Shift Tourney: Week 1

[Cmdr_King]

I just don't see Lucina evading magic, so Clarissa only needs her 75% Rob Turn check in order to win.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'll grant the fight is kinda academic, though: I doubt either Lucina or Clarissa can eke past Altima (though Lucina makes a better fight for her than Clarissa).

[Dhyerwolf]

I just don't see Lucina evading magic, so Clarissa only needs her 75% Rob Turn check in order to win.

Did FE 13 change so that magic evade and evade are separate?

[Cmdr_King]

No.  FE magic just checks PEvade.

[Dhyerwolf]

Considering how critical FE evade is for durability and that it's so comprehensive, that feels like it's cutting off a super large gameplay aspect and advantage. Does FF 6 not evade physicals for you?

[SnowFire]

Ciato / Elf: That works, sure.

I just don't see Lucina evading magic, so Clarissa only needs her 75% Rob Turn check in order to win.

Well, not quite.  Clarissa also needs to not die on the Javelin counter (or for her attack to be seen as uncounterable - maybe plausible for Howling Shot because its super range makes it kind of like Bolting / Mire, but not Sacrifice really.  And HS also has the "can't move far away then use HS" issue.).  This is a lot more plausible, of course, I was surprised when checking that 2x Javelin kills post-Sacrifice Clarissa according to Elf's numbers, so all it would take is using Dhyer-style doubling damage averages or upping the FE13 damage average a tad - which might be reasonable considering that it doesn't include stuff like Aether, which thanks to Brave Sword would actually show up in a 3-turn damage average.  However, even if we assume that 2x (/ 1.94 x) Javelins don't kill Clarissa, there's still 2x (/1.94x?) Aether checks, and adding an Aether in *will* kill Clarissa surely.  So Clarissa's odds in the FE doesn't get MEvade scenario are .75 * .71 * .71 = ~38%.  So...  still troublesome.  (But a closer match for sure, I've certainly voted the 40% side of matches before on holistic or general awesomeness grounds.)

[Cmdr_King]

Considering how critical FE evade is for durability and that it's so comprehensive, that feels like it's cutting off a super large gameplay aspect and advantage. Does FF 6 not evade physicals for you?

Nah.  The part that's important to me is that FE doesn't differentiate magic and physicals at all in terms of how hit rate is calculated.  In FFVI, there's a clear difference in how magic and physicals check evade, they just check against the same stat.
Put another way, a sword that deals magic damage in Fire Emblem is absolutely not different from a tome.  Evade is reflective of ability to move out of the way of attacks.  And especially when up against a game like XF where there are two distinct sorts of evade and the ability to dodge magic is distinctly rarer than the ability to dodge physicals, it just didn't make sense to have FE characters shrug off magic like nothing.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Put another way, a sword that deals magic damage in Fire Emblem is absolutely not different from a tome.  Evade is reflective of ability to move out of the way of attacks.  And especially when up against a game like XF where there are two distinct sorts of evade and the ability to dodge magic is distinctly rarer than the ability to dodge physicals, it just didn't make sense to have FE characters shrug off magic like nothing.

That's not even really true in FE13, weapons that deal magical damage in FE13 don't get affected by Tomebreaker, but by their respective weapon breaker skill. You may see it as not enough, but a differentiation is there.

EDIT: Do you see Xenosaga evade also only affecting physical attacks, speaking of which?

[Cmdr_King]

*shrug* Swordbreaker doesn't effect axes or spears, they're still the same attack.

And yeah.  There's a few games like that, just Fire Emblem is the only one that really comes up.

[Reiska]

FFVI is kind of a bad example anyway since there's a licensed retail version of the game where evade works properly (and I'd definitely base any FF6 voting I did off that version).

Based on the arguments I've seen I'd swing Lucina myself, but it's not actually a votable match for me due to unplayed XF; I do agree it hinges pretty heavily on how much respect you give FE evade, which for me is a lot.

[SnowFire]

This closes tomorrow, last call for edits / new votes.

For myself, eh, keeping the abstain in Bea vs. Fogel.  For Xorn vs. Orphan, looks like Xorn has this in hand anyway...  I like the "Xorn's dispel screws with Orphan's damage-halving" argument from a holistic and stylistic standpoint, you CAN nail Orphan with horrific debuffs to up the damage against him, and Xorn's buff dispel functions similarly against the weaker G3 buffs...  but...  I have to say it's a shaky argument from a mechanical perspective.  FF13 Dispel exists, it doesn't get rid of Orphan's damage halving, and nothing in Grandia 3 stops Violetta's similar damage reduction.  I'll file that as a tiebreaker note.  That said, Monkeyfinger has a pretty solid point about Death Knell to chip around Orphan's limit, so yeah, going with the crowd on this one.  (Orphan at the highest durability respect might yet still take it, but eh.)

[MalcolmMasher]

Divinities

Dark Force (Phantasy Star series) vs. BossX (Saga Frontier) - Not feeling a ton of respect for BossX.

Demigods

Heroes

Crono (Chrono Trigger) vs. Gardevoir (Pokemon)
Tharja (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs. Guy (Fire Emblem) - I see both of them 3HKOing, and Tharja's third attack comes first. With significant accuracy issues, but she can afford to use accurate wind magic over Nosferatu here, plus she has Anathema always and Hex on her counter and finisher. I think that's enough.
White Rose (Saga Frontier) vs. Ivan (Golden Sun)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Xorn's Despair isn't merely a buff-dispeller (like e.g. FF Dispel or DQ8 Wave of Ice, neither of which I would hype in this situation), it also nullifies passive abilities, and I don't find it a terribly large stretch to view Orphan's damage reduction as such given that there is a way around them in-game (the bonus damage from Deprotect or Deshell is not reduced, in effect... it still adds 89% of the base damage before the reduction). I have no problem with anyone else viewing this differently since it is an ambiguous/undefined situation, just going with what feels right to me.

[SnowFire]

Results.

Xorn (Grandia III) vs. Orphan (Final Fantasy XIII) (X-2)
Dark Force (Phantasy Star series) vs. BossX (Saga Frontier) (5-3)
Fou-lu (Breath of Fire 4) vs. Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) (3-8)
Violetta (Grandia 3) vs. Arceus (Pokemon series)

--

Fei (Xenogears) vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)
Wren (Phantasy Star 4) vs. Luther Lansfeld (Star Ocean 3)
Fogel (Ogre Battle) vs. Beatrix (Final Fantasy 9) (5-3)
Zerase (Suikoden 5) vs. Sasarai (Suikoden 3) (4-7)

Lulu (Final Fantasy X) vs. KOS-MOS (Xenosaga)
Galcian (Skies of Arcadia) vs. Hildagarde Valentine (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) (2-5)
Clarissa Arwin (Wild Arms XF) vs. Lucina (Fire Emblem: Awakening) (3-3, hatbot tiebreak)
[23:12] <+SnowFire> Hatbot: Hope will never die, or all hope will perish with this bloody sacrifice?
[23:12] <+Hatbot> I'd go with Hope will never die, SnowFire.
Altima (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. Pamela Ibis (Mana Khemia)

--

Sonya Shulen (Suikoden) vs. Adachi (Persona 4) (2-5)
Veronica Vera (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) vs. Max (Shining Force)
Crono (Chrono Trigger) vs. Gardevoir (Pokemon)
Grunzford (Soul Nomad) vs. Lilka (Wild Arms 2) (3-4)

Yuiri (Suikoden 3) vs. Nina (Breath of Fire 1)
Tharja (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs. Guy (Fire Emblem) (2-4, buncha abstrains)
Lexis (Lufia 2) vs. Momo (Breath of Fire 3)
White Rose (Saga Frontier) vs. Ivan (Golden Sun) (2-5)