Season 41, Week 5 - Gades vs. Kharg. Elfboy dies of brain anneurysm.

[Dark Holy Elf]

But say Flare is hitting a BoF4 enemy instead (which does treat Magic as an enumerated element). Then I'd argue that you'd look to see how that target affects pure Magic damage, rather than claim Flare ignores the resistance entirely because it's "non-elemental."

And I wouldn't. See Shale's reasoning. A non-elemental attack can be assigned an element in the defender's system if it is reasonable to do so. However, it must be assigned this element for positive properties it DOES have (e.g. Flare is considered a magical attack in FFX, so we give it the Magic element in BoF4.).

only that they have an element that is left unnamed, and that this unnamed element can still be resisted like any other element.

So wait, Flare has an element IN ADDITION to magic? So not only have you arbitrarily decided everything needs at least one element type, now everything needs at least TWO?

Given that we haven't yet accepted your initial premise that even one is required, this argument is impossible to swallow.

If Flare does indeed need one minimum element, then it already has it: magic. An element we already know isn't Almighty, since Bufudyne is also clearly "Magic" (I assume you'd treat it as such in BoF4) and isn't Almighty.

I can't see how you can call Flare Almighty, and have even more trouble seeing how you can simultaneously call Flare and Oblivion Almighty, when the two attacks have literally NOTHING in common. Except, say, both of them being "not fire elemental", but you and I both agree that you can't react to an attack's lack of element, only its element.

The reasons I've given are completely different that this (and really don't need to be repeated for the umpteenth time).

They can stand to be repeated now, then, since otherwise I don't see how this worthless argument is important.

I don't see how it is worth less than nothing.

Then let me spell it out for you.

1. Gameplay backing: Does not exist. Yuna can always summon an aeon whenever her opponent doesn't have the same aeon out. So we dive into the realm of a pure plot argument.
2. Plot backing: Highly tenuous. You are extrapolating from the fact that Bahamut won't fight Bahamut that it is the same Bahamut. This is at leat partially contradicted by the game's definition of an aeon, then, since it's pretty clear that physically they are different beings (constructed from different pyreflies). But even accepting your views, we have something slightly more than nothing, since it is mere conjecture.
3. Contradiction with existing DL policy: even if Yuna's Bahamut was Isaaru's Bahamut, it doesn't matter, since no other PC can use Bahamut - the parallel with Ghaleon's Sword and the Dragon Buster and the Bright Shield Rune beat you over the head yet again. We're now down to less than nothing.

[Taishyr]

Problem with the Pyreflies argument, it seems to me, is that while it's a different construct of fireflies it is the same will - the fayth - that builds and controls it, with the pyreflies just making a convenient body. This being said, I agree with your definitions beside that.

(Still don't allow the Aeons, but that's a moot point. I see where you're coming from on those statements.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

The summoner is explicitly stated to both build and control it, though, contrary to what you are claiming.

[Taishyr]

I thought you said it had some form of sentience outside the summoner, though, related to the fayth. Yes, the summoner calls the pyreflies together, assembles the aeon and controls it. ...that doesn't mean that - oh, wait. Sorry, I made a slip in my statement, now I see your problem.

"Problem with the Pyreflies argument, it seems to me, is that while it's a different construct of fireflies it is the same will - the fayth - that builds and controls it, with the pyreflies just making a convenient body. This being said, I agree with your definitions beside that."

should read

"Problem with the Pyreflies argument, it seems to me, is that while it's a different construct of fireflies it is the same will - the fayth - that is its core, with the pyreflies just making a convenient body built and controlled by the summoner. This being said, I agree with your definitions beside that."

I know what I meant, my explanation was shitty. I blame Chinese class. You try reading six foreign-language short stories in an hour and answering a myriad of questions, it'll break your brain too.

[Dark Holy Elf]

That I don't doubt.

Anyway, the if the aeon's will is that of the fayth (which isn't entirely clear, but seems reasonably likely; at the very least there is some base personality there), then it clearly is bent and compelled by its summoner (hence the Bahamut and Anima examples I've already given).

Granted, it's still possible to conclude that even that much external will is cause for banning something. But I feel like that should take a lot of DL bosses with it?

[Taishyr]

Mmm. Arguably, but that isn't my issue. To me, we ranked Yuna. We did not rank the external will she can call and force to her aid. Now, your argument - it's just as much a weapon to her as anything else, and -she- is the one calling it forth, something no one else ranked can do - is... as valid as mine, so it's personal choice which to take.

Regarding the bosses, to me we rank how they present themselves in their forms - so Tony gets his mech (notably, beating up the mech beats him and he is in full control of its non-sentience, so it passes both my tests anyway), and you can beat pretty much every other boss by beating them directly; you don't have to go through a bunch of other sentients (controlled by the initial one or not) to beat the initial sentient. Am I making sense here? I'm afraid I'm not, but it makes sense to me again.

[BaconForTheSoul]

You're saying if Yuna were a boss we'd only have HER form specifically and not the 7 Aeons she makes you fight first I believe.  The problem here is that no boss that I can think of in any game works like this.  Instead, they simply give a boss multiple forms that you have to work your way through.  Yuna with her Aeons is a similar deal, just like Ryu3 is.  They're PCs that have multiple parts that you have to work your way through to win.  (Although unlike bosses their parts can be bypassed if they don't get a turn.)

Either way, your logic for why Yuna can't summon makes sense, even if I disagree with it.  IDs... doesn't really make sense and doesn't seem to be backed up at all, and doesn't seem to be the same for all the Aeons.

I just can't help but wonder if anyone would disallow Aeons if they were all 1/3 as strong as they are...

Also, Doom2 plot. (Greater than Megaman plot!)

[InfinityDragon]

And I wouldn't. See Shale's reasoning. A non-elemental attack can be assigned an element in the defender's system if it is reasonable to do so. However, it must be assigned this element for positive properties it DOES have (e.g. Flare is considered a magical attack in FFX, so we give it the Magic element in BoF4.).

You have to make an assumption each and every time you do this. It's doable, but again, more assumption=less likely to be true. It's simpler to just assume that all attacks are comprised of at least one element. This also is truer to the definition of the term "element" and does not result in the absurdity of an attack having no element at all.

So wait, Flare has an element IN ADDITION to magic? So not only have you arbitrarily decided everything needs at least one element type, now everything needs at least TWO?

Learn to read everything carefully...seriously. I didn't say this, imply this, or suggest this. In fact, I explicitly stated that Flare just needs to have *one* element and everything is A-OK. You can call it Magic if you want (which would make, say, Firaga Magic+Fire), but you aren't necessarily pigeonholed into doing so.

If Flare does indeed need one minimum element, then it already has it: magic. An element we already know isn't Almighty, since Bufudyne is also clearly "Magic" (I assume you'd treat it as such in BoF4) and isn't Almighty.

More conflation. Almighty isn't an attack, Bufudyne is; you can't compare the two directly. If you want to compare directly, look to an Almighty attack.

Going by your logic: Bufudyne = Magic + Ice; Megido = Almighty + Magic

Now, from here you *could* state that because Jenna takes full damage from Ice, but not from Megido, Jenna is neutral to Ice and Magic and resists Almighty damage (meaning Flare would deal full damage). This is a valid view, as I've said before, assuming you consider Flare to be Magic as opposed "Undefined" elemental.

1. Gameplay backing: Does not exist. Yuna can always summon an aeon whenever her opponent doesn't have the same aeon out. So we dive into the realm of a pure plot argument.

Nope, the gameplay backing is there, you just skipped over the key part: "whenever her opponent doesn't have the same aeon out." It's not plot at all. If Summoner A is using Aeon X, Summoner B cannot use Aeon X. This, without any other assumptions, means Aeon X is unique and cannot be used by two Summoners at the same time.

2. Plot backing: Highly tenuous. You are extrapolating from the fact that Bahamut won't fight Bahamut that it is the same Bahamut. This is at leat partially contradicted by the game's definition of an aeon, then, since it's pretty clear that physically they are different beings (constructed from different pyreflies).

Partially contradicted, yes, but not completely because the dual components of an Aeon are integral to the plot (even you mentioned this). If a key component, the fayth itself, cannot be summoned to two places at once, then the summoning fails, regardless if the pyrefly constructions are different. This means an Aeons, in its totality, is still unique and cannot be in two places at the same time.

3. Contradiction with existing DL policy: even if Yuna's Bahamut was Isaaru's Bahamut, it doesn't matter, since no other PC can use Bahamut - the parallel with Ghaleon's Sword and the Dragon Buster and the Bright Shield Rune beat you over the head yet again. We're now down to less than nothing.

All those examples only exist in plot only; they have no relevant impact on gameplay. The second Rose can go around using the Dragon Buster skill to instantly slay dragons, then there might be an argument, but Rose's Dragon Buster weapon acts completely differently than Lloyd's.

Arguments for Aeons not being unique exist in both the gameplay and the plot.

[SageAcrin]

We don't. In most systems (granted, not all, as things like Pokemon and BoF4 exist where everything has an element), elemental affinity is optional.

Ironically BoF4 has one of the clearest examples of non-elemental to date due entirely *to* the massive elemental affinities to everything ever. They denote non-typed for Ebonfire and Soul Rend in-game, clearly, and BoF4's mechanics have been disassembled enough to find out that there is indeed no elemental affinity to either.

(Pokemon still mechanically has non-elemental in Struggle and the status version of Curse; Another example of the game being disassembled enough to know that there's no elemental flags for either. But no one actually cares if you see them as non-elemental or just "???" Elemental because both suck.)

I just can't help but wonder if anyone would disallow Aeons if they were all 1/3 as strong as they are...

Probably.

They just wouldn't be so drat loud about it.

People disallow Chongara's summons and Guv's Call Team. Cases aren't the same, of course, worse in fact. No demonstratable power link at all to the summons with Chongara-the only reason he can summon them, plotwise, is 'cause he keeps 'em in a pot. Call Team has a link to Guv gameplaywise, and plotwise he's supposed to be the one building them up into champions and such, but it's not a direct manifestation of his power per se, again unlike Yuna.

I think the problem with the elemental affinity thing is that you're treating it like a universe and not a fabrication of someone's mind, ID. Non-elemental is a concept denoting the lack of something, true. One which the very programmer may well subscribe to and have intended to have been in their game. Certainly BoF4 had a clear coder intention to make non-elemental attacks, for instance, simply by not treating them at all like other attacks.

Seeing as how quibbling with the creators of a media about their intent when they make something has always struck me as goofy, I kinda wonder why you're continuing to. >_> Games have referred to their own attacks as non-elemental; Saying something can't exist in a video game when the coders coded it into existance and said "This is non-elemental." is...well, silly.

[Taishyr]

Sorry, the boss analogy was mainly just in response to the problems I don't see regarding most the DL bosses. To we, we do just have Yuna's form specifically, and not the others involved.

...and I put the analogy... okay, yeah, I see your confusion. Again, apologies. Effectively, though, if you had a boss set up exactly like Yuna (she gets a turn, summons X, Y, Z, N, Q, P, A, and TTT) I'd give her just what she has when she would be alone. Even if the "summons" suck. >_> It's something we only really see vaguely in one place - Ghaleon's Chaos Shield or whatever it is. (Which is not a sentient protecting him, I don't think. Is it? If so, uh sorry Ghaleon. >_> Still looks like he's a high Godlike by how I take bosses, but...)

(Idly, I just thought of one example. Kato is just solo Kato, for me, I think, though he has an argument as his battle ends when he dies. I don't think I buy it, but hey.)

And Sage raises a good point; I ban Guv's Call Team, even more quickly than I'd ban Yuna's aeons which have an argument. Chongara you can just kill without worrying about his sum... no, wait, if there's still team members out his team's still alive. Yeah, I'd likely ban them or force the battle to end if Chongara fell.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Just a ponderance, but if Yuna were to ever fight, say, Garnet or Rydia (oh the slaughter!), would they be allowed to summon Bahamut against Yuna's Bahamut?

The reverse of that: plotwise, Garnet has her Eidolons stored somewhere -inside- of her, given the scenes where Brahne 'extracted' them. So conceivably Yuna shouldn't be able to summon Ifrit, Shiva, or Bahamut against her?


Also, I think was Taishyr was getting at with most DL Bosses losing a lot of power if you disallowed abilities that were sentient - Sephiroth loses everything but his temp PC form if he doesn't have Jenova, Kefka's back to his Narshe form without the Goddesses, Lyon can't even be ranked without his demon (FE8), Avalon, Melfice, and any of the True-Runebearers all run into problems if you disallow a character to use another sentient beings' power.

The Yuna summoning problem is unique in that the Aeons replace her HP bar, making the battle less of a duel and more of a 7 vs. 1 battle, which is pretty broken.  As for why some people disallow the M3, Yojimbo, and Anima - I think it has to do with the fact that those 3 Aeons are optional and not given to Yuna by plot, so there's a very good chance you'll get to the endgame without them. Some people probably feel these Aeons are 'aftergame', by that logic.

The elemental debate is getting repetitive, but I'll add that some people make arguments that spells/skills from games without elements (PSII comes to mind) should/could be assigned elements based on the animations/names of the spell/skill. With something as arbitrary as -this- view going around, the idea that non-elemental can't exist seems flimsy. Interesting argument, though. I think it's nice to see some debate around here.

-Djinn

[Ultradude]

Just a ponderance, but if Yuna were to ever fight, say, Garnet or Rydia (oh the slaughter!), would they be allowed to summon Bahamut against Yuna's Bahamut?

The reverse of that: plotwise, Garnet has her Eidolons stored somewhere -inside- of her, given the scenes where Brahne 'extracted' them. So conceivably Yuna shouldn't be able to summon Ifrit, Shiva, or Bahamut against her?

For all intents and purposes, I'd just consider every Bahamut to be an entirely different entity, just as I consider every FF to be an entirely different universe. So, Yuna's Bahamut and Garnet's Bahamut are not the same beings.

[SageAcrin]

It's an interesting question that doesn't really matter enough to me to figure out, since Valefor should trash both pretty well if I'm not mistaken.

[Taishyr]

Valefor is wicked fun and is the one reason I'm sad I don't think I'd support ranking aeons. >_>

[Luther Lansfeld]

I definitely treat the FFs as different universes, personally. I mean, I guess FF12 and FFTA or whatever are!!! but who cares.

The only real thing about Yuna that I do is ban the Magus Sisters. I have no problem with someone using someone else to fight, but having three people out just seems a bit weird to me. Whatever~

[BaconForTheSoul]

The Yuna summoning problem is unique in that the Aeons replace her HP bar, making the battle less of a duel and more of a 7 vs. 1 battle, which is pretty broken.  As for why some people disallow the M3, Yojimbo, and Anima - I think it has to do with the fact that those 3 Aeons are optional and not given to Yuna by plot, so there's a very good chance you'll get to the endgame without them. Some people probably feel these Aeons are 'aftergame', by that logic.

Optional doesn't mean unusable.  A slew of fighters have "optional" best weapons that they are still allowed.

As for post game.  Yojimbo is basically thrown at you and the only argument I could see to not getting him is being too poor.  Anima is a bit more off the beaten track, but the boss you fight in that area has 23k HP.  This is hardly post game.

Magus 3 I could see disallowing for a few reasons though.  AI issues as well as the extra farming it takes.  Although if you disallow Magus 3 I can't really see allowing FFX Celestial weapons since most of them take even more work.

[Ultradude]

I'd only disallow Magus Three on AI issues. This is the same reason that I might be inclined to ban Call Team on Guv, while allowing Yuna to use her Aeons, if I'd actually go and play DQ8. The Aeons replace the party, but the player is in control of everything the Aeons do, whereas the M3 act on their own AI to determine how they attack.

I got Anima pretty easily myself, though I skipped Yojimbo since I knew I'd never want to part with the money, nor ever save up enough to make it very useful. No matter what healing magic I have, I'm always a chronic potion buyer in RPGs, so I'll usually have a massive stock of potions that constantly gets more added to it when I can spare the money.

Valefor and Shiva are probably the only Aeons that really interest me much. I love Valefor's "oh, you're that slow? Good luck ever getting a turn!" because it spoils a lot of odd duelers. Of course, he'd end up spoiling someone I really like at some point and pissing me off, but gotta take the good with the bad (Valefor for NR next time?)

[VySaika]

i could seriously get behind some Valefor for NR hype, yeah.

[hinode]

The 3 targets part of Magus Trio is rather problematic for me on paper, but I'm much much harsher on support/multi-target "duellers" in the DL than say, ID, is.

Between that and the massive AI headaches I'm fairly sure I'll ban them whenever I actually get a PS2 to play FFX on.

[Eternalspirit]

And what does this elemental garbage argument boil down to? Elements don't exist. Every single attack in every single game in existence can be defined as one thing: they are formulas hard-coded into the game that describe the amount of damage the attack does. Elements, attack types, etc. simply do not exist. They are just a number, further modified by flags that tell the game the number is to be treated in various ways. If anyone wants to argue this, be my guest, but it is something that I don't see any possible argument against. Now I go sleep, bye.

[Otter]

This also is truer to the definition of the term "element" and does not result in the absurdity of an attack having no element at all.

If it really makes you feel better, you can think of "nonelemental" as its own element.  Characteristic of this element is that nothing has any resistance to it.

And what does this elemental garbage argument boil down to? Elements don't exist. Every single attack in every single game in existence can be defined as one thing: they are formulas hard-coded into the game that describe the amount of damage the attack does. Elements, attack types, etc. simply do not exist. They are just a number, further modified by flags that tell the game the number is to be treated in various ways. If anyone wants to argue this, be my guest, but it is something that I don't see any possible argument against. Now I go sleep, bye.

And what does this paragraph boil down to?  Paragraphs don't exist.  Every single paragraph in every single page in existence can be defined as one thing: they are words hard-coded into the page that describe the amount of bullshit the paragraph contains.  Paragraphs, sentences, etc. simply do not exist.  They are just words, further modified by punctuation that tell the reader the word is to be treated in various ways.  If anyone wants to argue this, be my guest, but it is something that I don't see any possible argument against.  Now I go sleep, bye.

[Grefter]

The DL and its whole thing is built upon conceptual ideas based around flags of things in games.  Meh.  We are extrapolating non-universal concepts into a functioning framework so as to compare them enmasse. 

I know this is amazingly new concepts for the DL and we should all just slow down and come to terms with what we are dealing with here.

OH SHIT SOMEONE FORGOT TO PUT ON THE TRAINING WHEELS WE ARE FUCKED.

[Eternalspirit]

The DL and its whole thing is built upon conceptual ideas based around flags of things in games.  Meh.  We are extrapolating non-universal concepts into a functioning framework so as to compare them enmasse. 

I know this is amazingly new concepts for the DL and we should all just slow down and come to terms with what we are dealing with here.

OH SHIT SOMEONE FORGOT TO PUT ON THE TRAINING WHEELS WE ARE FUCKED.

Your blatant sarcasm is quite amusing. What is also amusing is this ridiculous argument over something that doesn't exist as anything more than a concept. Is it so hard to say that all attacks in a game are subject to the defensive parameters of a target, whether it be defense or magic defense (unless they ignore one, both, or are of a special type that doesn't use offensive and defensive stats for damage (such as Setzer's dice rolling attack)), and also have an attribute attached to them which may or may not further modify the damage they deal based on a monster's affinity to what has been arbitrarily called an element. Non-elemental cannot exist because an attack that is non-elemental does not have the extra attribute for an "element". It is worthless to say "non-elemental physical" or "non-elemental magical". Can it not be said that these are just a physical or magical attack? You can go so far as to say they are just non-typed if you want to. But saying non-elemental is redundant.

Also, getting into the argument about what is physical and what is magical is completely pointless because the line between them is so obscure. It is not as easy as saying physical attacks are modified by defense. I've seen attacks that hit both defense and magic defense. I've seen attacks that don't hit anything and are based on a stat other than attack or magic attack.

But to be quite honest, there doesn't need to be a standard that EVERYONE has to follow. Everyone can interpret it however they want to. What DOESN'T change EVER is the nature of an attack. Ultima will always ignore defensive parameters because that is how it's coded. No amount of interpretation will change this. I could go on and on, but I think my point has been made pretty obvious.

[Eternalspirit]

This also is truer to the definition of the term "element" and does not result in the absurdity of an attack having no element at all.

If it really makes you feel better, you can think of "nonelemental" as its own element.  Characteristic of this element is that nothing has any resistance to it.

And what does this elemental garbage argument boil down to? Elements don't exist. Every single attack in every single game in existence can be defined as one thing: they are formulas hard-coded into the game that describe the amount of damage the attack does. Elements, attack types, etc. simply do not exist. They are just a number, further modified by flags that tell the game the number is to be treated in various ways. If anyone wants to argue this, be my guest, but it is something that I don't see any possible argument against. Now I go sleep, bye.

And what does this paragraph boil down to?  Paragraphs don't exist.  Every single paragraph in every single page in existence can be defined as one thing: they are words hard-coded into the page that describe the amount of bullshit the paragraph contains.  Paragraphs, sentences, etc. simply do not exist.  They are just words, further modified by punctuation that tell the reader the word is to be treated in various ways.  If anyone wants to argue this, be my guest, but it is something that I don't see any possible argument against.  Now I go sleep, bye.

Actually, you're missing a couple of key things that make a paragraph. >.> A paragraph begins on a new line and ends with a line break!

If you want to debate the element thing with me, be my guest, but next time, use a less non-sensical argument/analogy. What you said is true, inaccurate, but true. Why would I argue against it? Lol. >_>

[Grefter]

Actually what is magic and what is physical is usually pretty easy to tell apart, stuff is usually flagged one way or the other (based on a magic power attack variable + some constant or amplified by a multiplier and hitting a magic defense variable reducing it with similar mechanics or using physical based stats for the other).  The only grey area comes with games that do weird shit and that is the whole point in that we need to incorporate these concepts into the DL. 

Because they are purely theoretical concepts and Ryu5 never has to face off against Alys from PS4 and her crazy Physical damaging Magic spells in game then it is just going to be yet another facet of the DL that not everyone agrees upon.

These big arguments over how you build up your framework are interesting and all but really goddamned stupid when a character winning or losing comes down to it and arguments tail spin off into meta framework arguments all to prove that Franz beats Zuzhen.  Edit - That isn't to say that having this kind of discussion is a bad thing, just you know, having them for three or four weeks spanning each season topic is a bit over the top and should really be done in its own topic if only to keep it all centralised.