Author Topic: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...  (Read 3017 times)

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Godlike

Exdeath (Final Fantasy V) vs Tidus (Final Fantasy X)
Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Dheginsea (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Celes Cher (Final Fantasy VI) vs Layna (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Zog (Breath of Fire) vs Killer (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Groudon (Pokémon)
Etward Dysler (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Mog (Final Fantasy VI)
Stefan (Fire Emblem Series) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)
Scias (Breath of Fire IV) vs Fujin (Final Fanasy VIII)

Middle

Lexis (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Aht (Radiant Historia)
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lavandaler (Tales of the Abyss)
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Odie (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Regal Bryant (Tales of Symphonia) vs Mother (Wild ARMs)

Light

Shady Thousand (Wild ARMs 3) vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss)
Magikarp (Pokémon) vs Jelanda (Valkyrie Profile)
Nina (Suikoden II) vs Labyrinthia Wordsworth (Wild ARMs XF)
Tony (Wild ARMs XF) vs Piccolo (Suikoden III)
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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2013, 05:18:19 AM »
Godlike

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Dheginsea (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Celes Chere (Final Fantasy VI) vs Layna (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)- Should be able to take a shot from Layna.
Zog (Breath of Fire) vs Killer (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)- Even with the speed difference, man. Zog's got way more HP.

Heavy
Stefan (Fire Emblem Series) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)
Scias (Breath of Fire IV)
vs Fujin (Final Fanasy VIII)

Middle

Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lavandaler (Tales of the Abyss)- Strong kneejerk that Karsh can't one round.
Light

Shady Thousand (Wild ARMs 3) vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss)
Magikarp (Pokémon) vs Jelanda (Valkyrie Profile)
Nina (Suikoden II) vs Labyrinthia Wordsworth (Wild ARMs XF)- Labby is beyond awful against fighters.
Tony (Wild ARMs XF) vs Piccolo (Suikoden III)
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SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2013, 05:47:44 AM »
Exdeath (Final Fantasy V) vs Tidus (Final Fantasy X) - Tidus MDef.  Think he loses to either Exdeath form, too.  (Well not final Exdeath with no form-chain of the no-durabilty, sure.)
Zog (Breath of Fire) vs Killer (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)
The good news: Zog is a really tanky boss who spoils the giant surge of damage with huge cooldown nonsense that translates extra-well to the DL that SH3 has.  The bad news is I don't let him him spam his best damage, and it's ramming into fire resist anyway.  I want to say Zog is probably 3HKOing here or something, which means if Killer can 4HKO he has this - and that 4th hit is going to be his D-Combo.

Heavy

Stefan (Fire Emblem Series) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3) - Angela's status is 100%, and SPD is worthless against pure status, and Stefan's RES is below average anyway.  Ow.  Even if he OHKOs off an Astra or whatever, he probably goes second anyway due to bad threat range.

Middle

Lexis (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Aht (Radiant Historia) Trap kaboom deals with Lexis easily enough.
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lavandaler (Tales of the Abyss) - Uhhhhh.  This comes down to CC STAMINA IN THE DL I think.  Natalia wants to buff -> heal and wait for doubles, Karsh wants to maintain a heal-lock but not use his big damage element.  Does Natalia's TP run out first?
Regal Bryant (Tales of Symphonia) vs Mother (Wild ARMs) - Mother was not good to my limited recollection.  The prisoner picks his status-immune boss form which is also not good but still a better slugger.

Light

Shady Thousand (Wild ARMs 3) vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss)
Magikarp (Pokémon) vs Jelanda (Valkyrie Profile)
Nina (Suikoden II) vs Labyrinthia Wordsworth (Wild ARMs XF) - Kneejerking against suikoscrubs.  EDIT: Suikoscrubs with good MDef?!  Labby....
Tony (Wild ARMs XF) vs Piccolo (Suikoden III) - Kneejerking against suiko- wait, that's a doglike.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 07:34:55 AM by SnowFire »

Random Consonant

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2013, 06:32:04 AM »
Godlike

Exdeath (Final Fantasy V) vs Tidus (Final Fantasy X) - Unsure, but I think the speed game's enough to blitz out Castle Exdeath.
Celes Cher (Final Fantasy VI) vs Layna (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) - Gets a turn, applies Vanish to self, toodles.

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Groudon (Pokémon) - Too much HP, offhand.
Etward Dysler (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Mog (Final Fantasy VI) - Don't think 15% ID cuts it here.
Stefan (Fire Emblem Series) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3) - Kneejerk is that she gets a turn.

Middle

Lexis (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Aht (Radiant Historia) - Assuming Aht goes full-tilt for status blocking and one assumes three relevent attack boosters as the default setup... Push Assault into a Star Trap still kills Lexis of the 0.85 PCHP to me, meaning Lexis has a 50/50 chance to guess where the safe back row tile is (obviously the one directly behind him is going to be unsafe since I force him to start in the center of the grid and the trap covers two of the three back panels).  On the flipside if he guesses right he wins unless you allow Dreamless, but if you allow Dreamless this isn't a discussion anyways.  He could opt for confusion here to me since RH lacks that status and as such doesn't block it to me but... wait.  It only wears off on being physically hit?  Well if Aht derps it up for two turns that's good enough since Lexis 3HKOs her, the only way she ever effectively wins on Turn 1 is through Dreamless and I don't feel much love for allowing that these days.  Go starting IP interps I guess.
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Odie (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) - Gonna assume he 2HKOs first and not gonna think about it.
Regal Bryant (Tales of Symphonia) vs Mother (Wild ARMs) - no.

Light

Magikarp (Pokémon) vs Jelanda (Valkyrie Profile) - Um.
Nina (Suikoden II) vs Labyrinthia Wordsworth (Wild ARMs XF) - Uh okay Nina does 0.3 PCHP and has below average tech, misses the 2HKO on Labby barely, and isn't fast enough to 3-2.  Labby likely 3HKOs back with Lightning... so it boils down to Weapon Guard and whatever Nina's bad tech stat does to her accuracy. e: eh sure going with this
Tony (Wild ARMs XF) vs Piccolo (Suikoden III) - wow
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 06:45:38 AM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2013, 06:36:57 AM »
Godlike

Exdeath (Final Fantasy V) vs Tidus (Final Fantasy X): EDIT: On second thought, eh, it's really close, abstain.
Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Dheginsea (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn): Has MT to avoid counters, and tentacles blocking hits for him means average speed Dheginsea is no threat.
Zog (Breath of Fire) vs Killer (Shadow Hearts: From the New World): Killer can output a real pile of damage here... probably gets three turns, using the last one to double? I still don't think it's enough.

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Groudon (Pokémon): EDIT: Uses magic to nuke the head if necessary, then tanks the pure fighter with Bulk Up/Rest.
Etward Dysler (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Mog (Final Fantasy VI): Quick kneejerk here, Mog defence is too high and he should be able to strike Et down with ID or something?
Stefan (Fire Emblem Series) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3): Stefan has much more damage than any other FE9 myrmidon, hitting well above average and dealing 87% over a double. Angela has 83% HP. Stefan goes first because Angela's spells are the slowest things in the game. ... although once she starts charging if she wins with a spell the PC side wins even if the enemy wipes her out while charging if I'm remembering SD3 mechanics right? Abstain for now.
Scias (Breath of Fire IV) vs Fujin (Final Fanasy VIII): Halving status and having powerful physicals should be enough.

Middle

Lexis (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Aht (Radiant Historia): As usual, no respect for traps - they're only worthwhile IF you force the enemy to start in the centre square AND don't let the enemy know which squares Aht has trapped.. and even then she only wins half the time! Without those and overlevelled spells she's running into status IPs.
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lavandaler (Tales of the Abyss): Karsh is near the top of the CC damage curve, I am skeptical that he can't heal-lock with basic physicals given the power of L7s.

Light

Shady Thousand (Wild ARMs 3) vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss): Sigh. So many terrible Lights in this field, of course Shady draws one of the good ones.
Magikarp (Pokémon) vs Jelanda (Valkyrie Profile): Magikarp HALVES FIRE aw yeah this doesn't matter.
Nina (Suikoden II) vs Labyrinthia Wordsworth (Wild ARMs XF): Nina's MDef staves off a 3HKO, she has no trouble 3HKOing herself. I guess WEAPON BLOCK could tilt this but meh, so could crits.
Tony (Wild ARMs XF) vs Piccolo (Suikoden III): Zap.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 07:23:08 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 07:32:38 AM »
Nina MDef hype?  I see, Labby.  I see.

Elf, point of order on Aht, though: You don't need to require opponents to start in the dead center square to see traps as relevant.  Let's say Lexis starts in the top-center square and you allow non-RH characters grid movement.  Aht can either trap center + bottom or center + top.  I claim she just flips a coin to pick one.  So if Lexis moves to the back himself, it's clearly a 50/50 coinflip.  If he ignores it, then half the time Aht Push Assaults, half the time she lays another trap, and then Aht will basically psuedo-3HKO at worst.  Thus, against enemies slower than Aht not in dead center, they're still stuck in a 50/50 guess situation unless they can win in a single turn.  Otherwise Aht just spends that extra turn to trap everything and does a 50/50 split on turn 1 for top/center vs. center/bottom.  (Okay, if Lexis has some unreliable status accessible on turn 1 thanks to starting IP AND Aht isn't seen as blocking it, then you get fun game theory diagrams where Aht traps directly behind him slightly more often when he isn't in the center....  but moot for me, I let her block all Lexis's stuff.)

In fairness, if I allowed RH opponents to move on the RH grid, the match is a coinflip - Lexis moves on turn 1 to the back row and dies 50% of the time, but Aht can only 3HKO him at best, and if she does a switch to set up a double -> 3HKO, I suspect Lexis 2HKOs Aht's awful Pdurability with the switch damage buff.  So if Lexis guesses right, he wins some horrible slow matchup where 1 healer has MP restoration and the other doesn't.

Pyro

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 12:35:00 PM »
I see no reason to allow foes to move intelligently on the RH enemy grid. If you do that you may as well let them move to the front/back for increased/decreased damage, and that is silly. The "Let Aht's enemies move intelligently" thing makes LESS sense than giving, say, Killer and Lady's foes Hard Hits, or Melbu Frahma's foes the LoD Defend command, or FE bosses/PCs counters. Less, actually, since not every RH enemy can move!

As far as the "Aht can't hit them with the trap if they are in the back row!" thing goes, I'd just as soon ignore it because traps are very good in-game (except vs. the spiders and final boss). Also center row makes the most sense period because of the way the damage system works (pushing will result in them doing/taking slightly less damage, pulling in slightly more).

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 12:45:03 PM »
Exdeath (Final Fantasy V) vs Tidus (Final Fantasy X) - Being so physically reliant before half HP kinda sucks, doesn't it?
Celes Chere (Final Fantasy VI) vs Layna (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) - Vanish. Gooooooooooooodbye.
Zog (Breath of Fire) vs Killer (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) - Waaaaay too much of a durability split. Is Killer's fire resistance even enough to ward off a 2HKO? I mean, 25% reduction isn't that hot and he's kinda frail (not that it -matters- here).

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Groudon (Pokémon) - Later.
Etward Dysler (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Mog (Final Fantasy VI) - Mog's pdur can spoil physically reliant Godlikes. Et's just not up to scratch.
Stefan (Fire Emblem Series) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3) - Later on this as well.
Scias (Breath of Fire IV) vs Fujin (Final Fanasy VIII) - He could well OHKO. And doesn't have to.

Lexis (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Aht (Radiant Historia) - Aht trap hype can burn in hell for eternity as far as I care.
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear (Tales of the Abyss) - Another one I have to check out (Natalia buffs could be relevant here, of all things).
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Odie (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) - 2HKOs and counters. Stocke has no hope of OHKOing back - or 2HKO while avoiding counters himself. Unless Fire magic is one of Odie's bad matches.

Shady Thousand (Wild ARMs 3) vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) - Welp.
Magikarp (Pokémon) vs Jelanda (Valkyrie Profile) - FLAIL HYPE
Nina (Suikoden II) vs Labyrinthia Wordsworth (Wild ARMs XF) - Eh, whatever. Labyrinthia sucks. EDIT: yep. Nina 3HKOs very solidly, is considerably faster and avoids a 2HKO from Lightning spam without much fuss herself. Labby might as well rename the Rule of Tim.
Tony (Wild ARMs XF) vs Piccolo (Suikoden III) - And Tony's worse, regardless of his elem resists.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 05:26:36 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Nephrite

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 04:44:30 PM »
Godlike

Exdeath (Final Fantasy V) vs Tidus (Final Fantasy X)
Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Dheginsea (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Celes Cher (Final Fantasy VI) vs Layna (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Zog (Breath of Fire) vs Killer (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Groudon (Pokémon)
Etward Dysler (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Mog (Final Fantasy VI)
Stefan (Fire Emblem Series) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)
Scias (Breath of Fire IV) vs Fujin (Final Fanasy VIII)

Middle

Lexis (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Aht (Radiant Historia)
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lavandaler (Tales of the Abyss)
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Odie (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Regal Bryant (Tales of Symphonia) vs Mother (Wild ARMs)

Light

Shady Thousand (Wild ARMs 3) vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss)
Magikarp (Pokémon) vs Jelanda (Valkyrie Profile)
Nina (Suikoden II) vs Labyrinthia Wordsworth (Wild ARMs XF)
Tony (Wild ARMs XF) vs Piccolo (Suikoden III)

Pyro

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2013, 05:19:27 PM »
Godlike

Exdeath (Final Fantasy V)
vs Tidus (Final Fantasy X): He has Hurricane before 50% HP. Hurricane -> Tap. The question is if Tidus kills before X-Death gets a second turn. And probably not? X-Death is kind of fast, if undurable. Tidus will do what... 24600 damage? If you let him start with a half-full Overdrive bar, he goes for Passive overdrive and rips X-Death a new one when he tries to Hurricane it up. And Tidus' Overdrive does... 14500 damage. Dunno if that should be enough to KO X-Death.
Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Dheginsea (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)
Celes Cher (Final Fantasy VI) vs Layna (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters): Invisibility.
Zog (Breath of Fire) vs Killer (Shadow Hearts: From the New World): Way too much of a durability edge.

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Groudon (Pokémon): POIZN.
Etward Dysler (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Mog (Final Fantasy VI): His status beats out hers?
Stefan (Fire Emblem Series) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3): Status?
Scias (Breath of Fire IV) vs Fujin (Final Fanasy VIII): Kills in 2 hits or so...

Middle

Lexis (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) vs Aht (Radiant Historia): Trap KO.
Karsh (Chrono Cross) vs Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lavandaler (Tales of the Abyss): I guess I'll just go along with NEB.
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Odie (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Regal Bryant (Tales of Symphonia) vs Mother (Wild ARMs): Status?

Light

Shady Thousand (Wild ARMs 3) vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss)
Magikarp (Pokémon) vs Jelanda (Valkyrie Profile)
Nina (Suikoden II) vs Labyrinthia Wordsworth (Wild ARMs XF)
Tony (Wild ARMs XF) vs Piccolo (Suikoden III): Tony doesn't resist Lightning!

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 06:15:31 PM »
I see no reason to allow foes to move intelligently on the RH enemy grid. If you do that you may as well let them move to the front/back for increased/decreased damage, and that is silly.

The silliness you mentioned is why my initial feeling was we would just not consider the RH grid system at all, but it became clear that I was in the minority there so I dropped that. No, what's silly is letting RH PCs use the grid, but not their enemies. That would allow things like "Stocke can push his enemy to the back row and take reduced physical damage, and there's nothing they can do about it!" when the enemy could just move back to the front to avoid this! (Granted, unless the enemy is faster than Stocke, or has some "attack while moving" special ability like Raquel, this is a losing proposition as moving takes a turn.)

IF you allow RH PCs to use the grid system, the opponent gets to use it too. It's only fair. Last I checked most people allow Balgaine's opponents to "move" to not get owned by him instantly; this is the same thing.

Quote
since not every RH enemy can move!

You are correct, but the ones who can't move also can't be pushed (and therefore trapped) so I don't see how this helps your argument at all! ;-)

Quote
As far as the "Aht can't hit them with the trap if they are in the back row!" thing goes, I'd just as soon ignore it because traps are very good in-game

Yeah, the traps which are missable optional skills, hit one less target than G-spells and fail entirely against many crucial enemies sure are amazing. The reality is probably closer to
Quote from: In-game use thread
Stocke: 6.78
Raynie: 6.43
Marco: 7.07
Rosch: 3.00
Aht: 5.14
Gafka: 5.29
Eruca: 3.79

But you can have your own opinion obviously. HOWEVER, I do have an objection. By your views Aht will never fail to be able to get a trap off (except against the 1% of the DL which is unpushable), since you make enemies start in the centre row and don't let them move. In that case Aht's damage is considerably higher on average than it is in the stat topic which you made. I suggest you go fix that. (Doesn't matter for this match, don't get me wrong, since Lexis durability isn't that great.)

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Random Consonant

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2013, 07:21:43 PM »
Quote
As far as the "Aht can't hit them with the trap if they are in the back row!" thing goes, I'd just as soon ignore it because traps are very good in-game

stopped taking you seriously right here

edit so this is less catty: I just want to add that if you do things like say everyone ever gets to be in the back row against FF6 bosses regardless of whether or not they should even have that option (and these days I am actually fairly ameniable towards letting PCs do that, but bosses don't exactly have a row command to take advantage of) or as elfboy mentioned, letting people move out of the way of getting mauled by Balgaine, forbidding people a RH character faces from spending a turn to move is pretty much completely inane and indefensible and displays a fairly absurd level of bias.  Being able to move is pretty much a property of every RH enemy that can be pushed, those that can't move are either unpushable or occupy the entire grid and there is absolutely no reason why this shouldn't translate.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 07:29:56 PM by Random Consonant »

Pyro

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2013, 07:55:54 PM »
Quote
F you allow RH PCs to use the grid system, the opponent gets to use it too. It's only fair. Last I checked most people allow Balgaine's opponents to "move" to not get owned by him instantly; this is the same thing.

I think the key difference that we have is that I make a distinction where there is intelligent/active control over position manipulation like this (Balgaine, FF Row, etc...) and where there is not (RH... remind me if you find more). You can (and, uh, should) use movement control when fighting Balgaine. RH enemies will not do so. Their 'move' commands may as well be randomized "End up somewhere randomly on the battlefield" options. Extending that "Enemies in RH can rarely change their position to a random point on the grid" to "Everyone who faces RH can select where they want to be on that grid" is kind of a stretch.

I feel a better comparison than any of these would be if, say, FF6 had an 'enemy row' that enemies could randomly change. Would you then extend this ability to everyone who faced an FF6 PC? The PC/boss Controllable/Uncontrollable distinction is captured more in this situation, which is why Aht and Balgaine are two different cases.

In general, the RH grid is a distinct system that can be of use to RH PCs. It is not particularly unfair to other casts to let the RH PCs make use of it if it is fairly reflected in the averages (I'll update RH's topic to include a 3-turn with one Aht Trap usage, oversight on my part). And we have a pretty good example of a game series that benefits tremendously from an asymmetry in using the game's system (Fire Emblem) and RH is not nearly as aided by position/turn gauge shenanigans as FE is by universal counters.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 08:02:51 PM by Pyro »

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2013, 08:08:36 PM »
Well, the argument would be that in-game, RH enemies never move intelligently to avoid traps, they just move either randomly or else predictably INTO traps of their own volition.  What Elf mentioned about traps having a weakness is fair, but that weakness in-game is almost exclusively unpushable enemies / enemies that take the entire grid, something that doesn't come up so often outside of Godlike in the DL.  I can see a holistic argument that "traps aren't hosed as often in the DL as they are in-game, nerf them," but what Pyro was referring to is surely that in-game, Aht will have support with stuff other than Push Assault to ensure the trap connects, something she doesn't have in the DL, so it balances to a degree.

My own personal complaint with allowing this cart-blanche to any opponent is that allowing RH grid movement should, to me at least, absolutely allow the damage reduction / increasing effects as well, or else we're really hacking the system to pieces.  So characters like Rosch get randomly hosed by Boco or whatever who goes and cowers in the back while spamming Choco Cure and countering, which is kind of weird.  Anyway, as for me, I think that characters with a cleanly legal move command or row switch command can go play the 50/50 guessing game with Aht if they want, just that doesn't include Lexis.  But this actually does include a reasonably large swathe of the DL, like most FF characters or strat-RPG characters, so seems fair enough at reflecting in-game.

Incidentally, did RH enemies with guns / other ranged weapons in the back row do reduced damage?  If so, then Aht might beat Lexis anyway given either status protection or no starting IP hype, because Lexis would fail to 2HKO Aht despite the switch bonus, and Aht's Cross Star damage doesn't care about row IIRC, so she'd just heal until a double -> Switch -> 3HKO.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2013, 08:57:16 PM »
Given that you allow the RH Switch command, then Boco is no threat to Rosch regardless. (Also Rosch ignores FFT counters with various non-basic-physical moves.) Anyway I'm fine with ignoring the RH grid system for most matches (as I mentioned, a part of me wants to ignore it entirely for all matches), but as soon as an RH PC wants to play with it then I absolutely will consider the other side playing with it too.

I don't really care how smart RH enemies are at using the move command. DL opponents are smarter than random enemies; this isn't the first case we've seen this. Final Fantasy enemies will cheerfully choose to waste turns attacking air if a solo dragoon (or a party of dragoons) uses Jump, but in the DL we absolutely let Kain's opponents use those turns to heal or buff instead. In many games, using silence on enemies causes them to skip turns trying to cast spells anyway; in the DL we don't make silence a "skip turns" status and instead say the opponents get to intelligently switch to their unsilenceable skills. etc.

More to the point, I know that Snowfire, at least, has repeatedly hyped enemies moving out of Arnaud's status spells (an interp which I agree with, though it doesn't come up too much because Slow Down is so badass at turn economy). There's no way such a view is reconcilable with saying RH's opponents can't move. (It's possible that all such instances of this argument have involved people who could move in their home games, though.)

The only reasonable consequence "RH enemies are stupid" has on this argument, IMO, is saying that it implies enemies can't see traps (I never saw an enemy walk into a trap but sure I'll defer to you that it can). I dunno if I agree, but it's at least reasonable.

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2013, 09:42:36 PM »
Fair enough that the Boco example is off, but point is still basically there.

For Arnaud, that's a little different, although yes, I grant characters who aren't actively immobile a WA4 move if they want it.  (Sorry, non-moving FE bosses.)  First off, the WA4 hex system is used by both PCs and enemies, so it's pretty easy to theorycraft say Yulie vs. Arnaud, and PCs of course get perfect intelligence, and extending this to other PCs isn't hard.  Second of all, Arnaud Illusions a WA4 enemy, and then the enemy AI says make a move, any move, and that works for throwing off Arnaud's debuff.  No strategy required, and the elemental hex impact from wandering around is usually more subtle than RH row impact.  To deal with solo Aht, RH enemies must either make for one of the 2 back spots, or else theoretically stall for time and more physical damage by moving to the front.  I get the argument to use "PC logic" anyway - I scale FE PCs against themselves for things like speed rather than the enemy speed average - but the fact that the RH grid is enemy-only and feels like the RH PCs' plaything in-game makes me lean toward applying something harsher.

Anyway, for another in-game vs. DL thought, I'm vaguely reminded of status spells.  Lots of games have status spells that are brokenly good in irrelevant easy monster fights and immuned by relevant boss fights and still end up great in the DL.  Traps are basically the damagey version of this, except they're less good than status in some of the tougher random fights in-game, but work really well in half the boss fights.

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2013, 10:19:28 PM »
To get out of an Aht trap situation, an RH enemy would have to move to the correct position, which will be 1/8 possible choices for a Star trap and 2/8 possible choices vs. the Sleep Trap.

Extending movement in the RH grid to everyone RH folks fights has one practical effect, and that is to make Aht's traps completely worthless. What other point is there in taking that interp? It's not even really 'internally consisent' because RH is a unique situation with regards to this. You can make the comparison to Arnaud (or Raquel's Poison I suppose) but that is both a different situation (where PC/enemies use the same hex grid) and does not have nearly as much of an impact on fighting worth.

I don't like the loligoat either, but don't think she needs to be beat with the nerfbat. Seems like this is the only thing that matters for her vs. Lexis.

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2013, 11:13:54 PM »
in order for traps to be worth something enemies need to be pushed into them

aht is bad at pushing, only being able to push enemies in one direction (backwards)

in game traps work because someone else (like say stocke or marco) does the pushing

if aht fought a solo battle ingame traps would probably be pretty bad there for precisely that reason, the opponent would have no reason to move anywhere other than a spot where it couldn't be pushed

just like fft jump would be bad if lancers faced something that could consistantly get turns while they were mid-jump, it'd just casually stroll away from where the lancer would land

if opponents are allowed to behave intelligently there is no reason as to why they could not foil both of these things as best they could if given the chance

this is not nerfbatting

this is not about hating the stupid loligoat

this is acknowledging the fact that traps do not work that well while aht is alone

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2013, 11:18:26 PM »
And let's not even get into the fact that Aht CANNOT grid-manipulate anything at all for over half the game, which makes the section where she's forced an utter pain in the ass unless you tweak Stocke's speed to be higher than hers, since she -makes battles take longer- due to her second turn on the first round being a waste. I cannot possibly fathom why should Aht be considerably better at manipulating trap positioning in the DL than she is -in-game- (even Raynie does it better than her until Aht reaches L36 and it matters FAR LESS for Raynie on both counts).
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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2013, 11:51:04 PM »
I did a low level Aht solo for a while, she wasn't that bad (won boar at L3, crystals at L11, inn bodyguard was ... L13 iirc) until Thaumachine~
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Pyro

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2013, 12:07:08 AM »
There is no evidence that anything like controlled voluntary movement on the RH grid exists.. There is no comparable PC mechanic. So the interp choice to allow anyone RH faces to control. their position is granting them more control over the RH position mechanic then the RH PCs themselves have!

Traps are fine for a single shot. Aht can pay a fair price for her inability to slide left/right/toward in that she can only use a trap once in a fight. This is fair to her endgame self (Arguments about her midgame soloing capability have no bearing outside of like Nyarly's, and in-game use soloing is a weird tack to take)

If you are looking for some kind of 'fairness parity', give whoever fights RH bosses push or pull capabilities. That is tge 'Balgaine' comparison you want to make. Sorry boss Rosch~

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2013, 01:49:45 AM »
Oh no, she can only use her borderline OHKO damage once per fight, what a nerf. In exchange for this (by your views) she gets to

(a) push ~99% of the DL when a far lower fraction of enemies could be pushed in-game,
(b) get a guaranteed one push per battle when close to one third of pushable enemies start in the back row in-game

Frankly Aht's already getting a huge boon in the DL thanks to having Super Heal, a spell I gave no fucks about in-game because of Tourniquets existing, being cheap storeboughts (dirt cheap at endgame, which as you noted is what matters), and usable by everyone. So even if her traps are less useful in the DL than in-game to me (since I see them as useful in the DL only for getting her one turn closer to doubleturning... which does matter!), other things are better, and it balances.

And I don't even particularly dislike the character (that'd be Gakfa if anyone <.<), so please don't point to that.

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Pyro

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2013, 02:40:57 AM »
a) The percentage of RH enemies that are pushable is surely above 80%. Crystals, the few giant Spiders, and the final boss about sums up what isn't pushable. Most major bosses are.
b) It is reasonable to assume someone starts in the center row if you consider row at all, because of the damage considerations. Beyond that, in-game Aht's party members will always be able to whack someone into them in the back row if it comes down to that (Stocke is forced, no?), so the point being Aht is already worse in a duel than her in-game self (who will be able to use them almost constantly) with respect to traps. Makes more sense than "Traps are a way to use up enemy turns" which is an alien way to look at them. If you use a trap and the enemy doesn't waltz into it (which in fairness they probably will) then you're the one wasting the turn/MP.

Healing being over-valued in the DL is nothing new. Just about every game ever has storebought ST healing items that deflate the value of a skillset healer in-game. Don't see that as a reason to punish Aht for traps, which are far less inflated than most Status-slingers are, and the DL tends to be awfully nice to status slingers.

Traps are a (probably *the*)  memorable/important part of Aht's combat performance. It is a little frustrating that a small subset of enemies basically immunes them, but the same is true of just about every form of elemental damage ever too. If there are two reasonable interpretations, one that lets her use only one a fight (a loss from in-game) while hitting a higher % of enemies she faces (a boon), and another which just says "Traps can burn in hell for eternity" then the former is the fairer, cleaner, more-true-to-in-game interp.

No trap usage (even once) for the likes of Melbu Frahma, a variety of FE bosses who don't/can't move or be moved (Lyon? Nergal?), Lich/Kary/Kraken/Tiamat (Fullscreen bosses!), Rasputin (he was huge, right?), Nicolai (again, massive demon?), BoF Sara... it's not completely irrelevant. The list grows a bit to include the likes of Fubar if you consider them horizontally aligned 1x2//1x3/2x3 creatures on the RH grid. I'm probably not thinking about other things that can't move/be moved either.

Anyways, Aht loses pretty cleanly without traps, since the most she can do is Push Lexis back and he'll keep on using Trick/speed debuffs/whatever until he KOs on a double, and he's not frail enough to be KO'd by two of Aht's weak magic attacks. So this point is crucial for the fight.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 03:49:40 PM by Pyro »

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2013, 02:57:25 AM »
(a) Various plant enemies aren't pushable as well.
(b) I agree with you that it is on its face, reasonable, but this is a considerable, and arbitrary, boost to Aht's performance. I also have trouble taking it seriously. I forget if there are any attacks which only hit the centre row in RH but I probably wouldn't give them much credit in the DL if so. (I know Gafka has one that hits the centre column, and I don't think anyone assumes that always works turn 1.)

Quote
in-game Aht's party members *snip*

Yeah, stopped reading right there, see Random for my thoughts on that. In-game Nils' party members make good use of the turns he gives them, he still auto-loses in the DL because the DL is all about what you can do without allies.

This isn't about "punishing" anyone. Our kneejerks for what works in the DL just happen to be different.

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Random Consonant

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Re: RPGDL 2014 Season 1, Week 1: Man you think Light sucks this week...
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2013, 03:33:29 AM »
Well it's not like trying to avoid Quigong Wave is terribly productive against the person who has that "get in the center dammit" skill.  I mean after all, moving does take a turn which could be used for something actually productive, so you'd need to be noticably faster.  Likewise, if Aht could move people left or right I don't think this discussion would be taking place.

The only other thing I have to add that's worth adding is that saying anyone who faces RH bosses should get access to positioning skills sight unseen is kind of grossly misrepresenting things.  RH enemies being able to take a turn to move is one thing (whether or not they do so intelligently is completely irrelevent as far as I'm concerned) since it is a part of the system, but PC-end grid manipulation is tied to specific skills which not everyone has access to.  I mean I don't think anyone argues that someone with a skill with knockback attached wouldn't be able to push Viola to the back, but there is a pretty clear reason to say that not everyone gets the equivalent of Push Assault when facing her down.  (RH bosses also aren't forcing any sort of special system on the people they face, so they're not really obligating anyone to treat things as such)

I think it's fair to be, as Snowfire has noted, harsh in this sort of situation since Aht's opponent is faced with a guessing game (since there's no indication that RH enemies are aware that certain panels are trapped), but arguing that they don't get the choice at all despite being blatantly forced into the system strikes me as kind of dishonest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 03:40:37 AM by Random Consonant »