Author Topic: Bravely Default stat topic ideas  (Read 20212 times)

Pyro

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Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« on: March 13, 2014, 02:41:46 AM »
For those who have played it, what do you think about the following issues regarding a stat topic of Bravely Default: Where The Fairy Flies.

1. Job stat topic (where the PCs are Monk/White Mage/Black Mage/Knight/etc...) or PC-specific stat topic (Tiz/Agnes/Ringabel/Edea)? The former is the same as FF5's job stat topic or the FFT/XF generic stat topics. The latter would involve allowing some kind of jobs... probably the ones that the PCs are 'advertised' as upon obtaining a new job.

2. Normal or Hard mode stat topic. This affects PCs because it impacts the relative value of defense (Hard mode makes high-def PCs less tanky, for example). Obviously it has a pretty huge impact on bosses.

3. Norende village. An optional minigame that unlocks equips and special moves. Getting far in this minigame involves connecting to the internet and leaving your DS in Sleep Mode rather than shutting it off when not in use.

4. Endgame Level. Job Levels are easy enough to max, but the the actual level the game is beaten at will vary depending on when the game is beaten and how much, if any, grinding is done. Endgame level will affect damage scales due to varying PC attack stats but constant enemy defense stats.

5. The usable form of certain bosses will be in question, along with some boss' actions in combat that may be construed as not usable by them in a 'legal' battle.

Use spoiler size font as appropriate.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 03:49:10 PM by Pyro »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Bravely Defualt stat topic ideas
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2014, 03:19:16 AM »
1. I'd be fine with either. Job stat topic is a must I think. The PC interp is interesting and I've certainly toyed with it myself (it's a less opaque, more plot-reinforced version of the similar FF5 interp) but I'll be surprised if that ends up as a majority view, whereas the jobs are a definite that anyone can get behind voting on, I'd think.

2. In general I'm of the opinion that the stat topic should go with the version which most people play. Do a poll? I kinda assume the answer is Normal Mode, but I'm a HM player as a data point.

3. I will not consider Norende myself. Call me a traditionalist but it'll be a cold day in Gurgu Volcano before I start considering anything that requires online as DL-legal, and even the sleep mode thing bugs me a fair bit. Even if I end up in a minority I would be very appreciative of a non-Norende version (and/or once the mechanics are understood I can probably do it myself... mechanics seemed fairly straightforward aside from the way Job Level affects damage/swings?).

4. I'm in chapter 3. <.<

5. Oh man there are probably major spoilers associated with this aren't there. (Please use spoiler code, anyone talking about this!)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 04:16:22 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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SnowFire

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Re: Bravely Defualt stat topic ideas
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2014, 04:03:28 AM »
As a comment from someone who's barely started (beat the very first boss battle and have the first two jobs), I'd just like to note that BD PCs are a bit weird, and may or may not end up with an important interp split.  Notably, the Brave / Default system (unless it dramatically shifts later on, which I doubt) makes the whole cast similar to Trails in the Sky (100 CP interp) - they can surge out 4x their normal damage any time they want (and sometimes better!).  If a 3 turn damage average is used, that makes the cast really good at slaughtering frail PCs and have problems vs. tanks.  (Although their own durability boost from stocking Default turns vs. tanks will help, of course.)  They're also champs at evading HP limits (which is also true to in-game, and useful, from Jo'ou's comments in WGAYP).

I personally have no particular problem with this, even with the side-effects.  I think rewarding tankiness occasionally is good, as it often doesn't matter as much in the DL as it does in-game (but in the DL, status / buffs renders tankiness moot often).  Of course, there's a way around this - ban Brave & Default.  Presto, damage averages look more like a vanilla game.  I really don't like that, though, as I'm generally in favor of allowing basic cast commands like that.  That said, some voters don't allow RH characters Switch, so this is potentially a similar case.  It would also lead to some weirdness in that I'd argue that bosses using Brave should be pretty unquestionably legal - they do it to you in-game - which would further incline me to allow it for the PCs.

Anyway, the hijinks in the DL the PC cast can pull off with sudden Brave surges strike me as likely to be accurate to the in-game feel, so I'd personally be in favor of baking the stat topic around that assumption.  That said, whoever does the work gets to decide, and maybe there's craziness later that would cause me to change my mind.  Just throwing out my 2 cents based off the all-Freelancer early game stat topic.

(Also, as a data point, I'm doing Hard mode as well.)

Pyro

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Re: Bravely Defualt stat topic ideas
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2014, 03:15:31 PM »
Totally should have asked a question 0.

0: How should Brave and Default be taken into averages? A 3-turn where the casts stacks up a 4 turn recharge after that 3rd turn?

It is kind of silly if no turn averaging is done at all since quad-acting KOs most things in that case. But a straight 3-turn means each the kill point is 2x what it would otherwise be, serving as a brutal penalty vs. bosses.

Other options include a 4 or 5 turn damage average.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Bravely Defualt stat topic ideas
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2014, 03:38:40 PM »
It's a brutal penalty vs. bosses and a brutal bonus against the fragile (average turn 1 damage from BD one-shots anyone with less than 80% durability). Kinda inevitable I think, just use a 3-turn average or you inflate the cast's frontloaded damage even more. You can only avoid this by banning Brave entirely, I think.

But banning Brave is problematic because you have some characters (Valkyrie for instance) who rely on it BP to do things. If you allow those BP skills but not Brave that's a ridiculous boon to those classes (e.g. Judgement, which costs 2 BP to do 3x damage). If you ban those skills you are crippling those classes.

I guess my inclination for now is to allow Brave to alleviate the above problem (and for the reasons Snowfire gave, it does let the cast do some things which are true to in-game) but not Default, or at least not the damage-reduction side of it, because it's ridiculous for the cast to halve all damage until they're ready to kill as a uniform thing.

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Pyro

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2014, 04:08:30 PM »
Because of the 4 action/turn limit, Defaulting is not as good as you may think there?

Cerainly for some jobs that have damage that requires additional BP. And a Healer can Default -> Heal/attack to improve long term efficiency. Or if a PC nees 6 attacks they can Default->double -> quadra for a slight improvement. If you let BP go negative the default thing is a comparatively minor boon.

This ia not an averages interp issue, so no worries.

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2014, 06:47:43 PM »
For those who have played it, what do you think about the following issues regarding a stat topic of Bravely Default: Where The Fairy Flies.

1. Job stat topic (where the PCs are Monk/White Mage/Black Mage/Knight/etc...) or PC-specific stat topic (Tiz/Agnes/Ringabel/Edea)? The former is the same as FF5's job stat topic or the FFT/XF generic stat topics. The latter would involve allowing some kind of jobs... probably the ones that the PCs are 'advertised' as upon obtaining a new job.

I'd say make both if you have the time, jobs-only if not. I've toyed with PC interps with certain given jobs myself (there are jobs that make sense to be given by plot for pretty much everyone, though Edea really does hit the motherload on that, while Tiz gets boned relatively) and the visual cues from the game... well, they're better than nothing. But the job-by-job data gathering is honestly indispensable.

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2. Normal or Hard mode stat topic. This affects PCs because it impacts the relative value of defense (Hard mode makes high-def PCs less tanky, for example). Obviously it has a pretty huge impact on bosses.

Normal would be the one most played so far (I'm doing Normal myself and I think only NEB's doing a HM playthrough straight). I'm of the opinion that NM bosses won't have much problem being competent in-DL as is.

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3. Norende village. An optional minigame that unlocks equips and special moves. Getting far in this minigame involves connecting to the internet and leaving your DS in Sleep Mode rather than shutting it off when not in use.

Considering how slow Norende shop grinding is without having the Internet, I'd probably set a limit on what I'd allow from them. I'd also recommend a no-Norende setup (which may also affect Salve-Maker depending on how harsh you are on Compound materials, since they're only storebought on a Norende shop. Good thing those are really common drops come the lategame, at least).

Quote
4. Endgame Level. Job Levels are easy enough to max, but the the actual level the game is beaten at will vary depending on when the game is beaten and how much, if any, grinding is done. Endgame level will affect damage scales due to varying PC attack stats but constant enemy defense stats.

Can't comment yet, but given how I'm L60 at the end of C4... I suspect those numbers -will- end up pretty high.

Quote
5. The usable form of certain bosses will be in question, along with some boss' actions in combat that may be construed as not usable by them in a 'legal' battle.

Haven't got to such a point where I'd have to make that kind of assessment, I guess. Will weigh on that once I reach such a point. The game has a huge swath of memorable boss fights, though.

For the Brave/Default matter... if you allow Brave -at all-, it definitely should be factored in - and I think the sanest way would be a three-turn average with a Brave blitz on the last turn. It does skew the cast overall into a frailty spoiler that gets screwed against tanks, but it's kinda inevitable. I'm also in the same boat as Elfboy about the mechanics as well - allow Default's BP building, but not its generic damage halving. Same clause I apply to defend commands with unique quirks. (And yes, also allow Brave blitzing)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 06:54:03 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Pyro

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2014, 09:54:02 PM »
One other issue...
6. What equipment in the maingame would you consider allowable for the various types? For example there are many shields that are better than the best storebought shield.

Me, Snowfire, and NEB played on Hard I think. Snow, Random, and Djinn played on Normal... I think others also played on Normal. It is easy enough to list. how much damage increases by between the modes but Normal is probably what will be assumed.

spoiler issues.

The Asterisk Bearers should probably get their World 1 forms. Vampire castle is a World 3 sidequest in my view. The World 2/3 forms are just revamped fights and are both more optional and less likely to be seen (who wants to do all those same fights?)

The engame level for C5-C8 ending should be ~60ish For the Frue ending it'd be ~80ish

For the big spoiler boss of the game, I would assume the formchain at the true ending or the 'ultimate' form, whichever is better.  The final boss would be a pain in the butt to think about


hinode

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2014, 01:08:19 AM »
0) One comment on Default is that one lategame class is kinda build around heavy Default use, with one passive that makes Default twice as effective at damage reduction (which is pretty awesome) and another that increases your max BP limit, plus several BP-based moves. Ignoring Default entirely kinda shafts that class, but allowing it to Default and nobody else to wouldn't be right either. Not sure how to best handle this.

1) Job stat topic is the more important one to me. Handing out classes based on the PC shown in-game works okayish but there are some odd choices later on in the game, i.e. Arcanist/Spiritmaster distribution based seemingly on purely aesthetic grounds rather than the obvious intended functionality of those classes.

2) Normal is what I'm playing on and my kneejerk, though both would be neat if it wouldn't be too tedious.

3) I actually think Norende matters more for boss stats than PCs. Norende weapons are often way more powerful than the in-game alternatives, plus special attacks made up a huge part of my damage vs bosses midgame. I'm not sure anything in Norende would be hugely imbalancing for an endgame PC topic except maybe Falcon Knives, and moreso for the agility boost than the raw damage. +40 for double Falcon Knives is nuts and kinda imbalancing, especially for Ninjas.

6) Storebought only for all equipment, all jobs, IMO. S ranks do strongly suggest what equipment you end up using, but shields are one really obvious case where you still equip stuff despite an E rank. I would not give any class credit for being the only one with an S rank or whatever in a given weapon type, it's not really that big a difference in-game.

Pyro

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2014, 02:08:12 AM »
I don't think Norende equips matter that much for bosses? The REALLY good stuff you can't afford till way lategame, and they aren't much of a boost over other options. How the early-midgame Norende stuff plays out is also dependent upon HOW you play the game, whether you leave the DS in Sleep mode, and so on.

Norende equips do matter for a stat topic. Especially with regards to knives and axes. I think a stat topic would be cleaner were they ignored. The best storebought shield is 28 def, vs. 30/32 defense for dropped shields (of which there are >4). I don't think it matters too much for in-game storebought vs. chests/boss drop stuff though.

Accessories are another small issue, as the 'ideal' one is hard to pin down.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2014, 02:24:35 AM »
The default accessory is definitely going to be a class-by-class deal if they're considered. Listing the storebought ones besides the status blockers would be nice for those (like me and NEB) who apply penalties based on the storebought equips a blocker replaces.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2014, 02:49:52 AM »
One more note on Brave/Default: I would absolutely only allow bosses to use brave/default in ways they display it in-game. This is kind of crucial; many bosses in-game could completely annihilate you with Default x3, quad, quad if they chose to do that (or hell, just a quad turn 1), so it's pretty clear they can't. Lots of bosses can't Default at all (choosing to Brave upfront) and some can't Brave at all, and still more have limits on how many times they can Brave in one turn.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 04:45:41 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2014, 03:31:58 PM »
Another good question is: would you give them free reign over the actions they use on their Brave setups? One boss in particular can dole out anywhere in the range of 9x-15x ITD ITE PC HP in damage with its Brave string given free action usage (where it'd be ~only~ 3.5x-6x PC HP if hardwired). It's the Ghaleon mix-matching conundrum all over again (my kneejerk is to allow freedom on the Brave actions used given their Brave/Default limitations in-game, but so it goes. It makes the boss unrankable, but hey).
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2014, 08:59:41 PM »
Also, for equipment: I'd allow storebought+infinitely stealable from randoms equipment+limited equipment that there are enough of to hand to a full four-PC party.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Pyro

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2014, 06:40:43 PM »
Any thoughts on how much money should be available to spend on skills? For example how much money should be allowed to the class that throws cash?

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2014, 11:06:12 PM »
I'm actually playing on Easy with encounters turned off so I suspect normal mode bosses will at least look familiar with a stat topic.

I'm strongly in favor of a 3-turn average with a full blitz on the third turn. And fully allowing brave and default as options. So we have some badass pcs? Be nice to round godlike out a bit.

There needs to be a job stat topic, though I think there could be a PC post too with allowing advertised jobs. It's an easy distinction in a tournament.

If you mean a generic Valkyrie, then list it as
Valkyrie (BDFF) vs. Alicia (VP2)

If you mean a PC with job/skill choice based on their advertised options, then list it as
Ringabel (BDFF) vs. Nash Rumack (Lunar1)

Simple. Rank both. Everyone's happy and can nom what they like.

Norende equips don't feel overpowered for endgame at all to me, I'd allow them. And I'm on Easy.
To be fair, Endgame is mean.

I'm curious if we are allowing limit breaks based on what weapon a Job/PC uses? Most of them seem legit though I don't know about allowing customizing them with Norende stuff since that gives them way too many options... Alternately, actually getting a limit is kinda difficult in a DL setting so maybe they should be freely customizable to make them a worthy reward for pulling them off?

Generally most of the interns I see people posting so far look good and I wouldn't have a problem with them.

Pyro

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2014, 01:33:48 AM »

0. For the Brave and Default system, I would allow both the commands in their entirety. It is rather powerful, but I typically haven't been bugged by that in the past (FE Counters, RH Switch, VC healing every turn, and so on and so forth). I suppose a 3-turn average will be the thing to use.

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1. Job stat topic (where the PCs are Monk/White Mage/Black Mage/Knight/etc...) or PC-specific stat topic (Tiz/Agnes/Ringabel/Edea)? The former is the same as FF5's job stat topic or the FFT/XF generic stat topics. The latter would involve allowing some kind of jobs... probably the ones that the PCs are 'advertised' as upon obtaining a new job.

Quote
2. Normal or Hard mode stat topic. This affects PCs because it impacts the relative value of defense (Hard mode makes high-def PCs less tanky, for example). Obviously it has a pretty huge impact on bosses.
I played the game on Hard, but I believe a 'Normal' mode topic is the best one to use. You have to intentionally decide "I want more challenge than originally intended" to put it on Hard.

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3. Norende village. An optional minigame that unlocks equips and special moves. Getting far in this minigame involves connecting to the internet and leaving your DS in Sleep Mode rather than shutting it off when not in use.
I am unsure about the Norende village equips. I don't want to allow EVERYTHING certainly, but there is a certain amount that is probably fair. My gut is to ban anything that requires maxing out a shop (Which leaves out the Foxtail and Falcon Knife). This would leave a variety of relatively representative weaponry, and nix out the destabilizing supergear. It would also allow a good amount of Compounding stuff. I would like more thoughts on this matter! I know the game gives you extra townspeople even without going online (4?). And you CAN leave your DS in sleep mode to get things done (as it seems most folks do).

I think there is some happy medium here, and finding it shouldn't be that hard! The back-ended nature of the shop man-hour curves makes some of the early stuff fairly reasonable even without using an internet connection/streetpass...

- The Armor Shop... takes 156 man-hours to max out! But only 48 man-hours if you stop before the 'Heike' gear. Which leaves you with Bloody Shields and Red Hats, which are viable endgame equipment.

- The weapon shop doesn't have such a generous early selection of equipment. 105 man-hours of stuff that doesn't beat out endgame equipment, and then another 110 man-hours for two weapons that do (Swords/Katanas). So I would ignore these two weapons.

- The compounding shop takes 70 man-hours just to reach! But a meager 7.5 man hours to then get enough for Salve-makers to be viable offensive threats in a duel.

- The Special Move Shop takes just 8 hours to max out all the Level 1 super-moves (which are the only things likely to see the light of day in a duel).

- Customizing the special moves is mostly about power bonuses, which are functions of the River Parts shop. Which takes 110 hours just to reach.

So I think the baseline 'reasonable' Norende stuff are... Red Caps, Rainbow Dress (confuse immunity), Lambent Hats (25% Bonus to Thunder damage), Red Caps (+5 Agility),  and Bloody Shields (best defensive shield, but cuts Evade to 0). The Level 1 Super-moves, and storebought damage for the Compounding skillset (and the ability to inflict weakness). Further Compounding stuff can be listed but does not affect averages.

Any objections to this being reasonable?

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4. Endgame Level. Job Levels are easy enough to max, but the the actual level the game is beaten at will vary depending on when the game is beaten and how much, if any, grinding is done. Endgame level will affect damage scales due to varying PC attack stats but constant enemy defense stats.
I am of the opinion that endgame level should be for the 'True' ending. Which means ~80-85. I would like more people to quote their endgame levels to get an idea here.


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5. The usable form of certain bosses will be in question, along with some boss' actions in combat that may be construed as not usable by them in a 'legal' battle.
Massive spoilers here, yep.

World 1 form for bosses, as the only required ones are World 1 and most people will do those sidequests while potentially ignoring the subsequent world re-fights. The exception might be Alternis, whom you HAVE to fight at the end of World 2, but I don't think that changes much and technically the Alternis who gets the most screentime is World 1, so W1 form for him makes sense too!

For the Big Bad Bug, Her C6 ending formchain and her C9 ending formchain are fairly similar although C9 has less durability. Her 'perfect' form I  have no problem with as far as the mid-battle heals go. But some people might raise an issue with it.

For the ULTIMATE FRUE END BADDIE, I need to remember where you get full heals in the fight. A few Armageddons followed by the last leg of the fight are probably reasonable, as again I have no issues with plot matters. But at least his very last form is legal enough. And hey another big bad awesome final boss dude whom Arngrim OHKOs!


6. Money... I am uncomfortable with spending a lot more money to win fights then you get from most fights, so there are several money-taking moves that might bug me. I imagine that there is some limit to what should be considered 'okay' to spend to win a fight. On the other hand you have a LOT of money at the True End and relatively little to spend it on unless you go for the high-level Norende stuff. Some more opinions would probably help here. Essentially, what damage/pg ratio is acceptable to people to allow a move to be spammed, and what about healing/pg?

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2014, 01:57:02 AM »
I'd probably put a cap on the maximum amount of pg you could use in a fight (for this and other resource-based moves, like FF5 Zeninage/Throw Fuma, etc.). I've never set that number specifically and wouldn't encourage a stat topic to do it, but a stat topic should note costs for pricy moves. For me at least, it's not about the ratio, it's about the total expenditure in a single fight, so generally speaking I'd say duellers can't use costly moves to heal-lock with (or withstand an opponent heal-lock) for a significant duration, and so on.

I'll probably take a harsh view of DL Salve-maker like most such things that require even more effort than just "collect money" to power their moves. Usual suggestion of just not to nom them applies.

No specific comments on these issues with regards to this game until I'm done obviously.

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Pyro

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2014, 03:18:50 AM »
Salve makers' damage and elemental manipulation stuff is storebought (and VERY reasonably priced excepting one thing), but is of course Norende village material. It requires an investment 77.5 villager man-hours to get their good stuff. A fairly reasonable amount given the 'bots' and assuming you leave the DS in sleep mode sometimes (which the game double-encourages).


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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2014, 05:29:12 AM »
Mentioned this to Pyro already, but a friend of mine's Hard ending level was L99.  Make of that what you will.

For offensive item-use characters with a giant interp split on what they can use (Salve-Maker?), I suspect that I'd be happy with just leaving them out of the damage average entirely, and then never nominating them.  For money throwers, I suspect I'll have to play through the game to tell.  The key issue for me isn't amount of money thrown vs. money gotten per battle, but rather how much money is worth for other things at end-game and how much there is.  If there's plenty of important stuff to buy until the final dungeon and you're generally cash-strapped, I don't particularly care that this eases up at the end, it isn't generally a viable move and the very endgame shouldn't be over-emphasized; if gold is plentiful and Not A Big Deal, then go nuts.

For allowable equipment, I'll have to get to the endgame to comment, but in general I suspect I'd be in favor of being pretty lenient with "uniqueness" for guaranteed treasure chest items but harsh on monster drops.  I definitely reserve the right to change my mind, especially on power level concerns.

I implied this earlier, but I'd allow Default, and would certainly let the damage-reduction effect apply.  I might apply a *light* defensive penalty to the entire cast if I'm feeling particularly fair (at absolute worst, it's +16% damage, but since Default -> 2x -> 4x attack isn't even that common a strat, it should probably be even lighter, maybe +5% damage), but this thing is minor enough that I'm fine with having it be a cast quirk.  Basically there are three reasons to ban default: uniqueness, power level, and general DL philosophy.  To ramble some:
1) Uniqueness - The fact that some classes have a functionally different Default command with bonuses dampens the uniqueness argument, and I in general don't care too much for this interp myself anyway; I usually allow cast-wide commands.  This complaint is fair enough, though.
2) Power level, see Pyro's notes, it's actually not THAT big a deal.  It matters in a straight slugfest only when psuedo-3HKOing, and only has a noticeable effect when psuedo-4HKOing or 5HKOing; if the BD job is giving the other side that much time, there's all sorts of nasty things that can happen (buffs, debuffs, low % status), and if the other side can't do 'em, they may well deserve to lose.  Note that surgeable damage also tends to get around Default in a slugfest pretty well - do the one-shot of big damage on the non-Default turn.  Default matters most for healers who can do the Default -> Heal + attack strat which basically requires the other side to do 67% durability damage to effectively 2HKO them; but healers tend to have weak damage, so they're even more affected by the high damage average.  It won't be uncommon that healers have a psuedo-5-10HKO in the DL, so that's handing a LOT of time for criticals, charge-up moves, buffing, low % status, the works. 
3) General DL philosophy, eh, not something I share, so I can't really talk about this, but I respect that some people just don't allow this to work!  There's obviously some degenerate strategies that involve "guard" type moves depending on how you see DL matches proceeding sometimes, but I just don't consider them, problem solved.  Certainly when uniqueness isn't the issue, there's all sorts of "charge up with damage reduction for big damage later" moves in the DL, and I presume most people let, say, Pokemon Fly's damage-nulling vs. non-Sky Uppercut type stuff work, so the idea of defensive buffs isn't something inherently bad for the DL, and this isn't even nulling.

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2014, 05:46:41 AM »
Yeah on reflection I find myself agreeing, especially if there are classes which use the mechanic in a unique way. Will have to see how it shakes out in practice and obviously I may rethink this at a later time.

(For the record, it is definitely point (1) which is the concern for me... why do we ban PCs from using Item then turn around and allow both other universal commands and other item-using commands? And as always, I find the idea of "defend-tanking against Jump/Silent Lake/etc." kinda eyeroll-worthy when enemies aren't capable of doing this in-game, so banning Defend outright gets around this stupidity and generally cuts down on stupid defend/counter-defend strategies, though there are other hacks to neutralise those, such as forcing stalemates into offence and simply banning Defend in those specific situations.)

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2014, 06:20:43 AM »
I'll also have to note that Salve Makers can actually get their ingredients outside Norende: all the ingredients are common steals -and- drops from a multitude of randoms -all around the world- and a Salve-Maker skill actually lets you collect them for free. I don't think that should be a split matter. To boot, I think the difference in offense between storebought-only Salve-Maker and non-storebought Salve-Maker isn't really that huge (they're more about the brilliant stalling, which mostly comes from the storebought item healing mixes). Certainly not enough to bring even half a division shift.
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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2014, 12:37:35 PM »
Quote
And as always, I find the idea of "defend-tanking against Jump/Silent Lake/etc." kinda eyeroll-worthy when enemies aren't capable of doing this in-game
Bravely Default enemies can do this! And do! And the Dragoon-type class doesn't care!


For salve-maker, the difference in offense between attack item mixes and staff thwacks is massive. And their ability to put someone down in a decent timeframe greatly affects their ability to win.

So offense item components matter a lot. I feel these are relatively 'reasonable' Norende purchases (i.e. you can get them if you go for them even in a playthrough without streetpass/internet). The other question is whether to allow them a single Dragon Fang / fight for buffing purposes, which takes a 375 rather than 77.5 man-hour investment in the compounding shop and costs 5000/one instead of the more reasonable 200 pg for other offense item components. If you were excessively generous you could let this be spammed in compounding for the 5000 damage Shadow Flare. This would bring us back to the discussion of 'how much money can you spend to win a fight'.


As far as the money question goes, I'd be willing to let the PCs spend  3-4 encounters worth of pg to win a battle. Which is probably ~10-15K? And probably more for one of the classes because they have an innate passive that boosts pg gain by 50% .

As far as Dragon Fangs go, I might allow one but I will definitely not allow more than one.

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2014, 01:59:29 PM »
Right now I'm inclined to allow all storebought equipment, minus the high-end Norende stuff (Red Caps are fine) and nothing else. Checking the faqs and gamefaqs board, it looks like most of the non-storebought stuff is available via boss steals and/or rare drops. Compiling what exactly is available in what ways and what quantities would be a pain of alternating between multiple tabs of data, while sticking to the the last set of storebought gear keeps the weapon lines reasonably balanced

More philosophically, I don't see why Bravely Default PCs should benefit from rare steal Dark Shields and rare steal/drop Lustrous Shields but FF6 PCs can't use infinite rare steal Flame/Ice/Thunder Shields.

Right now my inclination is to disregard special attacks entirely on the PC side; they're 100% universal and depend on how much you unlock from Norende; not just the specials themselves, but also powerups like +x% damage, elemental affinity, status, etc.

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Re: Bravely Default stat topic ideas
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2014, 03:06:16 PM »
The L1 specials are easy to unlock and should probably be allowed. The power-ups are considera ly barder to get and so can safely be ignored.

Storebought equips minus high end Norende stuff sounds fair.