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Author Topic: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!  (Read 1420 times)

superaielman

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Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« on: May 06, 2014, 01:40:38 AM »
Holly (Bravely Default) vs Vyse (SoA)
Holly vs Palom (FF4)
Holly vs Jude (WA4)
Holly vs Judecca (WA2)
Holly vs Billy (XG)
Holly vs Solo (DQ4)
Holly vs Snow (FF13)
Holly vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF)
Holly vs Sceptile (PKMN)
Holly vs Alice (SH1)
Holly vs Clive (WA3)
Holly vs Joachim (SH2)

Ninja (Bravely Default) vs Vyse (SoA)
Ninja vs Palom (FF4)
Ninja vs Jude (WA4)
Ninja vs Judecca (WA2)
Ninja vs Billy (XG)
Ninja vs Solo (DQ4)
Ninja vs Snow (FF13)
Ninja vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF)
Ninja vs Sceptile (PKMN)
Ninja vs Alice (SH1)
Ninja vs Clive (WA3)
Ninja vs Joachim (SH2)

Cordelia (FE13) vs Vyse (SoA)
Cordelia vs Palom (FF4)
Cordelia vs Jude (WA4)
Cordelia vs Judecca (WA2)
Cordelia vs Billy (XG)
Cordelia vs Solo (DQ4)
Cordelia vs Snow (FF13)
Cordelia vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF)
Cordelia vs Sceptile (PKMN)
Cordelia vs Alice (SH1)
Cordelia vs Clive (WA3)
Cordelia vs Joachim (SH2)
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Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2014, 02:33:48 AM »
Holly (Bravely Default) vs Vyse (SoA): Vyse has the offense for this.
Holly vs Palom (FF4): 3HKOs before he kills?
Holly vs Jude (WA4): Wind resistance comes in handy!
Holly vs Judecca (WA2): Don't think he has the dependable offense?
Holly vs Billy (XG): Haste-healing
Holly vs Solo (DQ4): Oh sweet mother of...
Holly vs Snow (FF13): Someday he summons. Someday.
Holly vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF): No problem setting up a fatal chain. Has enough durability besides?
Holly vs Alice (SH1): Healing and magic res?
Holly vs Clive (WA3): Wins a straight slugfest.
Holly vs Joachim (SH2): Wins a straight slugfest?

Ninja (Bravely Default) vs Vyse (SoA): Physicals. Attempts at magic get outslugged.
Ninja vs Palom (FF4): Magic! Not sure Shippujinrai x4 is fatal... 8724 physical damage?  ~60% PCHP damage/ How frail is Palom? 61% or so? Ha!
Ninja vs Jude (WA4): Physicals... Jude eats a Transience counter anytime he strikes and it buffs up quickly. Also high base evade throws Jude through a loop.
Ninja vs Judecca (WA2): Physicals!
Ninja vs Billy (XG): Not so sure on this one. But Ninja's base evade may prove useful anyway. And there is the fact that Billy eats a Buffed Transience Counter anytime he punches through Utsumemi, and that buffs Ninja's damage up to 225% after 2 times... which leads to a really nasty brave chain.
Ninja vs Solo (DQ4): The magic.
Ninja vs Snow (FF13): Ruin.
Ninja vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF)
Ninja vs Alice (SH1): Magic.
Ninja vs Clive (WA3): Utsumemi and Default? Gatling might not KO before it's over, and building FP is harder with Utsumemi in play.
Ninja vs Joachim (SH2): Magic!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 01:14:58 AM by Pyro »

superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2014, 02:38:17 AM »
Holly (Bravely Default) vs Vyse (SoA)- Way too much damage. Vyse may well buld to Pirate's wrath here, which... ouch.
Holly vs Palom (FF4)- Kneejerk. Palom has a lot of offense and Holly's own offense isn't good.Status could also tip things.
Holly vs Jude (WA4)- I think Jude blocks wind, just to be insulting.
Holly vs Judecca (WA2)- Outlasts.
Holly vs Billy (XG)- Good luck with that, Holly.
Holly vs Solo (DQ4)- Holly is completely outclassed here.
Holly vs Snow (FF13)- Mediguard+wait till a summon at worst. What a brutal match.
Holly vsRAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF)- Raving Rage should be enough.
Holly vs Sceptile (PKMN)- Wind weak.
Holly vs Alice (SH1)- Runs out of SP.
Holly vs Clive (WA3)- Clive speed sinks
Holly vs Joachim (SH2)- Joachim has trouble making damage stick, I'd think.

Ninja (Bravely Default) vs Vyse (SoA)-Evasion trick, sure.
Ninja vs Palom (FF4)- Ninja vs mages are ugly.
Ninja vs Jude (WA4)
Ninja vs Judecca (WA2)- oh dear god no
Ninja vs Billy (XG)-Think the evasion trick hodls up here.
Ninja vs Solo (DQ4)- Good grief.
Ninja vs Snow (FF13)- Mediguard/ravager are enough.
Ninja vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF)- Evasion.
Ninja vs Sceptile (PKMN)- Sceptile 2HKOs which makes Ninja sad.
Ninja vs Alice (SH1)- Healer with magic. Ninja can't do shit to pressure.
Ninja vs Clive (WA3)
Ninja vs Joachim (SH2)- Strong kneejerk. Ninja is so bad when the evasion trick's not 100%.

Ninja: 5-6
Holly: 5-7
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 02:24:00 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2014, 03:29:08 AM »
Using stat topic numbers and my scaling method, Holly's around 1.66x PC HP. For pure curiosity purposes, unscaled, against a 2.5x average damage for PC HP threshold, she has 6.66x PC HP. So, for me, she can patch away up to 48% PC HP in damage per Cure casting.

Holly Whyte vs Palom (FF4) - Palom's actually pretty good at punching past Holly's healing. Her offense, on the other hand, is just too anemic to threaten him. Of course, FF4o Palom likely loses because that durability, jesus.
Holly Whyte vs Jude Maverick (WA4) - Jude's also pretty good at overwhelming the healing with the speed game on Assault Buster. To make matters worse, he halves wind.
Holly Whyte vs Judecca (WA2) - Judecca, on the other hand, struggles even with the borderline 2HKO and is slower. The inaccuracy on Miriam also speaks volumes against him.
Holly Whyte vs Billy Lee Black (XG) - Build up AP, mock the damage with Wind Shield and collect victoly via chipping then doubling at worst. Billy's on a whole other tier compared to Holly.
Holly Whyte vs Solo (DQ4) - I'm fairly sure Solo can pull this off, be it via chipping or possibly even slowly trying to connect his sleep spell.
Holly Whyte vs Snow Villiers (FF13) - MEDIGUARD STALL until Summon may well be the course of action here.
Holly Whyte vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF) - Ragnar has a little bit too much damage once Hyper's in place. And we all know Holly's problems with pressure. He punches past Holly's healing a lot better than Judecca as well, which mitigates the accuracy issues to a degree.
Holly Whyte vs Sceptile (PKMN) - Holly 3HKOs Sceptile! Too bad about the insane speed split and how Sceptile can also work its way into Overgrow for a massive damage dump on her. He'll likely -need- it, but I think he can do it.
Holly Whyte vs Alice Elliot (SH1) - Alice can't really break through the healing even before you take the SP issues into account.
Holly Whyte vs Clive Winslett (WA3) - Even with Clive being -slower-, he -does- deal a lot of damage and has plenty of damage control to boot. Chipping into a powerful Gatling feels like the way to go here.
Holly Whyte vs Joachim Valentine (SH2) - Joachim doesn't have the damage for this. It's hilarious that he risks losing by running out of SP, though.

3-8. Holly swings grossly depending on your durability respect for her, since she's all about pure attrition. I'm not really sure how SnowFire scales boss HP (and I honestly see his scaling as quite generous for her specifically), but his view of her HP, which is over double mine, likely hands her a borderline Middle/Heavy nod, since that makes her healing nearly a full bar of PC HP - of course, he limits her AI to a degree, so. Given my views, though... she kinda struggles when the damage scales start climbing upwards. Additionally, the bad slugging (6HKO damage? Below average speed?) means she's more or less a Light when the healing doesn't pan out. Boss Mint, given the appropriate proportions, feels like an appropriate moniker here. Spoils low damage and limited resources, but runs into irredeemable trouble when neither of those are issues. Spiky damage can also be problematic. I at least allow her to heal at any HP range once she hits the 50% threshold once, but that limiting range can be an issue as well.

Ninja vs Palom (FF4) - Mage against Ninja. Shippujinrai x4 clocks in at 46% damage to average, which may work against FF4o Palom, but sure as heck doesn't against FF4a.
Ninja vs Jude Maverick (WA4) - Even with Ninja's speed, the defense's so bad Assault Buster's still doing a number here, and Rapid Attack is a great way to punch past Utsusemi (after all, Jude's faster than Ninja to begin with). Ninja might well be UNABLE to break through Jude's damage nulling to boot, which would just make this fight hopeless. EDIT: After Pyro's argument, I think I'm still keeping my vote here, though: it hits me that any possible Leyline hex combination in-game hands Jude a way to win through Ley Boost (having one of Wind or Earth hexes let Jude grab a decisive victory against Ninja, since he can control when to ram into Transience (do note that Ninja only even deals damage to Jude once his attack gets buffed once, Ignia Guard's property sorta means Ninja's incapable of damaging Jude before that), and only combinations where there's only one of Earth and Wind -and- Ninja starts on them lead to the initial argument. I really doubt Jude misses a 4-3 using his physical twice, though, and one RA'd Assault Buster OHKOs Ninja of the 0.67x pdur (while, even fully buffed, Ninja 6HKOs Jude, so the practical effect is likely more like a 7HKO here. Ninja needs a third counter). Of course, always tiebreaking against BD evade here - otherwise, Ninja would have this match period.
Ninja vs Judecca (WA2) - Utsusemi spam gets to shine here.
Ninja vs Billy Lee Black (XG) - Delicious Xenogears haste works out its game here. Transience counters may be annoying, but Billy has the healing and resources to make it work. Not to mention a charged Deathblow string likely one-rounds Ninja anyway.
Ninja vs Solo (DQ4) - Magic.
Ninja vs Snow Villiers (FF13) - Magic.
Ninja vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF) - No magic!
Ninja vs Sceptile (PKMN) - More magic.
Ninja vs Alice Elliot (SH1) - Yet more magic.
Ninja vs Clive Winslett (WA3) - EDIT: right, alternate evade setup. Utsusemi I think I see owning Lock-On, so yeah. Sigh.
Ninja vs Joachim Valentine(SH2) - Holy crap, Joachim's magic sees use here. Welp.

3-8. This pool exploits Ninja's weaknesses quite viciously and even some of the physical fighters circumvent the evade game just fine. Utsusemi's actually more limited than I first thought, but sometimes it's just the luck of the pool.

Cordelia vs Palom (FF4) - Goes first and viciously ravages an infant.
Cordelia vs Jude Maverick (WA4) - Neither doubles, but Jude can survive three shots maximum of viable Cordelia offense (her own turn+a counter+a Javelin counter). She can't really handle a full Assault Buster String, on the other hand.
Cordelia vs Judecca (WA2) - Doubles and goes first, which does ugly things here. Judecca needs to OHKO, and he ain't pulling this off.
Cordelia vs Billy Lee Black (XG) - Doubles, goes first, one-rounding ensues. It happens.
Cordelia vs Solo (DQ4) - Solo's not 2x PC HP tanky if I recall correctly, though he's not too far from it. Cordelia mdef staves off a first turn sleep and she two-rounds while going first otherwise.
Cordelia vs Snow Villiers (FF13) - Snow can't Mediguard stall here lest he wants to explode and he loses a straight slugfest. Cordelia is frankly vicious when she doubles.
Cordelia vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF) - Cordelia fails to double and has to ram into Ragnar's great evade. Losing proposition, especially when he avoids counters and can actually use Raving Rage in this fight.
Cordelia vs Sceptile (PKMN) - Hm. Cordelia has an easy 2HKO on Sceptile and she nerfs his draining to a degree with the MDef. However, Sceptile -still- 3HKOs and I see gen 3 Leaf Blade avoiding counters... and Agility should actually let him double Cordy. He also has a 3-2 on her if he goes that route, so, Agility, Cordelia turn (if she uses a Javelin for counters here, she just ends up losing anyway), Leaf Blade x4, collect victory. EDIT: hinode mentioned Leaf Blade is a contact move! In that case, better idea to Giga Drain, which still 4HKOs Cordy.
Cordelia vs Alice Elliot (SH1) - Cordelia -actually 2HKOs Alice through panties- before Gospel, and likely 3HKOs after it. Since Alice -5HKOs- Cordy, I kinda have problems seeing her actually pull this off with 13 SP to work with and the prohibitive costs on Advent: she either runs out of MP, SP or both - and I haven't even gotten to how she needs to reapply Gospel every five turns either! So it goes.
Cordelia vs Clive Winslett (WA3) - EDIT: Huh, oversold Clive's HP and undersold Cordy's damage a bit. Sure, one-rounds.
Cordelia vs Joachim Valentine (SH2) - Joachim even has a shot with the ID, but on average, Cordelia should eke this out.

8-3. The pool mooooooostly played to Cordy's strengths - against anyone clocking in at average speed or below, her offense is Heavy champ-calibur, and this roster had plenty of those. When it didn't... well.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 07:22:06 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2014, 04:01:57 AM »
Cordelia vs Palom (FF4) - Cordelia does ugly things to the slow.
Cordelia vs Jude (WA4) - I'm not sure if Cordelia's mild evasion does enough to screw up Attack -> Assault Buster 2HKOing her, but she only 3HKOs Jude anyways and doesn't double so he has enough time regardless.
Cordelia vs Judecca (WA2) - Cordelia doubles.  Judecca's only shot here is to land paralysis and I recall the odds of that being pretty scrubby.
Cordelia vs Billy (XG)
Cordelia vs Solo (DQ4) - Unless Sleep manages to be turn 1 vs. Cordelia RES I think he's kind of screwed.
Cordelia vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF) - Ragnar's evade kind of beats Cordelia's here, and as with most people above average speed, she can't double him.
Cordelia vs Sceptile (PKMN) - Good question, I'm not sure Sceptile quite manages one-rounding or avoiding Brave Lance counters which kind of hurts badly but I could be swayed here. e: oh right, giga drain hype.  Sure I can get behind that.
Cordelia vs Alice (SH1) - Undergarments means she's not one-rounded.  Gospel doesn't save her from being two-rounded in practice though.  Never mind the fact that Alice only 5HKOs because :sh1:.
Cordelia vs Clive (WA3) - Clive absolutely needs to OHKO here and this is something of a problem.  I'm not particularly inclined to grant WA3's cast any special weakness-hitting properties in this regard either. e: or he could just be one-rounded first, weakness-hitting be damned.
Cordelia vs Joachim (SH2) - Joachim kind of wishes his ID was as good as Hilda's here.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 06:50:19 PM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2014, 04:43:44 AM »
Holly (Bravely Default) vs Vyse (SoA) - Vyse gets to Focus into horribleness, wow, he so rarely gets to and wants to do this.  Increm'd Pirate's Wrath is 3.9 PCHP, I see Holly as around 3 PCHP.  Holly barely misses the 5HKO and only 6HKOs here, so...  yeah, Focusx4->Increm->OH GOD THE PAIN.
Holly vs Palom (FF4) - Palom durability: Not good.
Holly vs Jude (WA4) - This is the kind of opponent Jude loves, tons of time to set up on her for Assault Busters of doom, doubles left & right.
Holly vs Judecca (WA2)
Holly vs Billy (XG) - Billy can break the stall with haste, sure.
Holly vs Solo (DQ4) - Solo has 11 shots of Lightning (and 1 Fullheal) to try and break through with.  Each Lightning is basically .69 PCHP.  Holly heals every other round for ~.90 PCHP to me (kinda similar to Elf letting Holly heal every turn but off a much lower base HP score), so that's .24 PCHP worth of progress per blast.  2.4 PCHP + .69...  okay, Solo barely hustles this out before running out of MP.
Holly vs Snow (FF13) Ice motorcycles.
Holly vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF) - Not really sure how much I feel max damage Raving Rages especially since Orbital Ring is what the damage average uses, but XF bosses will walk into it and BD boss AI isn't perfect, so sure, even if there's only a 50% odds per turn of getting a max knockback, that's fine, Ragnar shouldn't even need constant max knockback.
Holly vs Alice (SH1) - Outheals.
Holly vs Clive (WA3) - Clive eventually starts getting OHKO damage at high FP...  possibly Holly kills him before then, though.  Holly 5HKOs barely or so, can Clive 4HKO... ?  Probably jus tbarely, and healing is suicide since Clive's damage keeps going up.  But wait, reloads!  eh, Clive can get 4 bullets ez, so never mind.  This is actually pretty close though.
Holly vs Joachim (SH2)


Ninja (Bravely Default) vs Vyse (SoA) - Vyse's fire magic is insanely awful, but Counterstance halves Shippujinrai's damage to him while building SP and also gets a free counter off, forcing Ninja to have to waste more turns on Utsusemi, although at least Ninja can go to 3 BP during the Counterstance SP-building phase.  And Ninja has among the worst Magic Durabilities in the game - Vyse's 6 SP Fire spell is .14 PCHP damage, but Ninja sports an MDur of .63 PCHP, which is just beyond awful.  Vyse can spam Counterstance than 5HKO?!  No, Ninja's mighty .15 PCHP damage plus Brave Blitzing can handle that.  The fact that Vyse-mage had to be talked out is pathetic though.
Ninja vs Palom (FF4) - 4x Shippujinrai.
Ninja vs Jude (WA4) - Unless Mysticing attack items is allowed?!  Probably not even then.  EDIT: Wait Jude is faster what was I smoking.  SECOND EDIT: But Transience + Comeback Kid.  So Jude's stuck on the "pls let me start with 100 FP and Mystic my way to victory" strat.
Ninja vs Judecca (WA2)
Ninja vs Billy (XG) - Now that we know Id's famed Deathblow dodging is a separate check rather than normal evasion, I'd see XG deathblows as ignoring BD vanilla evasion (but getting nailed by Utsusemi of course).  So Haste-Heal and bust through the Utsusemi spam before running out of EP.  That isn't actually too hard.
Ninja vs Solo (DQ4) zap.
Ninja vs Snow (FF13) ruin'd.
Ninja vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF) - Hermes Sandals.
Ninja vs Alice (SH1) - the Brave Blitz, it is not enough.
Ninja vs Clive (WA3) - Gatling'd.
Ninja vs Joachim (SH2) - Stat topic says Drain Touch is magic, so.

Cordelia is 117% average speed and doubles everyone 103% average speed or slower.

Cordelia (FE13) vs Vyse (SoA) - but but WTA
Cordelia vs Palom (FF4) - executed
Cordelia vs Jude (WA4) - Jude is DOUBLING and HITTING A WEAKNESS.  This is ugly.
Cordelia vs Judecca (WA2) - Judecca's real slow?  What a shame.  Maybe hits weakness here but apparently has bad accuracy on his good damage anyway which Cordelia isn't making any better.
Cordelia vs Billy (XG) - Doubled and one-rounded.
Cordelia vs Solo (DQ4) - Solo is heal-locked, so he goes for Sleepmore, which is apparently very swingy by enemy, and Cordelia has solidly above-average Resistance.  Well then.
Cordelia vs Snow (FF13) - They each 2HKO (effectively) the other, Cordelia has movement range tiebreak and may not even need it (Snow needs to use Ruin turn 1 to avoid counters, maybe he loses the 2HKO thanks ot that?).
Cordelia vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF) - on one hand, Ragnar may hit weakness.  On the other hand, if FE9 is any guide, shoving someone on a horse or a pegasus is basically impossible.  Anyway Cordelia isn't doubling and is going second so this is kind of an uphill battle anyway, and Orbital Ring arguably skips counters.  Also Ragnar has evade.  Yeah.
Cordelia vs Alice (SH1) - Alice is heal-locked.
Cordelia vs Clive (WA3) Cordelia doesn't quuuuuuuuuuite one-round then gets shot from the sky.  EDIT: Wait, WA3 defense is so bad that Elf claims Clive gets one-rounded after all?  'k.
Cordelia vs Joachim (SH2) - How unfortunate for Mr. Vamp that Cordy is weak to wind, not earth.

Holly: 4-7
Ninja: 5-6
Cordelia: 8-3

Despite Holly & Ninja's similar scores, I suspect that vs. a weaker field, Holly would start to clean up, while Ninja still gets rolled by Middle mages, so Holly's the better dueler of the two.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 03:27:48 PM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2014, 02:21:13 PM »
Cordelia's 1.2x mdur. Snow risks missing a -3HKO- on Cordy if he goes for Ruin.
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Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2014, 01:16:48 AM »
Friendly reminder:

*After 1 Comeback Kid, Ninja's damage increases by 62.5%, after 2 it increases by 125%.

Also a high base evade (100% +) may prove useful vs. Jude?

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2014, 02:00:29 AM »
Let's say Comeback Kid is a threat.  Well, Jude just spams Phantom Line forever then, Ninja evade does nothing vs. specials, and he's getting doubles fast enough to not run out of MP if Ninja decides to spam Utsusemi in response.  Ninja's PDurability is not good, and Jude's is very good, to make things even worse.

Re Cordelia / Snow: I was more thinking Snow might 2HKO with 5xRuin -> 5x Attack, but yeah, that seems unlikely.  And is moot anyway.

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 02:10:20 AM »
Ninja's evade doing nothing vs. specials is a matter of interpretation. Jude's damage is explicitly based upon enemy Evade too.

With every Utsumemi that gets eaten up, a Transience goes through and buffs Ninja P.Atk. When Ninja's damage is 225% (after two Transiences) then Jude risks getting into the danger zone of being KOd by a finishing Brave Blitz.

If Ninja evade means nothing then I guess that tends to favor Jude, who can physical->Assault Buster until the AB KOs.

hinode

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2014, 02:13:14 AM »
Quote
Cordelia vs Sceptile (PKMN) - Hm. Cordelia has an easy 2HKO on Sceptile and she nerfs his draining to a degree with the MDef. However, Sceptile -still- 3HKOs and I see gen 3 Leaf Blade avoiding counters... and Agility should actually let him double Cordy. He also has a 3-2 on her if he goes that route, so, Agility, Cordelia turn (if she uses a Javelin for counters here, she just ends up losing anyway), Leaf Blade x4, collect victory.

Gen 3 Leaf Blade is still a contact move (triggers Rough Skin, Static, etc.), I don't see why it would dodge FE counters, personally.

There's enough non-consensus here for me to actually bother voting for once... but that also means I need to actually look stuff up. Tagged for later.

Edit:

Stat topic is missing Holly's actual speed, which according to a faq is 7 to a PC average of 9. That means she has little hope of lapping Solo and gets 3-2'd consistently by Sceptile.

Holly vs Palom (FF4)
Holly vs Solo (DQ4) - Damage outpaces her healing, and he's got enough resources to not run out vs the actual healing phase.
Holly vs Sceptile (PKMN) - Leaning Sceptile, still need to sort out exactly how much I respect Holly's HP though.

Ninja has three mostly non-competitive losses vs the three I can vote on, so I'll be lazy and skip them.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 03:28:35 AM by hinode »

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2014, 02:17:51 AM »
Pyro: Comeback Kid triggers on Utsusemi evade too?  Okay, fair enough, I'll have to think about that then some.  Utsusemi spam might yet take the day then.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2014, 02:31:34 AM »
Quote
Cordelia vs Sceptile (PKMN) - Hm. Cordelia has an easy 2HKO on Sceptile and she nerfs his draining to a degree with the MDef. However, Sceptile -still- 3HKOs and I see gen 3 Leaf Blade avoiding counters... and Agility should actually let him double Cordy. He also has a 3-2 on her if he goes that route, so, Agility, Cordelia turn (if she uses a Javelin for counters here, she just ends up losing anyway), Leaf Blade x4, collect victory.

Gen 3 Leaf Blade is still a contact move (triggers Rough Skin, Static, etc.), I don't see why it would dodge FE counters, personally.

Giga Drain to the rescue, then? IIRC, it's not a huge loss over Leaf Blade.
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2014, 11:58:59 PM »
Yeah, odd I forgot since the Ninja boss fight certainly shows it off, but Transience + Utsusemi means that sluggers really want multiacting to smash through Ninja, not so much high speed (unless it's Jeremy-level speed).  Comeback Kid buffs means Transience -> Transience -> 4x Shippukinrai kills Jude, and no way does he generate doubles so fast as to kill sooner than 3 Ninja actions.  (RA->Assault Buster is also screwed up by Ninja's evade here, maybe, since it's a special explicitly effected by evasion.)  Too bad, feels like Jude "deserves" to win, but oh well.

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2014, 08:00:30 AM »
Holly vs Palom (FF4): FF4o gets outslugged, although it's not a slaughter or anything since even Palom can take two hits here.
Holly vs Jude (WA4): Can Jude even be damaged here? I actually don't think he can be. Doesn't matter, Jude can output loads of damage given some time to get rolling.
Holly vs Judecca (WA2): Faster and healing roughly keeps pace with Miriam, before the fact that it misses.
Holly vs Billy (XG): Haste-healing should get past what Holly does.
Holly vs Solo (DQ4): Solo's sleep will have a 0% hit rate here for sure. Lightning does 0.69, but Holly heals 0.55. So +0.14 per use, plus the initial blast... yeah gets him through Holly.
Holly vs Snow (FF13): Pretty sure we just saw Holly vs stally FF13.
Holly vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF): Hmm. Ragnar doubleturns with a 7-6, which is before Holly can kill him, and a Hyper->Raving Rage on a double should kill.
Holly vs Sceptile (PKMN): Assuming wind hits weakness (it didn't in gen 1, but I guess most wind attacks do in gen 3 outside Razor Wind?)... Holly has a 3HKO! Which sounds great but yeah not really. Sceptile has a 5HKO and a 4-3 and the last attack triggers Overgrowth so hmm. Holly has to try to stall, but that seems impossible with the turnsplit, especially if she triggers Overgrowth at any point and she pretty much has to.
Holly vs Alice (SH1): Welp. Goodbye SP and MP.
Holly vs Clive (WA3): Clive is 6HKOed and probably faces a 6-5 so he has four turns to win by raw slugging, which he... can, so Holly has to heal in there somewhere. That said if Clive does go for the strategy I'm thinking of (Attack, Lock On three times), Holly can kinda shred it by healing as he gets low on MP so never mind that's out. He needs to hold everything in reserve for Gatling and I don't think that's going to work, his Gatling just doesn't hit hard enough until 100 FP.
Holly vs Joachim (SH2): Kneejerking that her MP lasts longer than Joachim's SP. I'm pretty sure I've never even considered Joachim losing a fight by running out of SP before.

Ninja vs Palom (FF4): All the shippus.
Ninja vs Jude (WA4): So Ninja can't damage Jude until she procs a Comeback Kid. So yeah, Jude never does? Just spam mystic items or something... although those are awful. Though... ninja CAN break through with criticals, and apparently those are 30% of the time? Never mind. Yeah, what everyone else said then.
Ninja vs Judecca (WA2): Sidewinder is pretty dangerous here! Ninja puts up Utsusemi of course, and Judecca uses Sidewinder... probably a 6HKO. So can ninja kill before then? She should get eight turns, one wasted on a buff. Plus three brave at the end. That's... yeah a bit shy of where I see Judecca's HP? Sad. EDIT: Never mind, Ninja using Shippu each turn is blazingly fast and should get in at least one more hit than I was thinking.
Ninja vs Billy (XG): Healing controls the fight, haste can make damage stick.
Ninja vs Solo (DQ4): Lightning.
Ninja vs Snow (FF13): Ruin.
Ninja vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF): Hahaha.
Ninja vs Sceptile (PKMN): Giga Drain, in case there's any risk of Ninja winning via damage.
Ninja vs Alice (SH1): Physical resistance makes ninja sad, probably just 3HKOs with magic easily.
Ninja vs Clive (WA3): Lock-On vs. Utsusemi? Feeling more hype for the latter.
Ninja vs Joachim (SH2): Rock Rot's 4HKO magic damage to save the day! Ninja gets four turns plus the Utsu one (see Judecca) and yeah that isn't enough. She's very close to getting the 6-4 she needs to me, but just falls short. I could flip this, it depends on what speed I take initiative-spam at (currently using 160%). EDIT: Never mind, I was assuming Joachim was average speed for some reason. She pulls off the 6-4 against 95%. Very close!

Cordelia vs Palom (FF4): Cordelia does 1.08 PCHP damage or so on a double. This really hurts.
Cordelia vs Jude (WA4): Cordelia is in some danger of tinking, but she misses it and 3HKOs. I have to think Jude can kill before then, since he's ranged except Assault Buster and Cordelia isn't actually that evasive.
Cordelia vs Judecca (WA2): Two-rounds.
Cordelia vs Billy (XG): Hi Billy. Bye Billy. There's a chance evade saves him but it's not as if he can blitz her or prevent her from taking another OHKO shot at him next turn.
Cordelia vs Solo (DQ4): Uh yeah Solo's pdur is like 1.2, Dragon Quest defence sucks and he's close to average HP. His only hope is to get really lucky with Dragon Quest sleep.
Cordelia vs Snow (FF13): Can easily overcome the stall, and in a direct slugfest, I doubt Snow 2HKOs to me even if I see him as faster, which I wouldn't - Cordelia's move is a much more compelling argument.
Cordelia vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF): Cordelia doesn't double, faces good evade, allows Ragnar to use Raving Rage, and is weakness-hit by Orbital Ring. Great.
Cordelia vs Sceptile (PKMN): Sceptile gets 2HKOed... but only by a Brave Lance which actually barely knocks him into Overgrowth which is really bad. He opens with Agility and doubles from there. Close but should be fine.
Cordelia vs Alice (SH1): Physical resistance is nice, but Cordelia still 2HKOs and is faster.
Cordelia vs Clive (WA3): Clive gets one turn here max. I guess you could argue him hitting weakness and OHKOing? I'm never sure how to scale FE weakness... 13's is worse than most in-game so this is actually kind of reasonable. On the other hand... no, Clive is only 102% HP and WA3 defence is kind of shit.
Cordelia vs Joachim (SH2): Joachim on the other hand should get a turn, but the instant death isn't good enough.

Cordelia 8-3. Ridiculously good against anyone slower than her. Kinda not good against those faster, at least in Heavy. This is a slow field.
Holly 6-5. Also likes slow fields since they can't use doubleturns to get past her healing, and spammable damage needed to overcome her isn't easy to come by, even Solo has troubles.
Ninja 6-5. The mage fear is strong in this one. Good to have a sense of just how crappy the magic can be before she can overcome it, though! Borderline match against mage Joachim aw yeah.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 03:24:08 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2014, 02:09:56 PM »
Re Solo/Holly: Solo is using the Sword of Lethargy to inflict sleep, as that ignores status resistance.  It's generally not a great DL option for him in Heavy and above due to it not being super accurate, but it's more effective than Sleepmore against Holly's defenses.
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interrobangbang

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle 1-Bravely Default, go!
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2014, 09:02:17 PM »

Holly vs Palom (FF4)
Holly vs Jude (WA4) - yeah no bye holly
Holly vs Snow (FF13) - I think?
Holly vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF) - Healing's not enough here.
Holly vs Sceptile (PKMN) - Outspeeds, Holly can't kill fast enough here.
Holly vs Joachim (SH2) - hrm, yeah, I doubt ID works on Holly - bosses have some status holes in BD but not this many.

Ninja vs Palom (FF4) - pffft.
Ninja vs Jude (WA4) - pfft.
Ninja vs Snow (FF13) - Ruin works
Ninja vs RAGNAR BLITZ LEBRETT (XF)
Ninja vs Sceptile (PKMN) - Gen 3 wins this cleanly.
Ninja vs Joachim (SH2) - Shouldn't have issues getting the needed turns?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:12:07 PM by interrobangbang »