Redoing an old season: S18 W4- I have no witty comment, but Rosa vs Elc is cool.

[superaielman]

Sephiroth>Yunalesca
Chaos>Psaro
Virgil 4, X-Death 3
Rashidi>Ted

Seed 5, Decus 3
Maya>Rofel
Rosa>Liete
Elc>Velhart


Rauny>Beowulf
Fiora>Gallows
Kyra>Blastoise
Mia>Cagnazzo

Garet>Cray
Luna>Wan Fu
Rico>Marcus
Jean>Cyan

Godlike:

Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1)
Virgil (XS) vs Rashidi (OB)

Heavy:

Seed (S2) vs Maya (WA3)
Rosa (FF4) vs Elc (AtLC)

Middle:

Rauny (OB) vs Fiora (FE7)
Kyra (PS4) vs Mia (GS)

Light:

Garet (GS) vs Luna (Lunar:SSSC)
Rico (XG) vs Jean (BoF2)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1) - shadow flare shadow flare shadow flare
Luis Virgil (XS) vs Rashidi (OB) - Man, Rashidi's seriously making it to the finals? Anyhow, this is pretty intuitive. Ein Rugel's speed and offense combo is pretty bad along with lol HP (Rashidi 2HKOs that before it gets any chance to get a turn) and Doppelwogel can't OHKO even with Eternal Storm (if barely). Rashidi's got non-elemental damage to boot, so he just overwhelms.

Seed (S2) vs Maya Schroedinger (WA3) - EDIT: Seed actually -can- chip Maya, Flaming Arrows is considerably weaker than I thought it was. Flaming Arrows => Silent Lake => physical x2, the works.
Rosa Farrel (FF4) vs Elc (AtLC) - EDIT: Sure, Mind Buster being better than I remember works. Magic thresholds in AtL2 are weird.

Rauny Vinzalf (OB) vs Fiora (FE7) - Dear god, this fight fails. EDIT: right, Fiora doesn't lose offense. Far less sure on Rauny hitting all flares even with her solid accuracy, though, which probably tilts the fight to Fiora's advantage for me. Oh, and the precedent set by FE10 for MT not being able to double also applies. This isn't enough to make Fiora want to switch to a Silver Spear, though - that's a steep evade hit.

Rico Banderas (XG) vs Ekaru Hoppe du Death Jean (BoF2) - Death.

[superaielman]

Godlike:

Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1)- Shadow Flare, yeesh. Chaos no likely things that ignore his defenses.
Virgil (XS) vs Rashidi (OB)- Snow basically covered my reaction.  Rashidi has 99 problems but blitzing ain't one of them.

Heavy:

Seed (S2) vs Maya (WA3)- Kneejerk that he can chip enough here.
Rosa (FF4) vs Elc (AtLC)- E: Sure, I'll bite.

Middle:

Rauny (OB) vs Fiora (FE7)-

Neat fight.

Fiora drops Thunder Flare to a 4HKO before evasion. Counters aren't relevant, Thunder Flare is MT. Fiora 3HKOs back with a Killer Edge offhand (If I'm reading the topic right, Kiling Edge does 19 damage barring crits).  Rauny goes first. Let's assume that Rauny doesn't get WTA as she's using a spell instead of her spear.  She wants the Killing Edge regardless of crits. A Silver Lance might get her doubled, Slim Spear/Iron sword aren't as damaging.  Fiora is average hit with a Killing Edge. 

For Rauny to win, she has to hit four times in a row, evade once, and not get critted. The crits are enough to make me abstain for now, think Rauny can manage the first two well enough.

Kyra (PS4) vs Mia (GS)- Mia's slow, not damaging, and fragile. Kyra resists her one status trick as well!

Light:

Garet (GS) vs Luna (Lunar:SSSC)- Stun hitting is death. Luna might be able to keep him on the ropes long enough with sleep, but I lean towards it not being enough.
Rico (XG) vs Jean (BoF2)

Edit to Snow: Slim Spear doesn't 3HKO Rauny, Fiora is sticking to with a sword here.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Super: you're right, for some reason I didn't connect Rauny going for Thunder Flare with Fiora not bothering with a spear (FE in-game sets the precedent that the triangle only applies to the attack currently being used, after all). Derpinator overload.

[Nephrite]

Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1)
Virgil (XS) vs Rashidi (OB)

Heavy:

Seed (S2) vs Maya (WA3)
Rosa (FF4) vs Elc (AtLC)

Middle:

Rauny (OB) vs Fiora (FE7) - Not giving FE double credit for MT here, so Rauny wins via avoiding a hit from Fiora really easily to me.
Kyra (PS4) vs Mia (GS)

Light:

Garet (GS) vs Luna (Lunar:SSSC)
Rico (XG) vs Jean (BoF2)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The MT double credit works -against- Rauny in this fight, not for. Neither is doubling each other unless Fiora equips a heavy weapon. Hell, if Fiora doubled, this fight would be a slaughter in her favor.

[Random Consonant]

Godlike:

Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1)

Heavy:

Seed (S2) vs Maya (WA3) - No.
Rosa (FF4) vs Elc (AtLC) - okay yeah convinced.

Middle:

Kyra (PS4) vs Mia (GS)

Light:

Garet (GS) vs Luna (Lunar:SSSC)
Rico (XG) vs Jean (BoF2)

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:

Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1)
Virgil (XS) vs Rashidi (OB)

Heavy:

Seed (S2) vs Maya (WA3)
Rosa (FF4) vs Elc (AtLC)- This one is kind of clear cut to me, same as before. Elc opens with Invincible L2 or L3. Rosa uses Reflect, because her eating 50% MMP bust is bad (Her MDef isn't so impressive that's it's bringing her down more; Elc's initial MP damage tier with BW is 64% MMP). Then...Elc physicals her. And she...can't heal through Reflect and Reflect won't work on top of Invincible. She can't Image, reflect is up.

So she has to Image first. Elc L2 Invins, and then takes away 50% of her MMP. Rosa Reflects. Elc L2 Invinc, Rosa...attacks, Elc takes one hit down of Image, Rosa...attacks, Elc L2 Invinc, Rosa...attacks (Reflect is about wearing off now or next turn. If she recasts now she cuts off restoring Image during it. If she waits to recast, then Elc eats all her MP). Elc attacks and Image is lifted. Rosa...well, reflect. L3 Invin/Rosa Attack/Elc Attack/Rosa Attack/Elc Attacks (If Reflect wears off, Elc can finish her off with anything at this point)

She literally she no offensive options against Invin. Her best important defensive option shuts off her two other important defensive options, but if she doesn't use Reflect, she'll soon be unable to use anything but her physical.

Middle:

Rauny (OB) vs Fiora (FE7)
Kyra (PS4) vs Mia (GS)

Light:

Garet (GS) vs Luna (Lunar:SSSC)
Rico (XG) vs Jean (BoF2)

Rest later!

[Nephrite]

What is stopping Rosa from Dispelling Invincible?

[Dhyerwolf]

FF 4 Dispel can't even get Reflect, so defensive spells that have a logical reason to stop it should.

[Nephrite]

But... it gets everything else? I don't really see why it not getting Reflect has anything to do with it, Invincible doesn't reflect anything.

Is there anything besides Reflect that Dispel doesn't pick up?

EDIT:

Going on this, this is just preliminary...

Elc opens with Invincible L2. (-24)
Rosa casts Dispel.
Elc casts Invincible L2 again. (-24)
Rosa casts Blink
Elc attacks (Blink -1), casts Invincible L2 again. (-24)
Rosa casts Dispel.
Elc casts Invincible L2 (-24)
...
This continues until Elc runs out of MP. Obviously, that isn't going to get him anywhere.

Instead, if Rosa goes for Blink, he'll cast Mind Buster instead. Here's my question: Does Invincible prevent the application of POSITIVE status? If it does not, then Rosa can just bounce spells off Elc's Reflect.

But assuming that doesn't work...

Elc opens with L2 Invincible.
Rosa Dispels.
Elc Invincible L2
Rosa Blink
Elc Mind Buster, Invincible L2
Rosa Reflect
Elc Invincible L2
Rosa Dispel
Elc attack (blink -1), Invincible L2
Rosa Dispel
Elc Invincible L2
Rosa Dispel
Elc attack (blink -1), Invincible L2

I guess my question is whether or not Rosa runs out of MP via Mind Bustering and casting Dispel, or if Elc runs out of the juice to cast Invincible in this scenario?

[Dhyerwolf]

Reflect and Invincible are the same in this case in that they specifically block classifications of attacks (magic/everything). When FF 4 Dispel faces a spell whose effect fully counters it in game (reflect all magic), it loses. I don't believe that there are any other similar spells that it would get in FF 4. Since Invincible is just "blocks everything" there's not reason to see why FF 4 Dispel would trump it (Another dispel that actually worked on everything in game or at least similar items might be another story).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I was going to respond to Neph about FF4 Dispel's issue, but Dhyer summed it up very neatly, with the added caveat that there's nothing in-game that dispels Invincible (the game -does- lack Dispel, in fairness. However, when the opposing Dispel has a precedent going against it... I'd see, say, Yuna dispel working against Elc, but not Rosa dispel. I'd mock Dekaja hype against Invincible as well).

[Pyro]

Godlike:

Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1): Shadow Flare.
Virgil (XS) vs Rashidi (OB)

Heavy:

Seed (S2) vs Maya (WA3): I suppose she wins on durability? Honestly not too sure here.
Rosa (FF4) vs Elc (AtLC): Invincible -> Mind Bustering works. If Rosa doesn't Wall she loses out MP. If she DOES Wall she can't heal. I guess her best bet would be to Blink and take  a single Mind Buster before trying to go under Wall in an attempt to run Elc out of MP. Doubtful this can work, especially since Elc has fire magic or Extract to deal damage, and can use L3 Invincible to get to her faster.

And Elc can sacrifice his Physical Durability to get status immunity, which would remove Rosa's threat. She could try to Wall him, but he can respond by using Invincible to negate her ability to reflect spells off of him.

Middle:

Rauny (OB) vs Fiora (FE7)
Kyra (PS4) vs Mia (GS)

Light:

Garet (GS) vs Luna (Lunar:SSSC)
Rico (XG) vs Jean (BoF2): More Death.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike:

Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1): OHKOs. (Doesn't have to.)

Heavy:

Seed (S2) vs Maya (WA3): uhhh hmm. This is good. Seed's argument to win is to use magic + waste turn (Silent Lake!), then kill with a double physical on turn 2, surviving the Maya non-limit turn. This... is actually a pretty good case, I think it works if Maya is anywhere from 77% to 112% PCHP. She's pretty close to the high end of that to me... but yeah, think she falls within it.

Light:

Rico (XG) vs Jean (BoF2): I can somehow only vote on three matches this week, and two of them are slaughters.

[superaielman]

Did any type of status get through Invincible?

And Elc can sacrifice his Physical Durability to get status immunity, which would remove Rosa's threat. She could try to Wall him, but he can respond by using Invincible to negate her ability to reflect spells off of him.

I don't think Invincible stopped non damaging effects that were already in place, positive or negative.

[Pyro]

No status gets through Invincible.

Reflect would not stop Invincible, and with 'both up' Invincible would negate an attack rather than reflect it. There is a similar dynamic with a magic shield spell in AtL2.

[Cmdr_King]

Godlike:

Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1)
Virgil (XS) vs Rashidi (OB)- No vote.

Heavy:

Seed (S2) vs Maya (WA3)
Rosa (FF4) vs Elc (AtLC)- No vote.

Middle:

Rauny (OB) vs Fiora (FE7)- No vote
Kyra (PS4) vs Mia (GS)

Light:

Garet (GS) vs Luna (Lunar:SSSC)
Rico (XG) vs Jean (BoF2)

[Dhyerwolf]

Did any type of status get through Invincible?

And Elc can sacrifice his Physical Durability to get status immunity, which would remove Rosa's threat. She could try to Wall him, but he can respond by using Invincible to negate her ability to reflect spells off of him.

I don't think Invincible stopped non damaging effects that were already in place, positive or negative.

He's faster so he'll never not be under Invincible unless he's run out of MP. And Reflect can't go on top of Invincible, as I believe is stops most positive stuff too.

[Lance]

Godlike
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Chaos (FF1)
Virgil (XS) vs Rashidi (OB)

Heavy
Seed (S2) vs Maya (WA3)

Middle
Rauny (OB) vs Fiora (FE7)

Light
Rico (XG) vs Jean (BoF2)

[superaielman]

Rauny>Fiora. Crits make it interesting, but Fiora's average accuracy likely sinks her. Unsure on Elc/Rosa. I should figure out how much Rosa can wring out of haste.  Haste does speed up how quickly Reflect wears off, which is a problem.

[Dhyerwolf]

Isn't FF 4 Haste notoriously bad for mages? Rosa is already sluggish, so given that FF 4 Haste is pretty bad, if she's lucky it will bring her up to Elc's speed!

[Pyro]

How is being faster supposed to help Rosa anyway?

[Dhyerwolf]

It might let her double at a critical time and let her get up image and reflect. Never helps her get around Invincible. Realistically with the amount of time the fight is going on, Elc may sneak a double in there (since after turn 1 he's average speed, but Rosa is still a slug). Him doubling is also really only relevant if it's at the right time, but the idea is there.

[superaielman]

Yeah, Mind Buster's too much. Vote changed.