Author Topic: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final  (Read 5364 times)

Cmdr_King

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RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« on: April 30, 2013, 06:41:24 AM »
Godlike

Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF)

Heavy

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium)

Middle

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon)

Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Rankings

For each of the following games, please indicate if you would like to Rank it in the DL or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Brigandine (11/21)
Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals  11/15 (Season 2012-3)
Earthbound (12/21)
Legend of Legaia (13/21)
Parasite Eve (11/21)
Phantasy Star II (11/21)
Wild ARMs Alter Code F (11/21)

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have played the game or not.  Further, if you would reject the game on non-playership grounds, please indicate this as part of your vote.

Star Ocean: The Last Hope
Fire Emblem: Awakening
Dragon Quest VI
Blue Dragon
Lost Odyssey
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 06:50:50 AM »
Godlike

Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF): Confident about this. Katrina 3HKOs and is faster so she only has to deal with 2 Lady turns (one of them evil) and the death counter. That's a lot, but still less than 4PCHP, and I see Katrina as around 5, plus some def for the two Crimson Raids in there.

Heavy

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium): Sa-Lews has an argument for physical immunity (which I don't respect much), and an argument to be weak to Siegmund (non-human enemy and all that... although weaker because all the monsters Siegmund hits weakness on in-game are "evil" and Sa-Lews is actually quite notable as a rare PS4 boss who ISN'T evil (or weak to anything)). I kinda feel the correct interp here is to let these two balance out and take Eph at normal damage, which probably results in a pretty good fight. Now, do I see Legeon as evadable? That's pretty much what this comes down to. Eph misses the 2HKO despite doubling, but certainly has a 3HKO of course. He's 2HKOed back, so he does need to dodge once.

Middle

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon): Gardevoir 2HKOs, but... White Rose can use MegaWindblast to deal 40%, then coup de grace with 69% accuracy. Good enough, seeing as she immunes sleep.

Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword): Zegai's speed is so horrible. 3-2'd by average, so dies horribly. Even if you disagree with this, this is a difficult match for him; he's almost certainly doubled, and if you see him taking 14% extra from magic (certainly possible!) then he dies before getting off a Wrath attack anyway! Alternatively Lucius may just survive a hit anyway. No-Untold-Clarity Zegai does 58.95% to average from the notes I have, Lucius is 0.59 pdur. Coinflippy, but all the small crit chances (4 of 'em) Lucius gets before Zegai's first attack should add up to tilt the tiebreak there more than Lucius' low luck does.


Also rankings!

Brigandine (11/21): Abstain. Borderline case.
Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals 11/15 (Season 2012-3): Rank.
Earthbound (12/21): Rank.
Legend of Legaia (13/21): Rank.
Parasite Eve (11/21): Reject. oh boy solo RPGs
Phantasy Star II (11/21): Abstain.
Wild ARMs Alter Code F (11/21): Rank.

In short, Legaia 1 and FE6 have high enough playership for me to not bat an eye (Legaia 1 is that high, seriously?). Earthbound and ACF are small, largely inoffensive ranks not likely to flood. I'm less sure about Brig and PS2, they're borderline and I could be argued. Parasite Eve is the lone game I'll punt as not suited to the DL.

As always, "rank" means "assuming we have players" but this is CKDL so that is assumed.

Star Ocean: The Last Hope: Played, rank.
Fire Emblem: Awakening: Played, rank.
Dragon Quest VI: Haven't played.
Blue Dragon: Played, rank.
Lost Odyssey: Played... eh. Less happy with ranking this one, immortals in the DL are kinda weird + since they affect the average so much, the mortals are kinda weird too. Don't really care about the bosses and they have no stat topic entry anyway. Tentative no for now, could be argued.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 02:52:37 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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superaielman

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2013, 11:48:41 AM »
Godlike

Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF)- Uh.


Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- Kneejerking that Wrath's offense buff is enough.

Rank all the games up there. CKDL runs so infrequently that I don't consider the problems with marginal drawing games to be relevant. There are no writeups to manage, and there's no art to handle.

Haven't played any of the games on the second list.
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SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2013, 03:48:59 PM »
Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF)
Katrina is pretty hellishly tanky (if not quite as tanky to me as Elf's 5 PCHP), but she isn't a blitzer at high health, and Lady is an excellent "chipper" (where chipping means "oops you lost 1 PCHP+").  I'm not even sure I buy a 3HKO from her, and a 4 or 5HKO is even worse.  I guess if you don't let Lady inflict Prone to other bosses she has a vague argument.  But yeah, "chip" with 1-2 double attacks, then D. Combo Katrina out past her danger phase and even have a death counter left for fun.  (also LOST PROGRESS VS A BOSS not that it matters since Katrina wasting a turn for the +50% MDef would be a waste of time anyway)

Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)
Hahaha no to a FE character getting a 3:2 off here, but it seems like Lucius wins anyway.  That said, I'm standing by my kneejerk of "Zegai too good for Light" since Lucius basically perfectly spoils Zegai - Fire Emblem mage who isn't elementally screwed and thus gets to enjoy doubles to exploit Zegai's poor speed - and he still barely gets the job done.  Zegai's got like 1.25+.62 = 1.9 PCHP to chew through just in pure HP, which Lucius does off 2 doubles and against Zegai's suspect MDef.  (Although sure, there's also "Lucius survives a single attack" hype which makes this a messy slaughter.)

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Random Consonant

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2013, 05:36:41 PM »
Heavy

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) - Assuming I don't respect Sa-Lews's argument for physical immunity at any rate (I certainly don't respect the argument for Eph to hit weakness as Sa-Lews is notably not weak to Anti-Dark.)  My scaling is harsher than NEB's so Eph scrapes that 2HKO as I assume he doubles.

Middle

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon) - sure.

Rankings

For each of the following games, please indicate if you would like to Rank it in the DL or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Brigandine (11/21) - Abstain
Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals  11/15 (Season 2012-3) - Rank.
Earthbound (12/21) - Rank, small and inoffensive.
Legend of Legaia (13/21) - Rank I guess.
Parasite Eve (11/21) - Reject
Phantasy Star II (11/21) - Abstain
Wild ARMs Alter Code F (11/21) - Rank, small and inoffensive.

Data Mine

Star Ocean: The Last Hope - Haven't played.
Fire Emblem: Awakening - Played, rank.
Dragon Quest VI - Haven't played.
Blue Dragon - Haven't played.
Lost Odyssey - Haven't played.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 05:45:23 PM by Random Consonant »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 08:26:03 PM »
Godlike

Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World
) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF)- Gutting against high Lady respect and low Katrina respect.

Heavy

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium)- Ephraim does 71% damage to me, so probably isn't even in the 3HKO range here. AS scaling doesn't let him take this

Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- Post Wrath does 61% to me, Lucius falls there. AS averaged in doesn't give Lucius the damage to quite 2HKO.

Rankings

For each of the following games, please indicate if you would like to Rank it in the DL or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Brigandine (11/21)- Do No Rank (Generally not strong enough)
Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals  11/15 (Season 2012-3) - Do Not Rank (Already effectively covered by 3 highly similar games that cause me headaches)
Earthbound (12/21)- Rank
Legend of Legaia (13/21)- Rank
Parasite Eve (11/21)- Do Not Rank
Phantasy Star II (11/21)- Do Not Rank (Middling, null flat out. At least EB and LoL are slightly stronger and have at least 1 dueller bringing something extra)
Wild ARMs Alter Code F (11/21)- Rank


Data Mine

Star Ocean: The Last Hope - Haven't played, Abstain
Fire Emblem: Awakening - Haven't played, Don't Rank
Dragon Quest VI - Haven't played, Abstain
Blue Dragon - Haven't played, (Would rank if the voters were here, is that the next stage?)
Lost Odyssey - Played, Don't Rank. Doesn't really bring anything of interest for a marginal rank.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:37:52 AM by Dhyerwolf »
...into the nightfall.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 11:52:27 PM »
Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF) - I believe I see Katrina as a bit below 4x PC HP. Thus...

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) - Harsher boss HP interps say sure.

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon) - why not

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - gj zegai

Bubble

Brigandine (11/21) - Played, abstain.
Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals  11/15 (Season 2012-3) - Played, rank.
Earthbound (12/21) - Played, whatever.
Legend of Legaia (13/21) - Played, don't care.
Parasite Eve (11/21) - Played, don't rank.
Phantasy Star II (11/21) - Played, don't rank. Seriously, guys, PS games not named 4.
Wild ARMs Alter Code F (11/21) - Played, rank.

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have played the game or not.  Further, if you would reject the game on non-playership grounds, please indicate this as part of your vote.

Star Ocean: The Last Hope - Haven't played, abstain.
Fire Emblem: Awakening - Played, rank.
Dragon Quest VI - Played, don't rank. Dragon Quest 6 is barrel-bottom for interest as a dueling cast.
Blue Dragon - Haven't played, abstain.
Lost Odyssey - Haven't played, abstain.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Talaysen

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 12:28:54 AM »
Godlike

Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF)

Heavy

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium)

Middle

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon)

Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Rankings

Brigandine (11/21) - abstain
Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals  11/15 (Season 2012-3) - abstain
Earthbound (12/21) - abstain
Legend of Legaia (13/21) - rank
Parasite Eve (11/21) - reject
Phantasy Star II (11/21) - abstain
Wild ARMs Alter Code F (11/21) - rank

Data Mine

Star Ocean: The Last Hope - played, do not rank
Fire Emblem: Awakening - partial play, abstain
Dragon Quest VI - not played, abstain
Blue Dragon - not played, abstain
Lost Odyssey - partial play, abstain

Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2013, 12:38:27 AM »
For CK, added in Godlike and bubble votes (since I know sometimes you count early).
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2013, 01:01:29 AM »
Quote
1.25+.62 = 1.9

Wrath heals half of missing HP, so it's never .62 in practice. It helps makes the berserk turn less wasted and that's it.

I'm still firmly of the opinion that Zegai is Light (-1.4 SD is trash and needing 3 turns to kill average is awful with that speed), but if people want to nom him in Middle instead in the future, it's no skin off my nose.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 01:34:58 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Cmdr_King

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2013, 08:04:31 AM »
Godlike

Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF)- God, maybe I should put her on the Bluelike list.  I always forget the summoning thing exists and it's pretty killer with 'Terrifying Heart'.

Heavy

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium)- There's... a PSIV boss who isn't weak to holy, anti-evil, is obviously the spawn of satan both in story and mechanics?  Fuckin' weird.  Anyway, Eph needs that extra oomph to get that 2HKO he needs.

Middle

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon)

Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Rankings

For each of the following games, please indicate if you would like to Rank it in the DL or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Brigandine (11/21)- Reject.  My reaction is increasingly "oh just go the hell away" whenever I tweak the data and oh, the new person I stuffed in happens to have played brig.  So yeah, go away.
Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals  11/15 (Season 2012-3)- Rank.
Earthbound (12/21)- Rank.
Legend of Legaia (13/21)- Um.  Even allowing that many of the Legaia players are people who don't really vote, 13/21 is better or equal to like 20% of the listings, so I don't really feel justified turning it down.  On the other hand I dunno that people care either.  Will decide later.
Parasite Eve (11/21)- Reject.  I like PE but not enough to make a better stat topic or fight for it or y'know, effort.
Phantasy Star II (11/21)- Reject.  Nothing inherently bad with the game honestly, just seems there's mass apathy from the players for it, just the sort of game I don't want around.
Wild ARMs Alter Code F (11/21)- Rank.  ACF is one of the games that genuinely surprised me when it was lost, always wanted to have it back.

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have played the game or not.  Further, if you would reject the game on non-playership grounds, please indicate this as part of your vote.

Star Ocean: The Last Hope- Not played.
Fire Emblem: Awakening- Played.
Dragon Quest VI- Not played.
Blue Dragon- Technically started.
Lost Odyssey- Not finished.
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Magic Fanatic

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2013, 10:05:48 AM »
Middle

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon) - WR vs. a less threatening Eiko, take 2.



Rankings

Brigandine (11/21)  - Not Played, abstain
Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals  11/15 (Season 2012-3)   - Not Played, abstain
Earthbound (12/21) - Rank
Legend of Legaia (13/21)  - Rank
Parasite Eve (11/21)   - Not Played, abstain
Phantasy Star II (11/21)   - Not Played, abstain
Wild ARMs Alter Code F (11/21)  - Rank

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have played the game or not.  Further, if you would reject the game on non-playership grounds, please indicate this as part of your vote.

Star Ocean: The Last Hope - Not Played
Fire Emblem: Awakening - Not Played
Dragon Quest VI - Not Played
Blue Dragon - Not Played
Lost Odyssey - Not Played

Nephrite

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 03:21:04 PM »
Heavy

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium)

Middle

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon)

Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Rankings

Keep everything.

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have played the game or not.  Further, if you would reject the game on non-playership grounds, please indicate this as part of your vote.

Star Ocean: The Last Hope - Not played (but want to!)
Fire Emblem: Awakening - Not played
Dragon Quest VI - Played
Blue Dragon - Played
Lost Odyssey - Not Played

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 05:30:50 PM »
Godlike

Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF)- I don't think Katrina's Bluelike on paper? She does get a massive amount of respect and her downsides haven't really come up in the few tourneys she's been in.

Heavy

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium)

Middle

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon)

Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - I feel like Zegai easily gets the OHKO and I'm not a fan of the crit hype.

Rankings

For each of the following games, please indicate if you would like to Rank it in the DL or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Brigandine (11/21)  - Played Rank - I really like Brig.
Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals  11/15 (Season 2012-3) - Played, abstain. I like a small number of the duelers, but there are so many forgettable ones that having the whole cast in seems like a bad idea.
Earthbound (12/21) - Played Rank - Love Earthbound, it can get in every once in a while
Legend of Legaia (13/21) - Played, Rank More Backflips and Charm hype~
Parasite Eve (11/21) - Played, abstain. I wouldn't mind Aya in, but if I'm the only one who cares, I guess I'll give up.
Phantasy Star II (11/21) - Played, abstain. Another case where I like a few of the cast, but not enough to fight for it.
Wild ARMs Alter Code F (11/21) - Played Rank! - Best one on here! I actually remember half of these bosses!

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have played the game or not.  Further, if you would reject the game on non-playership grounds, please indicate this as part of your vote.

Star Ocean: The Last Hope - Played RANK, Been wanting this one for a while.
Fire Emblem: Awakening - Not completed, but RANK!, better FE addition than FE6!
Dragon Quest VI - Not completed, but would support
Blue Dragon - Not completed, but would support
Lost Odyssey - Played, Rank I guess. I like this one as a DL game. I actually have an unformatted stat topic of this that I would have totally posted if I'd known this was up for consideration. It takes a slightly different interp for the immortals that's more reflective of in-game, and might have actually gotten some interesting Godlike PCs out of the mix. If the playership is there, I could still post it when I get time if more interesting duelists would change anyone's mind.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 06:17:54 PM »
Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - I feel like Zegai easily gets the OHKO and I'm not a fan of the crit hype.

Okay, -this- is why the hype for Zegai against Lucius unless you use Dhyer's FE views or you factor in killer crits is completely ridiculous. For starters, Zegai's mdef sucks and makes him -below average at taking magic even after factoring in his massive HP-, and that's taking lol Untold Clarity hype into account. I didn't factor in his 1.1% HOLY WEAKNESS EITHER lulz. So, Zegai's effective magic durability is 0.95x PC HP. Lucius deals 35% damage to average, and he's doubling -period- if you allow the mechanic at all besides Dhyer double rate factoring, Zegai's speed is complete trash. With a single turn, he shaves off 73% of Zegai's health. This means that, even if Wrath healed 50% of Zegai's MAXIMUM HP instead of his MISSING HP, he'd just get finished off on the second turn. No crit hype necessary at all, no need for counters, no fancy double-turn shenanigans, just stats doing the talk straight out. For him to win, he needs to OHKO Lucius -period- on the one turn he gets. Considering he has a fairly strong case for missing the OHKO AFTER Wrath's damage buff, that's inane (and, just for the record: if you factor in crit damage, Lucius walks over the fight -anyway- if Zegai misses the OHKO). If you use higher damage views, unless you're going for something above 3x average damage = KO, Lucius is also favored by this, since he still two-rounds Zegai and now Zegai himself struggles CONSIDERABLY MORE to land the kill.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 06:30:08 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2013, 06:58:24 PM »
CK: Yeah, I happen to agree that Katrina is in general too good for Godlike.  (I nommed her anyway myself because there were a bunch of other borderline Bluelikes up there, but hey.)  That said, Fright Knight hype is probably not in order - it's been awhile, but I think that Widespread magic would hit both Katrina & a Knight just fine, and the stat topic claims it's ST damage.  Lady's magic boom boom is largely huge GT, so it can beat the Knights - if Katrina even ever hits that HP trigger, which she might not because Lady will conserve Stock and unleash a D-Combo to finish Katrina off so as not to set up Terrifying Heart shenanigans.  If Katrina wins, it's due to sheer tankiness and outslugging.

Elf: Thanks for the clarification on Wrath, I barely used Zegai in-game (and thus certainly would never nominate him myself) so was pretty much voting off the stat topic, so yeah, easy to miss details like that.  Not a huge difference, but that does make him more of a borderliner.  The thing Zegai has is that he really shouldn't lose physical slugfests in Light due to his immense tankiness, and S5 equips spoil both non-ID status & most elements.  So a large number of Zegai's natural predators, Light mages, just lose anyway due to the spoiling.  You really want to be a Vinsfeld / Lucius type mage who doesn't get their element spoiled to exploit Zegai's bad speed & MDef.  (And even still, Zegai is winning anyway at the moment on votes...)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2013, 07:18:46 PM »
I don't think Zegai is nearly as unbeatable on physicals as you seem to? Do note that he loses to a perfectly average dueller: he needs to Wrath (erasing half the first hit) then is subject to a 4-3 by most views (seeing 1 SD = 20% or 25% is enough), so takes 140% damage overall, which is greater than his physical durability, let alone magical. I disagree that he matches up poorly against Lucius, since he actually has a case for a OHKO here (which everyone who has voted for him is buying) and some views of FE damage leave the mages quite crappy. Wrath!Zegai does 59% (61% with Untold Clarity I guess) to average which doesn't OHKO much of anything even in Light, Lucius is just unusually frail, and OHKOing bypasses his counters. Spoiling elements is pretty cool but so do a bunch of other S5 Lights who don't strike me as significantly worse overall than Zegai (Dinn, Galleon, Logg, etc.).

edit:

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,6286.0.html
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,6286.0.html

To see what I mean, check out this season's Middle. Most of them clobber Zegai effortlessly. The only duellers I'd even expect to get arguments to win are chaos, Rinoa, and Caellach, and I'd vote all three over him (unless chaos is worse than I recall, not looking up a stat topic for this). chaos and Rinoa are both longtime Lights, and the views of Caellach that allow him to lose to Zegai (which are valid, boss scaling and all that) make him an unimpressive Light as well. The elemental spoiling which helps in Light doesn't even go too far in Middle, nulling fire brings his defence to levels so bad he can only beat pure mages, while 40% lightning resist doesn't really cut it there; he easily gets handled by the likes of Cleo or Jeane for instance.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 07:35:51 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2013, 08:05:57 PM »
To add fuel to the fire: Zegai is only even notably tanky to physicals (and I suspect he doesn't even break the 1.6x pdur threshold, which is -very important- when you're slow as he is) with a fully defense-twinked skill setup, which doesn't do wonders to his other stats. Before that, he reduces physical damage by like 5% or something (before HP, mind. Post-HP, he's like 1.4x PC HP, which is only impressive when backed up by -other- slugfesting stats), and barely avoiding a 3HKOed by an average physical when you're getting 4-3'd by the universe (let alone when you're getting 3-2'd!) doesn't lead to a lot of victories. I'd be shocked if he didn't give up the three-rounding through buff => 2HKO with the specific defense setup to boot, so twinking for defense accomplishes pretty much jack squat. Even by your interps, SnowFire, he should be getting 4HKOed by average at his most durable -and- not being able to three-round back because even your caps leave him either 4-3'd by average speed or very close to.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 08:16:08 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Pyro

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2013, 10:53:17 PM »
Godlike

Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Katrina Liane Elesius (Wild ARMs XF): Probably kills in 2 shots at worst. Do you guys just assume Katrina faces a party that is morally opposed to the awesome twinking XF has? Following the same kind of logic should give Lady more than enough durability for this anyway (No Mind's Eyes, buffing, and so on and so forth)

Heavy

Ephraim (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium): Eph goes first, dodges one attack, so must kill in 3. Don't think it happens with Sa-Lews physical reduction and Dhyer thinks even without he still loses, so that works.

Middle

White Rose (SaGa Frontier) vs Gardevoir (Pokémon)

Light

Zegai (Suikoden V) vs Lucius (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword): Zegai's horrible speed shouldn't sink him vs. FE any more than it does others. Lucius has his normal double-rate and loses cleanly.

FE is so much easier when you disregard the "Does he double!?" question. Give in to the dark side, everyone! Actually I'm finding that this interp kinda depowers FE in the DL because it evens out the damage curve to look more like any other game we do stat topics with average damage for. Guess this makes those who were doubled by average suck less but... they honestly didn't seem to care much to start with?

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2013, 11:06:30 PM »
Disregarding fundamental strategical dynamics that significantly dictate the very flow of the game and replacing it with a cointer-intuitive system that completely mangles how offense looks in-game sure makes it easier to interp! Don't mind if I roll my eyes every time you tey to argue for it like it was the best solution ever every time a FE match comes up. It's a valid interp to take, but touting it like it was -the- solution to the game DL-wise is just inane.
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2013, 11:27:08 PM »
Disregarding fundamental strategical dynamics that significantly dictate the very flow of the game and replacing it with a cointer-intuitive system that completely mangles how offense looks in-game sure makes it easier to interp!

But at endgame the doubling average is like 80%. I would argue someone who doubles 80% of time now basically never doubling except against someone slow is mangling how offense looks in game (This is how FE is balanced. Single individual enemies suck, they need a lot of them to team up generally). At endgame, doubling basically is assumed for most PCs against most enemies.

Note that you can still take a base doubling average and move it up or down against enemy speed; it just doesn't really help Lucius much because he's already at 91%.

PCs who were doubled by average don't care as much (by many views, not mine) because free counters against SR tends to even them out against a lot of people.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2013, 11:35:51 PM »
Quote
Sa-Lews physical reduction

It's not reduction, it's immunity (well, reduction to 1 damage, anyway). I don't respect it (it doesn't work against any physicals you're likely to have at that point except BurstRockets) but it is what it is.

Pyro: If you use a doubling rate for FE offence, you should definitely use a doubled rate for durability. While it's not a big difference, I'm going to emphasise it for this match, because it keeps Zegai from OHKOing. If you allow counters, Zegai who doesn't OHKO is facing at least four (probably five, assuming a 4-3) Lucius attacks and is losing regardless.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2013, 11:40:56 PM »
Pyro: If you use a doubling rate for FE offence, you should definitely use a doubled rate for durability. While it's not a big difference, I'm going to emphasise it for this match, because it keeps Zegai from OHKOing. If you allow counters, Zegai who doesn't OHKO is facing at least four (probably five, assuming a 4-3) Lucius attacks and is losing regardless.

The only person that the doubled by rate affects in FE 7 is Wallace, so the effect is really minimal.
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2013, 11:47:30 PM »
Elf / Jo'ou: Yeah, Zegai is trashy in Middle, no arguments there.  Although I'll add that I don't feel so bad about Wrath anymore because double-checking the stat topic it just says "50% healing."  Ah well.  That said...  for the Zegai vs. an average training dummy (DW1 Hero sans-spells?), and assuming S5 DEF/MDEF is subtractive as suggested later on in the stat topic...

Average PDEF, MDEF, HP: 236, 229, 480
Zegai: 282, 177, 598

So if we assume it's pure subtraction, Zegai shaves .10 PCHP off every physical, and takes an extra .11 PCHP from every magical attack.  He's got 1.25 PCHP at base.  So average fighter has a high 5HKO of Zegai, while the average non-elemental mage has a high 3HKO.  Anyway, maybe this interp of defense is totally wrong, but I agree that Zegai is le bad if he's just barely avoiding physical 3HKOs as Jo'ou says, but avoiding the 4HKO from average helps a lot, and helps even more against some of Light's fighters who can't even muster average damage (but are still okay for other reasons).  Anyway, even if Zegai is eating a 3:2 by average (which I don't see), if he's given that durability...  Hero/Zegai/Hero/Hero/Zegai/Hero/Wrath/Hero/Hero/Zegai -> Zegai wins despite being at death's door (2 regular hits + a Wrath hit should kill even a moderately tanky fighter).  He might even win if he's 4HKOed in such a situation if his opponent is a bit frailer.  (Real DW1 Hero probably wins with healing on all the doubling he's getting on this interp, I think.)  Then toss in my higher TB speed caps that pretty much only let speedy characters get a 3:2 on Zegai, and Zegai is a pretty sweet slugfester in Light.

Pyro: I'm pretty much with Jo'ou on this one on your evangelism.  You've played FE games!  What is it you check before moving a character, especially a character with suspect speed, into enemy territory?  Whether they get doubled by the enemies that'll be in range to attack, of course, because of the huge and often fatal difference between getting doubled & not getting doubled.  Don't get me wrong, the whole doubled percentages thing is neat, but it gives up this extremely huge part of in-game FE play, and I can't consider that anything but a flaw.  If a character doubles half the enemies, doesn't get doubled by 45%, and is doubled by 5% of them, their offense is not "consistently ~1.5 times a normal attack no matter who they face," it's spiky, and their defense is generally fine except when they run into the occasional speedster.

Now, the reason to go ahead and use it anyway is "blargh I can't find anything in the DL that corresponds to FE AS" and not wanting to assume that all DL enemies are average AS, which leads to the giant split of doom between "faster than +3.5 AS" and "not."  So yeah, I respect the view, but I can't really see it as a hypable "FE's perfect translation to the DL with no more issues."  It's a different translation to the DL is all that gives up a rather key feature to in-game battles.  (It should be noted that if Zegai was a FE character, I have very little difficulty believing he'd be the General type, since he fits most of it already - low evade/parry, high DEF, lowish MDEF, low number of attacks, while someone like S5 Richard is clearly a Myrmidon with a high number of attacks, just like FE Myrmidons.  So you can make a holistic argument that even if you use doubled rates for unknown AS DL enemies, you can take a good guess from S5 number-of-attacks, at least for the fighters.)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 1 Final
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2013, 11:49:34 PM »
There are two enemies in the last map who double anyone with less than 22 speed, and that's on Normal Mode. I'm not sure what you used as your sample space but hopefully you do include bosses, because randoms-only NM FE7 makes for things like 0 luck and 90 hit as the average.

Snowfire: Zegai can only hit that type of def by setting a skill for it, which drops his offence down considerably (and more to the point, I'd scale it against the rest of the cast setting the same skill, so the average would rise). He can also set Untold Clarity (which is what the stat topic has to my chagrin), but a good number of us punt the skill (I couldn't afford it by endgame for anyone except Freyjadour, and not by much for him. It requires you to master every other physical skill).

Without the skill, Zegai is a merely leather armour user (contrast, say, Freyjadour and Lyon who wear chain), so his Def should be average at best.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:54:29 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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