Season 41, Week 5 - Gades vs. Kharg. Elfboy dies of brain anneurysm.

[Dark Holy Elf]

90% resistance to non-elemental damage

*Almighty

If things are specifically affecting it, then it's not as "non"-elemental as you claim. By definition one shouldn't be able to affect non-elemental damage with an elemental resistance.

Semantics aside, given Oblivion's ability to specifically ignore damage reducers and immunities (everything from Protect to Cheer to physical immunity) due to completely lacking any type at all, I wouldn't see it affected by a resistance.

And is there any reason why you don't allow the final form?

Multipart headache. I suppose I could allow it but throw out the orbs if you want to argue me on that.

Also wait, you allow the orbs to block damage from Jenna but not aeons to block damage from Yuna? For a reason besides not liking them... which isn't valid grounds for kicking out half of a character's valid duelling ability?

[Meeplelard]

Nah, one enemy in-game absorbs Holy. (Or was it nulls...it's been a while, but this has definitely come up before.) It's Holy-elemental. On a near-technicality, but it's not like anyone lets Fei get off easy because of this stuff either. We're back to one here. ^_^

At very least, Nemisis absorbs Holy, yeah.

I...think Yunalesca MIGHT be Weak to Holy, actually, her description in Scan implies it. HOWEVER, the only real way to test this is to get a bunch of Dark Matters from the Battle Arena (this would take forever, as it requires beating up the same weak enemy over and over again and hoping for the best.  Alternatively, Blitz Ball works too, but that takes EVEN LONGER.), teach Yuna Break Damage Limit (can't get fully unlocked Celestials until after the Airship, so this is your only option), and then see if she takes any extra damage.

Again, I said "think" and not "is" so this could be wrong anyway.  But in any event, yeah, Nemisis proves Holy is elemental.  Just its resisted by so few things (bet there's a few other obscure enemies you don't care about that resist/weak/null it) that react to it that the attack might as well be NonElemental in game.  Furthermore, the game pretends there's only 4 elements (Fire, Ice, Lightning and Water), and Scan doesn't tell you, so...yeah...
Wouldn't be surprised if stuff like Dark Flan who resists all 4 elements already also resisted Holy, but doesn't largely matter; Nemisis alone is enough proof.

And before someone tries to say "Nemisis may absorb all Magic!" I actually explicitly tested against that.  Ultima and Flare, two Non Elemental Spells, still hurt him like they normally would. 

EDIT:
And to expand upon Sage's point about Oblivion being "physical."

Its not quite Physical.  It runs off Strength, but it ignores all physical related aspects like Protect, Power Break, etc.  Even physical immunity from Jumbo Flan or Neslug for that matter.  Unsure if it ignores defense though.

Elfboy, you're a bit wrong about Cheer = physical resistance.  From what I remember, Cheer acts like normal defense, for all that its a flat hit to damage reduction, as I remember due to the Tidus SCC, Tidus was taking a lot less from TG2 than what others should have, and it was determined Cheer was the effect.

Granted, Cheer also gets hit by defense ignoring, so...yeah.  Its possible to be non-typed Damage that doesn't ignore defense.  I could be misremembering, granted!

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh, that's right, Cheer modifies DefNum and thus affects defence-subject damage rather than physical. My mistake.

I...think Yunalesca MIGHT be Weak to Holy

She isn't, and this is easily testable. (I had Kimahri with Holy, and he did less to her than he did to average enemies, due to her MDef. A Holy weakness would more than offset her MDef.)

That's just a bit of a significant goof in Sensor/Scan. They probably meant to make her Holy-weak but forgot, or something like that.

[Talaysen]

I think ID's point about the Expel thing is that Jenna blocking Expel doesn't mean she only blocks gravity, because there IS an Expel attack that's not gravity.  So saying Expel == Holy AND Jenna doesn't block non-gravity Holy attacks is stupid.  Just like an FF7 boss that blocks Gravity elemental would also block non-gravity Gravity elemental attacks.  (Atelier Iris 3 debatably has some of these, but that'll never come up ever, thank god.)

This is not difficult.

Also, I don't recall Vanity being reflectable at all, nor do I remember it hitting weakness on Cielo.  From what I noticed, it IS an Almighty attack overall, but the statuses themselves still check their respective immunities.

[InfinityDragon]

Semantics aside, given Oblivion's ability to specifically ignore damage reducers and immunities (everything from Protect to Cheer to physical immunity) due to completely lacking any type at all, I wouldn't see it affected by a resistance

Oblivion doesn't strike me as being any different than Ragnarok (Almighty attack that is based off Strength and hits Vitality), the only difference is that DDS1 has two enemies (out of 100+) that resist Almighty while FFX doesn't have enemies that resist non-typed. How you take it after that is up to interpretation, I suppose.

Multipart headache. I suppose I could allow it but throw out the orbs if you want to argue me on that.

It is not hard at all to interpret multipart bosses unless you refuse to try, and Jenna is barely multipart.

If you don't like the final form because it's part of a form chain...well I hope you only allow Profound Darkness one form, or Necrosaro one form, otherwise you're breaking consistency since Jenna is no different from them.

Also wait, you allow the orbs to block damage from Jenna but not aeons to block damage from Yuna? For a reason besides not liking them... which isn't valid grounds for kicking out half of a character's valid duelling ability?

Aeons are not unique in any way shape or form. If one Summoner in the FFX world has an Aeon currently summoned, no other Summoner can call on that Aeon. This also points to the fact that Aeons are individual beings and not some manifestation that is solely derived from Yuna's power. Allowing Yuna to summon Aeons has about as much merit as allowing Idura to summon his goons or Lezard to summon Dragon Tooth Warriors.

We've been over this, and you're just bring up a dead horse to beat.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oblivion doesn't strike me as being any different than Ragnarok (Almighty attack that is based off Strength and hits Vitality), the only difference is that DDS1 has two enemies (out of 100+) that resist Almighty while FFX doesn't have enemies that resist non-typed. How you take it after that is up to interpretation, I suppose.

Again: I don't view it as possible to resist "nonelemental"; that is a contradiction. One can only resist elements; non-elemental is not an element but the lack of one. The only conclusion that can be drawn here is that Almighty is more like PS4 Gravity or FFX Holy; it's -almost- non-elemental, but the presence of Jenna (and another enemy?) indicate that it is not quite.

I allow bosses formchains, unless there is revival or healing in between, or if the battles are separate. However I chose to ignore Jenna 2 before I thought that battle was a formchain, and will continue to do so.

[superaielman]

If you don't like the final form because it's part of a form chain...well I hope you only allow Profound Darkness one form, or Necrosaro one form, otherwise you're breaking consistency since Jenna is no different from them.

If Fou-Lu had a perfectly good claim to Tyrant and then Astral being chained I'd toss that. If someone is fully and completely bluelike they should not be ranked in the DL and should be taken in a reasonable if possible manner.  See: Sulphur, allowing TimeLord both his PC and boss form at the same time, Ocean Palace Lavos, ranking Blue, Hauser, etc.

In Jenna's case, it's.. reasonable to allow both on and off, but chaining the fight makes her a bluelike and I'm not convinced anyway I see that kind of chaining as legal (Tend to make those types of duellers start at the end of their chain)a, so yeah.

[SageAcrin]

And really, the arguments of AI vs physical limitation on Jenna 2 are far stronger than most bosses(Cores: Can she pull out the one she needs every time? Can she choose which to use for Reincarnate?), the core issue is a mess(She entirely relies on support. Remember, people go in for banning Lavos, same interp issue. She's trash if you disallow cores entirely.), her way of resisting NE is weird because one could argue she resists Almighty and not NE(This is seriously not that different from arguing she blocks Holy because she blocks Expel, honestly. Just in a different direction.)...

Really, she's not too bad if you ban cores entirely, but Jenna 1 is straight up better then so it doesn't actually *matter*. <_<

Which is the exact same thing Rakukaja does. 1 Rakukaja = 12.5% damage reduction; 4 Rakukajas = 50% damage reduction. Rakukaja doesn't alter your defense stats at all.

In fairness, it also doesn't really matter, since Reflect nulls enough damage in and of it's self to render the straight-up slugfest idea unworkable. Even if all six get up and running, two will have to fail to deal damage and a third will deal an often-evaded physical. If you see Vanity as reflectable, Yuna wins sometime next year off doubles, just by spamming Curaga onto an Orb.

Well...unless you allow self-targetting, which not even DDS PCs can do with their spells without a status ailment applied to them, IIRC. ...At which point Jenna probably should have all her Orbs self-target MT spells for massive damage against any enemy ever as the spells bounce off them... Kinda offensive as an idea, it's nowhere near possible in-game.

[InfinityDragon]

Again: I don't view it as possible to resist "nonelemental"; that is a contradiction. One can only resist elements; non-elemental is not an element but the lack of one. The only conclusion that can be drawn here is that Almighty is more like PS4 Gravity or FFX Holy; it's -almost- non-elemental, but the presence of Jenna (and another enemy?) indicate that it is not quite.

Or you can interpret non-elemental to mean "damage type that is not a specific listed element" which is more likely the case; it's not Fire, Earth, Wind, Water, Electric, Holy, or Dark damage, so why not just call it Non-elemental/Almighty/Universal damage. This doesn't mean in the slightest that this damage type cannot be resisted, just that most games choose not to. Other games will have the occasional ultra rare enemy that does resist it (Dover resists Universal damage in BoF5, Jenna resists Almighty damage in DDS1).

For future reference, Huang Long is immune to Almighty (and everything else) when he's in Shield Mode.

I allow bosses formchains, unless there is revival or healing in between, or if the battles are separate. However I chose to ignore Jenna 2 before I thought that battle was a formchain, and will continue to do so.

So, before you knew the entirety of Jenna's forms was an entire valid form chain, you chose to ignore the final form, and after you find out that the entire form chain is valid you still disregard the final form...because you can't get your head around the idea that bosses can and often do have multiple parts, or because you don't want to change an already established voting pattern (despite the previous pattern being made on a mistaken assumption, and thus wrong)?

In Jenna's case, it's.. reasonable to allow both on and off, but chaining the fight makes her a bluelike and I'm not convinced anyway I see that kind of chaining as legal (Tend to make those types of duellers start at the end of their chain)a, so yeah.

If Jenna's fully legal form is Bluelike, then that should have been fleshed out and discussed before ranking her (it's up in the air if Jenna is truly Bluelike; Ghaleon beats the hell out of her, for one). Handicapping an already ranked character because you find out it's considerably more powerful than you originally thought is ludicrous. Ask to have the character removed if you think it's too powerful and ruins the balance in the DL, or just don't nominate her often.

And really, the arguments of AI vs physical limitation on Jenna 2 are far stronger than most bosses(Cores: Can she pull out the one she needs every time? Can she choose which to use for Reincarnate?), the core issue is a mess(She entirely relies on support

The AI issues are no greater than any other boss, since the general principle is to allow full AI unless there is explicit evidence that certain conditions need to be met.

As for relying on support...people allow Yuna Aeons for support, which is an unquestionably more tenuous an allowance than the Cores. People don't like the Cores because it makes Jenna a multipart boss, which they don't like (a pretty pathetic argument, really, but that's the reason).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Or you can interpret non-elemental to mean "damage type that is not a specific listed element" which is more likely the case; it's not Fire, Earth, Wind, Water, Electric, Holy, or Dark damage, so why not just call it Non-elemental/Almighty/Universal damage.

Because non-elemental isn't an element. Non-elemental. Not elemental. Is not an element. That is what the word means. It does not function like an element, and therefore Almighty, since it DOES function like an element, is not non-elemental, but rather an extremely rare element possibly unique to DDS/SMT.

It's not fire/wind/water/etc.? So what? Same goes for S5 Sun element. That's still elemental, and I wouldn't hype Sun resistance as non-elemental resistance in the DL.

Almighty resistance is rarer than other elemental resistance in DDS? Again, so what? FFX Holy resistance is so rare we thought the element didn't exist for a while. PS4 Gra spells are reacted to abnormally by something like three enemies in the entire game.

Honestly I'm not quite sure why an element with a name like "Almighty" (which doesn't even sound especially unalligned!) is getting passed off as non-elemental. The only argument I can see is that it "mostly" acts like it, but I've already given examples that show that "mostly" isn't good enough in this case.

If Jenna's fully legal form is Bluelike, then that should have been fleshed out and discussed before ranking her

But the fact that supposedly makes her Bluelike (like you, I won't get into whether she is or not) wasn't known at the time she was ranked. It's not reasonable to hold off on ranking someone because there may be facts that aren't yet known about her, since that can apply to just about every dueller ever.

You can't really fault anyone for taking views to avoid a dueller being Bluelike, though I agree that the better solution is not to rank such people in the first place.

because you can't get your head around the idea that bosses can and often do have multiple parts

Multiple parts which frequently aren't allowed; this isn't just a personal quirk. And even if it were, you of all people are in little position to attack others over unusual views.

The AI issues are no greater than any other boss, since the general principle is to allow full AI unless there is explicit evidence that certain conditions need to be met.

Jenna summoning a random core could be considered akin to Indiscriminate choosing a random spell, an extremely common view. Unlike the Indiscriminate case, though, there is a significant split in the ability's usefulness depending on if the effects are random or chosen.

This is why headache exists. There's further split in that some people (you) allow her to start with the cores, others (Monkey) would only have them be summoned, and still others might view them as illegal entirely.

[Niu]

The existance of FF7 Gravity-elemental physicals mean FF7 Gravity attacks are not Gravity elemental, but physical. Period.

Which is false. Attacks like Super Nova are percentage attacks that doesn't associate itself with gravity element. Gravity element all use pecentage type damage, but percentage type damage don't always associates itself with gravity. Gravity damage always associates itself with precentage damage, but percentage damage associates itself in other attacks. Gravity immunity only blocks percentage damage if it is associates only with gravity element. The end.

[Niu]

Almost forget to mention this.
Anima's Chaotic D. is NOT physical nor non elemental. It uses a uber special element just for itself that is seperated from all other element types. And the ways of damage reduction for this unqiue element is none present in the game itself and penetrates all damage reducing effects other spells adds.
Further more, if you allow International version, Chaotic D. becomes 99999x18 which is totaal overkill.

[Niu]

Also, I don't recall Vanity being reflectable at all, nor do I remember it hitting weakness on Cielo.  From what I noticed, it IS an Almighty attack overall, but the statuses themselves still check their respective immunities.

And I forget again, this part is entirely correct.

[Meeplelard]

Further more, if you allow International version, Chaotic D. becomes 99999x18 which is totaal overkill.

Note quite.  In INternational, all it did was split Anima's multiplier equally among those bunch of hits.  So in the DL, its the same 80,000 damage or whatever it is.

In game, granted, with high enough stats, it can become 99999x18, but that's not the case in the DL.

[Dark Holy Elf]

OVERDRIVE Oblivion: 99999 damage to all enemies. Non-typed damage, but subject to physical defence. (Against average defence it would do 140000, were it not for the damage cap.) 0.38x recharge time.

Just for the record.

EDIT: To be more clear, the 140000 is the figure it would do in International, rather than 80000 or 99999x18. (assuming SSG stats)

[Meeplelard]

Ok, must be remembering the damage vs. Seymour or something!

Still not 99999x18 <_<

[SnowFire]

As a random comment, re the bits about "form changing Jenna is bluelike so therefore let's not use that if there's any question..."  this is pretty much the same logic I was using two weeks or so ago re: screwing Yuna over on any judgment calls.  Yuna is insanely good, so I'm much more willing to not give her any breaks since that means she's merely a high Godlike as opposed to an uber-godlike.

[Grefter]

Expel stuff on the other hand only comes up for Jenna, the other stuff isn't ranked.  Whiiiiich I gave DNR for those reasons.

"Only" how many orbs which is a decent gap in how good she is.  Also whether you allow the form chain or not from Jenna 1 to 2.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yuna isn't Bluelike, though.

Defeated by Freya, 14 to 5
Defeated by Ash Lambert, 23 to 17
Defeated by Tir McDohl, 55 to 9
Defeated by Kefka, 60 to 27
Defeated by Sephiroth, 69 to 44
Defeated by Myria, 68 to 50

While most would see the Freya and Ash results going the other way now, Bluelikes do not generally lose to even as many as four Godlikes... and there are a bunch of others who would be seen as Yuna slayers to boot, from Orlandu to Timelord to Piastol to Belial to Rika to Emelious, subject to an interp or two here or there.

Yuna is still competitive in Godlike (generally not even seen as the best). The argument being put forth by Super is that Jenna under  certain favourable interpretations is not - that is to say, she's too good, overpowered, Bluelike, whatever you want to call it.

Nerfing people who are simply too good for the DL is a contraversial but justifiable practice. Nerfing those who are balanced (by the other High Godlikes, such as Myria, Fou-Lu, Sephiroth, Zophar, etc.) seems difficult to defend. If you do it for only one or two High Godlikes, you're a hypocrite playing favourites; start doing it for the lot of them and you cheapen the idea of letting people fight as their games present them. Not to mention you introduce the very ugly prospect of where you draw the line - I don't think that's something any of us are unbiased enough to do.

Or more simply, nerfing someone should be used as an absolute last resort.

[InfinityDragon]

Because non-elemental isn't an element. Non-elemental. Not elemental. Is not an element. That is what the word means. It does not function like an element, and therefore Almighty, since it DOES function like an element, is not non-elemental, but rather an extremely rare element possibly unique to DDS/SMT.

You're losing the forest for the trees in trying to argue this on semantics. Yeah, it's called non-elemental...because it isn't in the enumerated list of other elements the game has. What else would it be called? "Attack that doesn't fall into the other elemental categories because we already named them all!"? More to the point, non-elemental is a term WE have come up with because of its convenience. Very few games actually label their attacks as non-elemental. In most games, what we call non-elemental attacks simply have an attack type that enemies neither resist nor have a weakness to. This does not mean that it cannot be resisted or strike a weakness. EVERY attack has an attack type; it is an impossibility to not have one, and there is no reason why that attack type cannot be resisted or strike a weakness (otherwise we get back to the semantic "no, character A doesn't resist Fire damage, he resists heat damage" problem).

Multiple parts which frequently aren't allowed; this isn't just a personal quirk. And even if it were, you of all people are in little position to attack others over unusual views.

Uh...what? I can criticize unusual views as often as I want if the underlying logic is shoddy. Having my own unusual views does not preclude me at all from criticizing the poor logic that people use to defend their views. Likewise, anyone is free to criticize the logic in my views if my logic is poor.

The logic behind not allowing multipart bosses is, quite frankly, crap. It's not hard to interpret, so the "noes!! it mkes my head hurt ;.;" argument is pretty much invalid. Does it make the bosses too powerful? Usually not, otherwise they'd be near impossible to beat in-game. Besides, there are other ways to deal with overpowered Godlikes outside neutering them because they kill your precious fan favorites and go on tears (i.e. retire them if they're a blatant problem).

I'm open for good arguments on why parts should be banned, but I have yet to hear one.

Expel stuff on the other hand only comes up for Jenna, the other stuff isn't ranked.  Whiiiiich I gave DNR for those reasons.

Expel only comes up for Jenna because she's the only ranked DDS boss. This should be obvious. Not allowing Jenna's final form because Expel is hard to interpret...makes no sense at all, seeing as how Jenna immunes Expel in all her forms.

"Only" how many orbs which is a decent gap in how good she is.

She starts with all 6 in-game. There is absolutely no reason not to allow the same in the DL. If you think it's a headache because you don't allow multipart bosses, well that's your own problem for having such an ill supported view in the first place. Having crappy views like that is what causes the headaches, and is not some inherent problem with Jenna as a dueler.

Also whether you allow the form chain or not from Jenna 1 to 2.

Anyone who doesn't allow Jenna her final form, but does allow other intra-battle form changing bosses should go eat cyanide cookies. If someone strictly allows only one form in the DL, regardless of if its intra-battle or not, and applies that standard indiscriminately, then there is no headache; Jenna would not be allowed her final form under such an interpretation.

[Meeplelard]

This reminds me of the Zophar argument.

In that there was a question of "Chris lost to Zophar, who the hell beats him when his supposed slayers don't?"

I remember having to explain that those who claimed Chris = Zophar Slayer were jumping to conclusions of "Magic Immunity trick faster than Fate Storm = Win!" when that wasn't the case, as Chris showed.  Then went to show the number of characters who actually have, at very least, some argument for beating Zophar, and the list wasn't large, but there were still a number of them.

Yuna's in the same boat really.  As Elfboy noted, there are a bunch of people who just flat out destroy Yuna (like Tir, who many agree is faster, and Yuna has nothing in the way of equipment to guard vs. perfect Instant Death), and people who at least have some argument for beating her (Kefka, for example, depends on how you respect his speed and her evasion; the fact that he actually beat Yuna when they fought is proof that there's enough people willing to view things in his favor, so the interp isn't that farfetched.)

Yuna's really good; one of the reasons people don't like her is cause she's really good based off a boring strategy of "Go First -> Win!" which doesn't really have any flaws to it, and she's fast to add insult to injury, so her matches are basically "does she get a turn? If yes, win! If not, no." 

Jenna though?  Lets take a look at what happens with a form chaining:

A. Her first form is now pretty much just a roadblock.  The HP of each shift is pathetic, and you can't do more damage to just blast through this phase.  This means she suddenly absorbs 4 hits from someone.
B. However, said "roadblock" also has 2 shots of absolutely killer damage.  Even the most durable of bosses will be taking a hit from Bahairava, let alone 2 will kill most (people like Fou-lu and Myria1 who absolutely scoff at physicals are the only ones I can think of offhand who shrug the attack off.)
C. This form also has Debilitate; chalk up the ability to kill all stats between Baharaiva's (at least, from what I understand, she can use this in the form that doesn't have Baharaiva; I never saw either attack)
D. Once you get through that first form? Now she's got this form that's immune to the big 3 elements, alongside Earth and Wind (not uncommon Elements, keep in mind), and physical immunity to boot, that can is actually durable, and can rack up damage quickly.

There's...I dunno.  How many duelers can actually deal with all that.  I mean, yeah, Jade beat Jenna...assuming she had one form.  The form shifting thing, however?  Now suddenly he has to deal with that same Form 2 with 2 Baharaiva's lowering his HP dramatically, which isn't pretty.
And Jade's not what we call a Low Godlike either.

The point is...Jenna becomes ridiculously good to the point of near unbeatable in the DL; you have to survive 2 Baharaiva's, AND then manage to beat her final form's defensive game, with the issue of probably taking a hit to your stats (how big of one, not sure, but its still insult to injury.)

You'll notice there's a big difference between Form Chained Jenna and Yuna suddenly; the number of duelers Jenna Form Chained can't beat is far less than Yuna's.

In fact, the sole reason we DIDN'T rank Blue from SaGa Frontier? Cause he is too good.  There's no reason to not allow that Overdrive Loop since he has full claim to it in game.  This Loop ends up having him do...what? 80 Mega Wind Blasts before running out of MP?  That's 240k SaGa Frontier damage, NOT SOMETHING ANYONE CAN REALISTICALLY SURVIVE.  What about Magic Immunes?  Still not winning it; Blue can squeeze out enough Physical damage from Light Sword or just equipping Guns (I see no problem with letting Blue equip a Gun, just not allowing him techs or stats from it; its akin to allowing Gordon Axes in the DL for a damage boost on his uniques but not Axe Techs, as far as I'm concerned.)  What about PCs who are faster? Don't exist, barring Time Lord, since Overdrive has initiative (hence why the argument of "You must survive Overdrive to win" comes up with Timelord before anything else does; granted, Timelord's damage < Blue's Damage, let alone he also lacks Stasis Rune, hence why TImelord can be beaten)

yeah, there's a clear line between "High Godlike with small number of spoilers" and "Godlike that can't realistically lose ever."  Yuna's clearly the former, Jenna Form Chained is the latter.

[SnowFire]

Ack, reply is somewhat out of date because I forgot to hit submit.

Anyway, of those who defeated Yuna listed, if I'm not doing style voting or anti-voting...  Yuna beats Freya clearly (Grand Summon if nothing else to get around the evasion).  Can't say about Ash, and apparently Sephiroth is faster?  (Haven't checked myself.)  But Kefka and Myria?  Straight Aeonless Yuna defeats Myria and Kefka cleanly to me, no need for Aeons.  So I'd say that Yuna got robbed a lot there even given my interpretation (I know I voted for Myria over Yuna).

Yuna unleashed loses to two things, as best I can tell: A faster character with accurate and basically fatal status (Tir, Rika) or else a high-HP boss with a dispel move that's considered to work on Aeons that can also handle Aeonless Yuna.  Anything that could tank through a full Aeon Parade including Anima and the Magus Sisters in straight combat is probably uber-godike itself - again, arguably Yuri might be able to take the non-Anima parts, but he'd still lose to Grand Summon anyway.

Meeplelard: If it was "get a turn, win, don't get a turn, lose," that in some ways wouldn't be so bad.  The problem is that there are plenty of ways to be faster than Yuna and still lose - Orlandu loses to fully powered Yuna, for example, while he probably beats Aeonless Yuna.  You need to be able to win right away on your very fast first turn.

[Grefter]

It adds extra layers of difficulty on the problem.  Jenna 2 is just far to messy for me to consider in the DL as a positive rank.  I do not vote on it because of this.  The effect on the starting with or without orbs is huge, I consider with orbs to be to broken.  Do I let her start with orbs?  If not what do I do with other multipart bosses that revive parts?  Do I then make them spend turns reviving their own body parts?

Do I want to have to refurbish my system due to one boss?  No.  Do I want to make special exceptions?  No.

So she gets treated like Pokemon, I do not think it is a good rank therefore I do not vote.  She is lucky she has form 1 that I find acceptable.  Edit - Actually let me clarify a bit there.  Not only do I find form 1 acceptable I find it infinitely more interesting than the orb form as well.  I will take one of the better unique tricks with a form chain boss over Wind Reincarnation style boss with LALW I TAKE NO DAMAGE shit thrown in.

[InfinityDragon]

Who beats form chained Jenna? First, Jenna is average speed, so any godlike faster than her likely avoids one Debilitate right off the bat, leaving one Debilitate to deal with. Second, plenty of high tier godlikes are durable enough or have tricks to avoid Bhairava damage.

Ghaleon: Timed Chaos Shields absorb the Bhairavas. Varied MT magic attacks rape the Cores.
Myria: Tanks two Bhairavas, varied MT magic tears through the cores.
Fou Lu: See Myria
Ryu3: Uses meat shields to deal with Bhairava, splatters with Trygon after that.
Ryu4: Use Holy Circle to avoid the first Bhairava, Kaiser can tank the second Bhairava. Heal and use MT magic to wipe out the cores.
Zophar: Has an argument for tanking two Bhairavas. Absolute slaughter after that.
Teepo: Also has an argument for tanking two Bhairavas, and has MT magic to mop up the cores.

If you don't view Expel immunity as immunity to Holy damage, the list arguably gets bigger. If you don't view 90% resistance to Almighty as reducing non-elemental attacks in other games, then it gets even bigger.

Even without that, however, Jenna should easily lose to 5 godlikes, and has a case for losing to 2 more. She's a high godlike, sure, but is balanced out by other high godlikes. That is not Bluelike material.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, it's called non-elemental...because it isn't in the enumerated list of other elements the game has.

No. Let's be very clear about this. It's non-elemental because it's not an element at all. This is not semantics in the slightest.

What you're doing is arguing both that Almighty is elemental (provable), that Anima's Oblivion is elemental (you have to make up an element for this, since absolutely NOTHING reacts to it in an elemental-like way, but I guess you can...), and then furthermore, you are arguing they are the -same- element with no evidence whatsoever supporting this. It's more than a bit baffling.

The concept of non-elemental exists. It's a concept, not an element. Attacks can have one element (your standard fire spell), two elements (Sirocco or Merton), four elements (a tetra elementalstrike weapon in FFX), or... zero. If you argue that non-elemental needs its own "element", then wouldn't, say, the specific triple-combination of Fire+Ice+Water need its own "element" too?

It's not hard to interpret

Actually, yes it is. We generally see matches as duels, which in turn tends to mean one character against one character. Game mechanics wise, this should make multipart bosses entirely impossible. You can fall to drawing lines with plot of course... but where do you draw them? The easiest offhand seems to be physical attachment to one's own body... buuut Jenna's cores clearly aren't attached to her, so you can't be using that one. How about, instead, anything that the boss fights with is fair game? Doesn't work, then Lezard would get his Dragon-Tooth Warriors. Hell, then Liz would get Ard.

There is no clear line. And that's the beginning of potential difficulties.

While I'm sure we all admire your confidence, to call the fact that people struggle with this "crap" is showing a hell of a lot of disrespect to your fellow voters.

Anyone who doesn't allow Jenna her final form, but does so for other intra-battle form changing bosses should go eat cyanide cookies.

Oh? But we're already drawing arbitrary lines, allowing Jenna's support but not Lezard's or Liz's or Sarah's. Why not draw some more? Ban formchanges that have a significant cutscene in the middle would be an easy one, for instance - isn't that why Jenna was kneejerked to be separate battles by almost everyone until your tests? Or, more pertinently to the rest of this discussion, banning formshifting if it would make the dueller too strong to be ranked.

Yuna unleashed loses to two things, as best I can tell: A faster character with accurate and basically fatal status (Tir, Rika) or else a high-HP boss with a dispel move that's considered to work on Aeons that can also handle Aeonless Yuna.

There's also faster enemies who can OHKO her (this isn't especially hard physically, besides dealing with the evasion).

Regardless, while it's enlightening to know some of the people you see beating or losing to Yuna (and I'm rather curious on one or two of them, but the last thing this topic needs is another tangent), you completely dodged my point. Which is: Yuna, even "unleashed" as you put it, loses to quite a fair number of people. So why nerf her?