Season 41, Week 5 - Gades vs. Kharg. Elfboy dies of brain anneurysm.

[InfinityDragon]

No. Let's be very clear about this. It's non-elemental because it's not an element at all. This is not semantics in the slightest.

Define, then, what "elemental" means. Next, define what "non-elemental" means without using a negative (or other related qualifier) in the definition.

What you're doing is very much semantics. You're calling it elemental/non-elemental for the sake of calling them that without actually looking at the underlying principles. I'll address this in more detail if you care to indulge in my exercise above (just so I know we're on the same page).

The concept of non-elemental exists. It's a concept, not an element.

As a concept, sure it does. Shadows are also concepts, but that doesn't mean they actually exist.

Like I said, I'll address this more in detail if you do that little exercise above.

Actually, yes it is.

Only if you want it to be.

Actually, yes it is....[lot's of pointless and absurd tests that result in absurd results]

Let's throw out a bunch of irrelevant brightline rules than nobody in this topic has advocated for the purposes of obfuscating a very simple principle! Or see my point above that you're only confusing yourself by overthinking a very simple concept (this could very well be on accident!).

There is no clear line. And that's the beginning of potential difficulties.

Who ever said there needs to be a clear line? An adaptable "test" is much more workable. The principle behind the DL is one character's powers and abilities pitted against another's, right? I believe that's what you said, more or less. All you need to do to see if the parts to a multipart boss are legal is to determine if the part is patently derived from the boss's powers/abilities, or comes from something else.

There is a thing called common sense...you've heard of it, yes? Is Ard solely some manifestation of Liz's power? No? Then he's clearly not going to be considered a part of Liz. Let's try an equally obvious example--Zophar's arms. Using common sense, are they patently a part of Zophar? I should hope most people think so, they're connected to him, after all, and there's nothing to support a conclusion that they're independent organisms. A more difficult example--Melfice's parts. While they aren't a per se part of Melfice's inherent powers/abilities, we've decided that a character's powers/abilities also include their equipment, and common sense tells us that the Sword and Regenerator are Meflice's equipment, thus they should be allowed.

Seriously, it's not that hard to apply unless you want to draw a bunch of useless inflexible lines instead of using the classic "stink test."

While I'm sure we all admire your confidence, to call the fact that people struggle with this "crap" is showing a hell of a lot of disrespect to your fellow voters.

Calling an argument unsound, or "crap" in the vernacular I was using, is not disrespectful. If someone takes that personally, then they shouldn't have. Disrespect would be insulting the person instead of the argument (which I admittedly did do with the cyanide cookies statement, since there's no reason to respect blatant hypocrisy).

Oh? But we're already drawing arbitrary lines, allowing Jenna's support but not Lezard's or Liz's or Sarah's.

You're the one drawing lines, not me.

Why not draw some more?

Go for it. Meanwhile I'll eat popcorn and enjoy the hilarious results.

[SageAcrin]

The existance of FF7 Gravity-elemental physicals mean FF7 Gravity attacks are not Gravity elemental, but physical. Period.

Which is false. Attacks like Super Nova are percentage attacks that doesn't associate itself with gravity element. Gravity element all use pecentage type damage, but percentage type damage don't always associates itself with gravity. Gravity damage always associates itself with precentage damage, but percentage damage associates itself in other attacks. Gravity immunity only blocks percentage damage if it is associates only with gravity element. The end.

<_< I think you even took my point and expanded on it to a point where a secondary view is that Expel immunity, if it does block Holy, probably doesn't block more traditional Gravity attacks that have a Gravity element.

The point is that single attacks are never the rule, if there's a much larger rule to go by. At least, that's simply logical to me. In FF7's case, it has many "Gravity"-type attacks, many attacks with Gravity as an element, and one attack with Gravity as an element(Elemental+Gravity on a physical) that breaks this rule. So are "gravity"-that is, CHP damage attacks-attacks in FF7 physical?

Of course not.

Anima's Chaotic D. is NOT physical nor non elemental. It uses a uber special element just for itself that is seperated from all other element types. And the ways of damage reduction for this unqiue element is none present in the game itself and penetrates all damage reducing effects other spells adds.

I thought it hit defense, though.

If it doesn't, then it really, really should hit Jenna full blast regardless. (If it does at least it has a case for being comparable to Ragnarok and bla bla etc. whatever not getting into the argument on that end, as I said basically how the argument works before.)

Define, then, what "elemental" means. Next, define what "non-elemental" means without using a negative (or other related qualifier) in the definition.

You can prove something is elemental by seeing if enemies have a resistance, nullification or absorbtion to it. Arguably another special reaction may qualify, but those work for starters.

You can never prove something is non-elemental, per se, because it's simply an attack that lacks this.

Of course...by this logic DDS Almighty's elemental, as it fails the former test.

So therefore it's Almighty elemental.

Anima's Oblivion is not Almighty, Physical(Ignores physical nulling), Fire, Earth, Wind, Force, Ice, Expel, Nerve or Mind, pretty demonstratably in all cases. So it would hit full force anyways.

So actually the entire argument isn't even *relevant*. At least, from the "Does Oblivion blowing through have an argument?" point of view. 'cause it does, and it's fully based in logic regardless if you call it non-elemental or just Unreactive Element. Let's call it Heart elemental. It's cooler that way.

While I was giving it a by based on one boss blocking it and the concept of a boss blocking NE being interesting and it making intuitive sense? This argument, much like Kratos 1 hype and the idea of allowing reasonable you-can-die bosses but not overkill ones, has done wonders for wrecking an interesting boss concept for me. ._.

Edit:

Oh, missed this gem:

Calling an argument unsound, or "crap" in the vernacular I was using, is not disrespectful.

What precisely *is* it then?

A respectful debate stance, whereby you calmly state your disagreeance?

>_> You can't invent new definitions for words, you know. Comparing a argument to fecal matter is indeed disrespectful. I've been really trying to be nice about this argument in general, but fundamentally saying "lol no i'm not" is not a good way to reply to someone calling you on being insulting.

Edit 2:

Though retrospectively you'll use this as an out way to get off on a tangent and stop approaching the main argument, probably.

So it'd be nice if you did not, in fact, reply to that. <_<

[Taishyr]

Because I'm just going to throw in my two cents and weather the fire from there. Might as well.

Godlike

Yuna (FFX) vs Jenna Angel (DDS) - Okay, let's see. First of all, I swear buffs/debuffs on one side or another faded off during the formchange, so Jenna's stuck with form 1 or 2. Form 2 does not start with cores, but she may make one a turn (if she could not recreate them, I'd laugh and pitch them). Yuna does not get Aeons; see ID for part of the reasons; my effective criteria is that they -replace- her hitbar (this wording is suspect. I know. What I mean is that an entity that is not her replaces her own durability), and are not her at all plotwise, AFAICR (they... are incarnations of the Fayth, no? Which means they have their own sentience or will, even if bound to the Summoner. If this is wrong, tell me, but the fact that other Aeons bind the exact same thing makes me inclined to call it a property of the Fayth and not of her).

If you're wondering, yes, this is why I am willing to allow Jenna's cores and not Yuna's summons. This matters little, Yuna's still a powerful Godlike to me and, depending on interp, still takes this match. <_<

So it comes down to Aeonless Yuna vs. Jenna form 1 or 2 w/o starting cores. I am still massively irritable on Yuna's Holy in general and tempted to just rule it non-elemental (okay, as a side note, the argument on this term seems completely silly, I'm not hundred percent convinced either side understands where the other is coming from nor am I sure either side cares from the tone. This is a outsider/perhaps irrelevant opinion, if you think you can prove your point please do so.), but... even if I labeled it Holy I'd still hold it under SMT Expel in general, I think; the idea/concept for the source seems the goddamn same to me and I'm more likely to consider magic in all games to be one part of a coherently translatable whole, not this random stuff where one doesn't match another because name/slight flavor differences, oh no different beings can use this type of element is it not the same?!? ...eh, to me it is. I'm not objecting terribly much to anyone who sees Jenna as not blocking it. But I don't give it to Yuna.

As for why I'd rule it non-elemental... um. one enemy. One ability in the entire game that affects that one enemy in that way. ... Uh. This hardly seems a iron-clad proof of elemental attribute to me; it implies it, yes, but then you have the fact that, yanno, not a single damn thing in the game's setup does anything to it -and- the proof is aftergame? Right. Um, yeah... couldn't it be just a coding flag to turn the spell into a healing effect? This seems equally as possible since the damn thing isn't involved anywhere else. (Sage brought up Fei in chat. Besides the fact that I don't know I'd -allow- his aftergame darkorwhatever skill? I'd apply this same problem to him. Only one monster that does anything regarding this ability, only one ability that hits it? He'd likely have it called non-elemental and then I'd proceed to not care. So! >_>)

So. Aeonless Yuna. I'm going to be nice and call it non-elemental since otherwise she has to resort to her physical, Jenna takes form 2 and just kinda makes this match a no-brainer.

Even with this... mmm. Form 2 Jenna is optimal, Aeonless Yuna has no problem taking form 1 with careful Auto-Life/Holy/Curaga applications, I'm inclined to believe. She wants to immediately cast Auto-Life against form 1, take a Vanity (-Poisonward + Silenceward + Confuseward (chest in Bevelle)) armor allows her to take this gamble. Only Sleep is dangerous, here; Silence/Confuse/Poison would tink turn 1, so there's no good chance an important status lands. She then Holy's. Form 1.5, Bhairava, kill and auto-revive, Yuna Auto-Lifes until a double where she Auto-Life's + hits again. Back to form 1.0, Vanity is likely to hit, but on the whole... mmm, this is where Yuna has problems.

Sleep... Jenna then Debilitates to max and then Vanity's again to try for Mute OR just tries to kill with Ragnarok to kick the Auto-Life off and make her waste a turn there. Charm is also dangerous here... mmm. Maybe Yuna can't kill before Vanity takes its toll; I had forgotten Mute was permament, Auto- wait, Auto-Life. Hm. Did status/buffs carry through Auto-Life, FFX buffs?

Yuna beats form 1, since both Debilitate and Vanity fail to be relevant (I forgot the 65% chance of it actually working in the first place. Woo me?) and the only way she can lose is Dispelling herself -> attack finishing her off. Not likely to happen.

So... Form 2, assuming they don't carry over status on Auto-Life's, versus Jenna. First turn, Yuna Autolifes, Jenna calls out a core and... well. Mmm. Here it gets fun. Jenna hits Yuna with the physical. (Presumably, evasion and all, you know the drill.)

Yuna faces a problem here - she wants to prevent the Cores from gang-beating her up. However, she can't really spare the Holy every round to kill... even though she doubles once ever four rounds, doesn't she. Mmm. Auto-Life -> Holy (core) -> Holy (core) -> Holy (core) -> Holy x2 (core/Jenna) -.... but then she either needs to heal herself or, worse off, recast Auto-Life if she dies in this time. Jenna can, if Yuna doesn't smack the cores (460 HP? I'm inclined to see that as OHKO bait by even a sorely nerfed Holy on general principle. That's sad HP. It can be argued - 90% makes it close to 1/3 PCHP, they have about 1/3 PCHP durability, but I'm giving Yuna benefit of doubt here...) kill her with the actions of all her Cores + herself, Auto-Life or no Auto-Life. Therefore, Yuna wants to kill them... but as soon as Mute lands, Jenna and the cores stall a few rounds and then go all out. (Amusingly, Yuna's high magic Defense works against her here. If she could force Jenna to kill her before she was ready with the cores, she could feasibly Auto-Life and keep going, though... the next time Mute fell it'd be fatal anyway. Huh.)

...this is an insanely awesome match and I pity anyone who doesn't have my interps and thus can't enjoy it properly. >_>


Middle

Peter (SF2) vs Canas (FE7) - Peter against someone with mediocre healing and passable damage... in the same move. Bye, Peter. Nice run.

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9) - ... Yeah, Lani likes me beginning to go easier on mid-game bosses. >_> I need to seriously think this opinion over more, but... mrr. Still not fond of PC temps, but... agh, different plot-based setups, there, and it's all a mess and makes my head hurt and yeah okay go away silly match.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm going to leave aside the ad hominem attacks. They speak for themselves.

Define, then, what "elemental" means. Next, define what "non-elemental" means without using a negative (or other related qualifier) in the definition.

Hmm.

An element is an attribute of an attack, besides a tag that governs the defence it hits, that allows opponents to modify the damage the attack does.

That's an incomplete definition for a variety of reasons, but it definitely works as a general idea.

Therefore an "elemental" attack has at least one element attached. A "non-elemental" attack has none.

To take an example from FF6:

-The Quake spell has an element, Earth. This allows enemies who absorb earth to be healed from it, and enemies weak to it to take double damage to it. It is an elemental attack.

-The Merton spell has two elements, Fire and Wind. Both the Fire resistance and the Wind resistance of the enemy will be checked when determining its damage. It is also an elemental attack.

-The Ultima spell has no elements. No "elemental resistance" properties of the enemy will be checked when dealing damage. Therefore, Ultima is a non-elemental attack.

And to finish with one from DDS, of course:

-The Megido spell has an element, Almighty. It allows enemies (Jenna) to reduce its damage specifically. It is an elemental attack.

While they aren't a per se part of Melfice's inherent powers/abilities, we've decided that a character's powers/abilities also include their equipment, and common sense tells us that the Sword and Regenerator are Meflice's equipment, thus they should be allowed.

Oddly, my common sense tells me that the Regenerator is clearly Valmar; what the fuck is a Regenerator otherwise? And now we start going around in circles.

And with Zophar, I don't think I need to mention this, but some of the arms are debated to be part of Lucia's power instead, etc.

(I'm not even trying to argue about Melfice or Zophar specifically, just showing how easily the grey creeps in.)

Similarly, for Jenna, how do you know the cores aren't other entities she is calling in? It's not a stretch at all that they're at least as separate from her as aeons are.

(they... are incarnations of the Fayth, no? Which means they have their own sentience or will, even if bound to the Summoner. If this is wrong, tell me, but the fact that other Aeons bind the exact same thing makes me inclined to call it a property of the Fayth and not of her)

They're a fusion of an idea from the fayth, but physically they are constructed by the summoner's pyrefly manipulation. You might say the fayth gives the summoner a blueprint for the aeon, and the summoner builds it. Alternatively, the fayth designs a sword, and the summoner builds and wields it. We would allow that sword in the DL, wouldn't we?

The aeon the summoner builds does have some sentience, yes. But it appears to be entirely bound to the summoner's will, at the same time. Never in the entire game does an aeon turn on its summoner nor even ignore its commands a la an overlevelled pokemon. This despite Seymour being a real scumbag whom his mother (Anima's fayth) wants stopped.

The aeon is very much a product of its summoner's power - both plot and gameplay back this up. Certainly it is a product of the fayth's power, too (see final aeons being stronger than regular aeons), as there is a fusion aspect to it, but generally speaking (Ryu, Yuri), we allow such fusions. As with Ryu and Yuri, Yuna has a special power that lets her do what she does, and like them, her own personal version of the power furthermore matters - Yuna's Valefor is a heck of a lot more powerful than Isaaru's or Donna's because she herself is a much stronger summoner.

[BaconForTheSoul]

Is Ard solely some manifestation of Liz's power? No? Then he's clearly not going to be considered a part of Liz.

Okay, we have to allow Kefka the little 11 part boss before him.  This boss is obviously a manifestation of his power.  The statues are already gone, but he created these nonetheless, meaning they are part of him the same way orbs would be?  Sure, Kefka isn't dick enough to make you fight them all at the same time, but clearly they are a "manifestation of Kefka's power."

No DDS for me obviously, but as I understand it these orbs aren't actually parts of Jenna, she just summons them to hang out around her?  If this is true then Kefka should summon all of his friends before you fight him.  Sure, in game you don't fight them all at once, but that doesn't mean that Kefka doesn't summon them with his own power.  Also, it's all one fight since you don't heal between fights.  (Different fighters replace dead ones, but this is not healing in any form.)  I believe that the ugly 9 part boss is simply part of Kefka, since why would he waste his power creating something that isn't him.  Hell, he'd have fought you WITH his goons had he not had to use his mind to control them. (OMG HE'S YUNA!)

Soo umm... realistically, Jenna one only had 2 shots of good damage someone said?  Why can't Yuna just stall against Jenna 1 to get every one of her Aeons overdrive, or was the argument that Jenna 2 could beat 7 overdrived Aeons?

[Meeplelard]

Nitpicking comment to Mep: Actually, the Tiers total only 9 parts, not 11.  3 for the first tier (Face, Short Arm, Long Arm), 4 for the second (Hit, Tools, Magic and Tiger), 2 for the last (Sleep and Girl.)  This doesn't really change your point, granted, but felt like randomly correcting that!

(if Tier 4 counts, that being Kefka himself, that's 10 parts! <_<;)

Anyway, to Snowfire...

Yuna vs. Myria comes down to whether you actually respect Myria's accuracy or not.  Its a shakey case given BoF1 doesn't have any true evasion stat, though enemies CAN miss naturally; Myria typically never does unless hit with Idle, which hits accuracy pretty hard in general.  If Myria hits, she has a pretty clean OHKO on Yuna, and its hard to say Yuna > Myria in Speed (Myria's speed is 215 in BoF1; Karn, who has game best speed by a fair amount, in a game whose speed curve is by no means meager, has only 160~, to give you an idea.  Yuna's 120%~ Speed, IIRC)

As for Yuna vs. Kefka?  Kefka has 190% accuracy, a physical that overkills PCs WHO ARE IN THE BACKROW through Havok Wing, and 72 speed in a game where hitting 40 isn't easy.  He's got a pretty decent argument to just go first and outright slaughter Yuna, but it comes down to interps (do you see Kefka's accuracy as good enough?  Additionally, you have to not be of the opinion that FF6 Speed = No (for the record, its not a complete junk stat despite some claims; it also determines how much your ATB Gauge starts the battle with, with some randomization involved, despite claims that FF6 starts every fight with randomized scores.  The game will start the gauges in a manner that the faster PCs usually go first, so no claiming that its a completely BS stat that should mean nothing)

Both have legit arguments, in any event.

And for the most part, in Godlike, being faster than Yuna tends to mean you win.  There are very few Godlikes who aren't faster than Yuna who can't stop her in some way before she gets a turn.

Here's a list of examples:
NOTE: The below is assuming somewhat reasonable interps, in that while I might not believe in them (or others), the argument is still reasonable enough to pass off as a win.  Again, interps can change a match, but there's obviously a fine lines between "Wins regardless of Interps" "Wins under most interps" and "needs a bunch of judgment calls to win."

Orlandu: Goes first, OHKOs.  I don't see how you get the idea that he doesn't.  In fact, his raw Power set up (Twisted Headband + Power Sleeve; this hits his HP hard, mind) can scrape a OHKO to average opponents IIRC, let alone someone frail to physicals like Yuna, and he ignores evade, so that's not saving her.  Its hard to argue that Orlandu's argument for winning isn't reasonable.

(why did Orlandu lose to Tir? Tir's a lot more durable to physicals than Yuna, enough that a move that is a shakey OHKO to average wouldn't KO someone like him.  Above average Defense and good HP is a big step up compared to Yuna's game worst defense and 2nd worst HP)

Rika and Tir: Goes first, IDs Yuna.

Kefka and Myria: Already covered.

Sephiroth: Faster (150% average speed, IIRC?), OHKOs Yuna with his physical (which has 255% accuracy, so it kind of scoffs off evasion.)  Even if you take FF7's average HP at 9999, I think this still might OHKO Yuna as her physical durability is pretty bad, but could be overselling Seph's physical damage some.

Belial: At worst, she has the 4D Pocket arguments.  Other options include hurling 2 Tank Drops and KOing with that (I might be overselling her damage though; keep forgetting how good it is), or trying to sit behind Distortion, forcing only Bahamut to be able to attack her with any consistency (this strategy has a flaw in that if Belial can't kill Aeons fast enough, they unleash and overdrive and completely wreck her, but the option is still there dpeending on interps)

Timelord: Goes first due to Overdrive, uses Griffith SCratch 7 times, should be enough to kill Yuna.


Not sure how many other duelers are faster than Yuna in Godlike, but...as you can see, all the ones I can think of offhand have at least some sound argument for winning.

You have to remember what division Yuna's in.  Godlike is *NOT* a division where you can get by on one strong stat.  Typically, these speedsters are in Godlike cause they have other factors on their side and speed only helps support their case.

[Talaysen]

Regarding non-elemental stuff:

So if you say non-elemental is the lack of an element?  What about physicals?  Are those "physical element"?  Then why isn't "non-elemental" called "magic element"?  It's the same idea.

On the other hand, if physical attacks are never resisted/immuned/etc., are they now "non-elemental physical" attacks?

I'd argue that the term "non-elemental" was created to just indicate a "basic magic" attack.  This does not mean enemies can't resist, immune, or be weak to it, even if it is unlikely.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On the other hand, if physical attacks are never resisted/immuned/etc., are they now "non-elemental physical" attacks?

Yes. Non-elemental physicals arent a new idea at all. Ramza attacking with an Iron Sword is a non-elemental physical, Ramza attacking with an Ice Brand is an ice-elemental physical.

[Shale]

Uh...physical attacks are by default non-elemental from where I stand. Some abilities/weapons/systems assign an element to them (PS4 weapons, CC innates, SH "Edge" spells, etc), and those that don't are...not elementally affiliated, hence "non-elemental."

[BaconForTheSoul]

Calling physicals non-elemental doesn't mean that something that immunes physical also immunes non-elemental damage.  If you consider physical non-elemental you have to consider non-elemental magic a completely different form of non elemental attack. 
Flare/Attack in FFX are in no way/shape/form the same damage type even though they're both non-elemental.

Also Meep, not sure why I said 11 initially, changed it to the correct 9 later in the post.  The point was that just because a fight is continuous and just because the support is that person's power doesn't mean it's legal in the DL.  Kefka + Minions are clearly a continuous fight and they are clearly a manifestation of his power.  (Again statues dead = those 9 things are his.  New people may join the fight, but the fact that no one gets to heal shows the fight is continuous, you're simply having new people join in the fight because for whatever reason no more than 4 can fight at a time.  Going in with 4 people or having no one die also shows this fight in continous.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Flare/Attack in FFX are in no way/shape/form the same damage type even though they're both non-elemental.

That's because things react different to physical attacks and magical attacks. (e.g. Protect reduces physical damage but not magical). Two things can have the same element (e.g. a lightning spell and an attack from a lightning bow) while hitting different defences and being different damage types.

[Talaysen]

On the other hand, if physical attacks are never resisted/immuned/etc., are they now "non-elemental physical" attacks?

Yes. Non-elemental physicals arent a new idea at all. Ramza attacking with an Iron Sword is a non-elemental physical, Ramza attacking with an Ice Brand is an ice-elemental physical.

Okay.

So if these non-elemental physicals exist, then they CANNOT be reduced by "physical resistance" nor blocked by "physical immunity" because resistance/immunity implies an element, which these physicals don't have?

I am totally not buying this.

[Shale]

.....no. Elemental resistance is on top of a defense stat, not instead of it. The damage from, say, Bolt can be reduced by lightning resistance or magic defense, because it is magic and lightning-elemental. Zap! Whip can be reduced by lightning resistance or physical defense, because it is lightning-elemental and physical. The damage from an Iron Sword can only be reduced by physical defense, because it doesn't have an element. That's all this is.

[Taishyr]

The aeon the summoner builds does have some sentience, yes. But it appears to be entirely bound to the summoner's will, at the same time. Never in the entire game does an aeon turn on its summoner nor even ignore its commands a la an overlevelled pokemon. This despite Seymour being a real scumbag whom his mother (Anima's fayth) wants stopped.

Mrf. See, I understand where you're coming from, and your point here... but the double fact that they do have sentience (however bound) due to them pretty much being the Fayths + the fact that they replace Yuna and company on the battlefield...  yeah. To me, it's not her in any way, I can't allow it. I can see allowing it! But for me the Aeons aren't just a sword but actual pyrefly-made beings. (Before you ask? ...Yeah, I'd consider ranking hype for aeons due to this. ...Probably would vote no on most, but I'd consider it.)

[Meeplelard]

Look, its quite simple.

Attacks have multiple attributes.

Physical vs. Magical is one attribute, what Element it has is another.

Wanna know the difference?

Look at Wugui.

Wugui absorbs all Magic tossed at him.  You can prove its Magic Absorption and not Elemental Absorption since, IIRC, Margarete's Grenade is Non Elemental Magical but gets absorbed.

*HOWEVER*, he doesn't absorb all elements.  Proof? Cast Water Edge from Margarete on Yuri; this makes his physical water elemental and it works like an element, and it still hits Wugui fine (unless I'm mistaking and SH1 is even stupider designed than I thought.)

What's the point?  The point is that Magic in this case is nailing an Absorption, regardless of its nature, even if its Non Elemental, but Elemental Physicals, despite being elemental, go through it fine.

Magic vs. Physical is a completely different monster than "Which Element are you?"

They work similarly, but they aren't identical.  Trying to simplify things into "EVERYTHING IS AN ELEMENT!" is pretty absurd.

That opens up a whole new can of worms such like "OMG! Tir McDohl resists all elemental damage in Suikoden 1! ALL MAGIC IS ELEMENTAL IN THAT GAME! HE THUS HALVES ALL MAGIC DAMAGE!"

...or you know, not.  Just cause Suikoden 1 was stupid and made all its magic damage elemental barring spells cast by Soul Eater itself (Ie spells you never face) doesn't mean Tir gets a free pass to halve all magic damage. 

Yes, some games like BoF4 treat Magic and Physical like its own element, but that felt like simplicities sakes.  You know what else BoF4 does?
They cap the Physical Resistance at 5, which is 75%, instead of 6, which is nulling (I think 7 is only available through the Rings that specifically absorb said element.)  Magic has the same restriction, as does "Ranged" elemental, which is mostly just the way the game handles "Weakness to Arrows!" type ordeal, as its clearly just a branch of physicals.  Meanwhile, traditional elemental damage?  They all go as high as 6, and can be nulled entirely.

Furthermore, every attack in BoF4 has one of Physical, Magical, or Ranged attribute.  Not every attack has one of Fire, Water, Wind or Earth (the 4 elements of that game.) 

Before you bring them up, SMTs are an exception and they have screwed up elements all over the place, as was noted.  And as I've pointed out in the past, the way Reflect Magic seems to work in Persona 1 is cause its more "Reflect these specific elements!" which happens to cover all Magic IN ADDITION to a few specific physicals (Almighty also happens to fall under those elements.)  At least, that's what I theorize; Sage, OK, or any Persona nut, feel free to verify/disprove this by showing a TRULY non Elemental Magic attack that hits Reflect Magic (again, stuff like Nuke is not Non Elemental; its Almighty, or Nuke Elemental or whatever they called it in that game, it effectively was what became Almighty, IIRC.)

So in short, Elements and Damage Classes are two different attributes of attacks.  Look at Breath of Fire 3's Aura Breath (or whatever Myrmidon's Unique Breath attack is called.)  It ignores all kinds of defenses, resistances like Barrier, and doesn't even run off a logical stat (it runs off Ryu's CHP)...yet its still Holy Elemental and thus hits weakness/resistance to it.  Its rare that attacks are Non Typed but Elemental (well, many would classify this as a "Breath Attack" which is its own little monster, but that's an aside), but they exist.

[Niu]

<_< I think you even took my point and expanded on it to a point where a secondary view is that Expel immunity, if it does block Holy, probably doesn't block more traditional Gravity attacks that have a Gravity element.

And this is an argument I am fully supportive of. Nothign wrong with it. And looking expel eleemnt as an entirety in SMT tradition, it does not block traditional gravity looks mroe correct.

And percentage damage is not physical in FF7, it has fundementall nothing to do with physical based amage in a fundemental sense. It does not check atk or def which a physical does when it does damage. The damage it does is base on its own scale. But when it is attached to a physical move, it might subject to the check of evade and such like a physical attack would do. But specifcl yon the damage dealt, it is handled entreily different from a normal attack. If you need an comparison, in term sof FF7, the percentage damage is much similiar to a HP1 attack.

Basically, if you have percentage resistence, you block any percentage typed damage whether it is sattached to a phsyical or a gravity spell. If you only have gravity resistence, than you only block perentage damage attached to gravity. And if there are gravity damage that is not percentage based, gravity resistence block it as well.

As for Chaotic D, it is not ITD, thus it hits defence. But it penetrates all additional defnce property like paper. BTW, that property is considred an elemental property, not a property of the attack itself.

[InfinityDragon]

An element is an attribute of an attack, besides a tag that governs the defence it hits, that allows opponents to modify the damage the attack does.

Yup, I had a feeling this is what you meant by "elemental." To you, it's essentially a modifier on top of the base damage type (and thus, a non-elemental attack is an attack that lacks this modifier). To me, "element" implies exactly the term means, the basic component(s) of the attack (thus non-elemental is an impossibility, an attack MUST have some type, otherwise it by definition cannot exist).

The problem with your interpretation is this: if the "element" is not the base damage type, then what is? Physical or magical damage? Except Physical and Magical are considered "elements" in MANY games, so it obviously cannot be that (what happens when the non-elemental FF6 physical hits Fou Lu's elemental resistance to Physical damage, for instance?).

It's not necessarily a wrong interpretation, by any means, it's just significantly less parsimonious than other ones.

Oddly, my common sense tells me that the Regenerator is clearly Valmar; what the fuck is a Regenerator otherwise? And now we start going around in circles.

Which is just a valid an interpretation, and nobody will (or should) jump on your back for it. The point is, it's not hard to interpret multipart bosses if you just use common sense. You're conflating that with the difficulty of achieving consensus among voters, which is an entirely different issue.

And with Zophar, I don't think I need to mention this, but some of the arms are debated to be part of Lucia's power instead, etc.

Again, you're confusing personal interpretation of multipart bosses with achieving consensus among voters on what is legal. Entirely different problems. People have different world views.

Yes, there's an argument that two of Zophar's arms aren't legal. A common sense counter argument would be that abilities gained from stealing powers elsewhere tend to be allowed, otherwise Kefka gets relegated back to his Narshe form, etc. Anyways, that's getting off on another tangent. The point is, using plain common sense will give you a defensible argument regardless of the ultimate decision you make in interpreting multipart bosses. You don't need voter consensus to do this.

Similarly, for Jenna, how do you know the cores aren't other entities she is calling in? It's not a stretch at all that they're at least as separate from her as aeons are.

Simply put, the evidence is greater in Jenna's favor. There is absolutely NO evidence that the Cores are separate entities (as opposed to say Yuna's Aeons or the 4 elemental runes that the True Wind Rune Incarnation uses); there IS evidence that they are somehow an extension of Jenna's power (she's the one who summons them, Cores do not summon themselves; the cores directly affect her defensive abilities implying some type of connection; etc...).

The aeon is very much a product of its summoner's power - both plot and gameplay back this up. Certainly it is a product of the fayth's power, too (see final aeons being stronger than regular aeons), as there is a fusion aspect to it, but generally speaking (Ryu, Yuri), we allow such fusions. As with Ryu and Yuri, Yuna has a special power that lets her do what she does, and like them, her own personal version of the power furthermore matters - Yuna's Valefor is a heck of a lot more powerful than Isaaru's or Donna's because she herself is a much stronger summoner.

The problem is, going back to your equipment analogy, Aeons are not unique and specific to each Summoner; they are shared. Yes, Yuna is a better summoner than Donna and thus summons a more powerful incarnation of the Aeon...unless Donna already has that Aeon summoned. Yuna can never, ever, in a million years, summon an Aeon that another summoner is using. We don't allow equipment to be used if 2+ characters have a claim to if only one piece of that equipment exists (see e.g. letting non-Orlandu characters use Excalibur). If you're likening Aeons to equipment, then they shouldn't be an exception.

Oh, and the only Ryu who might be argued to have "fusions" would be Ryu4, and that would only be for Wyvern, Knight, Mammoth, and Punk (only Punk matters from that list, to boot).

[BaconForTheSoul]

Shouldn't Yojimbo, Magus 3, and Anima all be allowable for Yuna then even by your standards?

Magus 3 only Yuna gets.  The game doesn't outright say this, but the other summoners give up pre Calm Lands, they don't have the required items to get to Magus 3, and I doubt they can own chocobos etc.

Yojimbo hires himself out to her, all the other summoners have already given up, again no evidence supporting anyone else using.

Anima goes to Yuna and Seymour, but umm Seymour dies so she's the only summoner who can use Anima.

This means that all 3 of these are "Unique" to Yuna and that no one else in the world will ever have them summoned.

[Meeplelard]

Technically, Mep, Magus Sisters belongs to Belgimene (or whatever her name was.)

No, I don't just mean cause she summons it.  Its a pretty logical extension considering the temple of its Fayth is the Remiem Temple and all that.

Granted, she also used Anima and Yojimbo, but that just felt like a cheap Gameplay excuse of "Lets make a way for Yuna to dual ALL Aeons somehow!"   Magus Sisters feels genuinely like hers.

(I seem to recall Niu saying how actually, all Aeons were a "Final Aeon", but they're all either failures at defeating Sin (like Belgimene, who admits to having faced Sin and lost), or the Summoner just never fought Sin despite receiving the Final Aeon (See Seymour, who we know got as far as Yunalesca, and created a Final Aeon in Anima, but never fought Sin).  Niu, your random plot details from FFX could come in handy here <_<)

[BaconForTheSoul]

Belgimene dies though, basically giving M3 to Yuna IIRC?  Even if lots of people can use something throughout the game, if by the end only Yuna can use it then it's unique to her I'd imagine.

I can't think of a good dying example so I'll make one up!  Let's say General Leo uses a minerva.  Him using a third minerva shouldn't stop Terra/Celes from using theirs because he is dead now.  (I think you can get more anyway, but if 3 people used it I'm not sure how many would consider them legal anymore.)

[Meeplelard]

General Leo would get Umaro Claused anyway due to being unable to change equipment!

I understand your point, just noting that Yuna is technically not the only one who can.

Granted, when you consider there's...what? 5 Summoners in the world, 2 of which are technically dead (Seymour and Belgimene), and the other 2 pretty openly give up (Isaaru and Donna)...yeah...

[InfinityDragon]

This means that all 3 of these are "Unique" to Yuna and that no one else in the world will ever have them summoned.

Nope, as Meep mentioned, Belgemine uses Yojimbo and Anima making them non-unique to Yuna from a gameplay perspective. Magus Three...there's an argument for (from a gameplay perspective, anyways, not so much from plot)...but their AI is horrible, horrible, useless shit making them only useful for a one-shot Grand Summon Delta Attack.

Even if lots of people can use something throughout the game, if by the end only Yuna can use it then it's unique to her I'd imagine.

Let's extend that logic further: at the end of the game, the Aeons are destroyed and Yuna can no longer summon them. This is even made poignant from a gameplay perspective in the final battle against the Aeons.

[InfinityDragon]

Failure browser.

[Meeplelard]

Nope, as Meep mentioned, Belgemine uses Yojimbo and Anima making them non-unique to Yuna from a gameplay perspective.

Yes. Cause what Optional Bosses can do REALLY matter when it comes to factoring in what PCs can use what skills.

[Talaysen]

.....no. Elemental resistance is on top of a defense stat, not instead of it. The damage from, say, Bolt can be reduced by lightning resistance or magic defense, because it is magic and lightning-elemental. Zap! Whip can be reduced by lightning resistance or physical defense, because it is lightning-elemental and physical. The damage from an Iron Sword can only be reduced by physical defense, because it doesn't have an element. That's all this is.

(Quoting this because Meeple's crap is way too long, and Shale summed up the important part faster and shorter.)

So how do we determine if an attack is physical or magical?  By the defense it hits?  Some attacks ignore defense entirely, so that can't work.  By the attack stat it uses?  There are cases where an attack doesn't use an attack stat (I think an FF6 boss had a magic attack that used level for damage or something?  There are other examples but that's the one that comes to mind).

So saying that whether an attack is physical or magical depending on what defense it hits doesn't work too well.  It's a good basis, I suppose, but there ARE physical attacks that use the magic attack stat or hit magic defense (FF12 has these, I believe).

Also, as Meeple said, there CAN be resistance to the "physical element".  BoF4 proves this no matter how much you want to write it off.  SMT3 has it, and there are attacks that use STR and physical defense to calculate damage but don't hit "physical" resistance.  In fact, DDS does the same thing.  Does Jenna's orb now not reflect "non-elemental physical" damage, since it reflects "physical elemental" damage?

At any rate, I wasn't trying to say "physical damage" and "magic damage" are elements.  What I was trying to point out is that "non-elemental physical" attacks are not that much different from "non-elemental magic" attacks, they just hit different defense stats (in general).  HOWEVER, many games have resistances to these "non-elemental physical" attacks.  BoF4 does.  SMT3 does.  DDS does.  I'm not bothering with the rest of the SMT series because they tend to split physical attacks further into slash/pierce/crush/whatever.  However, SMT3 and DDS both have just "physical".  Therefore, it is entirely possible for "non-elemental" magic to be resisted.

But anyway.  I've been wondering why this hasn't come up:

I mentioned this earlier.  Jenna has a core that reflects physical elemental damage.  If you use a physical attack that's not physical element (I think there's a fire-elemental attack?), the core will not reflect it, though the fire one will.  So, therefore, this core doesn't reflect all "physical attacks".

Therefore, it reflects "physical elemental" physical attacks and nothing else.  Now along comes Ramza with his Iron Sword (which is non-elemental supposedly), and just beats Jenna in the face with it.  It's non-elemental, so the core can't reflect it.

Now, does this sound right at all?  It doesn't to me.

Another example, though this one is a bit weird.  Atelier Iris 3 has a boss that resists all magic, but is weak to fire, ice, and lightning (the only elements in the game).  What this corresponds to mechanically is a resistance to "non-elemental" magic and neutral to all elements.  This is further proven by the fact that resisted attacks lower the burst gauge less than neutral attacks (with weaknesses increasing it faster, which elemental damage DOES NOT DO), and the fact that the game SAYS "non-elemental" magic attacks are resisted and elemental attacks are NEUTRAL.  It's a strange way of going through this, but it does prove that an enemy CAN resist "non-elemental" damage independently of other elements.

So, to summarize because my thoughts are probably hard to follow:

Physical "element" is different from physical "damage".  Magic "element" is different from magic "damage".  "Non-elemental" is a misnomer to categorize attacks that are "physical element" or "magic element", generally because the game doesn't LIST an element.  The game may or may not consider it an element, but it IS possible to do so, and some do.

As an aside, I am NOT trying to argue that Almighty is Non-elemental.  That's a different issue entirely.

PS: Jenna v Yuna is the best match evar.