Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 111

[Nephrite]

"Hm... I wonder how much you'll like the new design of things? Let us see if you can finally reach the deepest amount of respect I have for you!"


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.
**Characters that join after the start are locked into the relative stats they have at that time until they would officially join.

Team dude | Rika, Elincia, Mew, Yukiko, Nall (Elemental Advance)
[Mew: Light Screen, Swords Dance, Explosion, Psychic
Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"
**Half damage is done and received on the first action of each team.
Team vs. Katt, Rand, Bow, Nina2, Deis2, Jean, and Spar
Team vs. Jack (WA1), Cecilia (ACF), Rudy (WA1), Emma(ACF) and Zed (ACF)
Team vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Anastasia, Kurando and Blanca


Team Snowfire | Elincia, Yuna (MT), Arnaud, Stocke, Hawk
Floor 3b: Divided you Fail
[Hawk: Ninja]
**35% of all damage done by the player team is returned to the character who dealt it as ITD damage, based on whatever damage would be done to the target after all reductions.
Team vs. Dalton and Augst
Team vs. Shadow Yukiko & Shadow Naoto
Team vs. Ike, Soren, Titania & Mist (FE9 forms)

Team Jo'ou's Fancy Princesses and Yuri | Yuri1, Mei-ling, Hilda(Speed?) and Garnet
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Jo'ou vs. Big Joe, Evil Gaia, 10 Jogurts, VP1 Hrist, Euram Barrows, Gobi, DQ1 Slime, Garland and Igglanova (PS4)
Team Jo'ou vs. Cecil, Kain and Rosa
Team Jo'ou vs. Augus and MC Tusk (BoF2)

Team Yoshiken | Shadow, Ramza, Tidus, Elincia, Moulder (Vantage)
[Ramza: Summoner, Item, Counter Magic, Move HP-Up]
[Floor 4a: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Yoshiken vs. Ramus, Luna, Laike and Tempest
Team Yoshiken vs. Kyra, Hahn and Demi
Team Yoshiken vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel, Precis and Chisato
Team Yoshiken vs. Palom, Porom, Tellah, Fusoya and Yang
Team Yoshiken vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis

Multitarget - One person on the team's actions all become Multitargetted. However, the damage of regular attacks, the healing of all spells that restore HP or MP, the status rates of status spells or attacks and the effect of buffs or debuffs (rounded down to the nearest half point in the case of Pokemon) is reduced by 33%. (Deadly Fingertips has a 67% chance of inflicting ID for example) Moves that were originally MT are not affected by this. This sealstone may be moved. In the case of revival, this affects the amount of HP restored, not the chance of revival occuring. Moves that have two types of effects (healing + buffing) are both decreased.

Elemental Advance - Elemental weaknesses are removed for both the player and enemy team. Elemental spells and attacks cannot be absorbed, resisted, or nullified by enemies. If an elemental weakness were normally hit by a player character, that character may cast that same spell again against ONLY the targets that are weak to that spell.

Vantage Effect - Counterattack abilities activate before being attacked and also increases the chance of any counter attack activation skill to 100%.

Speed? - The effective speed of one character is set to 120% (1.2x) average speed. This number may be further increased by Haste effects.

[Dhyerwolf]

What happened to Yoshiken's team?

[Nephrite]

He hasn't given me enough information to post his team yet.

[SnowFire]

A few notes on my team first (though this floor shouldn't be particularly dangerous) to make it easier to vote on.  First off, from eyeballing the Sphere Grid, Yuna may have Protect by now.  (She should definitely have Shell, I think.)  If you think that Protect is F3, then this floor is seriously LOL'd - Protect is excellent, and even with the penalty, it's still -34% physical damage, which seriously mocks the FE9 fight.  (And MT Shell mocks the P4 Shadow fight.)

Second off, Hawk, because :sd3: mechanics.  He gets his Jutsus now on upgrade, which for those who haven't played SD3 / didn't use Hawk or Lise, are excellent and the only reason Hawk is worth a damn in the Dungeon.  Let me just C&P from Meeple's topic (which is amazing in that it takes a total mess of a system for the DL and makes it mostly work):

Shurikens: 160, Lowers Hit rate (aka Slow Status), 1 MP, .75 Seconds
Water Jutsu: 212 Water/Ice Damage, Lowers Attack Power, 3 MP, 2.00 Seconds
Fire Jutsu: 212 Fire Damage, Lowers Magic Defense and Magic Power, 3 MP, 2.00 Seconds
Thunder Jutsu: 212 Thunder/Wind Damage, Lowers Physical Defense, 3 MP, 2.00, seconds
Earth Jutsu: 212 Earth Damage, Lowers Evade and Hit Rate, 3 MP, 2.00 Seconds

Average turn length is guesstimated at 2.25 seconds; Meeple's guesstimate of average damage per round is 437 (but I think that's a tad high from my interps, but still an excellent starting point).  So some things to note:
* All of the Jutsus have mildly above average initiative.  Shurikens have seriously great initiative.  (But I don't recommend hyping Shurikens for spamming it multiple times a turn, same reason I'm not really down with Carlie spams Unicorn super-fast hype.)  Damage is nothing special though, around half average (~.20 PCHP) off Meeple's numbers, and only mildly better with my numbers (~.23 PCHP?)
* Lowering the "hit rate" really means "slow."  Wat.  (For Shurikens & Earth Jutsu.)
* Lowering the evade rate on Earth Jutsu's efficacy is hard to estimate because enemies with notable evasion vs. your hit are rare-to-nonexistent, and probably require intentionally underlevelling your characters and fighting the Black Rabite or the like.  It's probably good, but also nearly irrelevant, and thus hard to respect too much.
* Water/Fire/Thunder Jutsu, like Lise's buffs & debuffs, are great.  SD3 has subtractive elements in its system so these are hard to estimate - sometimes they can reduce enemies to doing 1 damage, other times it "merely" might be a -33% drop in their offense or so.  I'd estimate that the offense drop on average is around -50% [physical / magical] damage for [Water / Fire] Jutsu.  From Meeple's numbers in the damage topic, he estimated that the defense drop from Thunder Jutsu caused enemies to take +50% physical damage; presumably it's similar for the magic defense drop from Fire Jutsu.  Also note that these are only single target...  for now. (insert ominous distant thunder here)
* The debuffs work on every single enemy in the game, yes including bosses, and last the entire fight.


Team Snowfire | Elincia, Yuna (MT), Arnaud, Stocke, Hawk
Floor 3b: Divided you Fail
[Hawk: Ninja]
**35% of all damage done by the player team is returned to the character who dealt it as ITD damage, based on whatever damage would be done to the target after all reductions.
Team vs. Dalton and Augst
Really?  Really?  Yeah no.
Team vs. Shadow Yukiko & Shadow Naoto
MT Shell + Slow Down causes severe problems for them.  They can't ever threaten which lets healbotting deal with the counter damage.
Team vs. Ike, Soren, Titania & Mist (FE9 forms)
As noted above, if you allow Yuna's MT Protect, EZ.  Assuming no...  it doesn't matter because Elincia is at her absolute strongest right now (has Amiti, is a Tier 3 unit compared with a mass of low level T2s) and both Stocke & Yuna have revival.  Stocke murders Soren with Power Slash (remember, before F6 or so, Stocke's best damage is actually physical anyway), a combination of Arnaud & Hawk debuffs + Elincia smash should overkill Ike (or help finish Soren if you hype SOREN DEFENSE), and Titania & Mist aren't soloing.

So yeah, I pass.

[SnowFire]

Team dude | Rika, Elincia, Mew, Yukiko, Nall (Elemental Advance)
[Mew: Light Screen, Swords Dance, Explosion, Psychic
Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"
**Half damage is done and received on the first action of each team.
Team vs. Katt, Rand, Bow, Nina2, Deis2, Jean, and Spar
Maybe later.

Team vs. Jack (WA1), Cecilia (ACF), Rudy (WA1), Emma(ACF) and Zed (ACF)
Uh.  We've got problems here.  Okay, rocket tag speed offs.  Taken literally, Zed has 132% speed, Jack has 131% speed, and Rika has 128% speed, but blah blah taking speed literally can lead to weird things etc.  Using standard deviations, Rika is +1.7 or so, Zed is +.54, and Jack is +1.15.  BUT this might understate Jack a bit, both Jack & Rika are the fastest in their cast by a good margin, but Rika's simply in a larger cast.

Anyway, I'd see Jack & Rika as having coinflip speed by default, which is problematic when Jack has MT ID that nobody on Team Dude immunes (though he does have some okay resistance).  So let's throw Team dude a bone and say Rika definitely goes first, which is fair enough.  Rika absolutely MUST Eliminat Jack lest he use Void, which would be bad times, except that Eliminat is resisted by agility, so the hit rate is notably lower than normal vs. Jack (probably ~50-60% rather than its usual 70%).  IF Rika hits with it, Team dude still isn't out of the woods, as Zed has  the following ability:
Dancing Heaven- 6 chances of 37.5% ID
which are randomly distributed among the team.  This is slightly less horrible than Void but not much.  So either dude has to have Eliminat connect and have good luck vs. Dancing Heaven, or Eliminat can whiff (/ Rika does something else) + have insanely good luck with Void & Dancing Heaven whiffing a lot.  Elincia's Leadership doesn't even help much here, since status evade in FE is apparently purely based on RES, not on dodginess.  (But Elincia herself has good RES, which should help.)

If Mew survives the ID blitz, a #YOLO Explosion strategy hoping that Elincia dodges it + Yukiko autorevive is questionable, as Zed is quite tanky and should definitely survive, and Rudy & Jack have reasonable arguments for surviving as well.  And...  actually never mind, the floor quirk means that Explosion sucks anyway.  Mew needed a status move from the TM here with that quirk.  Anyway, Mew & Elincia need to go kill Emma or something so that the status nonsense doesn't continue, have Yukiko fix damage, and hope that Rika can ID Zed the next turn or something...  but that's assuming people are alive, which is questionable.

Yeah this battle could maybe use a nerf.

Team vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Anastasia, Kurando and Blanca

Fail for Team dude.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Saying Jack's speed is better than Rika when it's as easy as it is to have RUDY be faster than Jack is kinda holistically offensive to me. Enemies also outspeed Jack in-game as often as Rika in a game with far less speed randomization. Nevermind how they look in deviations. I honestly don't think Jack speed is being undersold there at all. >_>

[Dark Holy Elf]

Rika's Elim rate is 80% base, not 70% (70 is Hahn). Should be noted that's already taken against an enemy average which is a touch higher than the one she faces in-game, so the rate's a touch underrated if anything. Jack's definitely slower than her, +1.15 vs. +1.7 is not terribly close, and yes Rika deserves credit for being much faster than 8 people instead of 2 (if you need further cause to disrespect Jack's speed, do note that giving Rudy a Spd+ medium will vault him to game-best speed, to say nothing of Cecilia. My respect for base speed differences in WA1o isn't terribly high).

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think one needs squint very hard to see Rika taking out Jack. Zed's definitely a problem, but do remember that he needs to hit to ID things, as the move is attached to some light physical damage if I'm reading FAQs right, and virtually all physical attacks in ACF are evadable so I would doubt Dancing Heaven is an exception without seeing proof. I'd imagine odds are Yukiko and Elincia survive it at the very least, as such. Not sure if that's enough, granted. Weird battle, it folds pretty rapidly to a good status quickdraw (WA aren't very good at dealing with status, especially ACF) but spoils damage and has loads of status itself. A team with lots of ID immunity also largely spoils it, though.

[SnowFire]

Re speed: Let me just say again that I did assume that Rika was faster than Jack.  However, strictly going by the stat topic, the naive speed of Jack & Zed is in fact higher than Rika.  It's a data point, just throwing that out there.  The real best test is "consistently outspeeding enemies" of course, which Jo'ou seems to say is about equivalent between the two.  (But fair enough that DL-illegal Guardians and the like would screw with the speed average and effectively push everyone's speed higher which makes Jack less impressive, I'm down with that argument similar to how FF8 character stat differences should really be ignored since they're just overwhelmed by Junctions in-game, so good as any reason to favor Rika.)

Re Elf: I dunno, I'm not really inclined to say that Rika shows anything meaningful by outspeeding 6-8 characters vs. 2.  Let's flip things slightly: take two bosses in turn-based games who always go first in-game.  Boss A faces 3 PCs; in the other, Boss B faces 6 PCs.  Does that mean that boss B which faced 6 is "speedier" somehow than the one that faced 3?  Both just "went first..."

...but whatever, as noted, I'm fine with assuming Rika goes first anyway.  Also thanks for the correction, that was me CTRL-Fing "Elim" and taking the first hit rate I saw.  Can someone else confirm if Dancing Heaven has cruddy damage attached?  The stat topic doesn't mention it, but if it's true, that does help dude's case, since then Elincia's Leadership helps screw with it, and Elincia herself becomes nearly impossible to hit.

[Dhyerwolf]

It does (for all that I think giving Elincia Authority boosts at this point is kind of questionable because 1. It implies that killing her ends the match and 2. She's lost it for a very large chunk of the game anyways at this point). That said, would need to check how Heaven's Wrath acc was calced.

[Dark Holy Elf]

In the absence of any other data, I'd certainly respect Boss B's speed more than Boss A's, yes, and am kinda surprised you wouldn't.

Let's take this to its logical extreme. Boss P is in a solo game, but goes first (like, presumably, ~half the enemies in the game). Boss Q is in a Suikoden, and outspeeds all 108 stars. It's very clear to me that Q is faster (again, in the absence of any other data).

One of the nice thing about using standard deviations is it reflects situations like this well!

[Nephrite]

PS: As I had not confirmed the actual forms for the Wild Arms fight, if dude wishes to take the other floor he certainly may.

[SnowFire]

Dhyer: Pretty sure Dungeon Elincia is explicitly assumed to have Leadership bonuses priced in, that was certainly some of the intent with sticking her in; certainly it's not like she's on a team with Ike who'd steal command from her, since her team is explicitly this one, not the FE10 crew.  That said, and I think I mentioned this before, it would be reasonable to assume the leadership bonuses are lost on her death though, regained come next battle.  (Definitely disagree with Game Over, though; that's totally separate from being Leader, just vanilla Fire Emblem rules, and nobody has assumed that to be true for Lyn/Eph/etc. who also game over you in-game if they die.)

Elf: Solo bosses are their own special pile of interp fail.  But no, I don't think outspeeding more characters particularly shows anything interesting for outspeeding 3 vs. outspeeding 108 (well, more like 60, some of those 108 are cooks or detectives).  It's the same exact result in-game: both go first before your turn.  If it was direly important to know who went first and just saying "they go simultaneously" was unsatisfying, I'd look for reasons where their speed could fail, or reasons to disrespect it - perhaps one game has a powerful Haste spell (or even auto-Haste equipment) that lets you outspeed the boss.  Maybe one game has moves with initiative that beat the "infinite" speed.  Maybe in one-game, a little extra levelling can make your fastest character win, while in the other that doesn't work.  That kinda stuff, and same with PC speeds.  Going back to Rika vs. Jack, that's why the "Hey Guardians exist, speed is very twinkable in WA1, Jack isn't really that fast comparatively" is a compelling case that Rika should be seen as faster, but "Rika is in a party with more characters" isn't.

Re team dude: Hmm, all of this does help, I'm just not sure it helps enough.  A 60-70% hit rate, while perhaps "turn 1", shouldn't be seen as guaranteed, so Rika's miss chance vs. Jack should be remembered and baked in, especially when there's a bunch of inaccurate ID chances coming in.  Even with all that evasion & resistance stacking up, 6 shots is a lot, and dude doesn't even want to lose 1 character with 4 characters.  If Mew dies that's sort of okay (Mew isn't much of a player with that moveset), but if Yukiko dies the team has to rely on Nall revival (the auto-revival doesn't help, ACF Rudy is faster and has high accuracy to kill her again), if Rika dies, it's obvious terrible things happen, and if Elincia dies, then Emma will live to throw more status around (she might live anyway with the floor quirk giving her super-defense on turn 1), and that'll get Command Replay'd, and it'll be terrible.  Even if everyone lives, something random like Cecilia casting Quick on Zed means that Zed will win the speedbreak on round 2 and get to unleash 6 more shots of 37.5% ID.  It just seems a very uphill battle, so standing by the fail.  Mew just plain has the wrong moveset for this floor, Light Screen is useless & Explosion is questionable, Mew needed to have disabling status attempts or Safeguard or both to be useful here.

[dude789]

PS: As I had not confirmed the actual forms for the Wild Arms fight, if dude wishes to take the other floor he certainly may.

I'll stick with this version. Floor 7 or so is probably the ceiling for this team. It was mainly a joke team designed around the hilarity of Saner-Explosion dodging.

[Dhyerwolf]

Unlike Lyn and Ephraim, Elincia in this case is getting a specific bonus from being leader though. If it's specifically priced in to dungeon, that's something else.

Team dude | Rika, Elincia, Mew, Yukiko, Nall (Elemental Advance)
[Mew: Light Screen, Swords Dance, Explosion, Psychic
Floor 7b: Did you say "Final Battle?"
**Half damage is done and received on the first action of each team.
Team vs. Katt, Rand, Bow, Nina2, Deis2, Jean, and Spar
Turn order is Rika>Deis>Katt>Mew>Elincia>Bow>Nina>Spar>Yukiko>Jean>Rand

So Rika IDs Deis. If it doesn't hit, Deis is free to ID Rika back. Elincia could knock out Nina, but Mew couldn't really knock out anyone alone. Bow would get an ID chance, Spar can SILENCE Yukiko, and Jean would bring more ID. So basically Deis would need to go. With that in mind, Mew and Elincia team up to get Nina out. Bow would get a 50/50 ID chance against Rika, Spar could get Silence Yukiko (which I'm assuming it good enough for turn 1 I guess). Think even at 25% SD Rika just misses the natural double on Jean, so she would be IDed regardless. Rand could 70% chance of reviving someone. Obviously coming around without Rika and Silenced Yukiko is dangerous. Katt I guess has just been hitting Mew. This seems like even without Deis, it ends badly.

Team vs. Jack (WA1), Cecilia (ACF), Rudy (WA1), Emma(ACF) and Zed (ACF)- If the team does get here, yes, Rika needs to ID Jack. And she needs it to hit turn 1 again (Which considering she also needing to hit Deis turn 1, is less likely to get both). If people come in with 1 HP left and Rika doesn't heal, Zed can at least aim for them. Again, this could go very badly.

Team vs. Yuri2, Karin, Joachim, Gepetto, Anastasia, Kurando and Blanca- ID is out. Um...what does Explosion run off of? Looking at the FRLG topic, I realize that I have little basis for what Mew's Explosion would actually do. Regirock has the same attack, and it does 124. Golem with 130 does 267. So...let's assume that Explosion isn't getting them turn 1 even with Shift in play. All of them attack in a general group with AoE and MT. Would also see problems here. Now of course Rika can buff evade (and speed too, which means that she may not be doubled coming next round) to get basic physicals out and Mew can Reflect, but the problems are that Anastasia is knocking someone out with status, and obviously the other 5 can combine to get another person out regardless with physical techs (and Joachim may do it alone with that 60% chance, although he goes last so it's not very relevant).

Gut says Dungeon wins. All the fights present problems, and Rika needing to probably get turn 1 status on both Jack and Deis may be sub 50% chance.

[Magic Fanatic]

Can someone else confirm if Dancing Heaven has cruddy damage attached?  The stat topic doesn't mention it, but if it's true, that does help dude's case, since then Elincia's Leadership helps screw with it, and Elincia herself becomes nearly impossible to hit.

According to Split Infinity's guide, Dancing Heaven deals damage if, and only if, Zed uses Full Power with it.  Zed using Full Power here is a very bad idea, since it brings his REA to 0, despite increasing his ATK by 1.75x...  Nevermind that he won't have the FP to use it turn 1.

[Nephrite]

Yoshi's matches are up.

[SnowFire]

Hmm, F4 definitely got an upgrade.  The mobs are out in force.  Also as noted last week, I see Hastega / Slowga as F5 for Tidus, not F4.  (But if you see it as F4, Yoshi's in excellent shape, open with one of those all the time while huffing Ethers.)

Team Yoshiken | Shadow, Ramza, Tidus, Elincia, Moulder (Vantage)
[Ramza: Summoner, Item, Counter Magic, Move HP-Up]
[Floor 4a: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Yoshiken vs. Ramus, Luna, Laike and Tempest
Scrubs.
Team Yoshiken vs. Kyra, Hahn and Demi
Uhh...  don't know PS4 that well, so going to ignore macro/combo stuff here.  Tandle & Phenominzier sound like they don't trigger Counter Magic since they don't use TP, and they're MT, so they don't really trigger counters at all (unless Shadow's Interceptor gets MT stuff which we never really determined).  And there's a shameful lack of MT healing here, so Hahn can just finish the sweep with his own MT if all three live to take turns, and just Kyra & Demi are probably enough to zot Tidus at least, and quite possibly Ramza as well (Summoner HP, he has high Faith).

Anyway.  Shadow throws a Fire Skean.  Tidus Delay Busters one of Kyra/Demi.  The PS4 char who didn't unleashes MT.  Ramza probably tries to sneak Moogle in with the time granted by Delay Buster for some meh MT healing to not die.  Elincia doubles & kills Hahn.  Moulder throws some more healing around (Tidus, prolly).  THe Buster'd PS4 character unleashes MT.  Shadow throws another Skean, and now they're all weak enough to be plinked at and killed with Tidus physicals and the like.  Leave one alive to heal up.

Team Yoshiken vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel, Precis and Chisato
That's a lot of dudes.  Did Noel have revival?

Ramza really wants to get Golem off here, but with charge times that's surely slower than average, so Team Yoshi will have to eat a turn of offense.  And Ramza is the only reviver.  And he has Counter Magic rather than Auto-Potion.  Blargh, Auto-Potion would be perfect here.  But there's just no way that Yoshi's team can sweep enough SOers to save Ramza here.  Elincia kills one, Tidus + Shadow kill another, that leaves 4, and only Noel's damage is truly mockable.  Doesn't help that Ramza is frailer than usual, too.  Elincia evasion helps a little, but vs. multihit SO characters, it's more like a damage debuff, but probably not enough.  (If Ramza had a shield, it'd help more.)  Maybe a perfectly timed Moogle can heal Ramza in the middle of his beatdown?

Anyway, thinking the Dungeon team can blitz out Ramza.  Doing so means the SOers defnitely die, and by Round 2 Moulder & Elincia can get things under control, but they've done their damage.

Team Yoshiken vs. Palom, Porom, Tellah, Fusoya and Yang
erm.  Do I disrespect Palom/Porom HP enough to see them dying to Fire Skean?  Quite possibly, but still seems a stretch, since that's dying to average damage at best, and .40 PCHP is epic.  Yoshi would easily win this if Ramza is alive - Fire Skean + Summon = sweep the wimps - but that's a lot of nasty-yet-frail threats, and while Yoshi can KO 2 of them easily with Shadow & Elincia's ST, letting 2 live is pretty bad (Weak + poke is an Elincia kill, if nothing else, since she can't counter magic except with a friggin' Wind Edge.)  Or just plain MT status.
Team Yoshiken vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis
I'll look into this fight more if I think there's a strat I overlooked that saves Ramza's life on battle 3 (which then saves someone else's life on b4), but I don't think a 3v6 is going to go well.  Shadow quite possibly solos this fight *IF* the status nonsense can be taken down fast, but he needs some support for that.

[ThePiggyman]

Hmm, F4 definitely got an upgrade.  The mobs are out in force.  Also as noted last week, I see Hastega / Slowga as F5 for Tidus, not F4.  (But if you see it as F4, Yoshi's in excellent shape, open with one of those all the time while huffing Ethers.)

Team Yoshiken | Shadow, Ramza, Tidus, Elincia, Moulder (Vantage)
[Ramza: Summoner, Item, Counter Magic, Move HP-Up]
[Floor 4a: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Yoshiken vs. Ramus, Luna, Laike and Tempest
Scrubs.
Team Yoshiken vs. Kyra, Hahn and Demi
Uhh...  don't know PS4 that well, so going to ignore macro/combo stuff here.  Tandle & Phenominzier sound like they don't trigger Counter Magic since they don't use TP, and they're MT, so they don't really trigger counters at all (unless Shadow's Interceptor gets MT stuff which we never really determined).  And there's a shameful lack of MT healing here, so Hahn can just finish the sweep with his own MT if all three live to take turns, and just Kyra & Demi are probably enough to zot Tidus at least, and quite possibly Ramza as well (Summoner HP, he has high Faith).

Anyway.  Shadow throws a Fire Skean.  Tidus Delay Busters one of Kyra/Demi.  The PS4 char who didn't unleashes MT.  Ramza probably tries to sneak Moogle in with the time granted by Delay Buster for some meh MT healing to not die.  Elincia doubles & kills Hahn.  Moulder throws some more healing around (Tidus, prolly).  THe Buster'd PS4 character unleashes MT.  Shadow throws another Skean, and now they're all weak enough to be plinked at and killed with Tidus physicals and the like.  Leave one alive to heal up.

Just a small note, if you see Tidus as having Delay Buster by F4, he most certainly has Slowga by F4, too, as Slowga comes before Delay Buster (although Delay Attack is still readily available regardless). For what it's worth, I agree that Hastega is probably F5, but Slowga should definitely be available by now.

[SnowFire]

Ah, good point.  Delay Attack, then.

I don't know - Elf or other FFX experts want to chime in if Slowga is F4?  Can't tell from eyeballing the Sphere Grid, looks borderlineish.  (If so, it *massively* helps Yoshi here.)

[Random Consonant]

Slowga is certainly F4, I got it a bit before the Al-Bhed Desert, so it's certainly within that timeframe.

[SnowFire]

I see.  That does help...

...but on the downside, looking at the FFT stat topic...  endgame Summoner's base speed is 7, which is only fixed somewhat thanks to Thief Hat existing, so I think I overestimated Ramza's speed before.  It's F4, so Summoner will be stuck with Flash Hat here.  The unequipped stat average of the uniques is 8.45, and the unequipped average of generics isn't that much different IIRC...  so yeah, Summoner is at best average speed w/ a Flash Hat, probably a tad worse.  And then has to actually cast Golem as well, which while quick casting, may not be quick enough, even with Slowga in play.  Still not sure Ramza can resolve that before Team Star Ocean murders him.  (and that means that Shadow + Tidus aren't KOing someone, as well.)

Maybe more math later.

[ThePiggyman]

I see.  That does help...

...but on the downside, looking at the FFT stat topic...  endgame Summoner's base speed is 7, which is only fixed somewhat thanks to Thief Hat existing, so I think I overestimated Ramza's speed before.  It's F4, so Summoner will be stuck with Flash Hat here.  The unequipped stat average of the uniques is 8.45, and the unequipped average of generics isn't that much different IIRC...  so yeah, Summoner is at best average speed w/ a Flash Hat, probably a tad worse.  And then has to actually cast Golem as well, which while quick casting, may not be quick enough, even with Slowga in play.  Still not sure Ramza can resolve that before Team Star Ocean murders him.  (and that means that Shadow + Tidus aren't KOing someone, as well.)

Maybe more math later.

Flash Hats are only available in Chapter 4. I'd definitely say no to Flash Hats on Floor 4.

[SnowFire]

Huh, forgot Flash Hats were that late.  Even with Slowga, no-hat Ramza is enough of a slug that I can't see him surviving the onslaught, well, without Auto-Potion.  I'm not sure Slowga helps the final FFT fight enough - there's still simply the problem that Yoshi can only drop people so fast, and so some status will resolve, and it will be bad.

[Dhyerwolf]

Most of the FFT team can block Slow too  (and there isn't really any competing status for them to need blockers for). Also of note is that Slowga is great for longer matches, but Tidus is only a bit above average speed turn 1. So may not help with the SO fight either.

[SnowFire]

Sure is quiet here...  surprised there aren't more votes.  Maybe this'll inspire some.

Team Jo'ou's Fancy Princesses and Yuri | Yuri1, Mei-ling, Hilda(Speed?) and Garnet
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Jo'ou vs. Big Joe, Evil Gaia, 10 Jogurts, VP1 Hrist, Euram Barrows, Gobi, DQ1 Slime, Garland and Igglanova (PS4)

Slaughter.  Yuri runs off to face Evil Gaia, he's like some Malice-fueled Final Boss.  DQ1 Slime is naturally strong against Princesses, they're worried about it getting in their hair or something, and Garnet can't concentrate.  Hrist is a natural leader and she has 10 Jogurts to command, cutting off all avenues of escape.  Euram & Gobi have merchant connections to get Garland a new sword, which knocks down Hilda in the middle of her transformation sequence.  The Xanafalgues are all huge fans of Big Joe and throw stuff at Mei-Ling from the sidelines after she dares attack him.  By the time Yuri gets back from cleaning up the mess with Gaia, the castle's been redecorated and Euram has married Garnet after winning a duel for her hand or something.  Rough.