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Author Topic: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition  (Read 3307 times)

Cmdr_King

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Godlike

Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III)
Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)

Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX)
Tana (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Vyse (Skies of Arcadia)
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)
Ox (Breath of Fire) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)
Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile)

Light

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII)
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III)

Week 1 will be open for an hour or two more on the really off chance someone hasn't voted but looked in this topic.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Godlike

Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World): Tirawa's skills wreck the slow, non-dispelling Sa-Lews something fierce. Welcome to Godlike.
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III): Thinking. This is good offhand.
Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars): Smashy smashy. Even no-crystals Culex may OHKO with Dark Star, pretty sure I allow crystals though, they are an in-battle summon and all.


Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2): Faster, better status whore anyway.
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX): Freeze. The way I scale temps doesn't make Beatrix super-insane like she is to some.
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue): Strong gutcheck for a OHKO here, since I definitely factor in Lucia to the damage averages to some extent.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword): WTD makes this worth thinking about probably, but pretty sure Stocke still manages.
Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals): Surely.
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile): Evade and counters and all that. Lances makes the evade less potent certainly, but still enough.

Light

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics): Well this is horribly unclose.
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII): Same here.
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III): SNOOOWWWWWWW!

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SnowFire

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Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III)
MT: Xorn doesn't have it.  (Except his rando-targeting physical, which kicks his own ass.)
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)

Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX)
Beatrix another one of those duelers who spent most of her time in Godlike and probably a mistake for this division!  Even if you disallow PC Beatrix boss beatrix spoils here, should easily heal-lock Nel and her status is worthless.
Tana (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Vyse (Skies of Arcadia)
Counterstance->Cutlass Fury.  Tana's chance of killing through Counterstance is like nil and Skies spirit moves are ITE.  Cutlass Fury might well OHKO anyway, but if it doesn't, Vyse can get some regular attack counters in, and who cares if some miss.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)
100% Negal HP / Res respect check, as Stocke either kills with his opening doubled G-Fire or loses.  G-Fire is like 0.45-0.50 damage depending on how you count, but Nergal's RES is 30 which is insane and he has MTA.  Leaning Stocke but will defer to the experts on this.
Ox (Breath of Fire) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)
What a fail-off.  I was all set to vote for Ox because Raine's resources are not really THAT good, and Ox can randomly critical to make Raine's when-to-heal math harder, and Raine's spells are sloooow, but looking up the stat topic I see that Ox has a mighty THREE shots of healing, and it isn't even full, and his HP isn't as good as I was expecting.  WTF.  He still has an argument but it mostly involves punishing Raine even harder on speed, or using the fact that Raine is god-awful in the arena without that skill that makes you not get stun-locked for spellcasting.
Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Two hits from Dekar according to the stat topic do 1.26 PCHP.  Anise has 1.09 PCHP, but also regens 8% (per round, I guess?), so by Dekar's second turn she has at least 1.17 PCHP (if Dekar's speed is seen as perfectly average), more if you see Dekar as slower.  Meanwhile Anise's 3HKO is shaky at best, not mathing it out but requires incorporating Dekar's bad MDef if it happens at all.  I suppose this is a grudging Dekar vote since Anise needs to basically make a survival check while Dekar needs to fail his for her to win.
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile)

Light

Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III)
I'd personally have a strong inclination to ignore the rules on Wheel of Memory and just fix Cathedral in the appropriate form based on the dueler, but he's in Light, so sure White Robe spam.  White Robe, the form with the highest VIT for tankiness and usual insane XS2 boss HP.  That has instant death that fires off in 3 rounds.  Can Melville 2HKO like 4x PCHP with good defense?  Hahahaha.  Okay, let's ban the ID, maybe it's a limit or something.  Well, I'm pretty liberal with S3 Yellow Scarves, so fine they block Stun, but I wouldn't see them getting stat debuffs.  So White Robe keeps plinking Heart Rending Despair until H-Ether DD sticks, and the heavy versions of the status last forever unless healed, and that'll be double damage on Cathedral's (horrible) damage.  Which is still enough because Melville has real problems dealing with even a OPB shot of 50% healing, and I'd probably let Cathedral use it again after enough turns have passed, which they might.  So yeah, even with every single conceivable call against Cathedral, this is pretty much mech stompy time.

Dark Holy Elf

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Xorn does have MT (Darkness), but it's a 75% HP limit which is problematic. He has GT at full HP (Thunderclap) but not sure how many targets I would see that hitting. FE10 lacking -any- MT for you to throw at Ashera makes me take a fairly dim view of GT on average here... I guess three targets would be the logical number, if we assume it's a cross-shape centred around a legal target.

Nergal's 30 Res sounds high but bear in mind you just got five new tomes which vastly change your magic damage output compared to the stat topic, so in fact it's significantly lower than that of some previous bosses (Ursula, Sonia, Limstella) even before accounting for any PC level differences. Obviously milage may vary hugely with how you scale Nergal's HP and I have no issue with votes either way here despite my own kneejerk, but yeah just noting that the res isn't anything extraordinary.

One additional interp call which I would seriously consider making against Cathedral is mocking the death sentence move. While it's not a limit (to my knowledge), in-game you can cancel it by switching PCs, which is an action always available, so the move is a complete joke. I guess I'd let Cathedral's opponents lift the status for the cost of a turn, which makes it still worth using because Cathedral is above average speed and therefore the action economy favours it (though this is useless against fast opponents)... which is a problem Melville really doesn't need here. Although, hmm. Melville is 107% speed to me, Cathedral is... *calcs* 110%, assuming Swimsuits on non-Jin, which isn't much of a split to exploit with death sentence. Of course this raises Cathedral's damage slightly! So it's now 15HKO to average, 12-13HKO to Melville. Which seeing as that's about where Melville is in this fight (generously) before any healing hype, means he loses this.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 08:25:44 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Random Consonant

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Godlike

Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) - Yeah stripmonixer nonsense is kind of a thing here.
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III) - Gut.  Xorn doesn't really have true MT but he does have AoE (okay Darkness could be MT), which unless I'm mistaken should mean he doesn't get pinged back by Aurora nonsense.  I think he gets enough time to bring down the auras and turn Ashera into fine paste if so, Xorn speed is kind of nuts.

Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2) - lol
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue) - hm.  Rune can get about ~0.75 pdur if he twinks for defense, do I see Hiro OHKOing that?  Will need to check.  Edit: yeah I think I do

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - I certainly don't see Nergal surviving here.
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile) - wait I'm overthinking this, he can take one hit if he needs to and generally has this

Light

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Well this is horribly unclose.
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII) - As is this.
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) - on the other hand this is just pathetic.  no.
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III) - Yeah y'all have fun with this now ya hear
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 08:52:36 AM by Random Consonant »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) - Shania eats most PS4 bosses for breakfast.
Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) - He doesn't even need the crystals. lol ohko
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka Palazzo (Final Fantasy VI) - Rashidi at best gets a single swipe in, and no back row scaling saves him from a OHKO.

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2) - Amphibian vampires.
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX) - Boss Beatrix can blow me behind a 7-11. Even assuming I allowed that, she'd autolose to Nel outside of a OHKO (which I'm not really hot on seeing here) because boss Beatrix fights are fucking timed battles and you win them by stalling until the end of time. PC Beatrix... yeah, no. I'm just content with the idea of booting Beatrix forever, she's more of a headache than Laike.
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue) - EBO Hiro doesn't OHKO Rune! He just IDs instead.

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - :nergal:
Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) - I don't think Dekar even -needs- his IP game to win here.
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile) - yeah sure

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics) - uhhhhh nope.
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII) - NOPE.
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) - If nothing else, counters, buffs and Vitali's pseudo-parasitic healing game once he loses some Stamina work, I guess? Vitali damage is terrible, but wow, Cid's offense+speed combo is trash.
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III) - Yeah, surely. Cathedral fears healers more than anything, but he can deal okay with pure sluggers in the dregs of Light. Tangentially, I spit fire at the idea of allowing Cathedral to freely swap forms based on opponents when this is something he CAN NOT DO in-game. One of the reasons Cathedral is a trashy boss is precisely how easy it is to game his form-swapping and it boggles my mind to take an interp that lets him circumvent that problem just because sure why not.

EDIT:

Quote from: Elfboys
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III): SNOOOWWWWWWW!

JE NE REGRETTE RIEN
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 02:06:08 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

superaielman

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Godlike

Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)- I remember Culex having really nasty offense.
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)- Kefka's speed and offense are pretty grossly overrated (He's average at best turn 1 and no to any scaling that doesn't hold him against back row), but he is enough above PC to me to survive a round of Rashidi blitzing.

Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX)- Guess so.
Tana (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Vyse (Skies of Arcadia)- ITE high grade physicals make Tana ;_;.
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)- Kneejerk.  If Rune makes the survival check and tanks a triple sword, he could also miss on Negatis.

Middle

Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals)- This is almost close without IPs. With it, haha.
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile)

Light

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics)- See below. Mallow sucks against Dark Knights.
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII)
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)- Cid's offense is terrible.
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III)- DEATH TO SNOW

A dark presence stains our fine DL light season. A foul tool of the church has come to oppress the people. CATHEDRAL seeks to dominate the people of Light.  The heroic but slight Melville is no match for such darkness. There is only one man in Light who can match this profane being. A man who stood against his own corrupt church. A man who gave up friendship for duty. A man who denied the very darkness of the grave for a chance to right perceived wrongs and live up to his ideals. He has returned with mastery over normal Knight skills and Dark Knight skills; he returns with the power to take down magery in all forms. Vote the man who has the tools to stop this rampage. Vote the hero the DL deserves. Vote for the Death  Knight (Argath).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:18:02 PM by superaielman »
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Dhyerwolf

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Godlike

Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III)- Thunderclap probably isn't even taking out the support orbs in a hit, so he can start aiming at Ashera herself turn 3 maybe. And yet, this is still close
Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)

Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX)- OHKO
Tana (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Vyse (Skies of Arcadia)- Uh, well, Skull Shield does help Vyse stay alive longer while chipping Tana so the 7 SP move kills. But that won't hit turn 1 to me, so it doesn't help him enough
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- Can he really be this sad to flounder against the type of match he should win in Middle?
Ox (Breath of Fire) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)- Sure
Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile)


Light

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)- Vitali is faster, has better damage, no type weakness
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III)
...into the nightfall.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- Can he really be this sad to flounder against the type of match he should win in Middle?

Being as easy to double as he is and having a case for always going last, Nergal -really- is pretty bad. Given the HP and how easy it is to mitigate his defensive stats (S Rank weapons flying around, supports, goddamn Nils), anyone with average damage who can survive a single Ereshkigal thwack and has even Tin Man-level speed stomps him down. This is -not- a hard combo to manage. If you're harsher on counters (which you are), he gets -even worse-. Hell, I'd argue Nergal is a borderline Light with your counter interps.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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For what it's worth I don't see Stocke killing him by that much. You do need to at least have decent damage to beat him typically (or spoil dark/magic in some way) since otherwise he will counter you and kill you on his own turn. Can't heal through this either. He beats the likes of Blanca pretty easily, for instance. (At least by my counter views. As Snow notes, there are other counter views which might make him quite bad.)

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SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 10:40:18 PM »
Elf: Go edit that into Xorn's entry in the G3 topic, then!  ...but yeah, Darkness doesn't OHKO the Auras anyway, and I'm not sure it's close enough to overcome the regeneration, so that leaves Death Knell's GT.  Not happening in time.

Re Nergal, yeah, that was a result of a quick glance at the stat topic saying "See stats above!"  Average cast damage of 21 vs. 10 RES.  Nergal has 30 RES.  Okay, so immune to stuff that isn't Forblaze / Aureola / etc. ???

Jo'ou: I did say *inclination*.  It's the same issue as Dario, we usually let bosses have perfect AI in the DL, how much does it mean if the AI is "cheesable" in-game by forcing the boss into doing what you want if you know what you're doing?  Yes, Cathedral can be controlled by the human player into doing whatever you want, but bosses with rigidly fixed scripts are "already" controlled to do something, and that is exploitable by a human player too (see: P3 / P4 superbosses like Margaret, where you look up the attack order and switch personas who resist the next attack & defend with characters who'd have their weakness hit).  I'm certainly not on board with forcing Kefka to uselessly open with Fallen One vs. bosses.  The point is, this kind of "figure out what the acceptable AI translation from in-game to DL" is an art, not a science.  If it makes you feel any better, I probably do grudgingly hold Cathedral to enforcing the rules on Wheel of Memory, but if there's any kind of tiebreak needed where a looser interp of Cathedral's AI would allow it to win, that would be fine.  (Note that just as holistically Cathedral's AI is something it gets punished for too heavily - I certainly had no clue that White Robe was so bad at killing - Cathedral's ID is something that holistically sucks in-game, but is badass in the DL where there's no party members to switch with!  Blah.  The holistic Cathedral loses the ID but gains not being stuck in White Robe, the strict version has BS ID and not much else.)

As an additional complication for Wheel of Memory...  okay, in XS2 this can never happen so there's strong reason to holistically kneejerk against, but Melville is from a turn-based game where there's a lag between entering commands & executing them.  Usually this isn't woth caring about in the DL, but sometimes it comes up, most notably Pokemon with Protect where you have to enforce that kind of mind-games rules (Protect vs. someone with a single big shot of damage doesn't work if the other dueler "knows" Protect is coming!).  Anyway, Cathedral can threaten to make Melville waste some turns whenever their turn order is close enough; if there's a Melville inputs command -> Cathedral -> Melville executes command sequence, Melville has to consider that Cathedral might use Wheel of Memory, and thus Melville will have to consider passing.  This gives Cathedral free turns to do damage if Melville is very conservative & Cathedral only uses Wheel of Memory rarely, or if Melville is aggressive he just wakes up Call to Arms.  I'm not sure I give this argument much credit, but it's something to consider.

Jo'ou, re Beatrix: So what that it's a timed fight?  That certainly isn't a reason to disqualify it (and I believe you can still Game Over the fight, it doesn't just continue if you die, at least for some of the fights).   Also, checking chat, it seems boss Beatrix does have a OHKO, and even if she doesn't, the dark spectre of FF9 boss speed hype might mean she doubles before the time limit is up anyway.  So yeah.

VySaika

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 11:06:15 PM »
Godlike

Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III)
Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI) - Sure, Kefka can take a Rashidi turn.

Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2) - frog or something
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX) - The timer aspect does make me toss out boss Beatrix, and I don't think temp form wins this. I could do math to check, but :effort:, going with gutcheck.
Tana (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Vyse (Skies of Arcadia) - Was about to vote Tana, then remembered techs are ITE. Yeaaaah, that does the job.
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - Gets countered, dies on Nergal's turn.
Ox (Breath of Fire) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia) - Hell if I remember what Ox can even do beside get shoved into the Karn blender. I'm going to assume nothing of note and Raine wins. >_>;
Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) - Yeah, no.
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile) - Will evade enough to ensure she does not see the PWS before he crits.

Light

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Not Algus.
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII) - Not Rufus.
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III)
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2013, 11:46:21 PM »
Quote from: SnowFire
Jo'ou, re Beatrix: So what that it's a timed fight?  That certainly isn't a reason to disqualify it (and I believe you can still Game Over the fight, it doesn't just continue if you die, at least for some of the fights).   Also, checking chat, it seems boss Beatrix does have a OHKO, and even if she doesn't, the dark spectre of FF9 boss speed hype might mean she doubles before the time limit is up anyway.  So yeah.

It's mostly because, holistically, it's a fight that you're not meant to win, so to speak. I do suppose that the fact you need to go through those battles to continue the game and the fact they do legitimately infer a game over on you are points in their favor. On the other hand, C Ending Freya also game overs your ass, and I have no love for the legality on -that- form (and I consider Beatrix and VP1 Freya quite comparable as duellers). You don't get rewards for the fight either, which is a YMMV point, but it's fairly meaningful to me. I suppose that, assuming you don't have issues with Beatrix from a plot fight standpoint, it's definitely the better idea to use that instead of her temp forms (far less scaling problems, the Beatrix fights -are- fairly memorable), but I personally just don't like Beatrix as a rank and I won't ever make holistic respect tiebreaks in her favor. I'd rather have Laike ranked than Bea, and I lobbied pretty hard for Laike's booting.

Re: Cathedral: I also take a similar view to NEB's regarding the ID (holistic respect checks! The same way I give no credit ever for EBO Zophar's overkill move that becomes useless when you move the person he targets), which obviously heavily factors in why I nommed the thing in Light. In-game, I found Cathedral thoroughly laughable for the AI manipulation reasons you mentioned (it pretty much never saw a turn outside White Robe, and XS2 fights are setup-heavy enough that manipulating the AI in that vein doesn't really slow down your damage output much), but we do view AI restrictions -very- differently (you prefer weighing it in more, I just all but throw it away because it's far simpler and less handwavy to me).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 11:51:03 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

ThePiggyman

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 12:46:02 AM »
Concerning the Tana vs. Vyse match, I believe that any counterattack done via Counterstrike or Skull Shield has 100% accuracy. I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall using Skull Shield especially against enemies that had annoyingly high evade and magic resistance, like the Loopers.
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 01:51:33 AM »
Godlike

Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World): yeah, Tirawa kind of wrecks this.
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III): Kneejerk makes me think that Ashera's counters spell bad news for Xorn's first part, and turn his own speed against him somewhat.
Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars): don't allow crystals, but he doesn't need them.
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI): Kefka needs one turn to win, Rashidi doesn't prevent that turn from happening.

Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2): Frog, survive Force Power at Condition Green, Frog again, win.
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX): resource war, Nel's moves do MP damage and she has more of it so...
Tana (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Vyse (Skies of Arcadia): Was going to vote Tana but then remembered Vyse can hamstring her damage some with turtling methods that also get around counters, that should tip the fight.
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue): think he OHKOs Rune.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword): Votingness doesn't happen.
Ox (Breath of Fire) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia): Outlasts.
Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals): Kneejerk.
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile): Counters tip this for Guy.

Light

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics): Kneejerk outlasts.
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII): I...think?
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters): FF4 Advance form should take this, maybe.
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III): Sure.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

superaielman

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 01:54:14 AM »
Quote
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters): FF4 Advance form should take this, maybe.

FF4a doesn't help Cid's damage. It still sucks thanks to him facing two black mages/competent white mages in the damage curve. 4a helps his durability and elemental defense options, mostly.
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Lance

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 02:18:50 AM »
Godlike
Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III)
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)

Heavy
Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX)
Tana (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Vyse (Skies of Arcadia)
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle
Ox (Breath of Fire) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)
Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile)

Light
Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII)
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III)

Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 06:28:48 AM »
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- Can he really be this sad to flounder against the type of match he should win in Middle?

Being as easy to double as he is and having a case for always going last, Nergal -really- is pretty bad. Given the HP and how easy it is to mitigate his defensive stats (S Rank weapons flying around, supports, goddamn Nils), anyone with average damage who can survive a single Ereshkigal thwack and has even Tin Man-level speed stomps him down. This is -not- a hard combo to manage. If you're harsher on counters (which you are), he gets -even worse-. Hell, I'd argue Nergal is a borderline Light with your counter interps.

Actually, FE bosses get counters to me. It's the flip of the horrible PC scaled against multiple PCs (Since counters on some of the them are basically their only way to really attack in game). Note, I guess technically for any bosses that are immobile with 1 range, they auto-lose to any 2 rangers to me.

Guess I'm about the only one seeing Tana's evade>SoA Techs. High end evade that gets everything>game where evade only basically gets basic physicals. There is basically no in game damage that Tana can not evade, and doesn't seem like SoA techs have at all a strong enough reasoning to get past this.

Also Gate, temp Beatrix crushes Nel unless Nel is seen as faster and has enough MP damage to over halve Beatrix's MP. Temp Beatrix has 1.3 PC HP damage, so in that way at least she is consistent with the boss (And never has any form that doesn't feature solidly above OHKO damage)
...into the nightfall.

SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 06:58:48 AM »
Laike hate train?  I'm in.  (I really don't like the scale-to-endgame hack yet PC Bea is kinda uber scaled to time as Dhyer notes, so).  "Time limit and you win/lose" is actually sort of an interesting gimmick, I can't see why it'd make a boss (or a PC!  for uh Phantom Brave Ash I guess) unrankable; I'm more okay with the general holistic "this has plot fight vibes, no likey, DNR" sentiment though I guess.  ( I certainly have less of a problem with boss Beatrix than, say, boss FF5 Gilgamesh, who can still technically kill you while talking to you but is very unlikely to in-game!

Actually, FE bosses get counters to me. It's the flip of the horrible PC scaled against multiple PCs (Since counters on some of the them are basically their only way to really attack in game). Note, I guess technically for any bosses that are immobile with 1 range, they auto-lose to any 2 rangers to me.

Guess I'm about the only one seeing Tana's evade>SoA Techs. High end evade that gets everything>game where evade only basically gets basic physicals. There is basically no in game damage that Tana can not evade, and doesn't seem like SoA techs have at all a strong enough reasoning to get past this.

Fun story: Ena vs. Lucia was a match that happened in the DL.  PC Ena obviously loses horribly, ZAP while she's untransformed.  However!  Despite Lucia having Lightning damage, it is so goddamn horrible that even with the (fairly moderate) FE9 weakness boost, it has real trouble breaking Ena's throne regen + natural regen + Ena's excellent Resistance.  And there's a solid argument that Lucia is Umaro and doesn't spam lightning anyway.  And with quasi-PC vs. boss you have to defeat, I was pretty inclined to tiebreak for 1-range boss Ena vs. an opponent with a ranged attack due to just plain not being able to lose.

If ThePiggyman is correct that Vyse's counters under Counterstance are ITE and that is seen as breaking FE evade, he quite possibly wins off strict Counterstance spam anyway without need for a Cutlass Wrath if techs aren't seen as ITE.  Vyse is fast enough to not be doubled and his durability is effectively being doubled (!!) here, so this is an uphill slugfest for Tana, fear her 6HKO or whatever.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 07:37:12 AM »
Tana wouldn't be hurt there since I wouldn't direct scale much against Vyse AS anyways (I wouldn't be surprised if she had to the speed to double him anyways though as she's a whopping 8 AS above average- for all that on normal mode that doesn't mean really anything different than about 5 or so less AS basically at about 75% to the end I think). So only a 5HKO! So maybe that would be enough for Vyse (At least it counter is a normal physical that ignores evade, it has a much better argument for ignoring Tana's evasion to me (which is actually 90% here)).
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 01:57:41 AM »
Godlike

Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III)
Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)

Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX)
Tana (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Vyse (Skies of Arcadia)
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)
Ox (Breath of Fire) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)
Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals)
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile)

Light

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII)
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III)

Pyro

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 02:40:15 AM »
Godlike

Sa-Lews (Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millenium) vs Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World): Try coming back with a Dispel move Sa-Lews. And one with damage.
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Xorn (Grandia III): Get some MT Xorn.
Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars): Sorry, I'm going to scale an optional Superboss harsher than your average main gameplay boss. Gadgeteer has very very powerful GT non-elemental damage that doubles her speed if Culex tries to summon crystals. If Culex tries Dark Star Spam he gets to face down double speed healer.
Rashidi (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI): I guess.

Heavy

Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2): Marivel is below average speed and has no Reflect.
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) vs Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX): I have no idea how to take Beatrix here. Probably as a Godlike PC but she's in Heavy so Abstain.
Tana (Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) vs Vyse (Skies of Arcadia): Counterstrike -> Cutlass Fury. It works.
Rune Walsh (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue): Wins an ID war (50% going first means Rune has at best 50% chance of winning through ID, probably a bit lower which nets Hiro a win). Triple Sword OHKO is more reliable though.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword): Nergal doubles squat so his damage is inferior.
Ox (Breath of Fire) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia): Raine 4HKOs. She herself doesn't deserve much speed credit, and is heal-locked by Ox. She can heal off his damage with Heal (60% healing, 20 TP) more or less (may sometimes need to go for more). Her damage costs 40 TP. She has 506 TP.  She has 19 heals to squeeze in doubles. But there is another time limit. Ox has a 12% double-damage critical hit rate, which means that he wins after 9 attacks. Can she get her 4 attacks in before he gets 9 turns, considering she is heal-locked? That would mean he can only get at most 8 attacks, which means she would need to heal 7 times + deal damage 4 times to win. This implies she gets 11 turns to his 8? I'm not sure I can see a ToS mage that fast to be honest...

Oh right, Ox has 3 shots of very close to full-healing. Raine is fucked.

Anise Tatlin (Tales of the Abyss) vs Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals): Starting IP makes this easier, for all that he just outslugs her to start with.
Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Aelia (Valkyrie Profile): Aelia gets two shots to KO him. He 3-rounds her, and even that may be close due to WTD. He has non-special evade against her because Lance. I multiply energy gains by 4 giving her a turn 1 or 2 PWS instead of 3, so this is a win for her. Hurray for spears.

Light

Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Algus Sadalfas (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Kiwi (Shining Force II) vs Rufus Shinra (Final Fantasy VII): No magic no luck. Kiwi is quite good in Light in a physical slugfest!
Cid Pollendina (Final Fantasy IV) vs Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters): Buuuurp. Copying Dhyer.
Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Melville (Suikoden III)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 09:18:02 PM »
Quote
Gadgeteer (Wild ARMs XF) vs Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars): Sorry, I'm going to scale an optional Superboss harsher than your average main gameplay boss. Gadgeteer has very very powerful GT non-elemental damage that doubles her speed if Culex tries to summon crystals. If Culex tries Dark Star Spam he gets to face down double speed healer.

Note that it really matters with the votes the way they are at this point, but what sort of things would you use to make Culex face harsher scaling? There's no optional content in SMRPG that gives any more levels. I guess you can throw the Super Suit in there (blah, I certainly never got anywhere close to being able to get that) or the Lazy Shell (which lowers Culex's damage but raises his durability... and I guess turn 1 speed)... Troopa Pin/Ghost Medal I guess? Dispellable auto-buff accessories against a boss are kinda weird but I could see doing something there.

Anyway, Gadgeteer faces a serious, serious uphill battle here, with the crystals considered. She needs to not be OHKOed by Dark Star, then she needs to outspeed the faster-than-base-Geno Wind Crystal (or gets hit with sleep/mushroom), then needs for Exploder Gem +1's to be allowed (I wouldn't if I'm recalling their price correctly... though I respect making an exception against a superboss, weirdly), then needs for the Exploder Gem +1 to be seen as hitting at least three crystals at once (which given how spaced out XF enemies are, I'm not too inclined to buy), since even two of them surviving leads to death (all combine for very easy 2HKOs except wind, which has fatal status).

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SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 09:59:01 PM »
Also, for Ox vs. Raine.  Ox *barely*, and I mean barely, 2HKOs Raine.  And while I'm not nearly as harsh on turn-based speed leading to getting doubled as some, I certainly take it literally as far as initiative, so Ox is going dead last, and Raine is going to (weakly) buff her Defense on her first turn.  This surely knocks Ox to a 3HKO, and he's slow.  As noted above, I'd STILL be willing to vote for Ox because the critical rate actually does help here (every other Ox turn risks completing a surprise 2HKO thanks to crit hype), except that Raine is the friggin' aggressor here, pumping magic into Ox and forcing the slow Ox to spend time healing.  According to Elf's numbers, Ox is only 1.08 PCHP, and Meeple claims that Ox's Magic Defense is horrifically game-worst, although that only matters for some magic in BoF1 (since it loves fixed-damage magic so much), so I'm not sure how harshly I'd hold that against him.  Anyway, I'd see Raine as pulling a 3HKO here off better resources, and forcing Ox to occasionally heal means Ox has even fewer turns to threaten Raine, and if Ox gets his crit while Raine is at full health it's semi-wasted (Raine just heals early in response).

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 2: Light possibly stronger than Middle edition
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 10:46:39 PM »
Everyone in BoF1 has the same MDef. Wisdom is the magic attack stat, and only affects damage taken if you are defending.

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