Bravely Default stat topic ideas

[Pyro]

Boss MP mechanics are not like PC mechanics, however. Notice the spamming of skills like Amped Strike that should consume MMP/2.

I don't think this will, practically speaking, ever come up?

[interrobangbang]

Yeah, the two have differing mechanics: it's why I said that skills may not cost MP for them. And unless they face some very solid MP busting PC or boss, yeah, it won't. (Chorno Trigger's Queen Zeal vs., say, Ominas, is like the one case I can immediately think of)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Well it's nice to confirm MP-damage skills actually do something; I wasn't actually sure. MP being missing from the otherwise perfect scan is strange... it's almost as if they didn't want to draw attention to the fact that enemy MP works differently.

[interrobangbang]

Well it's nice to confirm MP-damage skills actually do something; I wasn't actually sure. MP being missing from the otherwise perfect scan is strange... it's almost as if they didn't want to draw attention to the fact that enemy MP works differently.

That's possible. Also, one idea that did occur to me while out shopping is that their skills may cost MP, but be capped at 500 or so MP each (the cost for a skill that costs 1/2 MP when you have 999 MP); that plus very large MP scores would create the illusion of infinite MP in most fights unless you deliberately set out to MP break somebody.

Also, to answer the final two questions in the first post more broadly...

4) Without grinding, 75-80 feels about right. Lower would mean more heavy use of the -100% option than I'm comfortable with, higher means grinding (which is easy in this, but).  I ended at 95 after doing all optional content save Norende bosses, and a fair few levels probably came from going through that optional content.

5) Human bosses should be held to either their first or last forms. The latter are infinitely refightable and have full mastery of their skillset, but are much less durable; the former still have excellent damage but may not be fighting to their fullest (in a duel, they'd have better durability for relatively little tradeoff in most cases, so the last appearances may be better? I don't know.

I'd allow Airy to choose one of her three forms, but wouldn't allow a form chain from first to second. Ouroboros uses his final form, and doesn't get Armageddeon as a result, which neatly solves his major interp issue. All his other matches are meant to wear you down/test resources and durability, and are all ended by plot, so I can't really see allowing any except the final form which... has an insanely brutal status ingame (only available commands while under it being Default and Summon Friend, the latter being duel-useless) and thus probably still can compete top-tier.

EDIT: I can go check and see if an enemy can run out of MP without MP busting, actually. Is this something people would like to know, or is it generally handwaveable?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

It's actually interesting to know. It's worth noting for MP-busting whores such as Zeal. Also may be relevant for the likes of Nel, who can play around dealing MP damage all day in an attrition fight.

[interrobangbang]

Tested and confirmed; enemy skills do consume MP. (Tested vs. the optional boss chain's Barbarossa, since I figured his Amped Strikes would confirm this the fastest. He went about 30-40 turns spamming Shell Split->Amped Strike or so (Hasten World). Confirmed MP was out by trying to drain it with Ringabel and getting nothing for it.

I'd presume enemy skills have MP costs equal to PCs but capped somehow, with inflated MP pools to match.

EDIT: This does leave the question of what moves the final bosses have that cost MP, but that shouldn't be too hard to test. ...some other time, but I can test that later, too.

[Pyro]

Notes for later posting in a topic.

PC averags for Barras and Holly (face 2 PCs):
HP: 231
Damage: 15
Speed: 10

Monk Barras Lehr:
HP: 300
Pdef/Mdef: 5 (Average)

Attack: 22 damage.
Brave->Invigorate->Physical: 30 damage. 1 turn recharge.

Below half HP, Invigorate has a 25% chance of failing and doing 80 damage to everything on the field.

Comments: Scrub. Light.


White Mage Holly Whyte:
HP: 250
Pdef/Mdef: 5 (average)

Attack: 16 damage.
Aero: 44 wind magic damage.

Usable below 50% HP:
Cure: 73 healing

Comments: The game's way of introducing you to the idea of brave-blitzing a boss at low HP. You will run out of healing items and die if you don't brave up and take her down quickly because her healing will be too hard to break. While theoretically MP limited it isn't reasonable to see that limit. Not difficult when you can borrow 3 future turns but the Healing will wall some fighters from other games, interestingly.



PC averages for Ominas Crowe:
HP: 302
Damage: 37.5
Speed: 11.75

Black Mage Ominas Crowe:
HP: 1800
P.Def: 10 (cuts damage by 16%)
Speed: 9

Attack: 22

Black Magic:
Poison : Inflicts Poison at 75% rate, MT. [Poison takes 10% MHP off at the end of every round]
Sleep: Inflicts Sleep, 75%. [Sleep keeps the foe asleep for 2-3 rounds, is not broken by magic]
Silence: Inflicts Silence, 75% [Silence bars the use of magic and magic only, permanent]
Fire: 158 magic fire damage.

Below 50% HP:
Brave->Fire->Fire: 316 fire magic damage. Normally the first Fire is MT'd to do half damage, but in a duel it focuses.

Comments:  Burninate the villagers with good durability and plenty of status effects to make people  uncomfortable. Probably a Heavy.



PC averages for Heinkel:
HP: 363
P.Def: 27
Damage: 100 (Thanks, Ominas!)
Speed: 13 (1.8 stdev)

Knight Argent Heinkel
HP: 2400
P.Def: 20 (cuts damage by 32%, 65% after two Shield Strikes, 17% when Stomping)
M.Def: 20 (Cuts damage by 32%, 17% when Stomping)
Speed: 14
50% weakness to Lightning.

Attack: 112

Shield Strike: 112 physical damage, buffs Heinkel's defense by 25% for two turns.

Below 50%:
Stops using Shield Strike.
Gains:
Stomp: 150 physical damage to one (reduces defense to 15).
Brave: Can doubleact Stomps/physicals with a one turn recharge.

Comments: Durable boss who can put out a finisher below 50% HP. Middle/Heavy?



PC averages for Jackal:
HP: 522
P.Def: 36.5
Spd: 14.5 (stdev: 3)
Damage: 150

Note: The Jackal fights with Khint, another boss who retreats when either boss is reduced below 50% HP.

Thief The Jackal:
HP: 5000
P.Atk: 75
P.Def: 35 (cuts physical damage by ~45%)
M.Def: 13 (~average)
Aim: 92
Evade: 30
Speed: 11 (this is enhanced by some passive ability The Jackal has, his usually goes first)

Brave: Double-act with a one turn recharge.

Attack: 109 damage over 3 hits.

Steal: Steal a potion
Potion: 500 healing

Below 50% HP:
Bravex3: Quadra-act with a 3 turn recharge.

Comments: Durable! But he is not exactly damaging... except for the quadra-act finisher. Middle/Heavy? Probably does not deserve credit for his partner because of the partner leaving when EITHER drops below 50% HP.




PC Averages for Profiteur:
HP: 634
P.Def: 64.25
Evd: 12.75
Damage: 260
Speed: 19.25 (7 stdev)

Note: Since Profietuer is optional, I took him after the trip to Yulyana rather than right after The Jackal. You can just bump up the Jackal stats a tad if you feel he should be scaled against when he first becomes available.


Merchant Chairman Profiteur:
HP: 6000
P.Atk: 85
P.Def: 26 (cuts physicals by 12.5%)
M.Def: 17 (average)
Spd:  14

Takeover: 300 ITD damage.
Pay-to-Play: Quadruples Critical HIt rate. Profiteur doesn't care.

Default: Halve damage, +1 BP. Alawys used as a charge turn for...
Brave->Takeover->Takeover: 600 ITD damage. (is not reduced by Default)

Comments: Default->Takeoverx2. Repeat until foe is dead. This is a fairly effective strategy. And this becomes even more horrifying if you take him when he first becomes available to fight.



PC averages for Khamer&Khint:
(L19)
HP: 717
P.Def: 63
M.Def: 29
Spd: 20.75 (stdev: 6.65)


Time Mage Khamer VIII
HP: 6000
P.Atk: 120
M.Atk: 55
P.Def: 50 (reduces physicals by ~42%)
M.Def: 20 (~average)
Aim: 94
Evade: 20
Speed: 16

Attack: 191 physical damage.
Quara: 385 earth magic damage (uses MT, focuses).
Veilga: Evade up 50% (to 30%) for 4 turns, MT.
Stop: 75% chance of inflicting Stop. Stop negates Actions/BP generation for 2-3 turns.

Below 50% HP:
Default:
Brave->Quara->Stop.

Comments: His earth magic damage isn't bad, and Stop can let him get around some healers? He isn't very impressive really. Heavy?



Spell Fencer Cigma Khint:
HP: 6000
P.Atk: 120
M.Atk: 50
P.Def: 55 (~49% reduction)
M.Def: 20 (~average)
AIm: 94
Evade: 20
Speed: 16

Attack: 200

Sword Magic Silence: physical attacks inflict silence at a 75% rate for 10 turns.
Sword Magic Fire: Attack turns fire elemental and deals an additional 72 damage.

Brave: Double-act with a 1 turn recharge time.

Comments: Silence Sword can let him own some mages. Otherwise he is a mediocre at best slugfester.




PC Averages for Artemia:
HP: 778
P.Def: 70
Speed: 24.25 (5.8 stdev)
Damage: 550
Speed: 24.25 (stdev 5.8)


Ranger Artemia:
HP: 15000
P.Atk: 150
M.Atk: 48
P.Def: 36 (~14% reduction)
M.Def: 24 (~average)
Aim: 94
Evade: 31
Speed: 20
50% weakness to fire.

Default: Halve damage for one turn. +1 BP

Attack: 277 physical damage.
Targetting: 346 physical damage. Ignores default (not defense)
Multiburst: 1396 damage over 4 hits. Takes 1 BP (so has a recharge turn unless Default is used before it)

Below 50% HP:
Brave->Multiburst->Multiburst: 2792 physical damage over 8 hits. Takes 4 BP...

Comments: She has damage. Lots and lots of damage. Godlike.





PC Averages for Mephilia:
HP: 918
P.Def: 72
M.Def: 34.75
Speed: 25.25 (3.8 stdev)
Damage: 700

Summoner Mephilia
HP: 9999
P.Atk: 144
M.Atk: 48
P.Def: 50 (cuts physicals by ~28%)
M.Def: 24
Hit: 94
Evade: 31
Speed: 20

Attack: 250 physical damage.

Girtablulu: 666 earth magic damage, MT. She only uses this every 3rd turn.

Summon Soldiers: Summons a Legion Archer and a Legion Impaler (who do not act the summon turn)

Legion Impaler:
HP: 1000, P.Atk: 144, M.Atk: 48, P.Def: 24, M.Def: 24, Aim: 94, Evade: 11, Speed: 20
Execution: 384 physical damage.

Legion Archer:
HP: 2200, P.Atk: 155, M.Atk: 62, P.Def: 31, M.Def: 31, Aim: 96, Evade: 11, Speed: 25
Chaos Arrow: 530 physical damage. 75% Chance of confusion.


Comments: She's honestly kind of a scrub! Which is so weird to me. Anyways if you let her use Summon Soldiers she can do well. Otherwise she is in danager of being a rather bad slugger.



PC Stats for Einheria:
HP: 1125
P.Def: 75
M.Def: 37.5
P.Atk: 134
Damage: 950
Speed: 34.25 (stdev 5.2)

Valkyrie Einheria:
HP: 20000
P.Atk: 186
P.Def: 62 (Reduces physicals by ~30%)
M.Def: 20 (Takes ~10% more from magic)
Evade: 31
Speed: 25

Attack: 600 physical damage.

Crescent Moon: 625 physical damage, MT. Costs 1 BP.

Jump: Jump in the air at the end of a round. Come down next round dealing 1397 physical damage. This also has a 1-turn recharge time in addition to the charge time in the air.

Below 50% HP:
Spirit Barrier: Divides incoming damage by 10 and applies the damage to Einheria's MP, which is ~500. 'Overkill' damage to the barrier does not spill over into Einheria's HP.

Comments: Strong physical attacks. Mad ups! But that is only useful as a finisher vs. something that doesn't defend, really. Heavy boss.



PC Stats for DeRosa:
HP: 1179
P.Def: 75
M.Def: 38
Damage: 1050
Speed: 35 (5.4 stdev)

Red Mage Fiore DeRosa:
HP: 20000
P.Atk: 170
M.Atk: 100
P.Def: 30 [~average]
M.Def: 60 [Reduces magic damage by ~38%]
Evade: 31
Speed: 24
Revenge: 25% chance of getting +1 BP anytime DeRosa takes damage.

Attack: 519 physical damage.

Fear: Inflicts Fear, MT, 75% [Fear negates Brave and Default options, lasts ~4 turns]
Cura: 1171 healing
Thundara: 916 lightning magic damage (always uses MT)
Captivating Cologne: Inflicts Charm, 75% rate. [Charmed targets will use actions favorable to Derosa, but can not physically attack themselves. Damage cancels Charm.]. Lasts 2-3 turns.

Anytime DeRosa has 1 or more BP above 50% HP:
Bravex2->Cura->Thundara->Physical.

Anytime DeRosa has 1 or more BP below 50% HP:
Bravex2->Thundara->Thundara->Physical

Comments: Has decent thunder magic damage. If he gets a BP from Revenge he can do something quite nasty with a triple-act. Charm status is kind of nasty v mages. Heavy/Godlike.




PC Stats for Qada:
HP: 1567
P.Atk: 154
P.Def: 98
M.Def: 49
Damage: 1350
Speed: 39.75 (6.2 stdev)


Qada:
HP: 40000
P.Atk: 250
M.Atk: 74
P.Def: 54 (reduces physicals by ~14%)
M.Def: 67 (reduces magic by ~24%)
Speed: 30

Attack: 936 physical damage.

Poison Hi-Potion: 1000 ITD damage, inflicts Poison 75%
Water of Life: Grants 1200 HP Regen to Qada.

Default: Halve damage for a round, +1 BP. Used as a charge turn for...
Bravex2->Dark Breath->Physical->Poison Hi-Potion [1 turn recharge]

Dark Breath: Deals Qada's (MHP - CHP) in damage (max 9999). Used only during the Brave chain above. No this isn't very fair.

Comments: Dude that is cheating. Godlike. Seriously that is gratuitious overkill damage after he is so much as tapped.




PC stats for Barbarossa:
HP 1979
P.Def: 102
M.Def: 57
Speed: 48 (8.4 stdev)
Damage: 1600

Barbarossa
HP: 45000
P.Atk: 200
M.Atk: 62
P.Def: 50 (~7% reduction in damage)
M.Def: 31 (~7% increase in damage)
Aim: 91
Evade: 21
Speed: 25
50% weakness to Lightning. 50% resistance to Ice/Water.

Double Damage: 1050 physical damage.

Shell Split: 525 physical damage. Reduces target's P.Def by 25% for 4 turns (increases Barbarossa's damage by 25%)

Defang: 525 physical damage. Reduces target's P.Atk by 25% for 4 turns (Barbarossa will take ~40% less from physicals after this.

Brave: Shell Split -> Double Damage: ~1837.5 physical damage, factoring in the pdef down. One turn recharge time.

Comments: He is much better on Hard Mode! As it stands, he can 2HKO with some degree of durability and has a finisher for 2HKOing the durable/OHKOing the frail. And he can make himself more durable in a physical throwdown with Defang. Heavy?



PC Stats for Praline A La Mode:
HP: 2047
P.Def: 103
M.Def: 58
Speed: 48 (8.4 stdev)
Damage: 1650

Diva of the Battlefield: Praline A La Mode:
HP: 40000
P.Atk: 200
M.Atk: 64
P.Def: 32 (Takes ~5% more)
M.Def: 52 (Takes ~10% less)
Aim: 96
Evade: 21
Speed: 26
Immune to Light/Holy

Attack: 502 physical damage

Love Power: +25% P.Atk  for all allies for 4 turns. (Increase in damage is 51%/casting)

One More For You: Gives an extra BP to an ally of Praline's, who will then doubleact the next turn.

Bodyguards: summons a Black Blade and Black Axefighter who do not act that turn.

Black Blade:
HP: 2800, P.Atk: 185, M.Atk: 74, P.Def: 37, M.Def: 37, Aim: 97, Evade: 11, Speed: 30
Edge of Madness: 336 physical damage vs. one target. 75% chance of confusion

Black Axefighter:
HP: 3000, P.Atk: 195, M.Atk: 78, P.Def: 43, M.Def: 39, Aim: 97, Evade: 11, Speed: 32
Shell Split: 580 physical damage. Reduces P.Def by 25% for 4 turns (~25% increase in damage, stacks additively with any Praline Love Powers).

Praline, below 50% HP:
Pass Turn: Pass a turn to get 1 BP (not Defaulting... okay!)
Brave->Love Power->Physical:

Comments: The only thing in the game that passes a turn without Defaulting... Anywho, Praline is all about her fanclub. She herself isn't very good, but vs. those without MT she can do some nastiness by calling in the fanclub and buffing them and herself into meanness. Those with MT... did I mention she's locked into calling Bodyguards whenever she doesn't have them out? Yeah. Middle?

[Pyro]

PC Averages for Kamiizumi:
HP: 2161
P.Atk: 207
P.Def: 116
M.Def: 62.75
Damage: 1940
Speed: 51.5 (stdev 9.29)

Kamiizumi
HP: 60000
P.Atk: 380
M.Atk: 86
P.Def: 70 (~16% reduction)
M.Def: 43 (~average)
Aim: 98
Evade: 21
Speed: 35

Attack: 1805 physical damage.

Nothing Ventured: Kamiizumi halves physical damage the turn this is used and counters with a 2x physical attack if hit by anything physical.

Before Swine: Kamiizumi halves magical damage the turn this is used and counters with a 3x physical attack if hit by anything physical.

Know Thine Enemy: Kamiizumi picks a single target (unannounced). Any attacks from that target are countered with a 4x physical attack.

Bravex2->Physicalx3: Triple-act's Kamiizumi's physical for 5415 damage. Two turn recharge.
Below half HP Kamiizumi does nothing but this.

Comments: His counter techs are of questionable value... but his physical is not. That he can triple-act it as a finisher is just ugly, ugly business. If you allow him to use the counter abilities intelligently against other bosses they could prove quite devastating.




PC Averages for Kikyo:
HP: 2250
P.Atk: 207
P.Def: 118
M.Def: 65
Aim: 94.33
Speed: 54.175 (stdev 8.2)
Damage: 1950

Konoe Kikyo:
HP: 60000
P.Atk: 280
M.Atk: 86
P.Def: 70 (~16% reduction)
M.Def: 43 (~average)
Aim: 98
Evade: 61
Speed: 35

Attack: 1128 physical damage.

Shippujnrai: 1128 physical damage. Has initiative.

Utsumemi Technique: Allows Konoe to completely evade the next physical attack sent her way. Unlike normal evade this is rather all-encompassing in what it affects.

Transience: Counters any evaded attack with 1128 physical damage.

Default: Halve damage for a round and store a BP.

Brave->Shippujnraix2: 2256 physical damage. Has initiative.
Note that Kikyo does NOT have to use Default prior to Braving.

Comments: Brave->Shippujnraix2 can probably KO some things before they move. Beyond that she can slug it out by alternating Default and Shippujnraix2. Utsumemi is a nasty trick vs. physical foes. Heavy/Godlike...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Also worth noting that Nobutsuna's counter stances all have initiative, for whatever that helps.

[Grefter]

Beats Ramsus by having faster counter stance.  10/10 would rank again.

[Cmdr_King]

Well, just a different system.  Turn based in the FF1 style rather than CTB style.

[Pyro]

I invite comments on the boss notes, while admitting that the process for getting stats isn't perfectly rigorous (glancing at a few different class options and generally keeping a balance of 2physical/2magical PCs isn't perfect)

PC Averages for Victor&Victoria:
HP: 2564
P.Def: 120
M.Def: 58.5
Damage: 2100
Speed: 54.75 (stdev 5.5)


Victor S. Court
HP: 80000
P.Atk: 260
M.Atk: 122
P.Def: 49 (average)
M.Def: 49 (average)
Aim: 99
Evade: 32
Speed: 40
50% Weak to dark, 50% resist to Light.

Fairy's Aid: All elements boosted 50% for 4 turns. Costs 1 BP.
Holy: 1355 holy magic damage
Attack: 1161 physical damage.
Curada: 3100 healing.


Victoria:
HP: 70000
P.Atk: 245
M.Atk: 123
P.Def: 49
M.Def: 49
Aim: 99
Evade: 22
Speed: 40
50% weakness to Light. 50% resistance to Dark.

Corpse: 75% chance of inflicting Doom, which kills at the end of 4 turns including the one it is cast on.

Attack: 1036 physical damage.

Poison: 75% chance of Poison, MT.

Exterminate: 2512 dark damage to any poisoned allies or enemies.

Dark: 1355 dark magic damage.

Below 50% HP,
Brave->Dark->Dark.


Comments: Victor and Victoria both are durable and have 2HKOs. Victoria can Brave for an OHKO below 50% HP, and has some status gimmicks to go with. Victor has a little bit of healing that isn't worthwhile. Heavy for both?




PC Averages for Braev Lee:
HP: 2956
P.Atk: 192
P.Def: 122
M.Def: 68.75
Damage: 2380
Speed: 55 (stdev 7.2)

Braev Lee:
HP: 35000 (With 2 auto full-heals upon being reduced to 0 HP)
P.Atk: 300
M.Atk: 98
P.Def: 49
M.Def: 49
Aim: 99
Evade: 22
Speed: 40
50% weakness to Dark. Resists Light 50%

Default: Quarters damage for the turn. +1 BP

Radiant Blast: 2125 light-elemental physical damage. Ignores default.
Heart Strike: 2870 physical damage (auto-crit). Costs 1 BP to use. (Braev will only use this if he has 1 or more BP stored).
Attack: 1435 physical damage.

When he has enough BP (2 or more), he can Brave->Radiant Blast->Heart Strike

At any point at low HP (below 25% or so on any one of his 3 lifebars) Braev can do the following regardless of his BP level:
Brave->Giant Slayer->Heart Strike->Radiant Blast

Giant Slayer: 1435 physical damage. x1.5 if Braev's HP is lower than target (hah!)

Comments: Default until he wants to put out an offense string, then go ahead and do so. Since he quarters damage while Defaulting his effective durability while doing this strategy is somewhere between nuts and mind-boggling. He does not 'call'  his shots either, so you can't predict when he will go ahead and unleash the double or triple-act. Godlike.




PC Averages for Alternis Dim:
HP: 3140
P.Atk: 201
P.Def: 125
M.Def: 72
Damage: 2600
Speed: 57 (stdev 10)

Alternis Dim:
HP: 100000
P.Atk: 312
M.Atk: 104
P.Def: 52 (average)
M.Def: 52 (average)
Aim: 105
Evade: 32
Speed: 42
Immunes Darkness.

Attack: 1744 physical damage.

Dark Bane (Costs 1000 HP to use): 2048 dark-elemental physical damage to one.
Black Bane (Costs 2000 HP to use): 2048 dark-elemental physical damage to all.

Below 50% HP, Alternis can use the following:
Minus Strike: 9999 ITD damage to one target.


Comments: Durable and with a weakish 2HKO, Alternis isn't an impressive dueler until below half HP, at which point he ends the duel. Godlike.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Looks good! Though... no stats for Praline or Barbarossa? Did you forget to post them or do you just hate people with DL avatars?


Random comments:

-I'll definitely be holding bosses to in-game restrictions on Brave, Default, and the moves they can use while braving (or while not braving, in Qada's case). They're still -fine- in the DL, few fall below Heavy. I also like rewarding the ones who actually use Brave/Default intelligently and unpredictably ('sup Braev).

-BD boss speed is weird, and I haven't played on NM so I'd like someone to weigh in here. In HM, they're definitely faster than the numbers look, on average going earlier in the round rather than later. Any general experiences to report from NM? I definitely have trouble taking the SDs literally regardless, not least because I think they're undersold: Hermes Sandals (the option to switch on/off +10 speed at will) and the thief passives mean PC speed is actually highly variable. But yeah it makes a big difference as to whether these bosses are kinda slow, kinda fast, or very slow, all of which seem possible depending on exactly how NM works and how you take speed values in this game.

-My own damage progression was definitely a bit different from Pyro's. I'm not saying this to judge his stats or call them wrong, but it does depend what you do. In particular, I built around fighters for offence. This means, for instance, that I had a large offensive spike early in chapter 3, since Iron Poles become storebought (powerful 2H-able weapon which any class can S rank easily thanks to Staff Lore) and Performer yields 150% attack which is probably like +75% damage to the entire team. I felt like Qada, Barbarossa, and DeRosa died extremely quickly compared to almost any other asterisk boss.

-Yes, I fought DeRosa in C3. This makes him horrible (I mean... still kinda okay in the DL because dat focussing and dat charm, but his HP is some shade of hideous and in particular I only saw Revenge kick in once...). I found the game pretty unhelpful for telling you how to get him, I figured it was just "come back later in the plot" like the previous time it had been weird with showing a blue exclamation point over a city. (I also fought Barbarossa later than I should have.)

-In general I take a pretty harsh view of optional bosses in terms of when to scale them, generally feeling that when in doubt, err on the side of fighting 'em later. BD's likely to be no different, although at least in the case of many of them the game both (a) is very obvious about how you can find them, and (b) offers large rewards for fighting 'em (classes!). Still expect me to assign a minor respect hit to every optional boss compared to the listed figures.

-This doesn't apply to the required ones of course. Braev Lee and Alternis Dim for Godlike.

[Pyro]

- Praline and Barbarossa are right there I have no idea what you are talking about there is no way I would have forgotten them just because of a spreadsheet skip nope.

- The game is pretty clear for scaling on when to fight bosses (in the chapter they appear, and there is the blue exclamation mark thing), and there is some weirdness later of which I am sure you are aware that should speak to their scaling as well.

- Performer is pretty good at raising offense stats. You may see that in the reflection of the damage spike b/w Praline and Kamiizume. (considering I have them fought right nexxt to each other. Pralaine for least convenient Asterisk, Qada for most).

- Order would matter for Asterisks. I based it on the idea of 'order jobs are listed in except in egregious cases'. Those egregious cases being Praline/Barbarossa/Kikyo. These 3 require advancing the plot significantly and hunting/travelling the world compared to Qada and Kamiizumi, who are easy to get to without going to another continent). Order for those bosses listed in the topic was Qada->(Fire Temple)->Barbarossa->Praline->Kamiizumi->Kikyo. I can understand this being switched up player to player but this feels like the most logical progression in terms of what is easiest to come across first.

- You are correct about speed, in that some bosses lie about when they go. But in general on Normal I found that bosses rarely, if ever, went before PCs. Hermes Shoes and Red Caps being +15 agility is kind of a kick in the balls in that regard, but the bosses do face those things (you have Red Caps early even if you just use 1 townsperson).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Hermes Sandals are more important than the Red Caps - I doubt I'd scale the bosses against Red Caps, but I so do against Hermes Sandals, which are nutso good. Later on, Hermes Shoes also become relevant, but that's a C6-7 thing.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Praline's sidequest absolutely opens up before Qada's; just checked a FAQ to confirm this (Praline is after the Automatons, Qada after the mythril mines). I see no reason to give Qada extra respect because of Praline's sidequest length: its length is entirely from overworld trekking which doesn't get any easier as time goes on (unless you wait for C4, I suppose). That's the only major issue I'd have with the order you chose. But I will restate that the mere ability to be fought a bit later definitely merits at least a minor respect hit.

Fair enough regarding speed (and yeah, even without internet I got Red Caps, although I don't recall when. Could you note when you first start factoring them in? Eh, whatever, +5 isn't that big a difference). I'd still be inclined to take the SDs higher (because yeah, you may or may not equip a Hermes Sandals and that makes a large difference), but good to know they're all some shade of slow anyway.

[Pyro]

I believe Red Caps became a default equip in late C1-Mid C2? No internet access, played a few hours a day, used SLeep mode.

SDs being higher makes sense given the high variation of the system. That is why I didn't bother listing bosses SDs compared to average. Just had the number there so I threw it in.

Qada is indeed after the Mythril mines, but does not require you going around the planet without an airship to unlock! Indeed he is quite literally one turn (and a short passageway) away from exactly where you have to go to rescue Egil.

You kind of need to go significantly out of your way to fight Praline before Qada.

Barbarossa can be hard to find, but you will likely hit him up on your way back to Caldisla... say on your way there for Praline's quest, or delivering Egil there.

Kikyo/Kamiizumi I can understand swapping.

[Dark Holy Elf]

You need to go significantly out of your way to fight Praline, whether you do it before or after Qada. The timing isn't relevant, unless you save her until after the airship. Which you didn't, so I'm not sure what's up. The only way you fight Qada first is if you actively ignore her sidequest and advance the plot by going to the Mythril Mines.

But hey, optional bosses, people will respect how they will. For my part, it's good to know I can c/p Kamiizumi's damage average for Qada/Barbarossa, since that fits with my in-game experiences pretty well. <.<

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Worth noting that Praline immunes Holy as well.

[interrobangbang]

I'd either hold bosses to as soon as they unlock (Profiteur benefits the most from it) or from once the crystal is awakened. Not inclined to wait a chapter for any of them (though I can def. respect doing it for DeRosa's dumb sidequest) or anything, but clearing those at end of chapter would be legit.

This being said, personally would probably scale to as soon as each unlocks on average. And yeah Praline immunes Holy, just as the DK immunes Dark.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Now that I've finished the game...


2. NM stat topic, yeah. Sounds like a lot more people played that than HM. The difference it makes for the PCs is pretty damn minor so I can't bring myself to care, and NM bosses are already -fine-, thank you very much, with at least a couple of them hanging out in Godlike champ territory.


3. If I were making the stat topic myself I'd from on almost everything from Norende probably. Without online it's just not practical beyond some really early stuff and I'm firm in my views not to allow anything gained from online. Some mid-range armour is still better than storebought stuff this way, such as Red Caps. Apparently I was very close to unlocking Bloody Shields so I'd probably allow those too? Helps preserve the advantage of 1H weapons which is lessened in the DL due to Two-Hands not being legal for non-knights.

Salve-Maker gets storebought items only. That shop is not practical without online; your Norende hours are limited and better spent on things which benefit the whole cast: armour, weapons, specials, etc. Echoing Snowfire, here: don't nom Salve-Maker, and either create an average without their damage or list multiple ones because there's not going to be any reconciling the 3+ different views of legal items for the class. (Unfortunately it sounds like, contrary to Snow's hopes, the items allowed will make a ridiculous difference for the class' duelling ability, because the brave system greatly amplifies small damage differences in the DL*.)


I'm on the fence about allowing specials period. They're completely non-unique. However, if some classes can legitimately get them more easily than others I could see a case to allow them in that case. Definitely would have specials start unchaged, though; I can see the case for half-charging for some limits, but not for something that isn't unique.


4. I finished a little over Level 75. Anything from 75-80 sounds reasonable to me. Unless you wanted to scale things to the first ending, which would definitely be a bit lower (I was 65?). I don't really care. There's a wide reasonable endgame level here depending on encounter control and the number of optional fights you do (for me: I didn't turn off encounters unless I was backtracking, but didn't do many optional fights in C5-8 since the rewards were minimal and the game was already quite long enough).


5. No way to talk about this without spoilers! For the asterisk-holders, use their first forms. In the case of Holly, Barras, Ominas, Heinkel, and the C4 bosses, this is their only required form, except Alternis who has two, but not only are they pretty damn similar but the first fight is the "real" Alternis whom the player has interacted with throughout the game. DeRosso I take scaled to C6, same with Yulyana. If for you wanted to rank the crystal guardians as well (due to fighting them so many times they are certainly very memorable!), yeah, first forms again. For Airy, good ending form 3 seems obvious. It's her "true" form appearance-wise and combines her previous tricks in one final badass package, and is far better than the first two forms unless you chain them which is of nebulous legality. For the final boss, all those plot fights make him a headache. I'd probably just give him the final form, which amusingly means he has less HP than Airy but whatever he's still Godlike. Divergence (seals all skillsets except Default and Summon Friend, and yes he can refresh it) is a mean trick and really makes him as a dueller, which is a bit of a headache since it's not clear exactly what it would work on (all PCs and no bosses? How do you account for the weakness of not blocking Summon Friend, which has no DL analog? I dunno). I'll restate my views that "when" you take any of the optional bosses is pretty arbitrary so I won't ever take the most favourable view possible of an optional boss. The fact that you can make any one of them into a weaker boss by leaving, advancing the plot or fighting another asterisk-holder first, and returning, is a legitimate weakness that should be held against them to some extent.


*I'll speak more about this now because I feel like people often don't quite grasp the significance of what the brave system does to the average. Let's take a three-turn damage average. Most duellers (ignoring a few shenanigans involving BP generation or costs) can get six actions in three turns: (Default), Act twice, Act four times. Thus the average damage per turn is that done in two actions. If an average damage-dealer does 40% to an average opponent (DL convention), then...

-an average damage-dealer does 20% per attack, borderline killing the average opponent on turn 2 (otherwise 3).
-a dueller with half average damage does 10% per swing, and kills an average opponent in 6-7 turns (as opposed to 5-6 for most casts)
-a dueller with 150% average damage does 30% per swing and kills the average opponent in a single round. In fact they only need 125% average damage to do this. In most casts, such duellers have a (low!) 2HKO.

Basically BD's higher-damage-dealers are very inflated in the DL, while lower-damage-dealers suffer disproportionately (although not as much as the higher-damage types benefit, because being able to burst your damage is powerful). I guarantee you that everyone is going to go "... what?" to at least one class which will OHKO average on turn 1 in the DL. Taking other averages can't sidestep the core problem here; placing restrictions on Brave would, but introduces its own share of problems (anything besides banning is arbitrary, and see previous discussions on the problems of just banning it). And in fairness, this mechanic is at least fairly true to how randoms work in-game.

[Pyro]

Amusingly enough, the Compounding shop is in fact the best way to spend your Norende hours after obtaining the Red Cap/Bloody Shield. While it takes 70 hours to unlock, that is 3 days in real time, and unless you blitz the game it's not likely to be a huge fraction of your time spent playing it.

With the exception of the shop max bonuses (which takes a crazy amount of time), there is very little that is better to get out of Norende. THe specials are most useful for the L1 specials, which are easy to get. The special bonus shop is nice, but takes even longer to unlock. Compounding items gives you quite nice damage for cheap.

The strongest argument to ban the Compounding shop is to espouse both "Don't use the online functionality the game encourages you to use" and "Don't leave your DS asleep to generate SP/Norende restoration progress". Both of those are rather against what the game encourages, and I seriously doubt most people play in that way.

The DEGREE to which you allow Compounding Shop storebought stuff is crucial though, as well as how much money you allow to be spent to win a fight (also an issue for Merchant). As Dragon Fangs, if allowed to be spammed, are absolutely mind-boggling and propel Salve-Maker into Godlike.

Any thoughts on Cash allowable for Merchant/Salve-Maker?

Anyways, relevant Norende times again, for the curious.

- The Armor Shop... takes 156 man-hours to max out, but only 48 man-hours if you stop before the 'Heike' gear. Which leaves you with Bloody Shields and Red Hats, which are viable endgame equipment.

- The weapon shop doesn't have such a generous early selection of equipment. 105 man-hours of stuff that doesn't beat out endgame equipment, and then another 110 man-hours for two weapons that do but not by much (Swords/Katanas). So I would ignore these two weapons.

- The compounding shop takes 70 man-hours just to reach! But a meager 7.5 man hours to then get enough for Salve-makers to be viable offensive threats in a duel.

- The Special Move Shop takes just 8 hours to max out all the Level 1 super-moves (which are the only things likely to see the light of day in a duel).

- Customizing the special moves is mostly about power bonuses, which are functions of the River Parts shop. Which takes 110 hours just to reach. And then a fair bit more to make effective. Special moves aren't likely to be a significant part of any cast member's strategies.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

For Salve-Maker, I'd pretty much allow them 99 Hi-Potions, X-Potions, 99 Phoenix Downs and 99 Hi-Ethers per season. I feel that cash gains disproportionately explode in the lategame and it's pretty trivial to keep a full stock of non-online storeboughts. And yeah, Elfboy's right about their damage differences (I -badly- underestimated Shadowflare, which is very powerful and makes the difference between Salve-Maker being a solid Middle or a bonafide Godlike). For Merchant, my personal sideline would be between 50k-75k PG total per fight to spend, depending on whether I feel like giving him a bone for boosting cash gains or not.

Also, I don't think people will suffer too much from storebought/early Norende-only equipment, though yeah, I'd set my limit on Bloody Shields. The difference between stolen boss items on C6 and C5 storeboughts is like 10 points in attack, and Dimension's Hasp items are pretty much a no-go regardless. They lose -some- interesting armor sets, but them's the breaks.

Also, I probably won't allow specials at -all- except maybe the Sword L1, being completely non-unique -and- a pain in the ass to unlock and all. They were also entirely irrelevant for me the entire game (I never unlocked anything besides the Sword L1, which is automatic).

[Pyro]

How much Norende did you unlock?
I maxed it out playthrough 1. Playthrough 2 had 1 villager and got Bloody Shields/specials/compounding shop up to dark Matter, and unlocked the power up upgrade store up to... power +30%

[Dark Holy Elf]

Let's just agree to disagree on Salve-Maker special shop stuff. For me it's not even close to legal ("online = no" is not negotiable to me), but I don't expect I'm going to convince you either. It's not as if Salve-Maker is being screwed over in the DL as is (lots of other classes are being restricted from reaching their in-game damage potential).


Re the money question, it's interesting. Like FF5 you don't gain that much money per fight late, but on the other hand you also don't have much to spend it on. (I think FF5 put more in chests though.) My general rule of thumb for the pricier things remains "don't let 'em heal-lock with pricy stuff for a long time" and I'm generally willing to decide that holistically on a match-by-match basis. Cheap things are of course far less of an issue; I'd probably give Salve-Maker a virtually unlimited supply of Hi-Potion + Ether for full healing, for instance.

[Tangent, since I looked some things up: Samurai's Zeninage/Gil Toss in FF5 is pretty damn reasonable against one target! Just costs 2k at Level 40. Compared to 25k for a Fuma, and the fact that there is a final dungeon random that gives out 10k (plus one rare formation that drops 150k!), I can't say I find its drawback much of an issue at lategame any more; more of an early- to mid-game thing (since your gil supply increases far more quickly than your level, and the move's cost is based on your level). Flipside, Fumas are reasonably pricy, notably moreso than their FF4/6 counterparts, and the next best storebought is a huge damage hit, unlike Shadow's drop from Falchions to Ninja Stars.]