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Author Topic: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition  (Read 3402 times)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2013, 01:59:57 PM »
For Cathedral vs. Vitali: No SN, but seeing all the Vitali votes...  Usual reminder that the way to cheese Cathedral's ID is via party-switching, and that is an option that explicitly doesn't exist in the DL (unless you're Tal?!).  I'm still fine with holistic disrespect, of course, and even endorse it, but that applies to a LOT of boss moves - Cathedral's ID is still better in-game than, say, Cloud of Darkness's Bad Breath, where you are basically guaranteed to have 4 Ribbons and for it to do absolutely nothing rather than even force a switch, and most people let CoD spam BB, for example.  (Or how 4D Pocket is powerful in-game and good, but not instant win-the-fight.)

Okay, so fine, no ID interp.  Even if Cathedral is bad at slugging down Vitali, everyone seems to be going with Snow's antihyping of Poizn.   Remember that if you inflict the same L-status effect twice, it goes to an H level effect (at a percentage rate?  I forget, but if so, the "upgrade" rate was good I want to say, like 60%+.)  H-Poison is BRUTAL.  It is 25% HP loss per turn and shouldn't be affected by match-ups or anything.  So even if POIZN is literally Cathedral's only damage source, he merely has to stick H-Poison and then win in 4 turns, maybe less.

I make magical status go through RES checks, which makes the 50% at base infliction -really- suck. Vitali has game-best RES by a wide margin and it's a potent stat in-game - thus, gets my holistic respect. I suspect it'd turn even the L-Poison into turn 6 or something to me - i.e. the strategy deserves absolutely no respect from me, it practically inevitably runs out before the good poison lands. Dhyer doesn't see it that way, but he -does- allow status immunity décors, which shuts -that- avenue down. And I suspect Vitali can reasonably manage a 8HKO on Cathedral, depending on HP respect, if you factor in generics (which super does), since now Vitali deals above average damage with his book thwacks post-matches. This sensibly covers all votes.

EDIT: I also heavily contest Cathedral ID being better in-game than Bad Breath. At least Bad Breath you need a specific equip for, of which you might not even have enough for a whole party (they're not -hard- to find, but I think at least some of them are entirely missable), and which still carries defensive penalties compared to other equipment options. It's an easy choice to make, but not -entirely- mindless (that and the move isn't completely telegraphed and walled by a command you have available in-battle pretty much no strings attached for the whole game). Cathedral ID makes you WASTE ONE SINGLE XS2 TURN AFTER A THREE-TURN COUNTDOWN OH WHAT WILL I EVER DO I CANNOT CONTAIN MY TEARS OF REGRET - yeah. Considering I allow other moves to be similarly watered down (like Ameno's Bewildering Fog phase, which just happens to be badass enough to be very dangerous ANYWAY, or Legend of Legaia telegraphed moves, or Shadow Teddie's horrible two-turn-charge auto-stun charge moves that fail at everything in-game)...
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 05:12:30 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Pyro

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2013, 05:44:40 PM »
Dhyer, No one in the Shining Force 2 cast exceeds 20% combined crit/double rate. Slade comes closest at like 18%! He also relies on magic for damage, not his physical.

There also isn't much concern about evasion in the game (Flyers have some minor amount, but unlike ShF1 physicals always hit otherwise).

If Kiwi misses out on 2 unpromoted levels his attack doesn't go down but maybe 2-3 points (and 1 point attack < 1 point of damage, since there is downward variance and tile reduction to start with). In short this isn't affecting damage enough to miss the 2HKO on Mallow.

So how should I have done the stat topic to reflect how everyone views Kiwi, since no one agrees with my numbers?


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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2013, 06:05:47 PM »
Your topic also has a lower average (no overleveled spells) so if people allow that, Kiwi's damage also takes a hit.
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2013, 06:07:32 PM »
I've been thinking about that myself. Some possibilities:

-You could correct me on this, but IIRC all the unarmed people gain lots of strength from level, right? You gave everyone a bunch of extra levels by promoting later than 20, and that presumably helps the unarmed people more. While I definitely disagree with the bonus levels for unarmed people, even that broader decision, while reasonable, is probably helping with the kneejerks here.
-Weapons. One of the reasons I disagree with the favouritism to the unarmed people, above, is that in-game you have better weapons than the DL. You can get some from mithril, and some are also from chests/100% enemy drops (though of course, never enough for everyone). I think this may be a case where giving everyone storebought only undersells those with weaker storebought weapons and inflates the others (see: VP2). Though I'm not sure what to do about this. But still I can't help but think there's something wrong when I take a look at the bows, note you have everyone with the Great Shot when there are two better bows from chests/drops, and more from Mithril... you'd almost never stick an archer with the Great Shot at endgame in-game.


Oh yeah and Mallow has some small evade rate like all SMRPG characters if that's a thing he needs to escape a heal-lock (both are average speed after turn 1).

On a Culex note, something I tested yesterday: this doesn't matter for the Kefka fight I don't think, but it looks like the crystals' first turns come somewhat slower than normal. They're all between 0 speed and 20 speed on the first turn... they'll go before someone with a Lazy Shell but after untwinked Mario. On round 2 they'll go at their listed speeds. Presumably this is related to the summoning; I have no idea why they act later in the round, but not just last. SMRPG mechanics! Kinda weird but there you are.

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2013, 07:15:57 PM »
Godlike

Prototype Gear (Wild ARMs 4) vs Izanami (Persona 4)
Cidolfas Orlandu (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs Ameno-Sagiri (Persona 4)
Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)

Heavy

Lashiec (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs White Rose (SaGa Frontier)
Lenus (Legend of Dragoon) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time)
Vyse (Skies of Arcadia) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle

Sceptile (Pokémon) vs Ray (Fire Emblem: The Sealed Sword)
Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear (Tales of the Abyss) vs Zegai (Suikoden V)
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Light

Sheena Fujibayashi (Tales of Symphonia) vs Raticate (Pokémon)
Viki (Suikoden Series) vs Nanami (Suikoden II)
Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kiwi (Shining Force II)
Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) vs Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose)
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2013, 07:35:24 PM »
Dhyer, No one in the Shining Force 2 cast exceeds 20% combined crit/double rate. Slade comes closest at like 18%! He also relies on magic for damage, not his physical.

Oops, was looking at the random chance numbers in the other topic.
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2013, 10:14:25 PM »
Godlike

Prototype Gear (Wild ARMs 4) vs Izanami (Persona 4)
Cidolfas Orlandu (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs Ameno-Sagiri (Persona 4)
Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) - I guess I'll let the MT get around the Auras
Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI) - I can buy a OHKO here. Optional Superbosses need cool gimmicks to translate to the DL this well, their stats are basically reduced to average due to the scaling of 'aftergame'.

Heavy

Lashiec (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs White Rose (SaGa Frontier)
Lenus (Legend of Dragoon) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) - Ninjas love freezing shit.
Vyse (Skies of Arcadia) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle

Sceptile (Pokémon) vs Ray (Fire Emblem: The Sealed Sword)
Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear (Tales of the Abyss) vs Zegai (Suikoden V) - Healer-archer-princess solidarity.
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia) - Okay, I'll buy a Mana Break strategy.
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - ugh, more FE swordmasters. If we're gonna do this, can we at least nom Lyn?

Light

Sheena Fujibayashi (Tales of Symphonia) vs Raticate (Pokémon) - Just kneejerking this based on the last time I tried to use a Raticate for anything. Also, I think Sheena has a species-weakness-hitting weapon for beasts? Might be enough.
Viki (Suikoden Series) vs Nanami (Suikoden II) - kneejerking magic as better than physicals here.
Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kiwi (Shining Force II) - Frog vs Turtle! Clearly, Mallow wins through Telekinesis.
Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) vs Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) - Vitali, proving that Light matches can be fun.

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2013, 12:38:14 AM »
So should I redo the topic with Mithril weapons? I had done some numbers with it but realized that Mithril Gear was crazy random, tending towards the bottom-end stuff which isn't much better than storebought. Also Mithril is pretty well hidden, it is unlikely that you will have that many even if you find the Mithril forge. Without Mithril forging you're left with reasonable equips of (assuming you nab the drops)... Nazca canon for bow users (+3) and a Critical Sword for sword-users (+3). And of course Cursed weapons but you really really don't want those. The original topic ignored Mithrils and I figured they were annoying enough to get so I didn't include them. For the ShF1 topic I used some gear that was better than storebought where it was reasonable.
 
As for levels... Shining Force 2 is like Fire Emblem, where you want to hold off promoting for as long as reasonably possible to optimize your lategame stats. For weapon-using folk, this is unreasonable past a point because you start to tink things if you starve for weapon upgrades. For unarmed folk promoting doesn't give instant bonuses ever so they can optimize their promotion point without much trouble. Assuming everyone promotes immediately is great for prepromos though. I'm sure Seth and Titania would love that too, but that isn't the way FE was done. I extended that logic to ShF2 when I did the topic.

Overlevelled spells seem to have lost popularity of late. Which is totally cool with me since they are usually sort of stupid to start with (spellcasters get the spells but fighters don't get the weaspons/stats).

As it stands Kiwi has a fairly strong 2HKO on Mallow though. There would have to be a lot of problems with my numbers to bring that down to a 3HKO (and he has a cruddy Double/Crit rate in response to Mallow's cruddy evade rate, and no resource woes).

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2013, 12:53:26 AM »
Kiwi's doing 54% to Mallow by your numbers. That's not a terribly strong 2HKO.

In principle I actually agree with you about the "promoting people later" issue, but that's not how I played the game (nor many others I suspect) so the kneejerk will go the other way! I disagree with the unequal extra levels for anyone rather strongly, though. You're essentially rewarding unarmed people for better performance at Level 25-27 unpromoted? If you give extra levels due to performance, then let's give more to Peter/Bowie and less to everyone else. (i.e. we don't do this) And FE6 Sophia can stay at Level 1 forever because it's way harder to get her levels than it is to get a Level 25 unpromoted weapon user levels in SF2.

The original topic ignored mithrils yes and presumably also undersold weapon fighters, but without the bonus levels it was less obvious (plus that topic was made in an era of much lower standards for stat topics). I'm not sure what to assume for everyone here, like I said. It feels like giving everyone, say, their second weakest mithril weapon seems fair? Could be argued on specifics here, very easily.

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2013, 12:58:22 AM »
Sheena's beastslaying weapon is awful, something like 1/3rd the attack of her default weapon.  No way in hell does it let her beat Raticate.

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2013, 01:04:01 AM »
Sheena Fujibayashi (Tales of Symphonia) vs Raticate (Pokémon) - Just kneejerking this based on the last time I tried to use a Raticate for anything. Also, I think Sheena has a species-weakness-hitting weapon for beasts? Might be enough.

This halves her Attack though, so I suspect that after Defense, the beast weakness still makes it do less (Again, they both suck! Just when you thought Sheena kind of had something useful. The nearly non-existant DL undead hate her though).
...into the nightfall.

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2013, 08:43:03 PM »
Editting in a vote for Lenus. Since she gets a counter to a dragoon transformation, I'd probably see her countering the summon too, which yeah, immediately kills Vanille before she can command the summon to go into gestalt mode or whatever. I can see the case for Vanille instantly triggering gestalt->overdrive or whatever the fuck summons do before the counter but I'm never inclined to kneejerk for the FF13 summon strategy given how in-game tends to make it not work. So yeah, counter is triggered, Lenus kills Vanille. The summon will save her, but now Lenus' limit mode is activated and she just kills Vanille again.

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2013, 08:52:57 PM »
Godlike

Prototype Gear (Wild ARMs 4) vs Izanami (Persona 4)
Cidolfas Orlandu (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs Ameno-Sagiri (Persona 4)

Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)

Heavy

Lashiec (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium)
vs White Rose (SaGa Frontier)
Lenus (Legend of Dragoon) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time)
Vyse (Skies of Arcadia) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle

Sceptile (Pokémon) vs Ray (Fire Emblem: The Sealed Sword)
Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear (Tales of the Abyss) vs Zegai (Suikoden V)
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Light

Sheena Fujibayashi (Tales of Symphonia) vs Raticate (Pokémon)
Viki (Suikoden Series) vs Nanami (Suikoden II)
Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kiwi (Shining Force II)
Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) vs Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose)
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2013, 09:26:52 PM »
Godlike

Prototype Gear (Wild ARMs 4) vs Izanami (Persona 4)
Cidolfas Orlandu (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs Ameno-Sagiri (Persona 4)
Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)

Heavy

Lashiec (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs White Rose (SaGa Frontier)
Lenus (Legend of Dragoon) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time)
Vyse (Skies of Arcadia) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle

Sceptile (Pokémon) vs Ray (Fire Emblem: The Sealed Sword)
Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear (Tales of the Abyss) vs Zegai (Suikoden V)
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Light

Sheena Fujibayashi (Tales of Symphonia) vs Raticate (Pokémon)
Viki (Suikoden Series) vs Nanami (Suikoden II)
Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kiwi (Shining Force II)
Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) vs Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose)- Uh... Vitali HAS to trigger Call to Arms.  Which for his purposes doubles cathedral's durability in addition to forcing him to heal at actual intervals.  He can buff himself up plenty before that sure but... with OPB buffs.  Snow's '50 hit KO' is more like a 5, and Vitali can't win that.
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2013, 09:29:26 PM »
Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) vs Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose)- Uh... Vitali HAS to trigger Call to Arms.  Which for his purposes doubles cathedral's durability in addition to forcing him to heal at actual intervals.  He can buff himself up plenty before that sure but... with OPB buffs.  Snow's '50 hit KO' is more like a 5, and Vitali can't win that.

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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2013, 09:34:10 PM »
Cathedral is faster, so it eventually wins the "spam end turn forever" race, no?
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2013, 09:37:42 PM »
Godlike

Prototype Gear (Wild ARMs 4) vs Izanami (Persona 4)
Cidolfas Orlandu (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs Ameno-Sagiri (Persona 4)
Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI) - nope nope nope nope nope

Heavy

Lashiec (Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millenium) vs White Rose (SaGa Frontier)
Lenus (Legend of Dragoon) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII) vs Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time)
Vyse (Skies of Arcadia) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue)

Middle

Sceptile (Pokémon) vs Ray (Fire Emblem: The Sealed Sword)
Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear (Tales of the Abyss) vs Zegai (Suikoden V)
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Light

Sheena Fujibayashi (Tales of Symphonia) vs Raticate (Pokémon)
Viki (Suikoden Series) vs Nanami (Suikoden II)
Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kiwi (Shining Force II)
Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) vs Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose)

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2013, 11:39:45 PM »
Godlike

Prototype Gear (Wild ARMs 4) vs Izanami (Persona 4)
Cidolfas Orlandu (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs Ameno-Sagiri (Persona 4)
Shania (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) vs Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Culex (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kefka (Final Fantasy VI)

Heavy

Middle

Sceptile (Pokémon) vs Ray (Fire Emblem: The Sealed Sword)
Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear (Tales of the Abyss) vs Zegai (Suikoden V)
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Guy (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Light

Sheena Fujibayashi (Tales of Symphonia) vs Raticate (Pokémon)
Viki (Suikoden Series) vs Nanami (Suikoden II)
Mallow (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) vs Kiwi (Shining Force II)
Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) vs Cathedral (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose)

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2013, 12:50:04 AM »
Cathedral is faster, so it eventually wins the "spam end turn forever" race, no?

Like...endlessly trying to choose a new form? I definitely wouldn't see that as a move that he could endlessly spam as it would make no sense (it would also mean that forget about him being beaten by healers. Now they probably need to be faster healers too).
...into the nightfall.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2013, 03:50:27 AM »
Cathedral is faster, so it eventually wins the "spam end turn forever" race, no?

Like...endlessly trying to choose a new form? I definitely wouldn't see that as a move that he could endlessly spam as it would make no sense (it would also mean that forget about him being beaten by healers. Now they probably need to be faster healers too).

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. I'm pretty fast and loose with AI limitations, but in those cases, I'd probably minerva tiebreak against the one whose strategy this would work against in-game (Cathedral spamming wheels in-game is a horrible waste of turns for -him-, not the player in general). At best, I'd force it to break the wheel spam on doubleturns or something (like not allowing him to close the double on a Wheel of Memory). There's also the argument of Cathedral triggering counters (which I have no idea how I deal with, since I go gjlkjksldhfajshcvnm whenever I have to think deeper of SN counters). But nah, just not ever making AI tiebreaks for bosses on strategies that make absolutely no in-game sense.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2013, 06:41:40 AM »
You're basically arguing that, if Cathedral would change form, Vitali simply Ends Turn.  Now, Cathedral can't win with White Robe, so any move except trying to get Vitali to trigger a form change is a losing one.  However, if Cathedral is faster, then on double turns it can actually attack for it's piddly ass damage.  But since vitali is skipping all offensive action, this will eventually win the match.

My comment, setting aside my own view on End Turn (ie it's a forfeit), really more reflects that Vitali lacks meaningful actions to take before eventually having to take the offensive.  While good healers, especially ones with meaningful buffing spells, do pretty much automatically beat Cathedral, Vitali's options are limited due to the nature of SN's system and can't really take advantage of it.  Unless you're Tal.
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2013, 08:17:45 AM »
Yeah, this is the type of move that strikes me as "AI limitation bait." It doesn't win him things in game. This is less Vitali so much as that Cathedral in game...sucks in that it seems like every trick he can throw out here is something that the PCs can control in game.

Vitali just stands out more because Cathedral does 0 damage to him (Cathedral could break his Mdef, Stun him, and then have the bad damage cancel the stun). If basically you had to attack the Cathedral if you are slower, then he doesn't feel as Light to me (Too much HP otherwise). Especially against healers, they will need some damage too as he heal locks a lot once he builds one stock regardless. So a lot of Light healers would be in over their head.
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2013, 08:47:56 AM »
If limiting AI is how you normally treat certain bosses, then yeah.  But it sounds like you're also nerfing Cathedral based on... it being in Light.  Please don't do that.  It's in Light because the nom didn't register until I was already rolling noms, not because anyone except Snow thinks Cathedral is actually a Light.
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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2013, 09:03:22 AM »
Err I see Cathedral as pretty reasonable for Light, personally? Though very good there. But then I agree with the core views that make it that way (Wheel of Memory is worthless as far as I'm concerned since I let everyone wait but force people to not wait in case of a tie... and often tiebreak against the boss first in such a case). I'm also pretty sympathetic to "if someone nommed it in that division, treat it that way"... several people have also espoused views of this sort. I don't think I personally agree but then again I'd rather not see duellers who are this swingy nommed in general.

On the note of swingy duellers, has Viki picked up a majority of S4 voters since the last time she was in? Kinda feels like it, though we won't know for sure until she faces someone like say Mallow who very obviously crushes her non-4 forms. If that's what has happened... well it's fine, she'll upgrade to Middle and that's probably her rightful division in S4, ID is good but all the stats are shit (nearly -1 SD speed and only 0.56 pdur, gross). I just hope whoever nommed her in Light wasn't a S4 voter because that feels dishonest. (edit: it wasn't)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 09:54:14 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: RPGDL 2013 Season 2, Week 3: Everyone's from the same four games edition
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2013, 05:06:04 PM »
Yes, I nom'd Viki for Viki5 hype, sorry, I had no idea that Viki4 was wacky.  That's also why I was asking before about Nanami's damage.  A faster 3HKO probably does mean Nanami takes this over Viki5 to me.  (since lol Viki3/Young Viki3 in the DL.)

I actually am willing to adjust my views based on where a character was nom'd, don't see the problem with that.  FF8 characters all have pretty good arguments for High Heavy but the standard DL interp nerfs 'em to hell into Light, so sure.  It's not interesting to vote an interp that clearly isn't being meant.  (It's just that, uh, even max nerfed Cathedral makes him at worst a Low Middle, quite possibly a Low Heavy.)  FWIW, I see that Vitali has like a 6HKO to *average* in the stat topic with no generics (=~30HKO here?), so if we forbid Wheel of Memory spam / AI change / ID, Vitali is only outracing Cathedral if he both has an amazing match-up with Cathedral to speed that up AND his MDEF is seen as making Cathedral's poison happen only on turn lol.  Which Jo'ou seems to agree with both, so hey, it's possible!  Just seems a longshot from my perspective, and at best freak spoiling in Light.  (and of course Vitali gets miserably murdered if Cathedral's ID works.)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 05:12:50 PM by SnowFire »