2020 Miscellaneous Links: Untitled Moose Game

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I love theories like this and the digging for evidence.

I presume you meant to put evidence in the most sarcastic of quotation marks, here

[Captain K]

if they hired real writers 98% of the playerbase still wouldn't read the quest text

MMO localization is a strange thing

And the other 2% would complain loudly that they didn't want real writing, they wanted erectile dysfunction.

[AndrewRogue]

I love theories like this and the digging for evidence.

I presume you meant to put evidence in the most sarcastic of quotation marks, here

Nah. See Soppy's comment. It's all nonsense and long grabs, but it's fun to see what people can pull out to support arguments.

[Grefter]

if they hired real writers

Fucking wrecked.

Meh, blood from a stone Andy man.

[metroid composite]

I think that it could have been neat, but I don't buy it. Most of the arguments feel to me like they're reaching

I mean, I think the thing that sells it to me is the Jar Jar Binks actor tweeting "thank god people are starting to figure it out".  That's what differentiates this from "cute theory that someone on the internet came up with" to "yeah, this was probably intended."

I mean yeah: most of the jedi mind trick stuff is kind-of whatever--ooh he waved his hands.  That could be dismissed as commedy.  The only jedi mind trick that really stick out are when Jar Jar mouths the words that someone is speaking as they are speaking them, like he's a ventriloquist.  Like...someone had to have consciously told an animator to do that; it must have been deliberate.  He's not an actor, it can't be involuntary movement.  There's no comedy value in it--it's way too subtle.

Similarly for when he hangs from the balcony, and then drops in a different location.  Someone had to tell the animators to have droids shooting at his old location, and then pan their heads around to see his new location where he dropped.  It's pretty clearly not error.  It's not "oh, we just forgot where he was in that shot", given that they animated for his change of position.  And again, Jar Jar is animated--they could have manually placed him on the right of the Jedi to start with, rather than go to the trouble of starting him on one side, getting shot at, and landing on the other side.  It's a lot more work, and thus is probably intentional.

I agree that a lot of these are circumstantial.  But some of them are so much more work that something weird is going on for sure.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I mean, I think the thing that sells it to me is the Jar Jar Binks actor tweeting "thank god people are starting to figure it out".  That's what differentiates this from "cute theory that someone on the internet came up with" to "yeah, this was probably intended."

Yeah there's no way he would say that to mess with people.  An elaborate shell game from George Lucas, a guy who doesn't understand ambiguity, is far more likely.

[SnowFire]

It's just a funny bon mot, yeah.  Best was amused by the suggestion, it's totally something I could have said/tweeted in his position.

Moreover, I'm actually willing to conceive Lucas of playing some deep shell game, but if he did, at least in the past, he knew enough that you can keep a secret between two people only when one of them is dead:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back#Filming

Like the rest of the crew, Prowse—who spoke all of Vader's lines during filming—was given a false page that contained dialogue with the revelatory line being "Obi-Wan killed your father."[15][31][32] Hamill did not learn of the plot point until just before the scene was filmed, astounding the actor; Kershner advised him to ignore Prowse's dialogue and "use your own rhythm". Until the film premiered, only Lucas, Kershner, Hamill, and James Earl Jones knew what would really be said

So even if this theory about Lucas's secret plan was true, it's quite possible that Best wouldn't be able to confirm or deny it anyway.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Also Star Wars really doesn't do double agents.  The only times they even used disguises it's readily apparent to the audience that those Stormtroopers are Han and Luke, or that the guard in Jabba's Palace is Lando, or that the hologram man telling the racist Chinese caricatures what to do is the Emperor.  It's odd but duplicity on a character level is basically unheard of in Star Wars.  We never see someone in the Rebellion sell out to the Empire for cash, not even Han who is literally on the verge of being murdered for his debts, and when Anakin falls to the Dark Side for realsies, he cuts ties with the Jedi Order immediately and violently even though it would probably be super advantageous to have him leading the order after a purge of the rest of the Council.  The closest we get is Lando, who is forced into it, still tries to protect Leia and Chewie, and then repents almost immediately after.

Also, mc, have you seriously never seen someone stand behind another person and mouth words along with them before?  It's a thing people do to amuse themselves, particularly if that person has a particular way of speaking.

[Grefter]

You are wrong there Rob.  There is totally spies that betray people.  Bothans.

And they only exist and then were tortured and killed off camera.

That's what you get.

[metroid composite]

Also, mc, have you seriously never seen someone stand behind another person and mouth words along with them before?  It's a thing people do to amuse themselves, particularly if that person has a particular way of speaking.

No, don't think I have (or not without some payoff like making the people who can see you roll their eyes or laugh).  Also, neither of these people had peculiar ways of speaking.  Also...just in terms of screen readability it seems weird--why would you have two people mouthing the same words in a movie without a specific purpose?  That seems unnecessarily confusing.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

You are wrong there Rob.  There is totally spies that betray people.  Bothans.

And they only exist and then were tortured and killed off camera.

That's what you get.

Bothans just spy, they don't betray people.  Sneaking is totally okay, not immediately severing ties when you are on the opposite side?  NOT okay.

No, don't think I have (or not without some payoff like making the people who can see you roll their eyes or laugh).  Also, neither of these people had peculiar ways of speaking.  Also...just in terms of screen readability it seems weird--why would you have two people mouthing the same words in a movie without a specific purpose?  That seems unnecessarily confusing.

If screen readability was something in Lucas' brain, we wouldn't have had minutes upon minutes of CGI animals added in and distractingly moving in front and behind of shots in Mos Eisley.  It's just as likely that Lucas saw someone do that in real life and thought to himself "that mouth thing is a thing that is funny.  I will have Jar-Jar do it, because Jar-Jar is funny." 

He's not a big fan of ambiguous character alignments.  Need I remind you of his reasoning for having Greedo shoot first?  His exact words: "Because I was thinking mythologically — should he be a cowboy, should he be John Wayne? And I said, ‘Yeah, he should be John Wayne.’ And when you’re John Wayne, you don’t shoot people [first] — you let them have the first shot. It’s a mythological reality that we hope our society pays attention to.”  When you leave him to his own devices, you get a world where good guys are good guys, bad guys are bad guys and everyone just says how they feel all the time while sitting at a couch in shot/reverse shot.

I know there's a tendency in nerd culture, especially among the fans that get real obsessive about shit like Star Wars, to overanalyze every single thing, but Star Wars' strength is that it's really all there on the surface.  It's not a world with secret hidden narratives, because that's not a level Lucas operates on.  The Prequels are basically eight hours of Lucas' unchained id writ large and it's nothing but lasers and computer monsters and spaceships and a dash of racism.  He didn't write these movies with anyone else, so they're entirely on his level of pew pew lasers and space mans.  There's no Kasdan to save him and that's why there IS no deeper level to these films.  They're written by the man who thought Darth Icky was a great name.

And Obi-Wan didn't murder Owen and Beru to get Luke to leave with him either.

[metroid composite]

He's not a big fan of ambiguous character alignments.  Need I remind you of his reasoning for having Greedo shoot first?  His exact words: "Because I was thinking mythologically — should he be a cowboy, should he be John Wayne? And I said, ‘Yeah, he should be John Wayne.’ And when you’re John Wayne, you don’t shoot people [first] — you let them have the first shot. It’s a mythological reality that we hope our society pays attention to.”  When you leave him to his own devices, you get a world where good guys are good guys, bad guys are bad guys and everyone just says how they feel all the time while sitting at a couch in shot/reverse shot.

OK...so...you say that people in Star Wars are either good or evil.  So...then the next question is...is Jar Jar good or evil?

Like...he dissolves democracy, gives unlimited power to Palpatine.  These aren't the actions of a good person.

By your own logic of how George Lucas thinks, Jar Jar is clearly evil, because he did something that helped an evil person.  Sooooooooo........  (Even allowing for him being a comic relief character, other comic relief characters like C3PO and Chewie don't go around dissolving democracy on accident).

I know there's a tendency in nerd culture, especially among the fans that get real obsessive about shit like Star Wars

I can assure you that I'm not an obsessive fan, at least when it comes to Star Wars.  I've seen each movie exactly once.  I didn't even hate the prequels when I first watched them, which I'm pretty sure is a requirement for being an obsessive Star Wars fan....

[Grefter]

If you are reading a straight interpretation of the movies, Jar Jar is good in the Lawful Good sense.  Palpatine plays him like a fiddle, Jar Jar is pushing for people to give him absolute Executive power over the republic to fight off a foe that had doggedly refused to back down from peaceful trade sanctions, had escalated a war and was shown to have plans for a weapon of mass destruction (Death Star plans from Attack of the Clones). 

He helps an evil being and while Lucas works in clear cut good and evils, he doesn't really deal in a world where you nebulously become more evil just by associating with evil people (these evil people will subtly push you to fall though of course...).  While there is no doing bad things for good reasons, doing good/evil things is also an active choice you make.

Generally speaking as a hardcore fan, the best parts of the EU was always the bits in the middle where shades of grey are allowed to exist.  The moment you bring Jedi into stuff it tends to shit up the setting because they naturally push the narrative into more absolutist good vs evil.  Even the times they try to grey it up that gets turned into a fall (Fuck the Yuuzhan Vong stuff, but fuck the fall of Jacen even more... then fuck the stuff set even FURTHER after that even more).

Edit - Not to say the act couldn't result in Darth Darth Binks.  But it would be in response to how he felt after the fact.

[Cotigo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuGJOdyoLo4

Phoenix Wright meets Hatoful Boyfriend meets 19th Century Paris? My attention is gotten.

[Grefter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuGJOdyoLo4

Did you mean this?

[Cotigo]

yeeeeeep

[Anthony Edward Stark]

If you are reading a straight interpretation of the movies, Jar Jar is good in the Lawful Good sense.  Palpatine plays him like a fiddle, Jar Jar is pushing for people to give him absolute Executive power over the republic to fight off a foe that had doggedly refused to back down from peaceful trade sanctions, had escalated a war and was shown to have plans for a weapon of mass destruction (Death Star plans from Attack of the Clones). 

He helps an evil being and while Lucas works in clear cut good and evils, he doesn't really deal in a world where you nebulously become more evil just by associating with evil people (these evil people will subtly push you to fall though of course...).  While there is no doing bad things for good reasons, doing good/evil things is also an active choice you make.

Yuuuuuuuup.  This applies both to Jar-Jar Binks and George Lucas: do not ascribe to malevolence what is more obviously incompetence.  George Lucas didn't make three terrible Star Wars movies because he wanted to shit all over things people liked.  He legitimately thought and still thinks these movies are good.  With Jar-Jar, he is literally too stupid to be evil.  That is why Palpatine selects him as his puppet in the same way you might trick a small child into doing something.  Lenny just wanted to pet the Republic and he petted it too hard.

I can assure you that I'm not an obsessive fan, at least when it comes to Star Wars.  I've seen each movie exactly once.  I didn't even hate the prequels when I first watched them, which I'm pretty sure is a requirement for being an obsessive Star Wars fan....

I meant more the people cooking these theories up.

[Cotigo]

Following up on all that, I'm buying into the theory more because it is so much cooler than what's just stated outright in the text, which y'all have made a pretty convincing argument that that is probably Lucas actually wanted. Screw the author's intentions, I like the idea.

EDIT: Also, since I never followed up, re: George Lucas not having balls as a storyteller. I meant that more in that George Lucas's guiding light in many of the decisions that he made was not in what would make the most interesting, thought provoking story, but instead what would sell the most toys. That's not storytelling balls. That's opportunist capitalism balls. Yeah, Darth Vader being Luke's father was probably pretty shocking at the time, but that's also a twist that doesn't exactly hurt toy sales. If anything, it probably drives them.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

EDIT: Also, since I never followed up, re: George Lucas not having balls as a storyteller. I meant that more in that George Lucas's guiding light in many of the decisions that he made was not in what would make the most interesting, thought provoking story, but instead what would sell the most toys. That's not storytelling balls. That's opportunist capitalism balls. Yeah, Darth Vader being Luke's father was probably pretty shocking at the time, but that's also a twist that doesn't exactly hurt toy sales. If anything, it probably drives them.

That's also why Obi-Wan shows up as a ghost to guide Luke on Hoth and appears to deliver exposition on Dagobah that Yoda could just have easily given.  It's why the Rebellion suddenly has a massive fleet with new fighters and capital ships in Jedi.  Hell, it's why Han Solo doesn't die at the end of Empire like Kasdan originally wrote, and instead just kind of floats through Jedi with no real clear goals.  It's why there's a kajillion Jedi in the Prequels who have no real role in the story.  It's why Padme wears a different weird outfit in every scene.  It's likely the entire reason that Samuel L. Jackson is in the movie.

[NotMiki]

Han was supposed to kick the bucket?  That's a little surprising.  Not for its own sake but because Leia and Luke going to rescue him sets such a good foundation for the rest of Return of the Jedi, giving Luke an opportunity to show what being a Jedi is all about before having his confrontation with Vader/Palpatine.

[SnowFire]

It's why the Rebellion suddenly has a massive fleet with new fighters and capital ships in Jedi.  Hell, it's why Han Solo doesn't die at the end of Empire like Kasdan originally wrote, and instead just kind of floats through Jedi with no real clear goals.  It's why there's a kajillion Jedi in the Prequels who have no real role in the story.  It's why Padme wears a different weird outfit in every scene.  It's likely the entire reason that Samuel L. Jackson is in the movie.

Hmm, I dunno.
A) On Han.... See NotMiki.  Really??  That's interesting if so, do you have a link / source?  Having him frozen seemed pretty darn dark as is, sets up the first half of Return of the Jedi, and also gives a solid excuse to involve Lando in the plot.  I can maybe see killing Han off in Return of the Jedi (like Harrison Ford apparently wanted), and that'd even be the right call for a darker "more adult" Star Wars, but eh, having him as window dressing is okay, too.  Not every character needs a plot arc.  Additionally, it'd be a real downer if there's a quest to save Han, then he dies shortly afterward.  (The Matrix sequels have this problem.  Don't ask me to get invested in saving Trinity if you're just going to kill her off anyway.  One of the rare times this kind of plot arc can work is if Our Hero has to kill the person they rescued themself - I'm thinking Lawrence of Arabia here, basically.  But that ain't Star Wars.)
B) Jedi in the prequels who exist just to be in the background & have names seems fine, actually.  This is supposed to be an era where Jedi are more common.  So...  make 'em more common.  But you probably don't want to tell an ensemble story, so you can't actually spend much time to develop them without risk of derailing the main plot.  Lucas would prove adept at derailing the main plot anyway, but I'll give him this one.
C) The weirder thing is more that this giant Rebellion fleet didn't exist in the 1st & 2nd movies, honestly.  This is supposed to be the Galactic Civil War, not the "stamp out bandit raiders" campaign.  It's something I'm vaguely worried about for the sequel trilogy, actually - I'm worried they think there was a backlash to Jedi working "for the man" in the prequels, and will contort the story to be outnumbered freedom fighters vs. a vast military rather than a throwdown between two equally matched forces.

[Grefter]

Jedi without Han rescue honestly could just be like 30 minutes shorter without much change other than a bunch more Billy D. Williams...

[Cmdr_King]

The main source for Harrison Ford on the matter is the big Star Wars documentary, Empire of Dreams.  It's been many many years since I watched it so I forget what exactly Kasdan's position was on it, but my recollection is that both he and Ford pushed for it and Lucas shot them down.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Han was supposed to kick the bucket?  That's a little surprising.  Not for its own sake but because Leia and Luke going to rescue him sets such a good foundation for the rest of Return of the Jedi, giving Luke an opportunity to show what being a Jedi is all about before having his confrontation with Vader/Palpatine.

If you listen to the Star Wars Minute Podcast, they do a very interesting rundown early in their RotJ era (during the opening crawl?) where they discuss the different iterations that the movie was going to go through.  They sourced their information from a number of different interviews and such, and I generally regard their expertise on the subject of behind-the-scenes Star Wars stuff pretty highly.

Jedi was originally going to be JUST Luke and Leia where Luke goes on a quest to confront Vader personally while Leia leads a Rebel commando group, first to (I think) infiltrate the Empire's capital world and take the Emperor prisoner, but that changed to infiltrating the place where the new Death Stars were being built and sabotage it before they could come online.  Harrison Ford then agreed to come back which necessitated a full rewrite of the entire plot, but they never really came up with anything for Han to DO.

C) The weirder thing is more that this giant Rebellion fleet didn't exist in the 1st & 2nd movies, honestly.  This is supposed to be the Galactic Civil War, not the "stamp out bandit raiders" campaign.  It's something I'm vaguely worried about for the sequel trilogy, actually - I'm worried they think there was a backlash to Jedi working "for the man" in the prequels, and will contort the story to be outnumbered freedom fighters vs. a vast military rather than a throwdown between two equally matched forces.

X-Wings are real, real good and the Galactic Civil War was, until the very end, a campaign of asymmetrical warfare.  The rebels had corvettes and shit but you need an enormous infrastructure to maintain Star Destroyers.

[Hunter Sopko]

C) The weirder thing is more that this giant Rebellion fleet didn't exist in the 1st & 2nd movies, honestly.  This is supposed to be the Galactic Civil War, not the "stamp out bandit raiders" campaign.  It's something I'm vaguely worried about for the sequel trilogy, actually - I'm worried they think there was a backlash to Jedi working "for the man" in the prequels, and will contort the story to be outnumbered freedom fighters vs. a vast military rather than a throwdown between two equally matched forces.

X-Wings are real, real good and the Galactic Civil War was, until the very end, a campaign of asymmetrical warfare.  The rebels had corvettes and shit but you need an enormous infrastructure to maintain Star Destroyers.

Yeah. At best, the Rebels had those Nebulon-B frigates you see at the end of Empire in the early days. It took a while for them to sway entire planets to their cause, and it was mostly due to the Empire's human bias violently repressing non-human species (Hence Bothan spies, Mon Calamari shipbuilding, etc). Even then, the Mon Calamari cruisers you see at the end of Jedi are actually converted civilian ships, except for Home One, I believe.