Season 41, Week 5 - Gades vs. Kharg. Elfboy dies of brain anneurysm.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike

Yuna (FFX) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)

Heavy

Gades (Lufias) vs Kharg (AtL4)

Middle

Peter (SF2) vs Canas (FE7)

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9)

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike

Yuna (FFX) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)- Yuna

Heavy

Gades (Lufias) vs Kharg (AtL4)- Gades. Yeah, tanks a Big Owl, 2HKOs.

Middle

Peter (SF2) vs Canas (FE7)- Canas

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9)- Lani

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Middle

Peter (SF2) vs Canas (FE7) - Nosferatu. That's that.

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9) - I'll probably be able to vote on this match before the week ends!

[Shale]

Middle
Peter (SF2) vs Canas (FE7)
Nosferatu. Owned.

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9)
Unscaled Lani is infinite fail.

[mia~]

...Ricardo is in the finals again.
....;lksdf234il;dsf

[Monkeyfinger]

Godlike

Yuna (FFX) vs Jenna Angel (DDS): Impulse was the only MT attack in Yuna's entire Aeon arsenal IIRC. Jenna2 whips Bahamut's ass in a straight fight easily enough, then no other Aeon nor human Yuna can do anything about the orbs. (Jenna2 takes 10% from non-elemental magic so no hyping Anima bypassing the whole issue with Pain or anything)

Heavy

Gades (Lufias) vs Kharg (AtL4)

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9)

[SageAcrin]

Godlike

Yuna (FFX) vs Jenna Angel (DDS): Impulse was the only MT attack in Yuna's entire Aeon arsenal IIRC. Jenna2 whips Bahamut's ass in a straight fight easily enough, then no other Aeon nor human Yuna can do anything about the orbs. (Jenna2 takes 10% from non-elemental magic so no hyping Anima bypassing the whole issue with Pain or anything)

Grand Summon puts a wee bit of a cog in that lack of MT part, doesn't it?

Specifically it makes the match really freaking annoying to figure out, since Anima also has every flavor of elemental magic in Ga form.

I'm too tired to think about this right now, just pointing it out for the extra pain factor. Personally I'm not inclined to see Holy as an element existing in DDS anyways, so I don't see Jenna getting out of this with form 2, but anyways. <_<

[superaielman]

Gades/Peter/Lani, all are no brainers.

[Meeplelard]

Godlike

Yuna (FFX) vs Jenna Angel (DDS): Form 1 runs out of HP long before Yuna runs out of Aeons, form 2 just lacks the damage to eat through all the Aeons, especially when Anima can take enough punishment with Boost to get an overdrive up -> use Oblivion which is NONTYPED damage -> Jenna takes a crap load of damage and all her orbs are gone too.  At that point, Jenna will be reviving one orb a turn...at the same rate Anima destroys them (has all the Ga spells, and then there's still Pain for the physical one, being NON ELEMENTAL MAGIC.)  If Anima falls? Bahamut just cleans up doing more or less the same thing (he's also pretty damn tanky, not as much as Anima granted, but...yeah.)

Also, Jenna blocks 6 specific elements anyway, those being Fire, Water/Ice, Lightning, Force (aka Wind), Earth and Physicals.  Holy doesn't fall into any of those (and there is a Holy element in DDS, even if it covers mostly just Gravity), so Yuna can just bypass it for one last hit, assuming Jenna can one turn Yuna herself (though, she basically had a shakey status move, one that Yuna can block part of, a bunch of magic and an evadable physical that was hardly very accurate, so my kneejerk says No, especially since at least 2 of those shots.  Oh yeah, lets not forget that Jenna can't afford to use Fire or Ice Crystals (and given how DDS turns work,  I probably force her to use them eventually, just might let her use them as the last actions) since Yuna absorbs that, thus kills turns, and any time Jenna misses is more lost actions, so...Yuna might win without Aeons anyway, but that might be going too far, would need to look stuff up, etc.

Heavy

Gades (Lufias) vs Kharg (AtL4): Gades can buff himself and probably work around Kharg's healing, and I don't think Big Owl + a few Wind Blaze Waltzes can take him down.  L1 Gades doesn't totally fail, after all.

Middle

Peter (SF2) vs Canas (FE7): I was thinking "Canas gets doubled with Nosferatu, thus dies" ...until I remember he's trading turns ANYWAY, since the fight looks like this!

Peter attacks!
Canas counters with Nosferatu, heals
Peter gets his double!
Canas uses Nosferatu normally, heals.

Alternatively, he can open with Flux, not get doubled, use that to counter with, then attack normally with Nosferatu.    That's probably a better strategy here.

...also, yes, I'm giving Peter the benefit of the doubt here.  He's actually below average speed himself, and Canas is 4.5 below average speed with Nosferatu, so there is an argument that Peter doesn't double.  I personally see him as doing so, if barely, but keep this in mind.

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9): Here's hoping Lani finally gets out of Light.

[alanna82]

Gades vs Kharg is the only match I CAN vote on. (no play DDS, SF2 or SH3)

Gades tanks big owl, then kills Kharg. Lufia One Gades is godlike.

[SageAcrin]

Holy doesn't fall into any of those (and there is a Holy element in DDS, even if it covers mostly just Gravity), so Yuna can just bypass it for one last hit, assuming Jenna can one turn Yuna herself

Oh, no, the orbs and Jenna block Expel-elemental damage I'm fairly sure.

You just have to see that as Gravity and not Holy.

Considering it has one non-Gravity attack and that Gravity-elemental damage isn't unheard of, that's not a stretch for moi, personally.

DDS Expel is pretty much only Holy-elemental plotwise, in practice it's Gravity. Same with how DDS considers it's non-elemental damage to have an element and one person who resists it; Plotwise it's elemental, but, really, it's not(The one person even resists it something silly like 90% or 80% or something. Everything else is 50%/null/absorb/reflect. I'm willing to consider that strange enough for an exception and not a rule, myself.).

(Though, granted, seems like if you're calling Expel Holy, you should be considering Almighty it's own element based on the plot-elements of both at which point Yuna pretty badly trashes Jenna with Grand Summon/Pain. Again, this match is fun in a "Everyone has a headache." way.)

[Dunefar]

Heavy

Gades (Lufias) vs Kharg (AtL4) - Gades. Lufia 1 form should do it as it has good durability.

Not a great voting week for me.

[Meeplelard]

Hmm...true, DDS calls it Expel, and not Holy.

My general thought was that while she does resist it, it felt purely as "She resists it for the sake of stopping those Gravity moves!" and not "resists it cause she resists Holy!" 

Mechanically speaking, it definitely acts a lot more like Gravity than Holy, so yeah, probably just view it as hitting the same resistance as FF7 Gravity Elemental.

[Grefter]

It is also not unheard of to have gravity moves that have specific elemental allignments.  Can't think of one off hand but they exist.

[demi-fiend dante]

Specifically it makes the match really freaking annoying to figure out, since Anima also has every flavor of elemental magic in Ga form.

Remember, any MT elemental attack Anima uses gets reflected back twice (Jenna + Core).

form 2 just lacks the damage to eat through all the Aeons

From the stat topic
Jenna2

Physical - 91
Reincarnate(combo with two cores) - 310
Cores - 70

Average HP - 445

So Reincarnate + 4 core attacks is 590 or 1.3 PCHP.  Jenna2 does not lack damage at all.  Infact, this
should just barely be enough to one-round Yuna despite her magic defense.

Holy doesn't fall into any of those (and there is a Holy element in DDS, even if it covers mostly just Gravity)

This requires two judgement calls in Yuna's favor.  The first one is that Expel =/= Holy. The second is that Yuna's Holy is Holy and not non-elemental like it is in-game.  She needs both.

On the topic of Expel =/= Holy, it should be pointed out that it is the same element as Persona's Holy, which no one argues isn't Holy.

Fire or Ice Crystals (and given how DDS turns work,  I probably force her to use them eventually, just might let her use them as the last actions)

Reincarnate means she would never need to use them.

Yuna might win without Aeons anyway

Actually Jenna2 should beat Aeonless Yuna without her cores.  Vanity has too many match ending statuses.


Godlike

Yuna (FFX) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)  The above plus the fact that Jenna can kill Yuna between Aeons and she pretty much wins if she lands any of Vanity's statuses.  And thats ignoring this:

Just some added info on the Belial/Jenna match.

Jenna1 and Jenna2 are intra-battle forms. Buffs remain on the party when the second form begins, including Power Charge and Mind Charge. The only thing different about the second form is the music and Jenna's appearance.

For those that allow intra-battle form chains (which is most people, I think), there isn't really any way Jenna loses this.

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9)

[InfinityDragon]

Grand Summon puts a wee bit of a cog in that lack of MT part, doesn't it?

Yuna can't afford to sit around building up her OD gauge. The moment Yuna is alone, Jenna simply nukes her with Bhairava and ends the match, or uses Vanity until a fatal status hits (depends on which phase Jenna is at). Yuna simply gets slaughtered if she tries to tank out Jenna's final form without Aeon tanking, since Vanity or Reincarnate + Orbs kill.

Specifically it makes the match really freaking annoying to figure out, since Anima also has every flavor of elemental magic in Ga form.

Reincarnate kills Anima before Anima can take out all the Cores (Reincarnate deals 50% or so of Anima's HP, Anima's MT spell gets reflected back and kills Anima off easily enough). After that, Jenna just creates the Core that nulls out whatever Aeon Yuna summons next. Even if you allow Magus Three, their actions are far too random to be useful against an enemy that requires careful manipulation.

Mechanically speaking, it definitely acts a lot more like Gravity than Holy, so yeah, probably just view it as hitting the same resistance as FF7 Gravity Elemental.

No, only the Hama line of spells behave like that. Xanadu is strictly a direct damage dealing Expel attack. If you look at other games that use the same system (which isn't unreasonable), then there's more damage dealing spells (Violet Flash, Radiance in SMT3) as well as ID spells. At any rate, the fact that Xanadu isn't a gravity attack means that Hama's gravity damage is just a subset of Expel damage.

Godlike

Yuna (FFX) vs Jenna Angel (DDS) - No Aeons from me, so Yuna eats Bhairava and dies. Failing that, Yuna is walled wholly and completely once Jenna brings out her final form.

Heavy

Gades (Lufias) vs Kharg (AtL4)

Middle

Peter (SF2) vs Canas (FE7) - Don't think Nosferatu heals enough, and it can't crit. Peter kills on his second attack.

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9)

[SageAcrin]

Specifically it makes the match really freaking annoying to figure out, since Anima also has every flavor of elemental magic in Ga form.

Remember, any MT elemental attack Anima uses gets reflected back twice (Jenna + Core).

Had you not taken that out of context, you may have noticed it was preceeded by a mention of Grand Summon? >_>

Anima's Overdrive is physical and MT. Knock out the cores, then hammer on Jenna until the elemental cores are back up, unsummon, tank out, Grand Summon again, is the idea.

The second is that Yuna's Holy is Holy and not non-elemental like it is in-game.  She needs both.

Nah, one enemy in-game absorbs Holy. (Or was it nulls...it's been a while, but this has definitely come up before.) It's Holy-elemental. On a near-technicality, but it's not like anyone lets Fei get off easy because of this stuff either. We're back to one here. ^_^

Reincarnate kills Anima before Anima can take out all the Cores (Reincarnate deals 50% or so of Anima's HP, Anima's MT spell gets reflected back and kills Anima off easily enough).

This, however, is a genuinely good point that only really applies if you see Jenna as coming in with six cores.

Which is pretty uncommon IIRC, but more power to you if you do.

Reincarnate requires two.

bla bla Form 1 bla

Auto-Life.

(Please don't go "OMG WE ALLOW AUTO-REVIVAL!!1!?!?!?" which I have seen every *other* time this is brought up. To shoot it down beforehand; It was always FFT auto-life that was an issue because the game ended. Other Auto-Revival has always been a by-person choice and honestly I see no reason not to allow it. It's effective enough in-game to allow you to live through Nemesis overkill damage, don't see why it doesn't deserve DL hype.)

If you disallow it, you're correct, though, Yuna cannot beat Form 1 without Aeons unless you take levels high and see her living through it under Protect.

Pity she can't spam Bhairava, though, isn't it. Can't cut through the Aeons due to that only being after her shifts between subforms. Go pseudo-limit telegraphed attacks.

Vanity or Reincarnate + Orbs kill.

Vanity: Inflicts one random statuses, MT. 65% chance to inflict one. (You can't be inflicted with more than one status in this game) Can be Poison, Charm, Panic, Mute, Sleep.

20% chance it'll poison screwing over further status attempts, probably Reflectable. (The stat topic calls it Almighty. I cannot fathom why. It's very clearly, um, not. 'cause if it was it'd hit everything in the game with status which would be a wee bit good.)

Doubled up Reflect lets her get around this, you can't self-target Vanity on PCs and I cannot imagine why you'd let a boss self-target a spell PCs cannot.

If you don't see it as Reflectable? Sure, works on average. I'm not hyping this match as one-sided and won't mind seeing Yuna lose if it comes to that.

Latter strategy: Shell+Reflect. Ehehehe pity that Reincarnate uses two orbs and Yuna's MDur rocks and two orbs get elements absorbed by Yuna anyways, isn't it. (To expand on Meeple's attempted point: Is Reincarnate two random orbs or two chosen ones? Good question.)

Though, having said that? You could see Dekaja hit Shell. Isn't this match a lovely mess?

No, only the Hama line of spells behave like that. Xanadu is strictly a direct damage dealing Expel attack.

And is the only one.

There's a Panic-which is a status element-elemental damage spell, too. What's your point precisely?

Other games in different branches of the series don't count worth a damn, Almighty has been a standard element in Persona, too, with no difference at all from any other element. Doesn't mean I see Yuna's Reflect hitting Bhairava and Reincarnate.

Edit:

On a related note, if you see Holy hitting through, Yuna's MDef(DDS status clearly hits...something and I'm fairly sure it's the appropriate defensive stat+Luck.)+the fact that it can be poison means it's Turn 2 status.(Well. Yuna MDef doesn't matter at all for this being Turn 2, actually. It just is unless you take 50% as hitting, which is the only time the MDef comes up.) Yuna gets two Holys off, which is around 2x PC HP.  Your call if Yuna gets statused out before she kills, depends on how much you respect Jenna 2 raw durability.

Mmmm, interpretation mires. ^_^

[Monkeyfinger]

Yuna gets two Holys off, which is around 2x PC HP.

More like 1.5.

Jenna2 has 12,000 HP, which translates to about 5.75x to me.

And these MT overdrives would be a bad move unless you don't allow Jenna to choose which core she summons, because Jenna will keep a core of the right element at all times (this means physical for Anima, and she just resummons it every time Anima kills it with an -aga, remember she does this and attacks on the same turn), meaning the OD gets double reflected back into the Aeon's face when used.

For the record I do not allow form 2 or any other dueller to start with any support out, but I do allow it to be summoned (just like Yuna does!) With almost 6x PCHP, I see Jenna2 as having plenty of time to set up a good defense.

[InfinityDragon]

20% chance it'll poison screwing over further status attempts, probably Reflectable. (The stat topic calls it Almighty. I cannot fathom why. It's very clearly, um, not. 'cause if it was it'd hit everything in the game with status which would be a wee bit good.)

You have it backwards: further status attempts can ruin a good status in place. This is what makes Huang Long not so bad; he'll Celestial Ray and inflict a bunch of game wrecking status, then he'll cast it again and Poison everyone instead.

I'll agree that Vanity isn't Almighty, since Null Attack blocks it. It isn't reflectable, however, since it goes right through Makarakarn.

Latter strategy: Shell+Reflect. Ehehehe pity that Reincarnate uses two orbs and Yuna's MDur rocks and two orbs get elements absorbed by Yuna anyways, isn't it

One orb is still going to do the full 70+ damage (Gold Core's Skull Cleave against Yuna's DEF), Ice Orb and Fire Orb aren't going to be absorbed, since those will be the two Jenna combines with for Reincarnate, which leaves Wind, Earth, and Lightning Cores for doing their ST damage. It still comes out to a borderline OHKO on her.

Not that this matters, Yuna has no chance of dealing damage to Jenna without Aeons.

Though, having said that? You could see Dekaja hit Shell. Isn't this match a lovely mess?

Why wouldn't Dekaja hit Shell? Rakukaja is a direct reduction of damage received, as is Shell, and Dekaja is meant to blow Rakukaja away. Shell should be no exception.

And is the only one.

It doesn't matter if there's only one. The existence of Xanadu means Expel is not gravity based. Period. Hama spells are gravity attacks that deal Expel damage, but this does not mean Expel is gravity; a classic case of "a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square."

You could argue that Expel isn't Holy because it's not called Holy...but that argument just throws everything into chaos (It's not Fire damage, it's Heat damage! It's not Silence, it's Mute!).

Other games in different branches of the series don't count worth a damn

I said system, not series. There's no real difference between DDS1's battle system and SMT3's and DDS2's, and people have used the other games as references points. It's called persuasive authority and it can be a helpful tool.

[mia~]

If it helps (?) any, the Kanji used for Expel in the Japanese version is Spiritual Exorcism. >.>; This strikes me as Holy, but~

[SageAcrin]

You have it backwards: further status attempts can ruin a good status in place.

Was informed of that in chat.

However, Poison still sucks for these purposes and it still has a 20% chance of inflicting it. So, still turn 2.

One orb is still going to do the full 70+ damage (Gold Core's Skull Cleave against Yuna's DEF),

Can miss.

It isn't reflectable, however, since it goes right through Makarakarn.

Not my recollection, I recall Reflect Magic the skill bouncing it, which is, I believe, functionally the same thing. Anyone else want to chip in?

It doesn't matter if there's only one. The existence of Xanadu means Expel is not gravity based. Period.

The existance of FF7 Gravity-elemental physicals mean FF7 Gravity attacks are not Gravity elemental, but physical. Period.

Sephiroth needs to come in and kill both. Mwhahaaha.

Why wouldn't Dekaja hit Shell? Rakukaja is a direct reduction of damage received, as is Shell, and Dekaja is meant to blow Rakukaja away. Shell should be no exception.

Why would it? Shell's a positive status that has no effect on raw stats, but instead directly impacts raw damage done, even down to reducing damage on ITD attacks.

Works both ways, really, your call.

I said system, not series. There's no real difference between DDS1's battle system and SMT3's

Doesn't matter. The entire set of games has elemental consistancy comparable to the attention span of a retarded child following a pretty butterfly. Elements phase in and out of existance and change how the games treat them all the time. It's bad enough to do it between games in the same series, where at least some argument can be made, but spinoffs? That has no relevance, really...

If you want "persuasive authority", though, how about this joking argument I made in chat which runs along the same lines?

DDS1 Demifiend nulls all attacks but Almighty and Earth.

SMT3 Demifiend nulls all attacks but Almighty.

SMT3 lacked Earth.

Therefore DDS1 is demonstratably really strict about how it handles elements that don't exist in the home game. Demifiend logically should null Earth by all reasonable logic, but doesn't because the game is that strict.

That's a much more relevant "persuasive authority", since it's the game it's self making this commentary. By this logic DDS's programmers would probably let Holy hit Jenna.

THIS ARGUMENT STRIKES ME AS RIDICULOUS. THE ONE I AM MAKING. But hey, you started it. <_<

And these MT overdrives would be a bad move unless you don't allow Jenna to choose which core she summons, because Jenna will keep a core of the right element at all times (this means physical for Anima, and she just resummons it every time Anima kills it with an -aga, remember she does this and attacks on the same turn), meaning the OD gets double reflected back into the Aeon's face when used.

If it helps at all, Magus Sisters OD one-shots the Cores definitely through all the Almighty resist, unless you highly respect 460 DDS HP(64000 resisted 90% is 6400 is around average damage.). Dunno if you allow those/see that/whatever.

That's some high Jenna HP respect, but it's not like there's anything wrong with that.

If it helps (?) any, the Kanji used for Expel in the Japanese version is Spiritual Exorcism. >.>; This strikes me as Holy, but~

That sounds actually decidedly different from the kanji they usually use for Holy, so it actually makes things more muddy. Thanks, the more muddy this match gets, the happier I am.

^_^ God, I haven't seen a match I enjoyed so much in ages.

[mia~]

In the name of the lulz, the JP description of Holy says that Holy is a magical attack BY MEANS OF DIVINE/SACRED POWER. Oshi-!

(Also, if you go LOLmode, the JP Hama description says Exorcism Property. The italics part is important 'cause it's not on say, Zan's description where it says it's a Shock damage. THUS, you could argue that Hama and co are non-elemental attacks and the "exorcism" part is a special property of the spell, not it's "element"!)


Edit: Uh, I was going to type a wall of tl;dr about Zio/Zan shock, but I'm major :psyduck: right now! So I stand by comment that thisallsoundsretardedinenglish. 8D!

[Grefter]

See this is why I like only allowing Jenna 1 because it avoids so many headaches.  This is honestly the only reason I do so, but meh, I probably wouldn't rank Jenna 2 battle because of the interp shit that it brings up.

Less arguing based on translations please or I will have to stab you in the kidney with a cork screw.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Grefter speaks wisdom.

Godlike

Yuna (FFX) vs Jenna Angel (DDS): What stops Oblivion from OHKOing Final Jenna? Of course, I throw out the final form anyway, so this is just a slaughter.

Heavy

Gades (Lufias) vs Kharg (AtL4): Oh come on.

Middle

Peter (SF2) vs Canas (FE7): Yeah, trading hits does it. Don't think Peter really pushes through that.

Light

Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Lani (FF9): Right.

[InfinityDragon]

See this is why I like only allowing Jenna 1 because it avoids so many headaches.  This is honestly the only reason I do so, but meh, I probably wouldn't rank Jenna 2 battle because of the interp shit that it brings up.

The only thing Jenna 2 adds is how many Orbs, if any, you allow her to start with and summon later. Everything else Sage and I have brought up are general issues with DDS's battle system. You'd have the same arguments for whether Expel is equivalent to Holy or not regardless of if it was Jenna2, Jenna1, Harley, or any other DDS boss (Jenna just happens to be the only one ranked).

Why would it? Shell's a positive status that has no effect on raw stats, but instead directly impacts raw damage done, even down to reducing damage on ITD attacks.p

Which is the exact same thing Rakukaja does. 1 Rakukaja = 12.5% damage reduction; 4 Rakukajas = 50% damage reduction. Rakukaja doesn't alter your defense stats at all.

If you want "persuasive authority", though, how about this joking argument I made in chat which runs along the same lines?

Which is why I said it can be a helpful tool and didn't call it the definitive answer-provider.

What stops Oblivion from OHKOing Final Jenna? Of course, I throw out the final form anyway, so this is just a slaughter.

90% resistance to non-elemental damage. A 9990 FFX damage attack isn't scaring anyone.

And is there any reason why you don't allow the final form? Other than not liking it for some explicable reason...which isn't valid grounds for kicking out half of a character's valid dueling ability.