Author Topic: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.  (Read 1680 times)

superaielman

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Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« on: October 10, 2013, 03:51:54 AM »
Lucina (FE13) vs Endora (OB)
Lucina vs Caineghis (FE10)
Lucina vs Wugui (SH1)
Lucina vs Lugia (PKMN)
Lucina vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Lucina vs Beatrix (FF9)
Lucina vs Zerase (S5)
Lucina vs Momo (BoF3)
Lucina vs Strago (FF6)
Lucina vs Lawfer (VP1)
Lucina vs  Nina (BoF1)
Lucina vs Kain (TAY)

Hugo (S3) vs Endora (OB)
Hugo vs Caineghis (FE10)
Hugo vs Wugui (SH1)
Hugo vs Lugia (PKMN)
Hugo vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Hugo vs Beatrix (FF9)
Hugo vs Zerase (S5)
Hugo vs Momo (BoF3)
Hugo vs Strago (FF6)
Hugo vs Lawfer (VP1)
Hugo vs  Nina (BoF1)
Hugo vs Kain (TAY)

Raze (MK2) vs Endora (OB)
Raze vs Caineghis (FE10)
Raze vs Wugui (SH1)
Raze vs Lugia (PKMN)
Raze vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Raze vs Beatrix (FF9)
Raze vs Zerase (S5)
Raze vs Momo (BoF3)
Raze vs Strago (FF6)
Raze vs Lawfer (VP1)
Raze vs  Nina (BoF1)
Raze vs Kain (TAY)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2013, 04:06:11 AM »
Hugo (S3) vsEndora (OB)- Gets around Hugo's evade, while Hugo doesn't have enough raw firepower to try and blitz Endora.
Hugo vs Caineghis (FE10)- Speed, evasion, and potent fire magic. It should be enough.
Hugo vs Wugui (SH1)- See Endora.
Hugo vs Odd Eye (SF2)- Evasion gives Odd Eye trouble, offhand.
Hugo vs Beatrix (FF9)- Wind of sleep. Hugo is in deep shit if Beatrix gets a turn, but I think he can prevent that.
Hugo vs Zerase (S5)- Hugo might OHKO. He sure as hell will 2HKO though.
Hugo vs Momo (BoF3)- Think Hugo has a pretty solid lock. If Momo can speed buff-heal she is probably okay, but I don't think she'll get the chance.
Hugo vs Strago (FF6)- Sour mouth.
Hugo vs Lawfer (VP1)- S in repel makes Lawfer sad.
Hugo vs Nina (BoF1)-I don't think Hugo can deal with iIle.
Hugo vs Kain (TAY)- Mm. Not sure how I see Blink faring vs Hugo. Hugo has issues damaging Kain if blink eats an entire set of his actions. That+Fire defense means Kain likely outlasts in that case. Hugo still has Funeral Wind to fall back on though. Sure, I'll go with that as the tiebreaker.

Hugo: 7-4
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2013, 05:31:07 AM »
Lucina (FE13) vs Endora (OB) - Endora HP no likey me holding Tarot Cards against her.
Lucina vs Caineghis (FE10) - Uhh Noble Rapier is gonna hurt here and get past Cain's annoying defense.  Flip side, checking the stat topic, FE10 decided Cain should have uber skill too because that's fair, so Lucina's evade game is mostly out.  Caineghis goes first off threat range, but probably doesn't want to, I wouldn't be surprised if Lucina 3HKOs when hitting weakness.  Lucina can't safely chip with Javelins, that's suicide; 2 Javelins + one Noble Rapier isn't killing short of Aether on the Rapier shot.  Lucina going first, the odds aren't in her favor, as she has to hope for a Noble Rapier 2HKO, which isn't happening short of Aether; she'd much rather get the Noble Rapier 3HKO off.  Caineghis can also randomly win with his own death skill.  So yeah, probably Cain.
Lucina vs Wugui (SH1) - Stat topic claims he's "slightly above average" speed which uh okay.
Lucina vs Beatrix (FF9) - I suppose Shock can miss, but eh.  Coinflip based on Beatrix's first attack OHKOing, or her getting murdered in response.
Lucina vs Zerase (S5) - more of that OHKOing.
Lucina vs Strago (FF6) - OHKOs.
Lucina vs Lawfer (VP1) - counters.
Lucina[/b] vs Nina (BoF1) - Controversial vote of the day.  This is a bit wacky as I'm not inclined to let Nina know in advance when paralysis will wear off, and Lucina can threaten OHKOs even through Nina's weak buffs thanks to Aether, and Noble Rapier might hit another weakness (Panne has it even when she isn't transformed due to a Second Seal, arguably should apply to non-transfromed Nina as well....).  Meanwhile Nina takes like 6 hits to actually kill Lucina here.  That's at least 2 potential inconvenient wake-ups.  The fact BoF1 paralysis can only last for 1 turn means Nina can't do something like attack -> Hold -> attack -> repeat.  (Anyway I'm being contrarian to a degree, Nina of course has a fine argument, but meh.)
EDIT: Visible cue on Hold?  Okay, fine, Nina then I guess.  (I played BoF1 ages ago and also mostly snoozed through randoms with auto-battle.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 06:34:05 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2013, 06:07:06 AM »
Snowfire: BoF1 hold has a visible effect on enemy animation, and it wears off at the end of the round... i.e. before you choose your action, you can see if you need to re-apply it or not. Thus, when Nina is faster than her opponent, she can Hold-lock them, and Hold works 100% of the time (and Lucina's evade doesn't work against pure status in-game).


Lucina vs Caineghis (FE10): That physical durability is too good.
Lucina vs Wugui (SH1): I tend to see Wugui as a hair below average speed. Also, Game of Death can miss, if rarely, and I don't think Wugui has any evade, so if it is a coinflip for who goes first then Lucina should still win on average.
Lucina vs Lugia (PKMN): Lucina's evade drops Lugia to a 3HKO, but he's still much faster... but not so fast that Lucina fails to double him, and thus she 2HKOs. I guess he does 4-3, though, so if Recover lets him survive a second Lucina turn... blah, skill activations give me headaches. Edit: Yeah, Aether probably tips this.
Lucina vs Odd Eye (SF2): Gut says he can survive a Lucina turn, and unload with Odd Eye Beams / kill with a physical. The chance of sleep also helps.
Lucina vs Beatrix (FF9): Probably. Beatrix can blind Lucina but takes too long to put her away. blah blah no I don't give temps credit for learning spells sooner than maingame PCs
Lucina vs Zerase (S5): They slice! And dice!
Lucina vs Momo (BoF3): And slice and dice and slice!
Lucina vs Strago (FF6): Slice slice slice...
Lucina vs Lawfer (VP1): Dice dice dice...
Lucina vs Nina (BoF1): HOLD IT!
Lucina vs Kain (TAY): Okay, thought Lucina was sweeping the bottom half but guess not. For Kain... Lucina's 4 swings fuck over Blink pretty badly. If you see Haste shutting off doubles then Kain can probably take this but I definitely don't, Haste making someone literally 4x as good can go die.

Hugo vs Caineghis (FE10): Caineghis' low res means that Wind of Sleep is 85% or better here, so he can reliably get in two shots. Two boosted, true fire rune shots. See ya.
Hugo vs Wugui (SH1): Hugo not damaging enough for this.
Hugo vs Lugia (PKMN): Lugia is faster and largely mocks Hugo's offence and status, but has some problems putting Hugo away since his evade is so high... that said mm, Surf (which I allow) helps a lot, as it's 15 shots of 3HKO, or 2HKO with Rain Dance. So I think Lugia uses Rain Dance then starts 2HKOing, forcing Hugo to heal, and he only has five shots. Safeguard can be used to ward off Wind of Sleep, and Rain Dance can be reapplied, so sooner or later this works... Lugia is far too sturdy for to fear a lucky physical chain. (Recover of course is the fourth move.)
Hugo vs Odd Eye (SF2): Uh hmm. Yeah Odd Eye Beam is too much, I think, since Hugo is two-rounded except on turns where he sneaks in a double.
Hugo vs Beatrix (FF9): WoS.
Hugo vs Zerase (S5): Faster, can tank a hit if necessary.
Hugo vs Momo (BoF3): Faster slugger.
Hugo vs Strago (FF6): WoS.
Hugo vs Lawfer (VP1): Evade. And WoS.
Hugo vs  Nina (BoF1): oh god, initiative headaches. Well, the most favourable view is just to see Nina as faster when doing anything but attacking. So she opens with Wall to not get owned. Hugo attacks, 2HKOing of course. This is... a heal lock of some sort. Pretty sure it's a heal-lock even after Fort, so I can't see how Nina can do anything at all here. Also Hugo's immune to Hold! Nina never gets a chance to cast Idle (if it would even help that much) because she loses to Wind of Sleep if she ever gives Hugo a turn without Wall up.
Hugo vs Kain (TAY): Think Hugo's Continuous Attack skill nerfs what respect I might have had for Blink here. Also could TAY even block sleep and/or ID?

Raze vs Caineghis (FE10): Yeah no.
Raze vs Wugui (SH1): Wow that's a lot of spoiling.
Raze vs Lugia (PKMN): I'd be stunned otherwise. So much faster in particular.
Raze vs Odd Eye (SF2): Should overwhelm.
Raze vs Beatrix (FF9): Hmm Beatrix can't actually block holy, surprising. As such I'm not sure how to vote.
Raze vs Zerase (S5): Probably.
Raze vs Momo (BoF3): Whatevs, copying Snow here.
Raze vs Strago (FF6): Sour Mouth then heal.
Raze vs Lawfer (VP1): Justice Stream: so badass it literally kills Raze twice over.
Raze vs Nina (BoF1): I see nothing in the list of MK2 statusblockers which remotely resembles paralysis, so bye.
Raze vs Kain (TAY): Well Raze cuts through blink like it's nothing, so uh Kain slugging check time? I'm not too comfortable on either of these duellers and the people I trust to analyse MK2 matches haven't played TAY so uhh yeah abstain.

Hugo 8-3
Lucina 8-3
Raze 2-7 (could go as high as 4-7 easily enough, but... yeah. To be fair to him the other two are H/G level)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 02:09:21 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2013, 08:25:27 AM »
Hugo (S3) vs Endora (OB)- Uh...
Hugo vs Caineghis (FE10)- So FE 10 weakness is...triple weapon might? So...Caineghis in effect might take like an extra 15 from Fire magic? 20? I guess Hugo's evade should maybe see him through this (at least preventing the one rounding)
Hugo vs Wugui (SH1)
Hugo vs Lugia (PKMN)- Lugia Safeguards, Hugo attacks, Lugia...oh, Hydro Pump. So Hugo 4HKOs and Lugia 3HKOs, but Lugia can only use that 5 times before falling to worse attacks and Lugia's healing is only 50% although Hugo only has 3 shots of healing here. Or just Funeral Wind
Hugo vs Beatrix (FF9)
Hugo vs Zerase (S5)
Hugo vs Momo (BoF3)- He probably just heal locks with that physical off good speed
Hugo vs Strago (FF6)
Hugo vs Lawfer (VP1)
Hugo vs  Nina (BoF1)- Well, Hugo can't block Paralysis and I think BoF 1 blocks Sleep. Did BoF 1 Paralysis shut down evade?

Raze (MK2) vs Endora (OB)- Definitely not under the impression that Endora can live through any type of Holy physical
Raze vs Caineghis (FE10)
Raze vs Wugui (SH1)- Spoilz
Raze vs Lugia (PKMN)- So close statistically. Raze has slightly under 50% chance to activate a counter here, and about 58% chance to ID without the counter. But neither crosses the threshold
Raze vs Beatrix (FF9)
Raze vs Zerase (S5)- Zerase versus two physicals
Raze vs Momo (BoF3)
Raze vs Strago (FF6)
Raze vs Lawfer (VP1)
Raze vs  Nina (BoF1)- He has so much time

Hugo 5-3
Raze 5-5
...into the nightfall.

superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2013, 02:38:49 PM »
Endora isn't really weak to holy, that is Rashidi. Also, OB only takes one resistance when it checks a defense: IE holy physicals will take the holy resistance stat and then run a physical check from there).
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2013, 02:57:36 PM »
Lucina (FE13) vs Endora (OB) - Kneejerk of lol ohko is really strong. Endora -might- be able to avoid a double, but eh.
Lucina vs Wugui (SH1) - I see Wugui as below average speed. Gogogo.
Lucina vs Lugia (PKMN) - Lucina getting two turns kind of makes this decisively hers in my mind.
Lucina vs Odd Eye (SF2) - Unlike Elfboy, I'm not sold on Odd Eye surviving a turn. So it goes.
Lucina vs Beatrix (FF9) - Yeah.
Lucina vs Zerase (S5) - Ravage.
Lucina vs Momo (BoF3) - Rend.
Lucina vs Strago Magus (FF6) - Slaughter.
Lucina vs Lawfer (VP1) - Devour.
Lucina vs  Nina Wyndia (BoF1) - Tornado Hold!

Hugo (S3) vs Endora (OB) - She blitzes a bit too fast for Hugo to handle.
Hugo vs Wugui (SH1) - Sigh.
Hugo vs Lugia (PKMN) - Lugia has to open with Safeguard, but I think the bird's safe once it does. Since I see Funeral Wind as turn never against it to boot...
Hugo vs Odd Eye (SF2) - Fire resistance staves off a OHKO threat, eye beams keep Hugo under pressure.
Hugo vs Beatrix (FF9) - Funeral Wind.
Hugo vs Zerase (S5) - 2HKOs first.
Hugo vs Momo (BoF3) - Okay. Hugo opens with a physical. Momo's in range of death from both a second string and a Final Flame, and I don't think Hugo's slow enough under Explosion to be lapped by Momo unless she casts Speed... but if she casts Speed, he just answers with another physical, since she doesn't lap him regardless if he physicals x2. She could try to answer the physical 2HKO with Protect, but that gets her splattered by Final Flame. That's game, set, match.
Hugo vs Strago Magus (FF6) - EDIT: Yeah, Wind of Sleep => Hellfire twinked for maximum damage works to KO Strago here. Hugo's glad S3 sleep applies a 25% bonus to damage.
Hugo vs Lawfer (VP1) - evaaaaaaaaaaade
Hugo vs  Nina Wyndia (BoF1) - BoF1 doesn't block sleep, but not sure it matters? Nina alternates Wall/healing until a double and casts Hold, I suppose? Hm. Keeping vote on her for now.

Razeluxe Meitzen (MK2) vs Endora (OB) - Hitting a weakness makes this kinda ugly. That and I'm sure Raze survives long enough for Falling Trees to finish its work.
Razeluxe Meitzen vs Wugui (SH1) - ID-immune physical slugger who resists Darkness against Wugui. This is just gross.
Razeluxe Meitzen vs Lugia (PKMN) - Sure, burping Dhyer.
Razeluxe Meitzen vs Odd Eye (SF2) - Raze... kinda gets a second turn. That's a bit much, Odd Eye's kinda fragile.
Razeluxe Meitzen vs Beatrix (FF9) - Wait, she can't actually resist Holy? Welp, this took a turn for the strange quickly. Problem is - how good is her healing come endgame? If it's at the 75% area, I'm pretty sure she can alternate healing and damage for a while... though her actual -damage- is expensive and she needs to heal often and effectively may even -5HKO- Razeluxe, which... yeah. I'll need to check her damage and her resources here.
Razeluxe Meitzen vs Zerase (S5) - Welp.
Razeluxe Meitzen vs Momo (BoF3) - Falling Leaves => Twin Calibur definitely KOs Momo before she gets a second turn -unless- she casts Protect on her first. Which... heh, actually works, since now she's above average durability and the following ones will come at a worse effect. I GUESS Raze could attempt some pressure shenanigans with Photo Silhouette, but that just means she Speeds instead and now she has an edge on him. A second Protect means she roughly quarters physicals, and she probably gets the time to after she heals once. After that's up, she's good to go.
Razeluxe Meitzen vs Strago Magus  - Raze would have a case for winning EVEN AFTER BEING STATUSED... if Strago didn't have healing, as problematic as it is. Oh well.
Razeluxe Meitzen vs Lawfer (VP1) - Given how I take VP1 averages higher, I -think- Raze lives to see a third turn.
Razeluxe Meitzen vs Nina Wyndia (BoF1) - Raze gets one Falling Leaves off and then they get healed away after Hold.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 02:56:23 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2013, 05:43:11 PM »
Lucina vs Caineghis (FE10) - Yeah no.  Also I find it very hard to take Noble Rapier effectiveness hype seriously here, it barely manages above average damage with that +16 (and even after accounting for impact on individual swings, Caine defense is kind of woah, he's certainly not 3HKO'd by it), never mind the issue of whether it'd work on Caine in the first place.
Lucina vs Wugui (SH1) - Sure, I'll buy Wugui being below average speed.
Lucina vs Lugia (PKMN)
Lucina vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Lucina vs Beatrix (FF9)
Lucina vs Momo (BoF3)
Lucina vs Strago (FF6)
Lucina vs Lawfer (VP1)
Lucina vs Nina (BoF1)

Raze vs Caineghis (FE10) - Yeah *no*.
Raze vs Wugui (SH1) - ID-immune physical slugger who resists Darkness and has Light-element physicals against Wugui.  Left somethin' out there bro.
Raze vs Lugia (PKMN) - Sure.
Raze vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Raze vs Beatrix (FF9)
Raze vs Momo (BoF3)
Raze vs Strago (FF6)
Raze vs Lawfer (VP1) - Sure, at worst Blessing of Light ensures he sees a third turn.
Raze vs Nina (BoF1)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 08:41:17 PM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2013, 02:33:38 AM »
Agree that Lucina may well need an Aether in her 3 Noble Rapier hits if it wasn't obvious, which is why Cain has this (even if you see Aether as triggering on the third hit, which is shaky, Cain gets a hit and chance to trigger his own deadly proc) even if forced to go first and attack into Lucina.  Maybe a no-Braves average would let Lucina 3HKO straight up?  Anyway, definitely think Lucina's best odds are to use the Noble Rapier against Cain defense anyway, Brave Sword only tickles him.  Although, re Random...  definitely see beast-weakness as afflicting Cain.  I suppose the argument against is that Poleax / Thani / etc. don't in FERD, but attacker's definition is more important here, and beast-weakness in FEA explicitly covers Panne / Yarne.  (And thanks to Aversa's recruitment map, you can even fight evil Panne and murder her with a Noble Rapier.  AND for what little it's worth, Panne / Yarne have chats in the DLC crossover battles where characters like Sothe & Zihark treat them like laguz.)  So, uh, Lucina & Chrom > Skrimir?!  (A real achievement, I know.)

Hugo (S3) vs Endora (OB)
Hugo vs Caineghis (FE10) - Caineghis has stupid Skill so he isn't missing ever, but he needs to one-round here and doesn't.
Hugo vs Wugui (SH1)
Hugo vs Beatrix (FF9) - Checking the stat topic, boss Beatrix's Shock is apparently ITE.  Guess Beatrix vs. Lucina was less close than I thought.
Hugo vs Zerase (S5)
Hugo vs Strago (FF6) - Sure I'll buy the sleep-boosted OHKO argument.
Hugo vs Lawfer (VP1)
Hugo vs Nina (BoF1)

6-2

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2013, 06:46:44 AM »
Not that it matters, but Hugo doesn't need to OHKO Strago (or anyone else sleep-vulnerable slower than him). In Suikoden 3, if the target is asleep to start the round, they get no action. In the DL (and I can attest this works very well in-game, WoS honestly makes me seriously consider a Wind > Cyclone argument), Hugo can do:

Round 1: Wind of Sleep. Faster than his opponent so they miss their turn this round.
Round 2: Some attack that wakes them up (often Hellfire). As per above, opponent gets no turn this round.
Round 3: Some attack which kills the target. Hugo is faster than his opponent, so they get no turn.

(If you insist on translating everything into CTB, you can think of S3 sleep as resetting the target's CT to zero, and it only starts building again once they wake up, leaving them prey to an instant double.)

Against more durable opponents he can try to alternate attacks with WoS to achieve a lockdown, but since WoS accuracy isn't perfect this rapidly becomes dicy. Regardless, it means he easily rips apart the likes of Strago.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2013, 08:08:10 AM »
Oh yes, Super pointed out that Berserker could wait for VP damage against Estelle. The twist is that...Estelle goes and equips a crappy weapon so that her physical hits 0 damage...but the S-Craft still does about 1200-1250. So that's near the OHKO level, and a spell would put Estelle over the top. I guess Berserker could double and use Charging Thrust. That takes about 8-9 turns, but Estelle hits 100 CP with 5 attacks.

Oh wait, those attacks probably also have 10% Freeze attached to make this statistically clearer to me. Interesting stalling match!
...into the nightfall.

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Re: Proving Grounds, Round 2 Week 1 Heavy-Hugo burns it all down.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2013, 06:42:08 PM »
Hugo (S3) vs Endora (OB)
Hugo vs Caineghis (FE10)
Hugo vs Wugui (SH1)
Hugo vs Lugia (PKMN)
Hugo vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Hugo vs Beatrix (FF9)
Hugo vs Zerase (S5)
Hugo vs Momo (BoF3)
Hugo vs Strago (FF6)
Hugo vs Lawfer (VP1)
Hugo vs  Nina (BoF1)
Hugo vs Kain (TAY)

Raze (MK2) vs Endora (OB)
Raze vs Caineghis (FE10)
Raze vs Wugui (SH1)
Raze vs Lugia (PKMN)
Raze vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Raze vs Beatrix (FF9)
Raze vs Zerase (S5)
Raze vs Momo (BoF3): Will set up the pressure required.
Raze vs Strago (FF6)
Raze vs Lawfer (VP1)
Raze vs  Nina (BoF1): Immunes Hold?
Raze vs Kain (TAY)