starting to come around to the opinion that it's silly the US doesn't have GMO stickers like the EU does.

superaielman

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2013, 07:22:00 PM »
Average cost per year for a person in jail/prison in the US is around 40k USD. In the UK it's 44k pounds (ow). The death penalty is more expensive on paper, but some of that is due to the extreme amount of time it takes to go through appeals for the death penalty. I'd bet it's cheaper if we look at someone who spends say 50 years in prison, especially when factoring in the rising cost of health care in jails.

Quote
Oscillating: polygamy.  At first I was like "doesn't sound so bad as long as everyone consents."  Then I had a conversation that went "well, the reason we outlaw it is that it tends to come with a lot of other human rights violations.  Like isolated compounds where they kick out the boys, and make the girls mary their fathers."  And that sounded pretty bad, so I was against it.  It didn't help that all the examples I'd heard of were very gender imbalanced.  And then I had a polyandrous coworker, and she (and her husbands) seemed to be perfectly well-adjusted.  So now I'm more for some kind of recognition of it.  If her second husband gets sick, she should be able to visit him in the hospital, for instance

Marriage is for the expression of romantic love and the raising of families. Polygamy doesn't really work within that framework. How do you do things like taxes and divorce with any sort of equality in this context?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 07:27:52 PM by superaielman »
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metroid composite

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2013, 07:29:20 PM »
Average cost per year for a person in jail/prison in the US is around 40k USD. In the UK it's 44k pounds (ow). The death penalty is more expensive on paper, but some of that is due to the extreme amount of time it takes to go through appeals for the death penalty. I'd bet it's cheaper if we look at someone who spends say 50 years in prison, especially when factoring in the rising cost of health care in jails.

Mmm, yeah, some variables are definitely different from 1930s Canada.  For one thing, life in prison--the maximum sentence, is 25 years.  (Because it turns out people who are violent when they're 20 are a little bit geriatric and very much not the same person when they're 50).  For another thing, back when the Canadian senate did that study, particularly heinous criminals didn't have a long life expectancy.  If you were a heinous child murderer or something, your life expectancy in prison was like...two years, because your fellow inmates would take justice into their own hands.

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2013, 07:40:02 PM »
This is fresh on my mind from class, but the average cost to execute someone is somewhere in the neighborhood of three million dollars. Let's assume that:

The person is arrested at the age of 23, convicted at the age of 25, and executed at the age of 40. (This is a little on the high side, but some states the DP wait is over two decades).

Let's also assume that the prison lives another 35 years in prison.  As they are a violent killer, they'll get put in maximum.  Let's assume 50k a year for costs. That puts it around 1.8 million vs 3 million for executing someone.  Executing someone's more expensive, but economically it might come out ahead depending on what kind of long term care the prisoner needs in old age.

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2013, 10:44:32 PM »
Death penalty is one of those issues I don't really get the large amount of passion about. I'm against it because there are some arguments against it (evidence which exonerates an already-executed criminal, cost concerns) and basically none for it (evidence suggests it does not serve as a deterrant, and... is there even another argument?) but neither of those makes for a crucial issue to me. The fact that the death penalty is applied grossly disproportionately against certain races is obviously awful but is just part of a larger problem with the justice system which needs to be addressed.

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Marriage is for the expression of romantic love and the raising of families. Polygamy doesn't really work within that framework

Doesn't seem impossible to me that three people could all express romantic love for each other (or raise children for that matter, for all that marriage need not be about raising children... seniors marry all the time). mc pretty much mirrors my thoughts on the issue. though I have an addendum. The gay marriage debate has already taught me that there need to be fewer legal benefits to "marriage" anyway... it's bullshit that individuals can't list chosen others for hospital visitation rights, as an example.


Oh yeah, and in contrast to mc I've gone... right? on most things food-related. When I was young I used to parrot various friends who would say things like "artificial sweeteners are bad"! Turns out there's absolutely zero evidence for this! Anti-science bullshit in general is one of my pet peeves, and food gets a lot of it for some reason (fad diets are pretty awesome at obscuring things which are actually healthy). Oh well, at least it's not as bad for food as it is for vaccinations. At least choosing not to eat various foods won't hurt you too much (I mean, Coke is worse for you than Diet Coke, yes, but anyone who cares hopefully avoids having too much Coke anyway...).

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superaielman

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2013, 11:59:52 PM »
This is one of the few issues where I agree with social conservatives and think the government should be butting in. Marriage has some very obvious benefits for society, and the declining marriage rate (especially among the poor) is catastrophic. Yes, you can love who you want, and should be able to let whoever visit you in the hospital that you want. The government still should be pushing people to pair off and marry; it is the most stable arrangement for raising children.   I don't believe that a group of three or more is ideal for raising a family. How do you handle issues like divorce? Visitiation/paternity rights?

Ignoring that, the actual track record of Polygymy is pretty terrible. Unlike with gay marriage, there are valid reasons to be opposed to the concept.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/dept-min/pub/poly/poly.pdf This paper outlines a lot of it. tl'dr is that it's an economic drain on those in polygamous relationships, and the harm almost exclusively falls on women.  There's also a lot of personal hardship in there. This isn't especially surprising considering that polygamy is tied to religious fundamentalism, but you can't divorce that reality from the concept of polygamous marriages.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 12:04:11 AM by superaielman »
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Re: Changing views
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2013, 01:14:20 AM »
Regarding cost of execution.  I was under the impression much the same as you mc in that it is more expensive than most life sentences.  Statement is all about perception.  Incarceration is always expensive and a massive industry that now has since been privatised somewhat is only going to see prices rise (or conditions fall) as profit margins need to increase.  Look at California and its prison overpopulation, in the news waves after that blew up and people state seeing values on how much it cost to keep people imprisoned.  You know that there is a wave of a people that had e immediate response of "and this is why we need the death penalty" (as opposed to "and this is why we maybe shouldn't lock people up for a long time because they smoke weed").



Abolish marriage as a legal entity and create Family Register then Elf?

My position is well documented at this point of one of frustration in that people want their cake and to eat it too.  Having a legal benefit to marriage (let alone basic privileges of family) tied up to it and then wanting to restrict who can do it because of social constructs of human sexuality is nonsensical.  Your standard nuclear family has consistently shown to be the more stable family model, but there is also a huge sampling bias there.  If you do want to support it though, there is more vectors to support the paired parenting of children than the traditional marriage one (Baby bonuses, register taxes as shared income, etc. apply the family benefits through the same means and just associate them beyond a single increasingly socially messy y/n variable come tax time).
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Re: Changing views
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2013, 02:36:04 AM »
Cutting incarceration rates in places like California is far, far more important than the what we do about the death penalty.


Oh, I have little doubt that most polygamous relationships are terrible. I'm just a little uncomfortable with demonising the relation type itself rather than the terribleness it often (though not always) comes with. If three people were in a functional relationship and were happy I would wish them all the best. I don't actually know anyone like that (though mc does?) but that may be in part because the social stigma around it is so strong.

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Marriage has some very obvious benefits for society, and the declining marriage rate (especially among the poor) is catastrophic.

Source?

I've often seen this argument before (uncited) applied to divorce, and I have very little doubt that overall our higher divorce rate is a good thing. We know that domestic violence/abuse is way, way lower than it was a generation ago, and social acceptance of divorce is, I would strongly suspect, a significant factor in that (though not the only one). I'm less sure about the lower marriage rate in general (or higher rate of having children out of marriage, which I imagine is what you're actually getting at, since obviously people get married less now in part because we have less kids, as our 7B world damn well should), and I would not be surprised if it were a bad thing overall, though the benefit of people not getting trapped in shitty relationships via shotgun weddings would need to be weighed against that (children of single parents do worse than those of married parents, but children of dysfunctional married parents do worse than either).

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2013, 06:53:20 AM »
more right than before:  Welfare.  I've just seen too many abuses of it.  People that make more money than I do that get food stamps and the like.  Whole system needs to be demolished, but no idea what to replace it with.

more left than before:  Gun control.  Just increasingly see little benefit to average citizens having guns.  Causes more problems than it solves.

Haven't really changed my views on anything else.  Right on some things (death penalty?  kill all criminals as soon as they're convicted and let Cthulu sort em out), left on others (abortion?  hell yes kill them babies).

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Re: Changing views
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2013, 10:21:17 AM »
(evidence suggests it does not serve as a deterrant, and... is there even another argument?)

Well...it's not quite that simple.

Studies done have found a strong statistical correlation between higher punishment and lower crime.  But the punishment has to actually be carried out.  For instance, muslim countries where if you steal, your hand gets cut off, have lower rates of shoplifting.  The reason the death penalty isn't a deterrent in the US is that nowhere near enough people are being executed in order for it to BE a deterrent.  There was a study done that showed your average life expectancy after having been convicted and placed on death row, was higher than your average life expectancy if you were active in a street gang.

But if you made the death penalty the default sentence for oh, say, insider trading?  Almost certainly there would be far fewer cases of insider trading in the US.

(Actually, one thing I really, really dislike about the current implementation of the death penalty in the US is that it gives people 15 minutes of fame.  People who might otherwise never get a mention have news reports and updates about them.  For someone with not a lot to lose, that might almost be a positive incentive).

Oh yeah, and in contrast to mc I've gone... right? on most things food-related. When I was young I used to parrot various friends who would say things like "artificial sweeteners are bad"! Turns out there's absolutely zero evidence for this! Anti-science bullshit in general is one of my pet peeves, and food gets a lot of it for some reason (fad diets are pretty awesome at obscuring things which are actually healthy). Oh well, at least it's not as bad for food as it is for vaccinations. At least choosing not to eat various foods won't hurt you too much (I mean, Coke is worse for you than Diet Coke, yes, but anyone who cares hopefully avoids having too much Coke anyway...).

Depends on the type of food stuff.  Genetic Engineering is one where I've shifted left, because it actually impacts me.  But like...MSG, for instance, I've gone to the right on, as there's really no evidence it's bad for people other than making some people dizzy.

Actually, I'm curious about your thoughts on High Fructose Corn Syrop, because I've heard both arguments with that one.  On the one hand, I've heard "it's just sucrose, it's chemically identical."  On the other hand, I've heard there are problems with it because it allows more sugar than can normally be diluted in a given volume of liquid.

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If three people were in a functional relationship and were happy I would wish them all the best. I don't actually know anyone like that (though mc does?)

People tend to open up to you about stuff like this if you tell them you're gay....

(And often these are heterosexual or bisexual polyamorous people; they just see gay people as someone who is safe to talk to).

Honestly?  I've met a large enough collection of such people through various completely unrelated sources that I get the impression they're not actually that uncommon, and wouldn't be surprised if you did know one or two.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 10:26:47 AM by metroid composite »