Author Topic: Bradley Manning convicted.  (Read 2193 times)

superaielman

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Bradley Manning convicted.
« on: August 24, 2013, 07:12:44 PM »
(This was written right as the news of Manning's gender stuff was revealed. I don't consider it relevant and the treatment of transgendered people in prison is a debate for another thread. For the sake of clarity I am referring to Manning as Bradley/he in this post/topic.)

It's been all over the news, he got 33 years for his leaks. I'm curious as to what people think of his conviction, along with the time he got.

Other relevant things: There was a couple of months or so taken off for his mistreatment when he was first arrested.  He's likely to serve between 8-16 years before being paroled.
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SnowFire

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Re: Bradley Manning convicted.
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 08:13:34 PM »
Manning should rot in jail.  What they did was far worse than Snowden, and certainly worse than say the Pentagon Papers leak (and yes I know the Pentagon Papers leaker himself stood up for Manning).  Using the Pentagon Papers as an example, they proved that the US government was *lying* to the citizenry.  And not for a "good" reason either.  That's a big deal, and that's when a leak is justified.  Snowden drew attention to what is potentially a major breach of civil liberties...  and overhyped parts of it with Greenwald, and is apparently still carrying around a drive of classified data he doesn't want to release but wants to let people know he has for blackmail purposes (look, just delete it, okay), but the general point is that there's some justification here depending on the details of PRISM.

What Manning did was the equivalent of posting the US foreign service's instant messenger / Facebook posts publicly.  It turned out that the US government was *not* lying about its claims!  Oh boy!  There was absolutely nothing new from a policy perspective in Manning's leak.  I mean, perhaps you can take the position of "the US should have implemented a crash immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan" and use the various bad incident leaks to support your case...  but....  again, this isn't news.  We *know* there are helicopter raids & drone attacks going, and yes in a war there will be "collateral damage" (=civilian casualties), although of course abandoning towns to the Taliban leads to a different kind of civilian casualties.  So the main effect of the leak was to take various honest assessments of the situations in various countries, meant for internal reading, and let the subjects being assessed read it.  Great, way to discourage honest and useful reporting from our Foreign Service, exactly what we pay them for.  (This is ignoring the disputed issue of if American operatives / informants were compromised.)  Furthermore, both sides of a negotiation (say, Egypt / Israel or Saudi Arabia / Iraq) could now see what we told the other side, and surprise surprise, we told slightly different things to both sides....  in an attempt to make a deal and do diplomacy.  Oh noes.  (If we told one side which wanted 1 that we supported 3, and the side which wanted 9 that we supported 7, in the hopes we could eventually get them both to agree on 5.)  I believe in diplomacy and believe that careful use of diplomacy - which yes, involves massaging egos and making people feel important and the occasional foreign aid bribe - will save and has saved millions of lives.  Manning, by making diplomacy less effective, is a monster with blood on their hands, just not the obvious kind.

Of course, there's an entirely different issue in WTF was a private doing with access to all of the State Department's cables, and hopefully heads are rolling in information security, since there's just no possible way to vet every single enlisted man, this should have been State Department + relevant officers only.

NotMiki

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Re: Bradley Manning convicted.
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 01:03:11 AM »
I think he was vastly oversentenced, but I agree it's simply not acceptable to leak such a massive file dump to the public. However, if he had released the same file dump to a journalist, I would think it inappropriate to prosecute him at all, for the statecraft reasons SF has mentioned.  No matter how damaging the source material is, a series of articles just doesn't have the capacity to wreck US diplomatic efforts like a file dump does.
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superaielman

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Re: Bradley Manning convicted.
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2013, 08:05:19 PM »
Quote
Of course, there's an entirely different issue in WTF was a private doing with access to all of the State Department's cables, and hopefully heads are rolling in information security, since there's just no possible way to vet every single enlisted man, this should have been State Department + relevant officers only.

Seconding this strongly. What the *fuck* to the security shown there.


 I'm not sure how I feel about the length of time served for Manning. I think what I more take issue with is the mistreatment he was given at the start.
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NotMiki

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Re: Bradley Manning convicted.
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2013, 05:20:09 PM »
I should add, on the statecraft note, that I personally consider it best for foreign espionage activities that fall short of human rights abuses to be kept from the public.  How the US spies on China is a fascinating topic, Mr. Snowden, but I am not troubled if the US wants to prosecute you for leaking it.  All the NSA and FISA stuff about the general scheme for collecting it, on the other hand, is public interest material the US should not prosecute leakers for. 
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Dunefar

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Re: Bradley Manning convicted.
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 02:41:11 AM »
Quote
Manning should rot in jail.

About my opinion. I agree with everything SnowFire said, with added emphasis on the ineptitude of internal security. This wouldn't have been nearly so bad if information was better managed in the first place. I can only hope massive security reorganizations followed afterwards.

Personally, I think Manning's incredibly lucky he isn't getting the death penalty and that he should've gotten life without parole. The damage he did to diplomacy, and the increased discord that has and will bring, is incalculable. I consider him a traitor and a murderer-by-proxy. Every nation has little secrets and angles they run as part of diplomacy. This never needs to see the light of day like this, it's just how international relations work. Again though, this comes back to the insanity of a private without the ability to wholly grasp that having access to them in the first place.

I do have a little sympathy for him. He's clearly a deeply disturbed individual coping with mental problems. I just don't view it as meaningful mitigation against what he did.
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NotMiki

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Re: Bradley Manning convicted.
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 05:43:13 AM »
I consider him a traitor and a murderer-by-proxy.

How do you feel about John McCain and Lindsay Graham?  about a week ago they said some undiplomatic things that the Egyptian military used as cover for some extremely undiplomatic mass murders of civilians.  Damaging diplomacy and "getting people killed" is pretty bad, but none of these people pulled the trigger.  We don't throw people in prison for life because - as a result of their reckless actions - other people intentionally murder folks.  I can't accept a view of the world that treats the acts of dictators and murderers as some sort of unavoidable natural disaster - throwing the weight of their crimes on Manning's shoulders is unjust, even if Manning's acts are a factual cause of those crimes.

(I would have a different opinion if Manning had intended those acts to result in people getting killed, or if I believed that Manning knew with reasonable certainty that his actions would result in said killings.  That doesn't seem to me to have been the case.)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:45:38 AM by NotMiki »
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Dunefar

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Re: Bradley Manning convicted.
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 05:17:22 PM »
How do you feel about John McCain and Lindsay Graham?  about a week ago they said some undiplomatic things that the Egyptian military used as cover for some extremely undiplomatic mass murders of civilians.  Damaging diplomacy and "getting people killed" is pretty bad, but none of these people pulled the trigger.  We don't throw people in prison for life because - as a result of their reckless actions - other people intentionally murder folks.  I can't accept a view of the world that treats the acts of dictators and murderers as some sort of unavoidable natural disaster - throwing the weight of their crimes on Manning's shoulders is unjust, even if Manning's acts are a factual cause of those crimes.

It's so far removed from what Manning did that I don't want to address it in relation to what he did. I don't feel any comparisons are relevant to that. I also disagree with how you frame the question and some of the assertions there, so I don't really have a reply to the point raised, as I don't really want to get into a long, multi-quote semantics-fest. 

My take on what the core of what you said is this: A reasonable person should have known that releasing those communications was a bad thing and would lead to bad things happening, and as a leaker he has a responsibility to ensure that his information is used wisely. He failed on both those counts.
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NotMiki

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Re: Bradley Manning convicted.
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 08:15:08 PM »
My take on what the core of what you said is this: A reasonable person should have known that releasing those communications was a bad thing and would lead to bad things happening, and as a leaker he has a responsibility to ensure that his information is used wisely. He failed on both those counts.

That's fair.  The reason I can't quite accept that is that leaks that harm US interests are a vitally important part of the US Democratic scheme, and I believe they need to be, essentially, given the utmost legal protection to avoid the so-called chilling effect, where leakers with vital information that the public should know about decide not to leak that information for fear of prosecution.  The US has a proud tradition of protecting such leaks, and the Obama administration has done its damnedest to scuttle it in favor of centralized government control, and I am not happy about that one bit.

My father tells me that before Nixon, people genuinely trusted the government.  It wasn't Nixon's impeachment that showed how misplaced that trust was; it was the Pentagon Papers, which laid bare for the American public the cavalier attitude the military and government elite had regarding the lives of young American men.  The Pentagon Papers killed the draft, for all intents and purposes, and kept the US out of large-scale wars for decades.  And the Pentagon Papers are unquestionably as bluntly damaging to US interests as Manning's leaks were.  Unquestionably.  And I'd be shocked if people didn't die over the released information.

Manning's leaks lacked quite the same punch, but taken in the context of a catastrophic, economy-wrecking war of choice that killed we-don't-know-how-many-Iraqi-civilians-because-we-intentionally-didn't-count-so-we-could-avoid-knowing-but-probably-at-least-100,000 I sympathize with his attempt to generate public outcry.
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Reiska

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Re: Bradley Manning convicted.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2013, 03:13:38 PM »
Of course, there's an entirely different issue in WTF was a private doing with access to all of the State Department's cables, and hopefully heads are rolling in information security, since there's just no possible way to vet every single enlisted man, this should have been State Department + relevant officers only.

Belated: He was not actually a private at that time, he was a Specialist (E-4).  He was demoted to Private First Class (E-3) three days before being arrested for an unrelated physical fight with another soldier, and then demoted to Private as a component of his sentence in the conviction.