Season 41, Week 5 - Gades vs. Kharg. Elfboy dies of brain anneurysm.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The problem with your interpretation is this: if the "element" is not the base damage type, then what is? Physical or magical damage? Except Physical and Magical are considered "elements" in MANY games, so it obviously cannot be that (what happens when the non-elemental FF6 physical hits Fou Lu's elemental resistance to Physical damage, for instance?).

You can consider Physical and Magical to be elements as well, yes. Some games overtly do (BoF4) as you noted, some games arguably implicitly do. That's fine. Personally I'd see a bit of a line between elements and damage types, and argue that it's possible to resist damage types rather than elements - both are reasonable extensions of the base definition.

However, if an attack is attack is indeed non-elemental physical, that means it's only element, if any, is physical. Not "non-elemental elemental" as you seem to be saying.

Which is just a valid an interpretation

So why isn't throwing out all parts a valid interpretation?

You're conflating that with the difficulty of achieving consensus among voters, which is an entirely different issue.

It's a key issue here, though. If lines are so abitrary that it is impossible to draw them with any consensus, then it feels better to not draw them at all.

there IS evidence that they are somehow an extension of Jenna's power (she's the one who summons them, Cores do not summon themselves; the cores directly affect her defensive abilities implying some type of connection; etc...).

All of those apply to Yuna. Obviously these aren't very strong criteria to you. And your only argument is that there's no evidence against them, which is due to them being entirely plotless.

Forgive me if I'm not impressed at this ironclad argument.

Yuna can never, ever, in a million years, summon an Aeon that another summoner is using.

What?

If that were true, then we'd expect Yuna to constantly find herself unable to summon her aeons for random reasons because somewhere, Isaaru or Donna or Seymour or a gaggle of others is summoning the same one. This never happens, and there's no plot that suggests it would - the definition of an aeon given in the game rather suggests that two Valefors most definitely can be summoned at once, since the pyreflies that make up each are different, and whatever sentience they DO have is clearly separate. (Yuna's Bahamut that protects Yuna in the Via Purifico can't be the same as Isaaru's trying to kill her at its exit.)

It's true that an aeon won't fight a version of itself, but there could be any number of reasons for this. Ones that are more reasonable than handwaving away the fact that Yuna definitely knew she could summon Valefor when she needed at Bevelle, for instance.

Regardless, this is a moot point. Yuna is the only PC who can summon, so she gets the aeon. It doesn't matter that plotwise, someone else CAN use a weapon. There is only one Ghaleon's Sword in the Lunarverse, and it clearly can be used by more than one person (Ghaleon and Hiro), but DL-legally, Hiro gets it, because he's the only PC who can use it gameplaywise. Similarly, Chaz and Elsydeon, Rose and the Dragon Buster, Ryu4 and the Royal Sword/Armour, Alex/Hiro (again!) and Althena's Sword...

Since everyone else is apparently polite enough to let Yuna summon whenever she wants in-game, I'd assume they would do so in the arena too, much like Ghaleon is being polite enough to allow Hiro continued use of his sword now that he's back from the dead.

And,

Let's extend that logic further: at the end of the game, the Aeons are destroyed and Yuna can no longer summon them.

As a general rule the DL ignores everything that happens after the final boss is defeated. No Terra losing magic, Ryu4 giving up his powers, etc.

EDIT: And in case my point wasn't clear, the final boss of FFX is Jecht as far as I'm concerned.

[Luther Lansfeld]

If we are going to have a chunk people who are seriously wanting to vote on Jenna formshifting and giving her orbs then I think we just need to boot her, frankly.

*posts a sign that says DO NOT FEED THE TROLL, moves along*

[Ultradude]

If that were true, then we'd expect Yuna to constantly find herself unable to summon her aeons for random reasons because somewhere, Isaaru or Donna or Seymour or a gaggle of others is summoning the same one. This never happens, and there's no plot that suggests it would - the definition of an aeon given in the game rather suggests that two Valefors most definitely can be summoned at once, since the pyreflies that make up each are different, and whatever sentience they DO have is clearly separate. (Yuna's Bahamut that protects Yuna in the Via Purifico can't be the same as Isaaru's trying to kill her at its exit.)

ID is basing his argument off of the fact that, when you go up against the others summoners in summoning battles, you can't use the Aeon that they just summoned. I'd be inclined to agree, and write off the lack of random "can't summon" as the game developers not wanting you to hate them. Granted, I still allow her to summon, since I'm pretty lenient on summoning in general, but that's where the argument is coming from.

[InfinityDragon]

Personally I'd see a bit of a line between elements and damage types, and argue that it's possible to resist damage types rather than elements - both are reasonable extensions of the base definition.

See, this is the semantics I was talking about. You're calling one thing "elements" and the other "types." What is the functional difference? There isn't one. The base damage "type" of physical in BoF4 is rolled completely into and collapsed into the physical "element"--there is no difference. You can't rely strictly on "what stat does this hit/what stat is the damage derived from" as the definition. Keeping with the BoF4 example, Oracle deals physical elemental damage using Wisdom as the base stat and Aura Smash deals physical elemental damage without touching any defensive stats.

Yes, you can create assumptions to get around this, but this makes your view less parsimonious, as I mentioned earlier.

However, if an attack is attack is indeed non-elemental physical, that means it's only element, if any, is physical. Not "non-elemental elemental" as you seem to be saying.

Yes, but if we take your view, without any added assumptions, then FF6 physicals (which do not have any innate modifiers that I'm aware of) should bypass Fou Lu's physical resistance. After all, no enemy modifies or reduces the damage in FF6, so why should Fou Lu resist it? (If I'm wrong about FF6 physicals, the point remains, just replace it with an example that fits)

It's a key issue here, though. If lines are so abitrary that it is impossible to draw them with any consensus, then it feels better to not draw them at all.

Which begs the question, why is consensus a key issue?

You're also grossly overestimating how chaotic it would be, but that's a moot point.

All of those apply to Yuna. Obviously these aren't very strong criteria to you. And your only argument is that there's no evidence against them, which is due to them being entirely plotless.

Yuna also has a plethora of plot and gameplay issues that cut against those factors, which I've gone over time and time again; Jenna doesn't. The fact that Jenna's Orbs are plotless is a strawman.

As a general rule the DL ignores everything that happens after the final boss is defeated. No Terra losing magic, Ryu4 giving up his powers, etc.

You're trying to argue a completely sarcastic point I made? Uh, sure, okay. Have fun!

If that were true, then we'd expect Yuna to constantly find herself unable to summon her aeons for random reasons because somewhere, Isaaru or Donna or Seymour or a gaggle of others is summoning the same one.

You meet...three live summoners the entire game, and you travel the entirety of Spira. This is not a gaggle (for this, among other reasons relating to the definition of the word).

It's true that an aeon won't fight a version of itself, but there could be any number of reasons for this. Ones that are more reasonable than handwaving away the fact that Yuna definitely knew she could summon Valefor when she needed at Bevelle, for instance.

Uh, no. The simplest explanation is that one being cannot be summoned to two places simultaneously.

Why wouldn't Yuna know she could summon Valefor? You know you can't summon Bahamut against Isaaru's when he summons Bahamut, why would it be any different in the cutscene?

Regardless, this is a moot point. Yuna is the only PC who can summon, so she gets the aeon. It doesn't matter that plotwise, someone else CAN use a weapon.

Except it's not just plot. Gameplay also allows Donna and Isaaru to summon some Aeons; Ghaleon might equip his sword plotwise, but there is no indication that he does from a gameplay perspective.

*posts a sign that says DO NOT FEED THE TROLL, moves along*

I R T3H TRLL. FED ME PLX.

In all seriousness, nobody is trolling; a debate that does not involve or interest you does not equal trolling.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yes, you can create assumptions to get around this, but this makes your view less parsimonious, as I mentioned earlier.

Fair enough, we'll assume Physical and Magical are elements from here on in - the distinction is indeed semantic.

Tell me how this makes Oblivion Almighty. Or indeed, how an attack can not be non-elemental - all you've done is added two or three new elements into games' repertoires, not rule out the possibility that an attack can lack any of them.

Uh, no. The simplest explanation is that one being cannot be summoned to two places simultaneously.

Then why do we never see any evidence of this in plot? Why is this point never mentioned? It seems like it'd be pretty important. It's made pretty clear that summoners make use of their aeons on a regular basis on pilgrimmages. And I can't imagine Donna not bitching about Yuna summoning her aeons if there was a competition there, given her personality.

No, even simpler explanations do exist. Since there is absolutely nothing that suggests a contest over aeon summoning can occur at a distance, it's more likely, for instance, that two summoners can not summon the same aeon if they are near each other. (Perhaps because pyreflies would respond poorly to two nearby summoners both saying "Form Ifrit", but that's pure speculation.)

You meet...three live summoners the entire game, and you travel the entirety of Spira.

I suppose you believe Luca only has thirty residents, then.

RPGs have lots of characters you don't see, and since Donna and Issaru aren't known by name until they introduce themselves, I don't believe summoners are so rare as to there being only three in the world.

You know you can't summon Bahamut against Isaaru's when he summons Bahamut, why would it be any different in the cutscene?

Seems pretty risky to take a suicide drop hoping that none of the other summoners call Valefor while you are in the middle of it. Even if you believe Yuna is daring enough for it, I can't believe one of her guardians wouldn't have berated her for it afterwards.

Side note, for what it's worth: You can summon aeons against their corresponding dark aeon, but I'm not fully clear on dark aeon plot. It's worth very little, being an excuse for superbosses, granted. (Though the same is true for Belgemine possessing the Magus Sisters and Anima.)

Except it's not just plot. Gameplay also allows Donna and Isaaru to summon some Aeons; Ghaleon might equip his sword plotwise, but there is no indication that he does from a gameplay perspective.

Doesn't his sprite hold it? If not, replace him with an example that does. Lloyd and the Dragon Buster is an easy one, and his even is used in gameplay.

But since you're bandying gameplay about: There's never a gameplay restriction on Yuna's summoning (barring circumstances in which her opponent summons the aeon, but that is obviously not coming up in the DL as we don't have Isaaru ranked), so I'm not seeing why you are assuming one in the DL.

[BaconForTheSoul]

As a general rule the DL ignores everything that happens after the final boss is defeated. No Terra losing magic, Ryu4 giving up his powers, etc.

You're trying to argue a completely sarcastic point I made? Uh, sure, okay. Have fun!

You used that sarcastic remark to ignore the question.  Anyone who has any argument for using Yojimbo, Anima, or Magus 3 are dead at the end game.  This should mean that Yuna gets to use them since no one else could EVER have them out.

(Others already mentioned the fact that she not once gets stopped from summoning who she wants except when dueling another Summoner.)  Disallow the first 5 if you want, but I see no reason that you shouldn't allow M3, Anima, and Yojimbo from your own viewpoints.  Granted, as you said, the Magus 3 are incredibly unpredictable, but you can at least count on an OD.  Also, the powerhouse once attacking once for 60k is the most common thing to happen.

[Meeplelard]

Ghaleon holds the sword in several sequences, actually.  For starters, he BLATANTLY POINTS IT AT HIRO right before the fight starts in an FMV ("Now that you've failed in every possible way, blah blah blah HIRO!" is the scene I'm reffering too), and he's blatantly holding the sword in the fight against him.  Think many of his attacks involve him using the sword in some manner (like I believe Meteor Shower actively shows him holding the sword up and it flashes, and I think his basic physical is a simple slash at close range with it, not surprisingly.)

Pretty ridiculous to say "That's not the same sword he gave Hiro!" really.  Lets think about EBC Ghaleon for a second...
He WANTS Hiro to succeed.  That fight was basically a test to see if Hiro had truly given up, and to see if he actually stood a chance against Zophar (if they couldn't beat Ghaleon, then its fruitless to go after Zophar given Zophar is a few levels above Ghaleon in power.)  Furthermore, given how he was living, the best he COULD do is Help Hiro in the most hostile methods possible, given, you know, his life force was dependent on Zophar and if he suddenly did something that was clearly treacherous (like he does after the fight when he openly admits he was pushing for their success), he just fades away as we saw (hence the reason all he did for Hiro was hand him that super Sword, instead of outright helping him firsthand; he flat out couldn't.)

...but that's just getting into EBC plot specifics.  Point is, there's no reason to assume that the Sword Ghaleon uses both in the cutscene AND when he fights Hiro is not the same sword he hands Hiro to defeat Zophar.

Regarding the Summoner thing...
We only see 3 living summoners, and Belgemine, yes.  However, the game implies there are others, as they keep talking about how the Al Bhed is kidnapping summoners and stopping pilgrimages.  Yes, when we finally get to where they are captive, we only see Isaaru and Donna (and Isaaru's Guardians), but I chalk that  up to Square being lazy to create other characters who'd be summoners.  The fact remains, the Al Bhed kidnappings were mentioned happening throughout the game, and they imply they were successful on these occasions (so its not just the few attempts or so they tried on Yuna throughout the game and failed.)

There's also former summoners too, like in the Calm Lands, we meet that one guy whose now an official of Yevon or something.  He apparently was the summoner Wakka and Lulu were working for prior to Yuna, and like most summoners only got as far as the Calm Lands and gave up.

Given all this, and how characters like Dona have only one Guardian at a time, you'd think some of them would be relying heavily on Aeons for protection, and due to this, its logical to assume that there are moments when there are two Valefors being summoned at once.  I can easily buy the theory of "the same Aeon can't be summoned if its already summoned in proximity" or some such...or perhaps its a simple case of "Aeons refuse to fight themselves!" so summoning Bahamut on Bahamut leaves a useless stalemate, thereby making the match pointless, so its "He who summons first gets full Aeon privlages!" or something.

(really, I personally just chalk it up to a game play excuse to keep the idea that you're actually summoning, and you can't have one guy in two places at the same time cause its awkward.  But that's just me.)

Like Elfboy said, Dona's competitive and all, but she only really talks about how Yuna's pathetic in using so many guardians, and is more treating it like a race.  She doesn't do any of this "I'd appreciate it if you stopped using MY Aeons, thus interrupting MY pilgrimage!" or some such.

Its a gray area in any event.  But the only proof that you can't summon 2 of the same Aeon at the same time is a game play based one, which is shakey.

FF Games have always changed the plot of summons, before someone uses a different excuse.  Look at the plot of FF6 Espers, FF8 Guardian Forces, FF4 Summons/Phantom Beasts/whatever they're calling them now, FF9 Eidolons and FF10 Aeons, and they're all completely different.  Yes, you summon them, but how it works is different between games (FF9 Eidolons, for example, were contacted through the use of the Summoner's Horn IIRC (which...apparently still works even if the horn is removed ala Garnet.  This could be Eiko botching facts though...)), and the plot behind them is also different.  No, this doesn't serve much purpose in this debate, I'm just trying to kill any potential branch off arguments before they come out, as FF games are very much inconsistent about summons cause every world is different, etc. so the plot of them changes.

(I purposely left out FF3, FF5, and FF7 in that list above cause Summons are a pure gameplay device that are absolutely plotless, especially in FF7's case.)

The point is, you're adding rules that aren't explicitly stated.  It comes down to the whole "You can't disprove it, therefore its right!" argument.
We aren't getting anywhere with this.  I could argue something as simple as this, however, if you're so bent on "Yuna's Aeons cannot be summoned twice at the same time!"

Yuna, by the end of FFX, is the ONLY TRULY ACTIVE LIVING SUMMONER LEFT.  Isaaru is stuck having to fill in the role of Maester cause he's apparently the best fit, given the turmoil Bevelle is in (or something along those lines), Seymour is dead, and Dona outright states she was thinking about giving up the Pilgrimage.

So...now Yuna's left being the only one with that power, if indeed those are the only summoners in the world (which could very easily not be the case.)  Hey look, its suddenly unique!

You know what this reminds me of?
Ryu3 being the only Dragon with any sort of Power left by the end of BoF3 as far as we know.  Yes, the game mentions Dragons that live underground, but as far as we know, they were all of Ryu's tribe and long since died and he's the only one left (Dauna Mines and such.)  You can say there's more than meets the eye, but that just goes back to speculation based on "You can't disprove it!" and yeah, can of worms.  Otherwise?  Only Dragons left are Ryu, Teepo, and those in Dragnier.
In Dragnier, the only Dragon with power is Jono, holding the Infinity Gene, awaiting the arrival of Ryu.
Eventually, Jono and Teepo are dead, that leaves Ryu with the only one who can use these Genes!

Not seeing how that differs from an Aeon; its a similar (albeit not identical) concept.  In fact, it falls back to the whole uniqueness thing:
Ryu wasn't the only one with the Infinity Gene; Jono CLEARLY used it in order to turn into Elder Dragon.  He openly states he's holding onto the entire power of the Brood (and which is what the Infinity Gene is), so now Ryu can't go Kaiser Dragon in the DL, I suppose, since Jono used the main ingredient.

That argument is pretty ridiculous, in any event.  Trying to justify Gameplay restrictions based off uniqueness of plot.

[Niu]

(I seem to recall Niu saying how actually, all Aeons were a "Final Aeon", but they're all either failures at defeating Sin (like Belgimene, who admits to having faced Sin and lost), or the Summoner just never fought Sin despite receiving the Final Aeon (See Seymour, who we know got as far as Yunalesca, and created a Final Aeon in Anima, but never fought Sin).  Niu, your random plot details from FFX could come in handy here <_<)

I have nothing to add here as you member them correctly.

[InfinityDragon]

Tell me how this makes Oblivion Almighty. Or indeed, how an attack can not be non-elemental - all you've done is added two or three new elements into games' repertoires, not rule out the possibility that an attack can lack any of them.

First, why non-elemental attacks cannot exist:

Something that exists *only* as the negative or absence of something else cannot exist except as a concept.

An attack *must* have a "type" that determines its effects on the target, we can call this type its element. If an attack does not have an element, how do you define it? It cannot be simply Physical or Magical, because those are elements. If you simply say it's the absence of an element, then it has no more existence than a shadow or a vacuum; it will exist as a concept, but does not have any real presence.

Thus, we can say all attacks have an element (or attack type). A non-typed or non-elemental attack cannot exist.

Now, as far as calling "non-elemental/Universal/Almighty damage the same:

A game will enumerate a specific list of attack types...Fire, Water, Lightning, Holy, Dark, whatever. But what about attacks that haven't been given a specific name? We know an attack must have an element or it cannot exist. For the sake of convenience, we call this catchall category "non-elemental" because it is not one of the enumerated elements within the game. This does not mean that such an attack cannot be resisted or strike a weakness (otherwise it fails to be an element), only that most targets have a neutral reaction to it.

(The rest of this argument can really go either way, and I'd be fine with either view)

Now what if a game decides to label this catchall category instead of leaving it unnamed. I'd argue this is what SMT games have done. It's not explicit, but a couple of factors point to this. One, there are no "non-elemental" attacks in DDS1, and the game enumerates many more elements than most other games. Two, Almighty in DDS1 behave extraordinarily like "non-elemental" attacks in other games, to the point where it's a mirror image outside *two* enemies. Since it's possible to resist "non-elemental" attacks, this does not create any contradictions.

The similarities are enough that I'm inclined to see "non-elemental" as striking Almighty resistance. I can also see where the similarities are not enough and you see Almighty as its own element rather than a named catchall. Either argument is valid, it's just a matter of how big a burden must be met.

Then why do we never see any evidence of this in plot?

Maybe the writers decided not to because it's a largely minor point? You're required to fight Donna once and Isaaru once? The rest of the Aeon battles with Belgemine are all optional. Not everything that's in the gameplay needs to be explained in the plot, although it admittedly does make a better argument when something is explained in both.

No, even simpler explanations do exist. Since there is absolutely nothing that suggests a contest over aeon summoning can occur at a distance, it's more likely, for instance, that two summoners can not summon the same aeon if they are near each other.

On the same token, there's also no evidence that an Aeons can be summoned in two places at once, so it's a wash. Lack of evidence for supporting one proposition is not evidence that a different proposition is the correct one. As such, the explanation you give isn't more simple at all.

RPGs have lots of characters you don't see, and since Donna and Issaru aren't known by name until they introduce themselves, I don't believe summoners are so rare as to there being only three in the world.

Yes, but Summoners aren't exactly numerous either. I definitely wouldn't see there being so many Summoners that at least one is engaged in battle every minute of every day. It'd also make the gameplay surrounding summoning Aeons unworkable, as someone mentioned earlier.

There's never a gameplay restriction on Yuna's summoning (barring circumstances in which her opponent summons the aeon, but that is obviously not coming up in the DL as we don't have Isaaru ranked), so I'm not seeing why you are assuming one in the DL.

Because it's one factor that ties in with several others. You don't just look at each factor individually and assess if it applies or doesn't apply; you take all the factors together and make the assessment from there.

You used that sarcastic remark to ignore the question.  Anyone who has any argument for using Yojimbo, Anima, or Magus 3 are dead at the end game.  This should mean that Yuna gets to use them since no one else could EVER have them out.

No, I used sarcasm to illustrate the absurdity of your logic taken to it's full extension. If you want a serious reply...

We take duelers at their "peak," not at some temporal endpoint down the road. That way mid-bosses who died early in the plot are treated as if scaled to end-game (usually), Ryu4 actually has dragon forms, etc. So, we would look at before Donna and Isaaru dropped out of the gameplay completely to see what their gameplay effects are.

Ryu wasn't the only one with the Infinity Gene; Jono CLEARLY used it in order to turn into Elder Dragon.  He openly states he's holding onto the entire power of the Brood (and which is what the Infinity Gene is), so now Ryu can't go Kaiser Dragon in the DL, I suppose, since Jono used the main ingredient.

That's nice and all, except where's the part where Ryu can't go around using Kaiser dragon because someone else is using Infinity?

Oh wait, that doesn't happen. You seem to have missed half of my point.

[Shale]

Something that exists *only* as the negative or absence of something else cannot exist except as a concept.

Black seems to do all right for itself.

[Grefter]

ID you are slipping.  All of the game mechanics are purely conceptual systems, they are not physical entities.


"Something that exists *only* as the negative or absence of something else cannot exist except as a concept."
Also this made me laugh at Ice elemental things as a piece of meta irony.

[InfinityDragon]

Black seems to do all right for itself.

Black is achromatic. It's just a term we use to call the absence of all colors. Just like a shadow is the absence of light or a vacuum is the absence of matter.

ID you are slipping.  All of the game mechanics are purely conceptual systems, they are not physical entities.

Ah, but we assume the game mechanics to be real for the purposes of the DL. Even if we assume all mechanics are real, a truly non-elemental attack would still be impossible.

Also this made me laugh at Ice elemental things as a piece of meta irony.

Ice is solid water. You're thinking of cold, which I don't think any games call an element.

[BaconForTheSoul]

No, I used sarcasm to illustrate the absurdity of your logic taken to it's full extension. If you want a serious reply...

We take duelers at their "peak," not at some temporal endpoint down the road. That way mid-bosses who died early in the plot are treated as if scaled to end-game (usually), Ryu4 actually has dragon forms, etc. So, we would look at before Donna and Isaaru dropped out of the gameplay completely to see what their gameplay effects are.

Okay seriously.  Donna and Isaaru dropped out with the first 5 Aeons.  This still doesn't explain why Yuna wouldn't get Anima/M3/Yojimbo.

Taking duellers at their "peak" means that Seymour takes a dead form.  Only Yuna gets Anima.
At their "peak" no one else had Yojimbo, but Yuna.
The only way this can be argued is saying that Belg at her "peak" had Magus 3!  This was over a decade ago though (I'm assuming she failed against Sin the last time around or longer.)

Even so, Anima and Yojimbo are never used by ANYONE else at their "peaks" unless you begin counting people who died decades ago and aren't in the game.  Luckily enough these are 2 of Yuna's more useful Aeons so she can still smash things with Anima damage!

[Dark Holy Elf]

It's just a term we use to call the absence of all colors. Just like a shadow is the absence of light or a vacuum is the absence of matter.

And just like non-elemental indicates an absence of any other elements. An object can be black (fail to reflect any type of light) just as easily as an attack can be non-elemental (fail to have any elemental attributes).

An attack *must* have a "type" that determines its effects on the target, we can call this type its element.

No, this "type", or possibly "types" (ice physical, fire wind magic, etc.) determines how the target will react to it. If the attack doesn't care about any properties the target may have (an attack like 1000 Needles, for instance), then it has no need for "types".

Now, as far as calling "non-elemental/Universal/Almighty damage the same

Hold up a moment.

Near as I can tell, you are using Universal to mean an attack that has no other type. You are ALSO saying that physical and magical are both types, hence Universal attacks are neither physical or magical.

You are arguing that Universal is a type, which is fair, although I don't think I agree in general. You are furthermore saying that both Oblivion (neither physical nor magical) and Almighty are Universal, correct?

But wouldn't that mean that, say, FFX Ultima or Flare, which are Magic (and hence not Universal) are not subject to Jenna's Almighty resistance?

This seems to contradict what you say elsewhere in your posts (though I might be misreading), so if you can resolve what you mean here I'd appreciate it.

Because it's one factor that ties in with several others. You don't just look at each factor individually and assess if it applies or doesn't apply; you take all the factors together and make the assessment from there.

This particular factor (that other summoners can prevent Yuna from summoning an aeon if they aren't actively involved in the fight) is worth less than nothing. It is based both on a pure conjecture from a plot standpoint, has zero gameplay backing, AND contradicts the fact that we allow PCs to use things that at other times in the plot may have been used by another character, usually a boss.

Trying to handwave it away with "it combines with other factors!" is smokescreening, since the factor itself is garbage. And a bunch of garbage factors added up are still garbage. (Alternatively, if the other factors have merits of their own, adding a garbage factor to the mix doesn't make them any stronger.)

So, we would look at before Donna and Isaaru dropped out of the gameplay completely to see what their gameplay effects are.

Much like we look at Lloyd's effects to judge Rose, and say she can't get the Dragon Buster because he still has it at his peak?

What?

If we do indeed judge duellers at their peak (EDIT: actually, depending on how you define peak, this might make sense, so I'm not going to fight over it), then we judge them at THEIR peak, not at the peaks of other characters.

On the same token, there's also no evidence that an Aeons can be summoned in two places at once, so it's a wash.

Certainly. We don't use "no-evidence" situations to ban something, though. We default to what the gameplay says, which is that Yuna can summon any aeon she wants provided she isn't actively fighting another version of said aeon.

In other words, the burden of proof is on you to show that Yuna's summoning would be interfered with in the DL.

[SageAcrin]

<_< I think you even took my point and expanded on it to a point where a secondary view is that Expel immunity, if it does block Holy, probably doesn't block more traditional Gravity attacks that have a Gravity element.

And this is an argument I am fully supportive of. Nothign wrong with it. And looking expel eleemnt as an entirety in SMT tradition, it does not block traditional gravity looks mroe correct.

Well, I can see that. It's internally self-consistant as an idea, and interesting from a duelling standpoint. It means things like Sephiroth nulling Gra, looking over what you said, and stuff. Which is quirky and different at least.

[Meeplelard]

If we do indeed judge duellers at their peak (which isn't correct; we judge them at their last gameplay appearance, or Marcus needs an upgrade), then we judge them at THEIR peak, not at the peaks of other characters.

Call me nitpicking, but we DO take Magus as his boss form, despite how his last game play appearance is either that really horrible form at North Peak or his PC form (most likely the latter would be taken), which is actually him at his peak, right?

Granted, Magus is a weird case cause he's a bit of an exception due to the whole "Gets his powers drained, thus obviously much weaker!" and then followed up with "Split path form" so you could argue his first form is the most legal of the 3 cause its the only one you are REQUIRED to see; if you played CT once, you'd be forced to miss one form, unless you purposely reset the game to see both.

...Yeah, I'll just stop here.  Point is, there are some precedents to taking duelers at their best, though, it has to be a damned good plot reason for it. Magus getting power drained by Lavos is one good reason, Marcus just simply not improving as much as Eliwood is another.

Granted, now I'm wondering what the difference between Lucia and Magus are...guess its "Character nerfed the ENTIRE FUCKING GAME after one very early dungeon" vs. "character the game hypes for a majority of it who loses powers and slowly regains them, plotwise, as time goes on, just never quite does in game?"  Eh, someone cover this for me <_<

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, I realised my comment had some flaws in it, hence the edit.

Regardless, this is a big tangent that is worth avoiding for now; we have enough on our plates.

[Grefter]

Ice is water in its solid state.  Most Ice based attacks in RPGs do damage through the absence of heat quite clearly and not getting a big chunk of ice and fashioning it into a home made shiv.  You know this, you have not ruined the humor with flat responses.

[Meeplelard]

Yeah.  If nothing else, reference FF4 for the 3 ice attacks.

Blizzard: Hits the guy with a Snow Storm.  Its clearly snow since there's no impact and its soft and such.
Blizzara: Entraps the guy in Ice.  Again, no slamming the guy with Ice and such, just it forms around them.
Blizzaga: Hits the guys with Icicles from above.  Ok, argument that their being impaled here, I guess.

Still, 2 out of the 3 spells are CLEARLY Freezing in nature, the 3rd has the freezing thing combined impaling the guy (obviously why its stronger than the other two.)  Now look at some enemy attacks like Cold Breath which is clearly nothing more than breathing cold air on the enemy.

I could go on, but in most cases, Ice based attacks involve freezing.  In fact, there are circumstances where Ice Based moves that rely on it being a large blunt object (or sharp spear like instrument for Icicle related things) being Non Elemental.  Edea's Limit Break, Ice Strike, is Non Elemental, I believe, even though she blatantly forms a large icicle of death and tosses it like a javelin at the enemy; its cause the damage is coming from the guy being impaled (and it being made of Ice feels more like "Hey look its a solid object that can change shape and can be used just about anywhere!" reason, but that's looking too into it), NOT from the freezing nature.

So yeah, don't try to twist facts.  As Grefter said, you know very well Ice damage is cause of its freezing nature, and not cause of it being a hard/sharp object.

As a parallel, its no different than how Fire damage comes from burning the guy cause its really freaking hot, not from the explosive impact of the fire forming (that logic is exactly why Flare ISN'T elemental in FF games near as I can tell, since its hurting the guy from an explosive impact as opposed to burning their flesh off.)

[InfinityDragon]

And just like non-elemental indicates an absence of any other elements. An object can be black (fail to reflect any type of light) just as easily as an attack can be non-elemental (fail to have any elemental attributes).

Okay, I guess I need to go back to an even more basic level.

Something that "exists" only as the absence of something else cannot have any interaction. Period.

You can't touch, taste, smell, see, or hear a vacuum; you cannot interact with it.

Color is the interaction of the visible light bands of electromagnetic waves as they strike the cones in the eyes. A truly black object does not reflect any visible light, thus no visible light strikes the cones of the eyes, thus no interaction.

Now, if we accept the premise that all attacks must have an element of some sort, then in order to have an interaction (i.e. deal damage) the element cannot simply be the absence of elements. This means that the attack *does* have a true element (just unlabeled in most cases) and as such, its interaction effects can be altered by the target (although it usually isn't, generally to make those attacks more worthwhile).

But wouldn't that mean that, say, FFX Ultima or Flare, which are Magic (and hence not Universal) are not subject to Jenna's Almighty resistance?

That would be the case if DDS actually had a Magic element, but it doesn't. To find the effects of the attack, I analogize it to the nearest element that does exist in DDS: Almighty. If you don't analogize it and apply a strict, literal, analysis, then you could say Jenna cannot defend against purely magical attacks that have no secondary elements. This is why I said this argument can go either way, and I don't mind people saying Jenna simply doesn't have the right resistance type.

But say Flare is hitting a BoF4 enemy instead (which does treat Magic as an enumerated element). Then I'd argue that you'd look to see how that target affects pure Magic damage, rather than claim Flare ignores the resistance entirely because it's "non-elemental."

Also, keep in mind that I never stated that Flare/Ultimate/Etc must be pigeonholed into an enumerated element (say Magic), only that they have an element that is left unnamed, and that this unnamed element can still be resisted like any other element.

This particular factor (that other summoners can prevent Yuna from summoning an aeon if they aren't actively involved in the fight) is worth less than nothing. It is based both on a pure conjecture from a plot standpoint, has zero gameplay backing, AND contradicts the fact that we allow PCs to use things that at other times in the plot may have been used by another character, usually a boss.

I don't see how it is worth less than nothing. Yuna cannot summon Bahamut if Isaaru has summoned Bahamut already. This is an undeniable fact that points away from Aeons being unique to each summoner. You can extrapolate possible reasons from there, but those add more assumptions, and thus are less parsimonious. The fact, as it stands with no added assumptions, is against Yuna's favor, hands down.

In other words, the burden of proof is on you to show that Yuna's summoning would be interfered with in the DL.

Of course it is, but I've never claimed that the total lack of evidence that Aeons can summoned in two places simultaneously is evidence that Aeons cannot be in two places at once. The reasons I've given are completely different that this (and really don't need to be repeated for the umpteenth time). A total lack of evidence for either view is worthless to either side.

So yeah, don't try to twist facts.  As Grefter said, you know very well Ice damage is cause of its freezing nature, and not cause of it being a hard/sharp object.

Yes, but this obviously isn't the time for a lesson in thermodynamics. Yes, the definition of "cold" is the absence of heat, but you can still define the underlying effects easily enough without resorting to an absolute negative or absence (i.e. An object with low thermal energy will absorb the thermal energy of a nearby object, thereby reducing the thermal energy in the nearby object). You still cannot do the same for "black" or "vacuum" or "non-elemental."

[Shale]

Now, if we accept the premise that all attacks must have an element of some sort,

We don't. In most systems (granted, not all, as things like Pokemon and BoF4 exist where everything has an element), elemental affinity is optional. Attacks may have a characteristic that allows them to be affected by elemental defenses, but they don't have to. I could write a (incredibly simplistic) battle system right now that checks elemental attacks against elemental defenses, modifies them appropriately when they correspond, and ignores those defenses altogether if the "element" field is left blank. What doesn't make sense about that?

Conceptually, yes, an attack has to be physical, magic, lightning, exploding, something in order for it to deal damage, but in systems where defense is separate from elemental resistance/weakness (see FF6 - defense is a number from 0 to 255, elemental resistance has five discrete values with no intermediate steps) it doesn't have to be mechanically treated as elemental.

[InfinityDragon]

We don't. In most systems (granted, not all, as things like Pokemon and BoF4 exist where everything has an element), elemental affinity is optional.

And this leads back to if an attack does not have a specified elemental affinity, then what DOES it have? Basic "magic" or "physical" "type" (which we agreed was just a semantic difference)? What happens when basic physical (that doesn't have an enumerated elemental affinity for physicals) in game X hits Fou Lu (who resists the Physical element)?

Like I said, it's not necessarily a wrong view to see elements as modifiers to the base attack "type" (whatever that may be), it just requires more assumptions than viewing the elements AS the base attack type.

[Shale]

In most games it's not just a semantic difference, though - defense is often entirely separate from elemental resistance, to the point where there's no way to reconcile the way they work. Take FFVI - defense and magic defense there are whole-number values from 0 to 255. Elemental resistances, on the other hand, have five discrete "steps" - weakness, neutrality, 50% reduction, full nullification, and absorption. You can't treat physical/magical typing as an element and fit it into the game's mechanics.

Regarding the Fou-Lu issue, it's the same as many people do with Pokemon, treating non-typed damage as "Normal" - you make the judgment call that fits best with two systems that aren't completely compatible on their own.

Here's a question for you, for that matter. In Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete, physical attack skills like Sword Dance and Explosion Staff have an elemental type - you can see that some enemies resist them (damage displays in gray) and they hit weakness against others (red text). Basic physicals do not have this element. If Alex fights Fou-Lu, does he resist basic attacks with his Physical resistance? Sword Dance? Both, despite the fact that they're not the same element? If the latter, then you recognize that sometimes the best way to deal with an oddball element (or lack thereof) in a duel with a conflicting system is to convert it to something it isn't in its own game, for sanity purposes, which is how most of us deal with "Physical" or "Normal" elemental resistance/weakness.

[Niu]

Here's a question for you, for that matter. In Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete, physical attack skills like Sword Dance and Explosion Staff have an elemental type - you can see that some enemies resist them (damage displays in gray) and they hit weakness against others (red text). Basic physicals do not have this element. If Alex fights Fou-Lu, does he resist basic attacks with his Physical resistance? Sword Dance? Both, despite the fact that they're not the same element? If the latter, then you recognize that sometimes the best way to deal with an oddball element (or lack thereof) in a duel with a conflicting system is to convert it to something it isn't in its own game, for sanity purposes, which is how most of us deal with "Physical" or "Normal" elemental resistance/weakness.

Hm?
I think this is a bad example to ask. As it is more about how far you see Fou-Lu's physical resistence encompasses rather than the fundemental blargh that ID is talking about.
As in that example, it is basically saying the samething like, SaGa fist attack is strike element and SaGa sword atack has slash element, they are different types of element but both erocgnize as being physical, so does Fou-Lu only resist a specific one or both?

[Shale]

My point is just that you can treat an attack from one game as an element from another for consistency's sake without assuming that said attack was always really that element and they never told you.