RPGDL 2014 Season 1 Finals and Rankings

[Cmdr_King]

Godlike

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Zophar (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete)

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Chie Satonaka (Persona 4)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3)

2014-1 Rankings

For each of the following games, please vote either to Rank the game, or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20)
Dragon Quest V (11/20)
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20)
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20)
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20)
Phantasy Star II (11/20)
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20)
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20)
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20)

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have Played the game or not.  Additionally, if you object to ranking the game on non-playership grounds, please note this with a vote of Reject.

Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch
Pokémon X/Y
Shin Megami Tensei IV

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Zophar (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete): Dunno, this intuitively feels pretty good. Zophar has super-speed when he wants to so he should be able to punch past the tentacles to some extent... but enough to win? Not certain. edit: too lazy to work it out for sure, but going with my kneejerk.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series): This comes down entirely to who 2HKOs first. Stocke... does 49% to average by the lowest listed kill point, and Tengaar is virtually average magic durability on the spot (fractionally below, but it's a small fraction). Stocke barely misses the 2HKO, Tengaar doesn't miss the 2HKO on much of anything. If only Stocke's resurrection worked on living targets...

Light

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3): Mm. Could be wrong here, but to win this Luke needs to both 2HKO and hit both times (and/or land enough of his hits to 2HKO). The combination feels somewhat unlikely?

2014-1 Rankings

For each of the following games, please vote either to Rank the game, or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20): Abstain. This feels like one of those dead-end rankings but of course if people like it, who am I to stand in its way?
Dragon Quest V (11/20): Abstain. See above.
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20): Reject. Two PC game? Meh, creates some scaling issues. Bosses? Dumb Life argument plot, not to mention bosses who fight only 2 PCs are some of the swingiest by DL views. I'll pass.
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20): Rank. Pretty obvious! You could argue the DL is too FE saturated but I'd happily sacrifice FE6 upon the feast of madness to get this one in; it feels like one of the most important FEs to rank. Also HOLY CRAP CURRENT GEN GAME IN THE DL.
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20): Rank. In theory it's in the same boat as AtL2 and such, but *shrug* I've played and it find it pretty interesting in the DL.
Phantasy Star II (11/20): Reject because lol Rolf. Current DL has a big split on whether to allow overlevelled techs, Rolf is entirely defined by one and is the only PS2 dueller people care about.
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20): edit: Reject. Right, I remember the problem here, the version split. I doubt either version of the game has 11/20 and the duellers are apparently quite different from each.
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20): Rank, play Tierkreis people.
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20): Um... hmm. I like the bosses pretty well? But aside from that it's just so damn... unexciting. Abstain. Strong DNR for Volsung if this does get ranked, of course.

I could be easily argued on any abstian votes (and to a lesser extent on all other votes) so if you have a strong opinion, feel free to explain why!

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have Played the game or not.  Additionally, if you object to ranking the game on non-playership grounds, please note this with a vote of Reject.

Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten: Not played
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch: Not played
Pokémon X/Y: Played
Shin Megami Tensei IV: Not played

[Random Consonant]

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series) - Eh sure.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20) - Abstain
Dragon Quest V (11/20) - Abstain
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20) - Don't rank
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20) - Rank
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20) - Abstain
Phantasy Star II (11/20) - Abstain
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20) - Abstain
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20) - Rank
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20) - Rank so long as Volsung stays the hell out.

Have not played anything in the data mine

[SnowFire]

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series)
Hey now, Tengaar needs to 2HKO too through Stocke's crappy healing, she's only got 2 shots.  Stocke is listed at 1.21 MDur and has 29% of his durability healing, 1.21 * 1.29 = 1.59 MDur with a heal tossed in.  Tengaar deals .77 PCHP to the L4 average in the stat topic, so that would be Tengaar barely missing the effective 2HKO and only dealing 1.54 MDur worth of damage.  Using the no-extra-runes Fire Emblems average, Tengaar deals .80 PCHP, or 1.60 PCHP, or BARELY BARELY a 2HKO.  HOWEVER!  Even if you use that average, Stocke can equip Grace Mail for 14 extra points of MDef, and still survive Tengaar.  (Although I guess there's Tengaar physical hype?!)  Tengaar wants you to use the no-Fire Emblems average, but I think the stat topic takes Fire Emblems into account, so meh at that.

I am amused at Stocke's healing somehow winning him multiple matches on his road to glory.

Light

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3)
Does Jet even 3HKO here?  He deals .31 PCHP if I read the stat topic right.  This is sadder than I thought.  He desperately needs to 3HKO here, too.

Rankings:
Hugely strong Rank to Awakening.  About as good votership as recent games are going to get, and it's a FE game with an unusual amount of caring about the characters.  Amazing.
Weak Rank FFMQ, but preferably under the understanding that it's really FW Benjamin.  Leave Dark King in the sillier tournaments kthx.
Weak Rank DQ5.  I played and it's fun but never seemed to hit a critical mass of voters.  That and some kneejerks for in-game vs. DL end up rather wrong in translation (aka Sancho is not a light, CK).

I haven't played Legaia 2, PS2, SO1, Tierkreis, or WA5, so abstain on them.  Actually no, upgrade PS2 & SO1 to a DNR, both have some issues to my knowledge, and are probably best kept in side tourneys.  EDIT: Actually upgrading to a DNR on AtL2 as well.  It's time has kinda passed IMHO and it's a game that already got tons and tons of DL exposure before despite being marginal then - this argues against the rank to me, not for it.

Data mine: Played SMT4, not the others.

[Dark Holy Elf]

edit: miscalculated damage a moment ago. Anyway, Jet is the second most damaging WA3 PC and has slightly above average damage; he is not failing to 3HKO Luke. By my figures attack x2 + Gatling does 135%. Luke has 108% HP plus somewhat above average TotA def (not sure how good that is, but certainly not making up the difference here). Not even Jewel of Lorelei hype should be able to tilt this, frankly!

The S2 stat topic defaults to no Fire Emblems, with figures involving them in brackets for folks who allow them. Personally if I allowed them I'd probably allow a bunch of other accessories too. And of course I'll note that Stocke "can equip for more MDef" hype is completely non-unique; the entire cast can do the same and many gain more MDef than Stocke can in the process. That gets a solid "yeah, no" from me.

If Benjamin is the only thing you want to see nommed from FFMQ then you probably shouldn't support ranking it at all since it has plenty of other potentially nommable characters. In general I don't think the CKDL ranking format supports FWs at all (which isn't much of a loss anyway IMO!).

[SnowFire]

Well, a lot of weirdness happens when multiple equip setups are available.  When the differences are small it's pretty reasonable to just use the "default DL best" setup and allow equipment optimization from there, otherwise you have weirdness like - as you point out - where when a character twinks for MDef, they get worse DL MDef, which is just bizarre.  (Eruca is clearly the biggest person to swing the averages here, and Stocke in most of his matches wishes DL Eruca twinked for MDef so he'd have more DL relative speed.  This is just a rare case that isn't true and he wants the relative MDef.  To be clear, I do agree that for some games, this is unfortunately necessary - La Pucelle or the like, say, where any character can hugely twink for the exact stat they want and nearly override their default stat block.  Although just disallowing equip switching works too, there.)

Also, checking the stat topic, it isn't "Fire Emblems vs. nothing," it's Fire Emblems vs. Crimson Capes, so...  blah.  I think I'm fine with Fire Emblems at the least (never mind using the L4 averages, where I think we can all agree Stocke has it), gets the damage average closer to where it feels it "should" be, so.

It is certainly a close match regardless.

[Fudozukushi]

TotA defense should never be given credit unless it somehow runs into the stupidity of being over double the attacker's attack stat and it magically starts reducing all damage to 1.

[superaielman]

Godlike

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Zophar (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete)- Kneejerk.


Light

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3)- Also a knejeerk.

2014-1 Rankings

For each of the following games, please vote either to Rank the game, or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20)- Rank. People care about it+ranked in the DL and AtL2 had no issues.  I generally didn't agree with a lot of the bootings CK did from the main D to CKDL, so I am usually inclined to support those ranks. In particular, this game was extremely successful in the DL, while everything else AtL related staggered from one hilarious failure to the next.
Dragon Quest V (11/20)-Reject. Totally unmemorable as a DL game and pretty borderline otherwise. To expand: There just aren't a lot of good ranks. You don't have the wives for most of the game, the kids are later on (duh), Tuppance and Sancho are both awful characters in game you bench immediately, etc.  It's also like SO1 in that it hasn't improved from meh in a long, long time. Don't see the point of adding it.
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20)- Reject. Marginal rank with interp issues, I'll pass.
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20)- Reject. Do not want FE with marginal playership/playership numbers that haven't really improved since it was first released.
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20)- Rank. Did fine in the main DL and isn't a total failure on numbers, which is enough for me.
Phantasy Star II (11/20)- Abstain. Elfboy's point is a good enough one.  I like a few of the PC's and Neifirst, but it's not enough.
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20)- Reject. This one's been sitting in the 'eh' pile since the DL site days for a reason.
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20)-Abstain. This is a 'reject with the hammer of celestial fire' from the main DL, but cast size is irrelevant to CKDL.
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20) - Reject. Low drawing and low interest. Unlike AtL2 and Legaia 2, this one struggled some in the main DL and doesn't really have any fans beating the drum to rank it. 

Haven't played any of the games in the mining section.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Zophar (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete) - At least this is mindless to me.

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Chie Satonaka (Persona 4) - Sinspawn's kinda inaccurate, but I really doubt he'll fail to hit enough times to handle Chie, considering she needs two Tarucharged God Hands minimum (and I honestly don't think she can even 2HKO him that way) to down him.

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series) - Averages with runes you don't allow to people in the DL can -burn-. I don't even think Stocke's particularly close to avoiding being 2HKOed through the healing.

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3) - Sure. Once again, FP building may as well tilt this so Luke -definitely- misses a 2HKO, no evasion involved.

2014-1 Rankings

For each of the following games, please vote either to Rank the game, or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20) - Abstain. I guess Pyro and Dhyer care and I don't really -mind- the game as a duelling thing (duellers are fairly interesting and varied and all). But it's a fully dead-end ranking, all things told. The caveat would be nuking Choko into the fiery abyss she deserves - fuck the Light/Godlike votesplit.
Dragon Quest V (11/20) - Reject. About as dead-end for ranking as AtL2 and considerably less interesting.
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20) - Reject. Just a bad game for scaling/interp split sanity overall.
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20) -Eh, rank. Less dead-end than any other game above and below and well-liked by the base.
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20) - Sure, rank, why not. Dead-end, but interesting and no -big- interp issues.
Phantasy Star II (11/20)  - Reject. See Elfboy.
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20)  - Reject. EDIT: Right, version split. Nuke that game.
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20) - Abstain. See above.
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20) - Reject. In addition to being dead-end, it's -boring as fuck-.

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have Played the game or not.  Additionally, if you object to ranking the game on non-playership grounds, please note this with a vote of Reject.

Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten - Not played
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch - Not played
Pokémon X/Y - Played
Shin Megami Tensei IV - Not played

[DjinnAndTonic]

Godlike

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Zophar (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete)

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Chie Satonaka (Persona 4)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series) - I allow Runes to some Suiko duelists that others don't, but not just "anyone gets a storebought Rune", they have to have an affinity for the element and the rune has to be storebought. Even with that minor boost in the damage average, it doesn't sink Tengaar's damage enough that it fails to 2HKO Stocke through the healing. Fairly close, I guess?

Light

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3) - I'm down with allowing Jewel of Lorelei, but it's not gonna be enough here. Jet builds FP quickly enough and has enough evade to spoil a damage race with Luke here. Just innately more damaging and Jet's a borderliner Light.

2014-1 Rankings

For each of the following games, please vote either to Rank the game, or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20) - Rank - What? I just really like AtL2 and its duellers manage to fit the DL mold well and have some unique skills to play around with (Invincible, Might Mind, Poco's MP=0 skill, the girls have Divide fun in the lower tiers)
Dragon Quest V (11/20) - Rank - I personally have found this to be the best non-DQ8 Dragon Quest game, and I'd like to see some of the family members in the DL. For all that DQ in general is boring, DQ5 has duelists that translate to DL format easily and some fairly fun tricks and equipment options.
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20) - Rank - I just played this recently and it was just a joy. There are 5 rankable PCs, even if 3 of them are temps. Ben is clearly the most interesting, but Light would be more fun with the likes of Kaeli and Tristan. Okay, so Rueben is boring, but he's not likely to get much exposure as a result.
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20)  - Rank - Well obviously this is one getting in.
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20)  - Rank - I've never seen a problem with it, and Sharon and Kazan are pretty interesting.
Phantasy Star II (11/20) - Rank - I like Kainz, Rolf, and Nei, sure why not?
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20) - Abstain - I like SO, but SO1 is a bit of a mess.
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20) - Rank - It's a great story game, and its duelists all translate to DL format easily (if a bit repetitively) and we've got a great stat topic for it to keep it easily organized. Should add pictures to that... hmm...
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20) - Abstain - Nothing wrong with it, but I'm not exactly excited about it either.

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have Played the game or not.  Additionally, if you object to ranking the game on non-playership grounds, please note this with a vote of Reject.

Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten - Played, obviously high support for Ranking
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch - Played, the PCs are kinda lackluster without their familiars, but the stat topic is accurate and they aren't bad. No real objection to ranking.
Pokémon X/Y - Not Played, but it's on my list. Would support ranking even without having played it yet because well, I've played enough of the series at this point.
Shin Megami Tensei IV - Not Played! Owned, still in its shrinkwrap! I'll play it and likely love its cheesy morality play badness when I get to it, but I don't really know enough to say one way or the other.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Godlike

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Zophar (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete)

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Chie Satonaka (Persona 4)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3)


Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have Played the game or not.  Additionally, if you object to ranking the game on non-playership grounds, please note this with a vote of Reject.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20) -Rank, for Dhyer fanservice
Dragon Quest V (11/20) - Nope.
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20) - Nope.
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20)- Rank, for Ciato fanservice aka Fred
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20) - Rank, for Magic fanservice?
Phantasy Star II (11/20) - Nope.
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20) - Nope. Votesplitty.
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20) - Abstain.
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20) - Rank, for Nama fanservice~

Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten: Not played
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch: Not played
Pokémon X/Y: Played
Shin Megami Tensei IV: Not played

[SnowFire]

Jo'ou, as noted before, the L4 average isn't even needed here, Tengaar has trouble against the Fire Emblems average too.  And even without it, I'd say that Stocke is at least "close" to not being 2HKOed!

Djinn, I'd really be shocked if allowing affinity runes didn't tip the scales here as well (unless you don't let Stocke twink for MDef).  Tengaar only 2HKOs through healing with the straight "no more runes" and no Fire Emblems.  Even if you don't allow Fire Emblems but do allow more runes, I'd suspect that would raise the damage average to at least the with-Fire-Emblems level.

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Zophar (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete)- Gutting a different direction than everybody else. Zophar has that Blue Pillar speed advantage, has a part with Lightning damage.

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Chie Satonaka (Persona 4)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3)- UGH, Luke beating Piccolo based on that "Thunder resist." Just ugh. Luke the all around average doesn't 2HKO Jet.

2014-1 Rankings

For each of the following games, please vote either to Rank the game, or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20)- Rank. Cool+has a ton of really successful DL history that at least puts it above most other games here.
Dragon Quest V (11/20)- Don't rank. Was going to abstain, but Super saying that most the DL ranks are marginal in game makes me lean no.
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20)- Abstain. Can't say I'd be enthused at all, but whatever.
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20)- Rank
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20)- Rank. Yes, would love to see this one again. DL prior rank+interesting duellers.
Phantasy Star II (11/20)- Reject. Yeah, Rolf has a problem of maybe being a Middle (He is...by far the worst Yamikei clause. You probably need to double your endgame experience to get a move that...self damages allies. YES). The rest of the cast has problems (and while it might not flop like it did previously (Dragon killer loses to dragon from middlingly popular game), it's not clean at all)
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20)- Abstain. I like it and find the duellers very interesting, but it would need a few more players to cancel out the vote split I think.
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20)- Abstain. I would be torn on this one, but eh. No real strong argument against it.
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20)- Abstain. Was ranked DL wise, but no particular history and the duellers are not interesting.

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have Played the game or not.  Additionally, if you object to ranking the game on non-playership grounds, please note this with a vote of Reject.

Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch
Pokémon X/Y
Shin Megami Tensei IV

[Lance]

Heavy
Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Chie Satonaka (Persona 4)

Light
Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3)


Arc the Lad 2 (11/20) - Rank
Dragon Quest V (11/20) - Rank
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20) - Rank
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20) - Rank
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20) - Rank
Phantasy Star II (11/20) - Rank
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20) - Abstain
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20) - Abstain
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20) - Rank

Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten - Haven't played
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch - Haven't played
Pokémon X/Y - Haven't played
Shin Megami Tensei IV - Haven't played

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Jo'ou, as noted before, the L4 average isn't even needed here, Tengaar has trouble against the Fire Emblems average too.  And even without it, I'd say that Stocke is at least "close" to not being 2HKOed!

Yes, averages for stuff I don't consider legal are amazingly relevant for me.

[Pyro]

Godlike

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Zophar (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete): I never did fight the Godlike Heat.

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Chie Satonaka (Persona 4): Chie's long-term damage has issues. Once her evasion wears off she's in a lot of trouble.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series): I surely allow Fire Emblems to everyone, and I think I allow basic storebought runes, which means Tengaar's damage apparently isn't quite good enough? It's also worth mentioning that Dhyer restricted runes in his little Rune average, but then there are only so many L4/L3 charges too and I tend to be fairly lenient. So I guess Stocke's healing helps? Unless Tengaar's physical can overcome it... Which doesn't seem too likely.

Light

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3): Simply "3HKOing First" should be well enough here? Luke didn't have any healing so that is that.

[ThePiggyman]

This might sound like a silly question, but out of curiosity, for those who take the average damage of Suikoden games as including storebought runes for those with a good affinity, would you consider those characters as having those runes if they were in an actual DL match?

Like, for example, if Nina was in a match, would you grant her a Fire rune?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'd only ever consider using that damage average if I actually gave them the runes. Factoring skills and equips you don't let a character have in an actual duel is egregiously unfair to me. It's arbitrarily nerfing an entire cast just for the sake of making a number you like more.

[ThePiggyman]

I'd only ever consider using that damage average if I actually gave them the runes. Factoring skills and equips you don't let a character have in an actual duel is egregiously unfair to me. It's arbitrarily nerfing an entire cast just for the sake of making a number you like more.

I agree, and the only reason I ask is because I've never really seen a Suikoscrub be granted a storebought rune in the DL, so it got me wondering.

[superaielman]

Going to argue a little on AtL2, since the other games I really feel strongly on have pretty clear cut results.  FE13 seems pretty clearly in (Death to FE6) and LoL2 has a fair bit of support.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20) - Abstain. I guess Pyro and Dhyer care and I don't really -mind- the game as a duelling thing (duellers are fairly interesting and varied and all). But it's a fully dead-end ranking, all things told.

EDIT: Actually upgrading to a DNR on AtL2 as well.  It's time has kinda passed IMHO and it's a game that already got tons and tons of DL exposure before despite being marginal then - this argues against the rank to me, not for it.

It's an interesting cast that has always drawn well enough in the main DL and on board tournaments. More than this, I strongly disagree it should have been removed in the first place, the drawing was never the problem with it.  It's a game people cared about and isn't even impossible to get nowadays.  That is enough to rank it. (I supported reranking MMXCM and Lufia 1 for similiar reasons). PS2 is a different can of worms due to Rolf/low interest. WA5's got the same low interest problem, as can be seen by it's pretty low levels of support. People care about AtL2/FFMQ/LoL2. I don't support MQ at all, but it at least has fans willing to argue for it and support it, which is enough to at least be worth something in CKDL. Anyway, AtL2's a pretty eh idea on paper, but it certainly proved it could handle the main site. I don't see a particular reason to not support it in CKDL, which is much more niche.

[Nephrite]

Godlike

Heat (Digital Devil Saga) vs Zophar (Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete) - Fate Storm as ID.

Heavy

Sinspawn Gui (Final Fantasy X) vs Chie Satonaka (Persona 4)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Tengaar (Suikoden Series) - I think I'm inclined to allow storebought runes these days.

Light

Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) vs Jet Enduro (Wild ARMs 3)

2014-1 Rankings

For each of the following games, please vote either to Rank the game, or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Rank everything.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20)
Dragon Quest V (11/20)
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20)
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20)
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20)
Phantasy Star II (11/20)
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20)
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20)
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20)

Data Mine

I have not played any of the below games.

Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch
Pokémon X/Y
Shin Megami Tensei IV

[Pyro]

2014-1 Rankings

For each of the following games, please vote either to Rank the game, or Reject it from further ranking consideration.

Arc the Lad 2 (11/20): Rank. It has an interesting cast as far as abilities go.
Dragon Quest V (11/20): Rank sure. I played it, and I liked it!
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest (11/20): Do Not Rank. Temp scaling issues abound here. Life/Heal interpretations, and so on.
Fire Emblem: Awakening (11/20): Abstain. Haven't played, I realize a lot of people hype it. I still strongly dislike Fire Emblem in a DL setting though. Just because it is the exception to my rule "Most people are more stringent than Pyro for allowing stuff" and I don't even see WHY that is the case for FE, other than the cast needing it to not be a bunch of 1-D snoozefests. Please nix FE6 if you do rank this... FE I will likely play vs. FE I will never play.
Legaia 2: Duel Saga (11/20): Rank. They are interesting and neat.
Phantasy Star II (11/20): Do Not Rank. Ugh Megid.
Star Ocean: First Departure (11/20): Do Not Rank.
Suikoden Tierkreis (11/20): Abstain.
Wild ARMs 5 (11/20): Do Not Rank. This is an incredibly boring cast to put it mildly.

Data Mine

For each of the following games, please indicate if you have Played the game or not.  Additionally, if you object to ranking the game on non-playership grounds, please note this with a vote of Reject.

Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten: Have not played.
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch: I have played this and stat-topic'd it. I think it might be very messy to rank on account of beasts...
Pokémon X/Y: Have not Played
Shin Megami Tensei IV: Have not played.

[SnowFire]

Jo'ou: You said runes before - Fire Emblems are not runes, they are accessories.  That said, yes, if you disallow Fire Emblems too Tengaar wins.  (Granting half the cast Fire resistance is aggravating, but not enough reason to make 'em illegal, I think.  And that can be dealt with by averaging fire resistance anyway, which makes it more like "half the cast takes 25% less from fire.").  So there isn't actually much need to really argue on the with-runes average, which I can totally see the unfairness argument.

FWIW, to ramble about it anyway (which to say again is not actually relevant to the outcome of the match), while I'm on the fence for L4 averages for Suiko2 characters with a rune, I'd certainly use the "straight" average for the runeless Suiko2 scrubs themselves, which helps a bit.  Agree it'd be obviously unfair to them to be paired with a damage average that assumes they're using something they can't in the DL.  The interp split only rises for the S2 characters who do have runes, and luckily even that doesn't usually matter quite as much as it does this week.  I suppose it can be chalked up to DL weirdness, but still.  As for whether this is merited at all - well, S2 is comparatively benign, but there do exist games where there's a radical split between "DL legal" and "in-game" by character.  e.g. if half the cast is nearly skillless in a way that isn't true in-game due to a job system or the like, while the other half has set skills that are DL legal.  (I haven't played it, but I believe DQ6 is like this from its stat topic.)  These cases may require something the equivalent of separating out the cast and having 2 different damage averages.  (Which, again, is not strictly a "screw you" game that nerfs the entire cast - the runeless S2 scrubs get the low average, and same with say DQ6 jobless characters not being compared against Hero Botsu.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

This might sound like a silly question, but out of curiosity, for those who take the average damage of Suikoden games as including storebought runes for those with a good affinity, would you consider those characters as having those runes if they were in an actual DL match?

Like, for example, if Nina was in a match, would you grant her a Fire rune?

Djinn certainly does this. Snowfire doesn't, which literally results in a cast with below average damage overall. I strongly disapprove of this. Snowfire: while it's commendable that you no longer use the average for the "scrubs", it's still unfair to the cast overall to have a cast which, on average, is less damaging than all other DL casts.

Tengaar losing this match seems reliant on at least one of (a) seeing the Suikoden 2 cast below average damage overall and (b) seeing the RH cast be above average MDef overall. (Consider that if Pyro had opted for the MDef armour as the default in the RH stat topic, Stocke wouldn't be able to "twink for MDef" and thus would be worse against mages in the DL... but would now be better against fighters! Which is really wonky.)

Anyway, AtL2's a pretty eh idea on paper, but it certainly proved it could handle the main site. I don't see a particular reason to not support it in CKDL, which is much more niche.

The reason not to support it is that it is only barely rankable by current numbers and this isn't really likely to improve ever. I certainly don't view "it was ranked before" as a reason to support it and not newer games... quite the opposite if anything! Ranking newer strikes me as a good thing and I think it's a darn shame that there are so few which make the rankability cut. Regarding older games... quite a few games slipped through the cracks when we made the switch to CKDL, and I must say that there are some (non-4 Phantasy Star, non-2 AtL, PSX Tales games) which I do not miss in the slightest, and would oppose (or am opposing) bringing back.

Now, if people care and want it ranked, I think that's great. My vote pretty much stands as a demand for the rest of the DL to prove that people do, in fact, care! I feel exactly the same way about Legaia 2, except this time I'm one of those who cares, hence my support for the game.

[SnowFire]

DHE: If there's sufficient whining I'm fine with using the Fire Emblem averages, to be clear (despite the L4 averages being in the stat topic...).  It just doesn't change the vote here.  With the Fire Emblem averages, Tengaar is KOing by literally 0.01 PCHP, that is basically a survival check and any kind of respect split can turn the fight.  (Take the RH endgame levels lower and Stocke's healing gets relatively better, for example!)  Very much a "vote for who you want to" deal.

Re RH: Well, you run the risk of the exact same problem of "the entire cast is below average" if you forbid twinking too much!  Don't me wrong, I find equip rotation to be annoying in the DL often (hello, FF9), but it'd be like simultaneously using Mia with a Dragon Cane in the Lunar1 damage averages and Mia with a Wind Cane in the Agility averages - the cast can't win.  If you want to get real fancy, you can assume a 50/50 split (like I actually do for the Lunar 1 agility average) in the default between MDef-twinked Eruca & Spd-twinked Eruca, and that can potentially turn the fight to Tengaar, and I think that would be fair enough.  I just think that any interp that causes equipping for more MDef for you to lose MDef to be very weird - outright forbidding equipment change seems saner at that point.

EDIT: That said, I will entirely echo your comments on ranked games, I too am quite glad that say PSX-era Tales is gone.  If people really care about AtL2, fine, but I personally don't, and it's an old PSX game that already got a zillion matches in the DL.  Something like MMXCM, which I also didn't play, is at least of a more recent vintage and clearly has caring and didn't get a zillion matches in the old DL, so the odds of repeats go down.  Freshen things up.  That said, who knows, I'm one of the people who skipped out on super's "re-doing old seasons" topics and some people clearly enjoyed them, so.