Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 112

[Nephrite]

"Ah, how unfortunate. I suppose you those of you who have fallen from such high ground will just have to try again..."


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.
**Characters that join after the start are locked into the relative stats they have at that time until they would officially join.

Team Snowfire | Elincia, Yuna (MT), Arnaud, Stocke, Hawk
[Hawk: Ninja]
[Floor 4b: Buff Enough]
*On this floor, all buffs have their effects increased by 50%, debuffs by 25% and the first two rounds of both the enemy and player teams must be either buffs, debuffs or healing.
Team Snowfire vs. Alakazam, Mr. Mime and Charizard
Team Snowfire vs. Demi and Raja
Team Snowfire vs. Yuna, Auron and FFT Time Mage
Team Snowfire vs. Arnaud, Yulie, Lilka and Emma (AC:F)
Team Snowfire vs. Adachi, Alexia (XF) and Alma

Team Jo'ou's Fancy Princesses and Yuri | Yuri1, Mei-ling, Hilda(Speed?) and Garnet
[Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)]
Team Jo'ou vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Jo'ou vs. Jack, Cecilia and Rudy(WA:ACF)
Team Jo'ou vs. Colm, Jaffar, Rennac and Matthew
Team Jo'ou vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5)
Team Jo'ou vs. Boss Zed and Boomerang 2 (ACF)

Team Piggyman | Ramza, Aika, Shadow (MT), Sharanda, Bowser
[Ramza: Chemist]
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Piggyman vs. Big Joe, Evil Gaia, 10 Jogurts, VP1 Hrist, Euram Barrows, Gobi, A DQ1 Slime, Garland and Igglanova (PS4)
Team Piggyman vs. Cecil, Kain and Rosa
Team Piggyman vs. Augus and MC Tusk (BoF2)

Glen | Souji, Virginia, Mew (Neo Speed), Ditto
Souji's Personas
[Virginia: Terra Roar, Fiery Rage, Aqua Wisp]
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Glen vs. Big Joe, Evil Gaia, 10 Jogurts, VP1 Hrist, Euram Barrows, Gobi, A DQ1 Slime, Garland and Igglanova (PS4)
Team Glen vs. Cecil, Kain and Rosa
Team Glen vs. Augus and MC Tusk (BoF2)


Multitarget - One person on the team's actions all become Multitargetted. However, the damage of regular attacks, the healing of all spells that restore HP or MP, the status rates of status spells or attacks and the effect of buffs or debuffs (rounded down to the nearest half point in the case of Pokemon) is reduced by 33%. (Deadly Fingertips has a 67% chance of inflicting ID for example) Moves that were originally MT are not affected by this. This sealstone may be moved. In the case of revival, this affects the amount of HP restored, not the chance of revival occuring. Moves that have two types of effects (healing + buffing) are both decreased.

Speed? - The effective speed of one character is set to 120% (1.2x) average speed.

[Dhyerwolf]

Nephrite, for Souji's Personas, are the ones listed at particular point assumed to have learn all their spells. Because floor 1 ends at L13 and lists Eligor's full skillset, but Eligor only has 3 of those techs are that point for example.

[Nephrite]

I would use your gut on things. I don't think it's fair to let him just start off with all the spells of all of the Personas, since that isn't very reflective of in-game.

[Dhyerwolf]

Glen | Souji, Virginia, Mew (Neo Speed), Ditto
Souji's Personas
[Virginia: Terra Roar, Fiery Rage, Aqua Wisp]
Souji- Uhh...so, Souji ends F1 at L13, so no MT at least the first twice rounds (I THINK). The earlier in the game, the more Souji's persona have a slight level lag issue too. I'm gutting this as a variety of average ST damage with some elemental resistance with maybe MT Ice at the third fight
Virginia- Especially weird floor 1 in that she probably needs to wait a turn to start casting spells due to FP.
Mew- No spells picked up makes me think...has sub-average physical damage, less physical damage+speed down, Flash and...more Transform?
Ditto- To round out everyone on this team being a nightmare to vote on

[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Glen vs. Big Joe, Evil Gaia, 10 Jogurts, VP1 Hrist, Euram Barrows, Gobi, A DQ1 Slime, Garland and Igglanova (PS4)
Team Glen vs. Cecil, Kain and Rosa
Team Glen vs. Augus and MC Tusk (BoF2)- MC Tusk has 2.6 PC HP, but takes double to Fire. He has 35% MT NE magic or 56% ST physical. Augus has 2.5 PC HP, takes 33% extra from physicals (which I realize is likely factored into his HP already) and 75% ST physical damage on turn 1, or 37% ST turn 1, 89% extra turn afterward with a big finisher. So these people are generally picking apart 1 PC a round until MC Tusk

Souji can do .8 to MC Tusk, Virginia can add .1 turn 1, Ditto can Transform into Souji, and Mew does 0.3 physical damage??. MC Tusk uses MT damage. Augus kills...anyone (Souji is listed as having physical resistance, but this Persona also has Resist Physical. I don't know if the physical resistance is separate, but Souji wants that Fire damage anyways I guess). Uh...gut reaction is bad prognosis for this team. Three customizable characters who all take time to get going and a character who loses his first turn. The previous floor 1 would have been a slaughter.

[SnowFire]

Right.  Buff Enough is one of those really, really swingy floors because both buffs & debuffs are totally godly and the right one unanswered is "oops you lose."  Notably, Arnaud is really good.  It's just the first two actions of each character that are buffs/debuffs/healing/pass; Slow Down is like 27% speed or so with the improvement, so good luck even taking your 2nd turn if that's unanswered while my team quadraturns into attacks.  He also has Illusion, which from what chat said basically is a 0% hit rate with the floor bonus even against accuracy buffing, and Dispel (Which I'd consider not legal on the first two turns, but is potentially helpful on turn 3).

Hawk has his Jutsus (see last week for explanations) which are helpful for damage hosing, though they won't actually do any damage (Neph said that such debuffs were legal to use, for reference, just they'd do 0 damage), and Yuna has Protect / Shell for even more damage hosing.  (And NulX and healing I guess.)  Stocke *might* have Head Crush, I'd have to check RH levels, which is damage (nulled) + Magic down, but won't be hyping that much.  Stocke & Elincia are more likely to just be healbots on the first two turns.

Team Snowfire | Elincia, Yuna (MT), Arnaud, Stocke, Hawk
[Hawk: Ninja]
[Floor 4b: Buff Enough]
*On this floor, all buffs have their effects increased by 50%, debuffs by 25% and the first two rounds of both the enemy and player teams must be either buffs, debuffs or healing.
Team Snowfire vs. Alakazam, Mr. Mime and Charizard
No answer to Slow Down I believe, their buffs are stuff like Reflect which don't matter.
Team Snowfire vs. Demi and Raja
No answer to Slow Down.
Team Snowfire vs. Yuna, Auron and FFT Time Mage
This team does have an answer to Slow Down, in Time Mage!  ... unfortunately they absolutely can't kill me ever.  Illusion Auron, Fire Jutsu Time Mage & Yuna, throw up MT Shell.  Yeah no, their magic damage is like quartered.  Arnaud switches to spamming Slow Down at Time Mage to get rid of his Haste and tank his speed super-badly, Hawk throws in Thunder Jutsu if Yuna cast Protect on Time Mage, murder Time Mage with either Elincia or some combination of others, then Slow Down Yuna after she revives him.
Team Snowfire vs. Arnaud, Yulie, Lilka and Emma (AC:F)
This is the toughest fight on the floor.  Yulie has Quicken which dispels Slow Down, Emma's Great Booster is pretty cool, EvilArnaud is good for reasons already established; only Lilka is really uninspiring (oh boy TB speed buff that doesn't take effect this turn).

Anyway, math time.  EvilArnaud wants to Slow GoodArnaud most likely.  GoodArnaud can move, but that's just trading turns and he might go first anyway, so Slowing Yulie is more important to delay her (buff'd!) Quicken.  Using the stat topic speeds (114% Arnaud, 90% Yulie) Arnaud's turn happens after 88 ticks.  Yulie is then slowed to 24.8% average speed.  88*.9 + x*.248 = 100, solve for x to get 84 more ticks before Yulie takes her first turn after a total of 88+84 = 172 ticks (almost turn 2 for average!).  BUT she'll then cast Quicken, which, with Floor buff in place, makes her 283% average speed.  If Lilka cast Quicken on YUlie rather than herself, it might even be a bit faster if that's seen as stacking.  (A swingy floor indeed!)  Assuming no interference (maybe Hawk's 2nd turn is one of his Slow effects like Shurikens or Earth Jutsu?), Lilka gets her next turn in 35 ticks, or 207 ticks total after the start.  Anyway Lilka will want to drop Quicken on Emma next to try and have Emma take that all-important third turn sooner, and then Emma can try some MT status, or MT HP-1.  Not great accuracy, but with 5 targets, things can go wrong quickly.  (And Emma's really the only offense the team's got; Yuna threw up MT SHell & Protect as usual.)  However, since it's already average speed turn 2 when Lilka drops the Quicken, while Emma surely does go first for the third action (she's probably tossed Great Booster around earlier to help some), I don't think she'll double-turn me except for Evil Arnaud's Slow Down targets (Good Arnaud, etc.).  So I'll have time to toss Restore staves around or Stocke's status healing or the like.  Also, since damage isn't a threat, Hawk will have been tossing his own strange Slow effect around, notably vs. EvilArnaud, to try and keep things from getting more out of control.  Yuna's got MT Esuna & MT Dispel, though at 67% accuracy, but it's still pretty darn handy for letting things not get too out of control.  After that, all effort goes to murdering Yulie & Lilka, which should still be doable, since the defensive buffing for the enemy team is not real inspiring.  Needless to say, Stocke blows a Turn Break built up from the earlier fights as soon as he hits his third turn here to help push through.  Another weird thing to consider: Stocke can arguably use Push/Left/Right Assault to knock enemy characters out of Quicken hexes.

Anyway this fight is scary as hell, as the worst case is Yulie / Arnaud go nuts and their team is all Quicken'd and my team is all Slow Down'd and I'm not getting good Arnaud the turns he needs for Dispel / his own Slow Downs.  I'm going to kneejerk a pass anyway out of general Emma disrespect + inability of the rest of the team to threaten offensively, but I can totally see voting a fail on this fight, it's rough and Emma alone can screw me up if the turnsplit is bad enough + my own offense stops being able to threaten past the healing.

Team Snowfire vs. Adachi, Alexia (XF) and Alma
I thought I was doomed for sure in this fight until Pyro/Tal pointed out Illusion.  Adachi has the insane Atom Smasher attack which deals either 2 PCHP or 4 PCHP MT attack (randomly for each char if it's 2 or 4) that can happen fairly fast off Heat Riser / Power Charge / Royal Cheer / MBarrier for the Haste.  However, Illusion exists, and even if it was legal for Adachi to move out of it, he can't legally do so anyway on his first two turns, meaning Adachi is just a weak mage since all his physicals can't hit even with Heat Riser's accuracy boost.  MT Shell + Fire Jutsu = lol, so yeah, they can't actually come close to killing me.

[SnowFire]

Piggyman passes, he has a number of characters who start strong (Ramza, Sharanda, Bowser?), and Aika can even do some Fire damage to MC Tusk.

I'm not sure I know Souji well enough to vote, but I certainly scale MC Tusk's HP, and also note Ryu2's dragon damage, so yeah he's like .80 PCHP or so.  .1 PCHP to Virginia's revolver shot also seems a bit harsh; Virginia's damage is awful, yes, but in a 4 person cast there's only so bad it can get.  Even .2 PCHP helps finish the one-round KO on MC Tusk.  Even though Augus finishes off Souji afterward, Ditto should be in play then, and think that the team has a decent chance of then blitzing out Augus?  I'll let others analyze it more, though.

[Dhyerwolf]

Right, Ryu's Dragon damage helps. But...0.8 PC HP? Even if you fully factor in the Fire weakness (which I don't have a problem with. I waffle on that point myself. If you factor it in 100% though, you shouldn't see Fire damage doing extra to him) and assume you don't use Rand (worst damage dealer), he still doesn't fall to 3 turns to damage per the BoF 2 topic (takes 1437 over 3 turns with 1520 HP). So looking at 1.25 with full weakness and best attacking party.  I'd also be surprised that if he was seen at 0.8 PC HP and Neph didn't sub him out.

I gut checked Virginia. Could be 0.2, but she's also held against herself in a 3 turn average (1 attack, 2 spells).

[Dark Holy Elf]

What? Rand's damage isn't game-worst at that point or even close... Jean and Bow both definitely have less (Jean can't benefit from the fire shaman. Bow just has significantly less atk). The party used in the BoF2 stat thread is generally quite good on damage.

Of course I don't agree with factoring in fire weakness twice, so MC Tusk is 1.68 PCHP to me, which I believe would normally make him 1.47 by Snowfire's views? And then reduces physicals by 15% and magic by 7% on top of that.

[ThePiggyman]

Piggyman passes, he has a number of characters who start strong (Ramza, Sharanda, Bowser?), and Aika can even do some Fire damage to MC Tusk.

Sharanda also has fire damage w/ Burn Out, which is pretty solid damage this early on, since Additions are still comparatively weak early on. Shadow's damage probably isn't that great right now, because of the MT sealstone, but it'll do. Bowser's got MT damage, too, and FEAR status probably neuters the FF4 crew. Got two revivers and three healers, so I don't think I'll ever have to worry about being picked off. I'm pretty sure I pass.

Don't feel comfortable voting on the other 3, as I don't know half or more of their teams.

[Dhyerwolf]

What? Rand's damage isn't game-worst at that point or even close... Jean and Bow both definitely have less (Jean can't benefit from the fire shaman. Bow just has significantly less atk). The party used in the BoF2 stat thread is generally quite good on damage.

Of course I don't agree with factoring in fire weakness twice, so MC Tusk is 1.68 PCHP to me, which I believe would normally make him 1.47 by Snowfire's views? And then reduces physicals by 15% and magic by 7% on top of that.

I forgot 70% of BoF 2 after playing it. Now I have forgotten how many PCs you have in a party and who you have there. So yeah, overestimated the HP again! But MC Tusk still has enough to be to get off one MT attack.

[dude789]

I'd also argue that Mew's damage should never be below average. His move options on the first floor are kind of bad, but he's being compared to stuff like Budew and Wurmple. The stat advantage alone should put him above average with Pluck or something.

[Dhyerwolf]

Isn't Mew a very late joiner? Unless he's specfically being scaled differently, his stats are going to be relative to his join time.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Mew's worse than a late-joiner, he's a never-joiner. <_< Kinda surprised he's been used in the dungeon, but if you do use him, I'd probably scale his stats to endgame/competitive, the only place they're relevant.

[dude789]

Isn't Mew a very late joiner? Unless he's specfically being scaled differently, his stats are going to be relative to his join time.

Mew (like Alakazam) is an exception to the usual stat scaling because of his whole TM usage. If you were to scale him as he joined then he'd have access to every TM in the game immediately which seems overpowered. This seemed like the most intuitive and fair solution while still keeping him interesting. Even if you did scale him to his join time I'd say that his damage is pretty good because his stats are still above average and STAB Psychics should pump out decent damage.   

[Dhyerwolf]

Mew is already a nightmare. I can't even imagine needing to do all these scaling shenanigans.


Team Snowfire | Elincia, Yuna (MT), Arnaud, Stocke, Hawk
[Hawk: Ninja]
[Floor 4b: Buff Enough]
*On this floor, all buffs have their effects increased by 50%, debuffs by 25% and the first two rounds of both the enemy and player teams must be either buffs, debuffs or healing.
Team Snowfire vs. Alakazam, Mr. Mime and Charizard- Alakazam opens with 75% Phys Reduction, Charizard with Scary Face on Arnaud, and Mr. Mime with 75% Magic Reduction. Don't think it ends up mattering a lot though, but at least Charizard can fight Arnaud a little.
Team Snowfire vs. Demi and Raja- You should add up..Gryz or Hahn to this Neph. Raja is bad enough that otherwise this is just like asking if the team can solo Demi.
Team Snowfire vs. Yuna, Auron and FFT Time Mage
Team Snowfire vs. Arnaud, Yulie, Lilka and Emma (AC:F)- I think the enemies damage is too anemic here (helps a lot that I take WA 4 kill point at 26K).
Team Snowfire vs. Adachi, Alexia (XF) and Alma

Team Jo'ou's Fancy Princesses and Yuri | Yuri1, Mei-ling, Hilda(Speed?) and Garnet
Yuri- Scrpaing 2HKO magic damage off good speed, might have ID protection at the end of the floor, but not beginning with some MT healing
Mei-ling- 50% Healing (doubling as revival?), speedy with a bit above physical average damage (Other skills aren't really gained yet?) off tad below average general durability
Hilda- Right, don't know why I thought she had MT buffs or revival. Damage is probably decent. Entrance is cool of course. But...doesn't start with the ID attack
Garnet- Healing, Protect and Shell (Don't know if Mythril Rod kicks in yet, gut leans to no becuase I tend to gut that FF 9 divides up at 2 floors a disk. Not sure if anything else)

So only one reviver (?) means that enemies will be generally aiming at Mei-Ling

[Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)]
Team Jo'ou vs. Flay and Nikki- This fight is kind of worrisome. They can be a bit much for 5 person teams, and none of these guys are great at this fight (might be a few key midfloor pickups). Nikki has the speed and unless Mei-Ling starts with the ID protection available, there is a 50% chance she won't even be acting this floor. They need all three attackers to eliminate either PC, but with the cavaet that Nikki may Block Mei-Ling attack. If they have luck with Nikki (no Blocking, no potential Quick, no ID hit), Flay can at least cause some damage that they may not get a chance to fully heal out of (but maybe they will)
Team Jo'ou vs. Jack, Cecilia and Rudy(WA:ACF)- If anyone is left at low HP, Jack is adept at picking them off.
Team Jo'ou vs. Colm, Jaffar, Rennac and Matthew- This fight honestly seems like it might be a bit much for this floor (if you have my level of FE evade respect). Colm has 68% Evade! Matthew 58%! I guess status works here okay, but this a match where the enemies are too good at piling on damage given their defensive attributes. Crits can end Mei-Ling here if she is still here
Team Jo'ou vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5)- If everyone is alive, Lorelai's durability is bad enough that she won't see a turn. It does leave the slower Killey open, so they have to be sure that everyone is healed up first.
Team Jo'ou vs. Boss Zed and Boomerang 2 (ACF)- They can team up a round to kill 1 person or Boomerang can null someone's turn. Yuri will obviously be wanted to run around with...oh, all the Wind/Thunder spells they have fall on the Wind side, I think. After the possible ID of the first match, the picking off in the second match, the evasion in the third match, and then this is hard to see the team as passing.

Team Piggyman | Ramza, Aika, Shadow (MT), Sharanda, Bowser- Passes

Other Floor 1 team fails.

[Yoshiken]

If nothing else, Mew has access to Hidden Power and Transform. Depending on how you take HP, it can have a solid choice of elemental damage (as long as multiple elements aren't needed) meaning it can get the Fire damage people are talking about. Failing that, Transform lets it follow along with Ditto's plan, only with a lot more speed because of the Sealstone.

[superaielman]

Can team Snowfire stop Yuna from summoning on turn 3?  I think that's his biggest concern on this floor.


Team Piggyman | Ramza, Aika, Shadow (MT), Sharanda, Bowser
[Ramza: Chemist]
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Piggyman vs. Big Joe, Evil Gaia, 10 Jogurts, VP1 Hrist, Euram Barrows, Gobi, A DQ1 Slime, Garland and Igglanova (PS4)- MT Shadow.
Team Piggyman vs. Cecil, Kain and Rosa- - I remember Bowser being very competent at first. Full team blitz should take down Rosa before she goes- Even it doesn't, Ramza has some status curing and revival.
Team Piggyman vs. Augus and MC Tusk (BoF2)- Tough fight. Sharanda's item usage damage should be quite good at this point.  August and Tusk are going to focus on knocking Ramza out early. That gives the rest of the team time to unload.

I like the redesigned floor 1 Neph, had to think on the boss.

Glen | Souji, Virginia, Mew (Neo Speed), Ditto
Souji's Personas
[Virginia: Terra Roar, Fiery Rage, Aqua Wisp]
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Glen vs. Big Joe, Evil Gaia, 10 Jogurts, VP1 Hrist, Euram Barrows, Gobi, A DQ1 Slime, Garland and Igglanova (PS4)[/b]-- Mmm. Garland almost has offense, not enough to actually threaten the team though.
Team Glen vs. Cecil, Kain and Rosa- Think it's manageable. Rosa's status is dangerous but ST only, she is not going to survive two turns. Ditto provides an extra reviver on the off chance they need it.
Team Glen vs. Augus and MC Tusk (BoF2)- Mmm, think so. Souji's using Obariyon on this floor for the physcial resist. ditto will copy him, Mew will copy Virginia. Double healing and double physical tanks should be enough to deal with the fight.


Snow's team fails. As Dhyer noted, they have a 50/50 shot of losing their only reviver at the start of the dungeon. That's not good. That is an instant loss. The FE fight is trouble as well, it's good at picking off revivers.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Glen vs. Augus and MC Tusk (BoF2)- Mmm, think so. Souji's using Obariyon on this floor for the physcial resist. ditto will copy him, Mew will copy Virginia. Double healing and double physical tanks should be enough to deal with the fight.

Double healing? You mean...WA 3 Heal? ST healing that is not good (and based off FP, no, so even if the natural proportions are better early, shit starting FP keeps it down) and they are losing hitting the Fire weakness (meaning multiple turns of the 35% MT PC HP likely. And doing damage to HP if they want to do max damage on Persona without many magic skills).

[SnowFire]

Okay, yeah, I forgot that the fire weakness was already baked in to the damages to some extent, MC Tusk is a bit more durable than kneejerked.

Can team Snowfire stop Yuna from summoning on turn 3?  I think that's his biggest concern on this floor.

Whenever enemy Yuna has been in the Dungeon, it's always been Aeonless Yuna unless explicitly noted (and the only time I can think it wasn't was like Floor 9 wherein the entire fight was the Aeon Parade -> Yuna), so that's what I assumed.  Neph, please correct me if that's wrong.

[Nephrite]

You are not facing Yuna with Aeons.