Author Topic: Proving Grounds m/h 2  (Read 1787 times)

superaielman

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Proving Grounds m/h 2
« on: May 14, 2014, 09:50:16 PM »
BD Thief- Speed and some offense.
Cecil- Stalwart FF main. Isn't as good as you'd expect in the DL, thanks to endgame damage jumping a whole lot and hating Holy defense. Can he hang onto Heavy?
Tharja- FE13 nom.

Thief (Bravely Default) vs Articuno (PMKN)
Thief vs Fuse (Saga)
Thief vs Mazus (S2)
Thief vs Summoner (FF5)
Thief vs Amon (Lufia 2)
Thief vs Jean (Lunar:EBC)
Thief vs Rena (SO2)
Thief vs Guy (FE7)
Thief vs Pepperoni (MK2)
Thief vs Odie (SN)
Thief vs Bowser (SMRPG)
Thief vs Cecile (S3)

Cecil (FF4) vs Articuno (PMKN)
Cecil vs Fuse (Saga)
Cecil vs Mazus (S2)
Cecil vs Summoner (FF5)
Cecil vs Amon (Lufia 2)
Cecil vs Jean (Lunar:EBC)
Cecil vs Rena (SO2)
Cecil vs Guy (FE7)
Cecil vs Pepperoni (MK2)
Cecil vs Odie (SN)
Cecil vs Bowser (SMRPG)
Cecil vs Cecile (S3)

Tharja (FE13) vs Articuno (PMKN)
Tharja vs Fuse (Saga)
Tharja vs Mazus (S2)
Tharja vs Summoner (FF5)
Tharja vs Amon (Lufia 2)
Tharja vs Jean (Lunar:EBC)
Tharja vs Rena (SO2)
Tharja vs Guy (FE7)
Tharja vs Pepperoni (MK2)
Tharja vs Odie (SN)
Tharja vs Bowser (SMRPG)
Tharja vs Cecile (S3)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 11:41:54 PM »
Cecil (FF4) vs Articuno (PMKN) - Cecil and pressure.
Cecil vs Fuse (Saga) - what
Cecil vs Mazus (S2) - e: dafuq empty world actually being useful
Cecil vs Summoner (FF5) - Odin and/or Golem
Cecil vs Amon (Lufia 2) - Weird, but I think Snow's right, Cecil isn't quite durable enough to take two Amon physicals and I doubt Amon's so frail as to get OHKO'd by a single Cecil physical, 3x holy weakness be damned.
Cecil vs Jean (Lunar:EBC) - Nope.
Cecil vs Rena (SO2) - Probably.
Cecil vs Guy (FE7) - Letting Guy get that many cracks at you is bad for your health.
Cecil vs Pepperoni (MK2)
Cecil vs Odie (SN) - oh dear.  Even with assuming attack matches are as close to neutral as possible given the skill set as a whole and Cecil's lightning resistance this is still an uphill battle if we're considering counters, which is fair enough to me.
Cecil vs Bowser (SMRPG)
Cecil vs Cecile (S3) - jesus christ Cecil against that def/evade combo.  He may as well just put on a blindfold.

Tharja (FE13) vs Articuno (PMKN) - Yeah I'm gonna say Tomebreaker gets to be badass enough.  Also Articuno is a bird and is clearly weak to Rexcalibur (not that she needs it here)
Tharja vs Fuse (Saga) - eh sure
Tharja vs Mazus (S2) - Tharja's RES actually isn't that great (only slightly above average) so Mazus could OHKO her... if he hit.  Don't think he has quite enough time for that though.
Tharja vs Summoner (FF5) - On the other hand I am not quite so sure on Odin being something she deals with.  e: never mind Carbunkle lol
Tharja vs Amon (Lufia 2) - dat speed
Tharja vs Jean (Lunar:EBC) - Tharja has issues sealing this away before the paralysis lands, I think.
Tharja vs Rena (SO2) - Unless Rena can block literally everything Tharja can access at once.
Tharja vs Guy (FE7) - I remember you.
Tharja vs Pepperoni (MK2) - oh gross Pepperoni can immune dark and it gives him more mdef to work with.  That... may not be enough, though, since Tharja can just use fire instead.  Pepperoni kind of hideously slow when going for actual offense and the delay move isn't terribly useful in the face of counters.  Not blocking dark seems like it would just give Pepperoni too many issues here. e: eh going back with initial gut.
Tharja vs Odie (SN) - Regardless of how I feel about the SN type match clusterfuck, Tomebreaker makes sure that any attempt Odie makes to deal damage is going to fail a lot harder than Odie's type matches could possibly make Tharja's.
Tharja vs Bowser (SMRPG) - Kneejerk says that Fear is likely enough. e: on second thought it's probably something I'd see as Tomebreakable anyways.
Tharja vs Cecile (S3) - Cecile is more antiphysical than anything.  Nos means she's not 3HKOing and she goes second anyways.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 07:21:15 PM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2014, 03:53:03 AM »
Since it's so insanely important for Thief...  hrmm.  Light & Puny show that Default spamming is a pretty huge boon for the cast, which is okay, but I think I'm fine with controlling it to a degree, too. So for my default interp....  Since the 3-turn damage average allows for a Default turn in there, I think I'll let BD duelers, if they ever want to use Default, eat an additional +20% damage to everything.  (If they never want to use Default, it's like normal.)  So there's a nice shields-down moment when not Defaulting (eat extra damage), but Default still works as advertised with half damage compared to normal.  (This means that 3 attacks of average damage do 1.20 PCHP to both interps - (.40*2*1.2) + (.40*1.2*0.5) = 1.20 for the 1 default + 2 regular turns). 

I definitely prefer this to disabling the damage-reduction properties of Default (not true to in-game), but still being "fair" to other casts.  (Templar can get Default at full effectiveness for free of course.)

For Thief this basically means his default turns are only -40% damage rather than -50% damage, and if he's unlucky enough to face someone faster they are going to punch him in the face REALLY hard before Thief's third turn.

For my own reference: Thief does .70 PCHP on turn 1, or 1.40 PCHP on turn 3 when not going for bow draining.

Thief vs Mazus (S2) - Holy crap that's a lot of damage for Mazus in the stat topic.  Default isn't saving Thief.
Thief vs Summoner (FF5) - Status of multiple varieties, Thief misses the OHKO.
Thief vs Amon (Lufia 2) - You get full IP meters before the Sinistrals, only fair to assume Thief starts with 3 BP.
Thief vs Jean (Lunar:EBC) - Block Paralysis.  Jean can go for Sleep but even with double damage vs. a non-Defaulting Thief is it enough?  I doubt it.
Thief vs Rena (SO2) -but but PROTECTION
Thief vs Guy (FE7) - GUY IS DOUBLED WTF
Thief vs Cecile (S3) - Cecile doesn't 2HKO even if Default didn't work, which it does to me.

Cecil vs Mazus (S2)
Cecil vs Summoner (FF5)
Cecil vs Amon (Lufia 2) - Holy vs. a Sinistral, that's gonna leave a mark.
Cecil vs Jean (Lunar:EBC) - Paralysis not blocked here apparently.
Cecil vs Rena (SO2) - Cecil blocks Silence, so this is an MP contest...  with the Fallen Hope Rena can heal 35 times, or maybe more like 34 since she'll want to buff up.  And Rena halves Holy.  Well crap.  Could be convinced otherwise by stats but looking depressingly likely, since Cecil's healing is notably weaker than Rena's....
Cecil vs Guy (FE7) - Counters.
Cecil vs Cecile (S3) - Oh god.  Cecil's healing barely keeps up with Cecille's damage and Cecille has low-probabilty stun attached, so he needs to outslug here into Cecille's excellent PDef.  REALLY excllent PDef, like -.20 PCHP off of every physical by straight up subtractive defense.  No.

Tharja vs Mazus (S2) - oh boy Tomebreaker interp fun.  Mazus's weapon is a rod.  I'll be nice today, his position is apparently "Arch Magi" which is pretty MAGEMAGEMAGEy and a rod is one of those classic things only mages have.
Tharja vs Summoner (FF5)
Tharja vs Amon (Lufia 2)
Tharja vs Jean (Lunar:EBC) - Jean's dances have damage attached so she's eating counters...  if only Waste was accurate at range.  Paralysis is sufficiently fatal that even if it takes 2 attempts, Tharja can't 2HKO Jean's suspect MDef reliably with 4x Waste.
Tharja vs Rena (SO2) - Thoron crits, switch to Nosferatu occasonally to get more time?  Close though, Tharja could well need something like a Thoron counter-crit -> follow-up 2x Waste hit.  Although Rena can halve Thunder fairly cheaply...  hrmm.  Nah, Rena's damage is so horrible that Tharja can sit at half-life and throw Vengeance powered blasts of Waste out and wait for good luck before switching back to Nos.
Tharja vs Guy (FE7) - Yup, coinflip match, good times.
Tharja vs Cecile (S3) - Nos.

Thief: 5-2
Cecil: 1-6 (WTF, he's not THAT bad.  Rough field for the tank.)
Tharja: 3-3-1

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2014, 04:25:09 AM »
If you don't just see Tomebreaker hitting all evadable magic (which is what it does in-game, barring the extremely rare magic sword/axe), then I'd argue that it should at least hit mages wielding other obvious mage weapons such as rods and staves. Otherwise you're taking a great in-game skill and making it virtually worthless for sake of semantics.

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Maybe.

superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2014, 12:48:39 PM »
Thief (Bravely Default) vs Articuno (PMKN)- Pressure owns Thief to a hilarious degree.
Thief vs Fuse (Saga)- No clue. Did godspeed strike ignore evade?
Thief vs Mazus (S2)
Thief vs Summoner (FF5)
Thief vs Amon (Lufia 2)- 2HKO. Thief can't drain his way out of trouble here and he sure as hell can't slug his way out.
Thief vs Jean (Lunar:EBC)- Kneejerk.
Thief vs Rena (SO2)
Thief vs Guy (FE7)- Drain game does it's thing.
Thief vs Pepperoni (MK2)- Gets that third turn.
Thief vs Odie (SN)- Rather suspect that he brutalizes, giving Odie turns is a bad idea.
Thief vs Bowser (SMRPG)- Fear.
Thief vs Cecile (S3)- ITD offense.

Cecil (FF4) vs Articuno (PMKN)-Sheer cold.  Unless that checked ice resistance in game (Which I really doubt it did), there's no way Cecil's outracing 30% ID. Which is a lot of his problem, his damage isn't good.
Cecil vs Fuse (Saga)- Fuse's type of fight..
Cecil vs Mazus (S2)- Blazing Camp is completely useless here, S2 combined magic specifically checks elemental resistance for both sides of the spells when it's cast.
Cecil vs Summoner (FF5)
Cecil vs Amon (Lufia 2)-Mmm, how durable do I see Amon? Amon is missing the 2HKO so Cecil gets two physicals. That's 1.4 PCHP. Eh sure, let's go with the one that isn't absolutely awful in game.
Cecil vs Jean (Lunar:EBC)- Cecil can't block sleep/poison.
Cecil vs Rena (SO2)-For FF4 status arrows to matter, you have to be: really slow, and really undamaging. Guess what Rena is!
Cecil vs Guy (FE7)- Guy's damage adds up here very quickly, even with Cecil's defense.
Cecil vs Pepperoni (MK2)- Status arrows tilt a second fight!? This is pathetic. Cecil's getting at least three cracks to land something, should be enough.
Cecil vs Odie (SN)- Elemental spoiling.
Cecil vs Bowser (SMRPG)- Esuna handles Fear and Boswer can't win the fight without that offhand.
Cecil vs Cecile (S3)- Defense.

Cecil has issues. Amon/Rena/Pepperoni were all pretty close matches that c ould easily go the other way, Bowser could flip as well depending on how much you respect SMRPG FP. He really needs to elemenetally spoil mages to be able to deal with them.

Cecil: 6-6
Thief: 5-6
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2014, 03:40:02 PM »
Thief (Bravely Default) vs Articuno (PMKN) - Thief 3-2s unless Articuno uses Agility, but that does absolutely nothing to keep Thief from getting three turns and ripping the bird in half if Arti doesn't OHKO. Articuno deals 76% PC HP with Blizzard: do I see Thief below that in mdur? Yeah sure.
Thief vs Fuse (Saga) - Thief sacrifices some speed to block Palsy (mostly relevant for GSS damage, since over three SDs above average still pretty much rams my TB speed cap), but the result's still pretty clear: Fuse can't OHKO Thief and she's getting her third turn before Fuse even if he casts Awakening. To super: Godspeed Strike ignores Bravely Default basic evade, but rams into Utsusemi.
Thief vs Mazus (S2) - This is some -horrific- overkill.
Thief vs Summoner (FF5) - At the absolute worst, Shoat against THAT mdef is very ugly. Not sure how I feel about Golem walling GSS, but it's not very relevant.
Thief vs Amon (Lufia 2) - Thief has... a 1.44 turnsplit on Amon, I believe? That's not really enough. Trying the draining game drops Thief's durability to appalling levels, enough to eat a OHKO from Amon.
Thief vs Jean (Lunar:EBC) - No 3-2 and Thief can't block both Sleep and Paralysis. To make matters worse, EBO Jean has a straight attack buff she can use to ensure a KO and she likely towers at the top of the damage curve.
Thief vs Rena Lanford (SO2) - lulz.
Thief vs Guy (FE7) - Bravely Default PCs no likey FE counters. Guy doesn't double, obviously, but the odds of him evading a GSS are -way- too high.
Thief vs Pepperoncino (MK2) - Pepperoni lives through a GSS string, holy shit (and obviously 2HKOs her ass). This means Thief's money lies in... Life Thief. But does that even -work-? I don't think so - Thief gets heal-locked by the fairy's -basic physical- that way and his COUNTERS also put a lot of pressure (if Pepperoni counters Thief -after- a double, he just finishes her off). Yeah, no dice.
Thief vs Odie (SN) - Also horrific, even ignoring Odie has a match advantage on Thief.
Thief vs Bowser (SMRPG) - Thief instadoubles to me, which is bad news for Bowser. However, Fear puts a crimp on the GSS string strategy - Thief needs to land a third GSS here, and this requires -six- turns of hers (Default twice, GSS, Default twice, Brave-burst into GSSx2. Buuuut... given the insane split (Bowser needs three turns himself to win, as he doesn't 2HKO without Fear), yeah, she gets them to me. Any less respect towards her speed tilts the fight the other way, however.
Thief vs Cecile (S3) - Godspeed Strike being ITD kinda puts a crimp on Cecile's tanking game. Not sure I respect Shield Protect against ITD that ignores a form of evasion either.

4-8. The problems with Thief's strategy are pretty obvious here. The windup turns for Godspeed Strike are really important for her - especially when having to deal with status. Thief also -doesn't- like missing 3-2s with the sketchy durability across the board. This pool also exploits her issues quite capably, to boot.

Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Articuno (PMKN) - Ice resistance means Articuno 4HKOs with Ice Beam while Cecil... 5HKOs himself and Cura barely undoes a single attack (so, Cecil's wasting turns if he attempts healing). So, Agility and pressure off Ice Beam while hoping to force Cecil to heal or Freeze to proc. This -shouldn't- work, but Cecil's pressure is lacking enough that it actually does.
Cecil Harvey vs Fuse (Saga) - Coup du grace spamming and healing until the instant death lands. Cecil just really can't handle status stalling he can't block.
Cecil Harvey vs Mazus (S2) - EDIT: Empty World? REALLY?
Cecil Harvey vs Summoner (FF5) - Odin, infinite lols. Summoner can even drop a Golem on top of it just to troll Cecil harder.
Cecil Harvey vs Amon (Lufia 2) - Ew, Amon 2HKOs Cecil with his physical. Cecil shouldn't OHKO back - actually, it's not even THAT GOOD a 2HKO, godDAMMIT Cecil.
Cecil Harvey vs Jean (Lunar:EBC) - Paralysis.
Cecil Harvey vs Rena Lanford (SO2) - Status physicals do not work on anyone slower than the user and I -think- I don't see Rena as below average speed (decent casting speed on her healing and a fast physical, which is her main offense). To make things -ugly-, she halves Holy, which means Cecil's running off comparable offense to her, less resources and no buffing game. Dear -god-, Cecil.
Cecil Harvey vs Guy (FE7) - This is a lot of pressure.
Cecil Harvey vs Pepperoncino (MK2) - On the other hand... yeah. Pepperoni's resource issues kinda bite him. The ID isn't really tilting anything with those odds.
Cecil Harvey vs Odie (SN) - Pain Rune, counters and the limit threat = Cecil breaks a cold sweat regardless of elemental resistance.
Cecil Harvey vs Bowser (SMRPG) - Esuna and Cura kinda put a crimp on the Fear strategy, especially since Bowser still only 3HKOs AFTER Fear. Iunno.
Cecil Harvey vs Cecile (S3) - Jesus. Cecil's healing could even be useful here, but he can -scarcely damage Cecile-, and he's not very fond of S3 crits.

2-10. Um. Yeah, that's not a Heavy-level performance. Cecil -really- needed more than sub-40% PC HP healing and Light-bait offense to compliment the veritable durability. I'll just put it this way: if you're losing to fucking Rena Lanford in the lower end of a Proving Grounds pool, you honestly shouldn't be mucking around in Heavy ever.

Tharja (FE13) vs Articuno (PMKN) - I'm in the "Tomebreaker is fucking badass camp", so Articuno's best bet is PECK. That uh 6HKOs Tharja and is pure melee. Tharja herself three-rounds Arti with Waste. Yyyyyyyyeah.
Tharja vs Fuse (Saga) - Interesting! Tomebreaker makes Palsy suck to me, but I believe post-Awakening Fuse -baaaarely- doubles and then 2HKOs Tharja of the below average speed... and he gets 2HKOed anyway and loses the first turn. So, Tharja opens with Waste, which forces Fuse to Awakening and Mindheal first thing. Since capped speed in SaGa Frontier is only 4-3-level against average, this makes the fight a bit questionable. On turns Fuse gets a CTB double, Tharja can equip Nos to survive a single double... but she can't even break even unless Vengeance kicks in. Yeah, don't think that'll work out for her.
Tharja vs Mazus (S2) - Mazus doesn't need Blazing Camp to OHKO, but Thor's Rage is turn -three- against Tomebreaker evade and triggers counters. I think she manages, though the accuracy issues make this take a lot longer than she'd like (and she's likely reduced to Bolganone here anyway, Silver Hats make her Dark tomes suck).
Tharja vs Summoner (FF5) - Carbuncle makes Tharja cry herself to sleep.
Tharja vs Amon (Lufia 2) - EDIT: Amon definitely doesn't resist Darkness, but Galactic Lancer (which is MT)+physical is a KO, so Tharja needs to be equipped with Nosferatu or die on her next turn. Amon 5-4s... so can Tharja 3HKO with two Nosferatus + Waste? *Mathmathmath.* EDIT: Actually, mathing out Amon's HP without factoring in weaknesses gives him actually 1.5x PC HP. God, it's times like -this- that make me -want- to give double credit to weaknesses. Stupid Sinistrals.
Tharja vs Rena Lanford (SO2) - I'll just hang onto SnowFire's argument and run.
Tharja vs Guy (FE7) - Hello.
Tharja vs Pepperoncino (MK2) - Immunes Dark and 2HKOs. With Bolganone, Tharja... 4HKOs back. Yeah, that won't pan out.
Tharja vs Odie (SN) - Tharja has issues hitting Odie, but Odie himself fails hardcore at it. So, Deepspell to get the damage in immediately and hope Tharja runs out of HP before he does. He lowers Tharja's damage as well with his matches, but he -also- suffers a damage penalty, so this mostly exists to nerf Nosferatu... and really, I donno. I'm suspecting Tharja -actually- ekes this out, mostly because Odie himself is kinda inaccurate at base. But not a simple match by any means.
Tharja vs Bowser (SMRPG) - Fear -certainly- ain't turn one against Tomebreaker. Tharja herself three-rounds at worst.
Tharja vs Cecile (S3) - Dear god.

6-6. Strange, strange performance. Could flip a couple those later as well.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 02:29:48 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2014, 09:22:48 PM »
I think she manages, though the accuracy issues make this take a lot longer than she'd like (and she's likely reduced to Bolganone here anyway, Silver Hats make her Dark tomes suck).

Nitpick: If you see Tomebreaker as working, then Tharja's accuracy issues vanish - good ol' +50% to her own hit.  Even if Waste is halved it's probably better than Bolganone here, more chances for a Vengeance proc.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2014, 04:12:46 AM »
I think she manages, though the accuracy issues make this take a lot longer than she'd like (and she's likely reduced to Bolganone here anyway, Silver Hats make her Dark tomes suck).

Nitpick: If you see Tomebreaker as working, then Tharja's accuracy issues vanish - good ol' +50% to her own hit.  Even if Waste is halved it's probably better than Bolganone here, more chances for a Vengeance proc.

Yeah, you're right! I forgot about -that- perk! Thanks. Also makes Odie vs. Tharja simpler, since she doesn't struggle to hit anymore.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
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Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2014, 11:09:13 PM »
Thief (Bravely Default) vs Articuno (PMKN): Thief wants to Default->Default->GSSx2... Articuno responds with Agility -> Snowstorm ->Snowstorm before Thief's big turn. So that's 1.5x Snowstorms. That works.
Thief vs Fuse (Saga)
Thief vs Mazus (S2): Don't think an OHKO happens through Default? So second turn pumps out enough damage with Life Thiefx2/B&B->GSS
Thief vs Summoner (FF5): Misses the OHKO by a few %
Thief vs Amon (Lufia 2): Think the magic OHKOs
Thief vs Jean (Lunar:EBC): Two statuses and Thief is out? But... That gives Thief the abilty to deal... ~93% PCHP that second turn. and Jean is a bit better than that?
Thief vs Rena (SO2): He can do this.
Thief vs Guy (FE7): Isn't doubled and two Guy attacks shouldn't KO the defense build?
Thief vs Pepperoni (MK2): Thief can't do it in two GSSs (by like 1%)? Wow. So Thief needs to default *3* times and unleash havoc that 4th turn. That would give Pepperoni 3 turns to pound at half damage... That probably works.
Thief vs Odie (SN) Counters KO.
Thief vs Bowser (SMRPG): Blocks Fear.
Thief vs Cecile (S3): Easy enough.

Cecil (FF4) vs Articuno (PMKN)
Cecil vs Fuse (Saga)
Cecil vs Mazus (S2): Elemental Res
Cecil vs Summoner (FF5)
Cecil vs Amon (Lufia 2)
Cecil vs Jean (Lunar:EBC): Status.
Cecil vs Rena (SO2): She had some way of boning fighters?
Cecil vs Guy (FE7)
Cecil vs Pepperoni (MK2): Resource issues?
Cecil vs Odie (SN)
Cecil vs Bowser (SMRPG): Esuna!
Cecil vs Cecile (S3)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2014, 11:22:22 PM »
Mazus only misses a OHKO with Blazing Camp through Default if Thief's above 86% mdur. That's 1.72x PC HP right off the bat.
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[01:08] <Laggy> .....

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2014, 12:03:39 AM »
I allow Fire Emblems and such for the cast which tends to raise the damage average to the point where Mazus' damage is less impressive. (1.6x PCHP instead of 1.72 PCHP? It makes a difference at least).

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2014, 12:44:34 AM »
That's still 80% PC HP under Default and I'm pretty sure BD mdef isn't so irrelevant as to not put Thief's egregious score in it within that danger range.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2014, 09:01:13 AM »
No default damage reduction. Obviously matters for thief.

Y'know if you allow defend commands at all then some people will want to use them against thief so that they can laugh at his face as he drops to -4 BP failing to kill them. This would give someone like, say, Mazus, a 50/50 shot at winning even if you assume that defaulting thief can survive Blazing Camp.

Thief (Bravely Default) vs Articuno (PMKN): Blizzard really hurts. Arti also probably deserves some sort of level boost to boot.
Thief vs Fuse (Saga): Pretty sure I see Thief with a 3-2 here. There's a case to not respect his speed at all on turns he's defaulting which would make him much worse... hmm.
Thief vs Mazus (S2): Kaboom.
Thief vs Summoner (FF5): Well Golem kinda makes an utter mockery of thief.
Thief vs Amon (Lufia 2): Sadly.
Thief vs Jean (Lunar:EBC): Avoids a 3-2 or dying on turn 2.
Thief vs Rena (SO2): Yeah no.
Thief vs Guy (FE7): Thief eats counters unless he uses a bow, at which point he's pretty frail, and I'm not inclined to let BD skills ignore evade against evasion which is very all-encompassing (hi Utsusemi).
Thief vs Pepperoni (MK2): I'll trust Snow; I have no idea myself. Except to say that Life Thief is so bad, don't kid yourself guys.
Thief vs Odie (SN): 2HKOs at worst (very possibly OHKOs), and has a counter coming. And defensive matchup. Uh oh.
Thief vs Bowser (SMRPG): Was going to vote Bowser, but then remembered BD is one of the few casts that deals with Fear! So yeah, standard Thief win from there.
Thief vs Cecile (S3): S3 evade not encompassing enough to deal with BD skills, so thief goes to Godspeed Strike land.

Cecil (FF4) vs Articuno (PMKN): Even with ice resistance, Cecil's not going to win this slugfest. That's... kind of alarming. Cura is out because freeze will come along.
Cecil vs Fuse (Saga): Don't think Cecil stopped instant death?
Cecil vs Mazus (S2): Sigh. Empty World. Pretty sure that's non-elemental. Mazus is about more than Blazing Camp, and while Empty World shouldn't beat too many heavies, it's enough for Cecil I think. The resisted Thor Shots at L3 aren't bad either, in case two Empty Worlds fails to overwhelm healing. Cecil's only shot is that Mazus dies to two Cecil physicals + two Empty World backlashes, but I remember Empty World backlash being puny against high MDef (strangely the stat topic doesn't note it).
Cecil vs Summoner (FF5): No.
Cecil vs Amon (Lufia 2): Sadly. While I want to kneejerk the other way, Amon had surprisingly good damage for someone who is completely harmless in-game. Snow's almost surely right.
Cecil vs Jean (Lunar:EBC): Missing some key blockers there.
Cecil vs Rena (SO2): See Snowfire? Not sure if I allow status arrows, can't most of the cast use them? Could be argued here, I've never firmed up my cutoff point for status-weapon legality.
Cecil vs Guy (FE7): No.
Cecil vs Pepperoni (MK2): Sure.
Cecil vs Odie (SN): Odie 3HKOs after lightning resistance and before type matchup. Which might make it a 2HKO. And if Cecil somehow stalls this out, he gets a limit. Yikes.
Cecil vs Bowser (SMRPG): Back to people Fear works on.
Cecil vs Cecile (S3): Better at the same thing and certainly overwhelms the healing.

Tharja (FE13) vs Articuno (PMKN): For what it's worth natural-style attacks like pokemon special moves are the type of thing I could see Tomebreaker not affecting, and Articuno certainly wins without it, as he is tanky enough to withstand two Rexcaliburs and damaging enough to overcome Nosferatu. But... yeah, "works on all magic attacks in the game" is pretty impressive, let's give that some respect we don't normally give to the inferior Parasols of the world.
Tharja vs Fuse (Saga): I imagine, anyway. Waste is a 3HKO and as a rule of thumb I don't view speed modifiers as changing doubling ability so that avenue is out.
Tharja vs Mazus (S2): Breakin' your tomes.
Tharja vs Summoner (FF5): Carbuncle gives her time to land Odin.
Tharja vs Amon (Lufia 2): Probably has darkness resistance or something similarly lame. May not need it. Screw Amon with a rusty fork.
Tharja vs Jean (Lunar:EBC): Some status should permit wrecking.
Tharja vs Rena (SO2): Should overwhelm unless Rena can resist both lightning and dark... may overwhelm even then.
Tharja vs Guy (FE7): Nope.
Tharja vs Pepperoni (MK2): dat dark immunity.
Tharja vs Odie (SN): Odie has some dark mage resistance, but he also eats a damage penalty and TOMEBREAKER.
Tharja vs Bowser (SMRPG): Tomebreaker mocks fear, counters eat Bowser's normal damage.
Tharja vs Cecile (S3): Cecile vs. mages: not very good.

Tharja 7-4. Solid enough certainly. Her Nos-tanking isn't as good as some previous dark mages (although not being doubled much helps a lot) but it's serviceable and hey Tomebreaker is awesome.
Thief 4-8. Probably isn't heavy, but there's a case.
Cecil 1-11. Um yeah, he has a low 4HKO off good durability and some weak healing. Good equipment gets him to Middle but he's nowhere near Heavy sadly.

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2014, 06:20:56 PM »
Quote
Y'know if you allow defend commands at all then some people will want to use them against thief so that they can laugh at his face as he drops to -4 BP failing to kill them. This would give someone like, say, Mazus, a 50/50 shot at winning even if you assume that defaulting thief can survive Blazing Camp.

But if Thief sees them defending he just Defaults too and it goes on thusly. So both are forced to attack from that point by convention.

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2014, 06:29:42 PM »
The thing is, you can't actually "see" defend commands until you've committed to your attack (and this is definitely a problem for BD characters trying to mount brave-blitzes in-game!). And since defend commands have initiative (at least in these two games; not in say, ATB games or PS4) you can't say who would get to see whose action first.

So turn 2 for Mazus/Thief (assuming turn 1 was Thief Default, Mazus use some spell or other, which will absolutely be the case as thief can't win turn 1 by attacking so Mazus has no reason not to attack and thief must defend) is a guessing game:

Both attack: Thief wins
Thief attack and Mazus defend: Mazus wins
Thief defend and Mazus attack: Mazus wins
Both defend: Repeat except Thief has 1 more BP to play with

Actually this situation seems to favour Mazus to me, now that I look at it!

Situations like this are actually pretty common with defend commands allowed and one reason I stopped allowing them (the others being: they aren't unique at all, and they allow moves such as Jump/Silent Lake to be spoiled in ways they can't be spoiled in-game).

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2014, 06:39:05 PM »
Tharja vs Fuse (Saga): I imagine, anyway. Waste is a 3HKO and as a rule of thumb I don't view speed modifiers as changing doubling ability so that avenue is out.

That definitely puts the ball in Tharja's court. Without doubling, Fuse indeed doesn't win the fight.

Also, in regards to Amon: he doesn't resist darkness, according to super's topic. I actually did some math, though, and he probably takes the match to you anyway, unless you have a view of his HP as dim as -I- do (I certainly don't see him as above 90% PC HP).
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 06:51:03 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2014, 06:53:56 PM »
I'd love to see Amon that frail but yeah I can't really buy it.

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2014, 07:25:29 PM »
For what it's worth well-timed Defend commands absolutely screw up BD brave-blitz's game with headachey guessing games, just like in-game, and I wouldn't care if it didn't happen in-game anyway per earlier discussion in the Ranking topic.  (Things getting spoiled in the DL that don't get spoiled in-game is pretty well par for the course; take really cleanly legal cases like Pokemon Protect, which DOES spoil Jump-type moves in the defender's game and has no uniqueness problems, so sorry called shot users that have no defending enemies in your home game).  So yeah, defense guessing games should be included!  Of course all of this is extremely moot for Mazus anyway since he uh OHKOs through Default, and I usually think I'm the one harsh on S2 damage averages.  (And if Thief had an argument, it'd be Default -> 2x Life Thief + GSS to get the kill, which means equipping a Bow, which means EVEN WORSE MDur so he probably gets OHKO'd now if he wasn't before.  Oh and I think this is JUST BARELY BARELY a kill if anything since Mazus's HP is fine and GSS is ITD, so not being helped by a weaker defense.)

That said, I will disagree with Elf on Guy vs. Thief.  I dunno about FE evasion vs. BD; BD is a game that actually has an accuracy & evasion stats, and all the specials explicitly skip it, so it's not like Thief can even equip a Dex boosting accessory usefully here to up his Hit%, because it'd already be perfect in-game.  Sure FE characters dodge BD magic, but specials I might be inclined to at least give them an accuracy boost (Bow Thief would be among the more accurate members of the cast anyway had it mattered!  Probably #2 after Ranger?), Utsusemi is a class better than FE evasion vs. physicals.  But you know what, let's assume for argument's sake BD accuracy is useless and FE evade is awesome.  This STILL seems like a massively uphill battle for Guy.  If he grabs a Silver Sword he's ramming into constant double Life Thief to keep Thief at full.  If he grabs a Killing Edge...  well, the same thing happens, I don't think an Edge crit is even fatal if Thief is at full health.  If Thief gets worried he's low on life (maybe he missed some Life Thiefs?) just #YOLO double Godspeed Strike once Guy has taken even a little damage and probably collect the KO even if one misses.  This match is just nightmarish for Guy, he needs something like 2 Killing Edge crits in a row and to dodge the doubled Life Thief that gets returned to him - and it's even worse on turn 1, since Thief probably opens by Defaulting (even assuming no reduction!) so that a crit on turn 1 runs into FOUR Life Thiefs on turn 2.  Okay so never mind, Guy just wants to grab a Silver Sword after all and hope for OHKO critz, but there isn't a lot of time, and I dunno if I'd assume DL characters have the 0 Luck Morphs do.  This is pretty ugly.

(for reference: the FE7 equal XP topic claims Silver Sword Guy has 20 damage to a 57 killpoint, or 16 KE damage, which would be a 48 damage crit I presume.  Thief has .96 physical durability and drains half his life back on a successful hit once Burgle & Bluff maxes, which will be fast thanks to the doubles.)

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2014, 07:41:57 PM »
Yeah I'm going to call bullshit on Amon's HP being that low. 10000 HP is still solid in game on paper. The only reason it's not is hitting weakness as strongly as you do in game and IPs.
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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2014, 07:56:51 PM »
Quote
I dunno about FE evasion vs. BD; BD is a game that actually has an accuracy & evasion stats, and all the specials explicitly skip it, so it's not like Thief can even equip a Dex boosting accessory usefully here to up his Hit%, because it'd already be perfect in-game.  Sure FE characters dodge BD magic, but specials I might be inclined to at least give them an accuracy boost (Bow Thief would be among the more accurate members of the cast anyway had it mattered!  Probably #2 after Ranger?)

I am fine with saying that BD specials have some sort of accuracy boost. I wouldn't let thief equip for dex, no, but I would treat their attacks as 100 dex against an average which includes a mix of specials and the characters who are actually reliant on hitting? Not sure. I'm still sorting out my views on this subject. Just... yeah not really buying them as outright ITE all the time.

Quote
If he grabs a Silver Sword he's ramming into constant double Life Thief to keep Thief at full.  If he grabs a Killing Edge...  well, the same thing happens, I don't think an Edge crit is even fatal if Thief is at full health.

As our past discussions have showed, we have a different view on the sliding scale of FE doubling. In particular, I do not see Thief doubling Guy. I don't think he's even especially close. (math: using SDs thief would be 207% speed ignoring the TB cap the way I scale, double speed = 7 FE speed, so thief is like +7.3 where Guy is +6.2 with Silver, +7.2 with Killer) If you want a more holistic argument, note that it is mechanically impossible for Guy to be doubled in-game, even by link arena foes with capped speed. Not too unreasonable to say capped-speed foes from other games can't double him either. Without doubles, Life Steal is back to its usual mediocre self.

(No question that with doubles Thief should win; this is not an attempt to change your vote.)

Quote
(for reference: the FE7 equal XP topic claims Silver Sword Guy has 20 damage to a 57 killpoint, or 16 KE damage, which would be a 48 damage crit I presume.  Thief has .96 physical durability and drains half his life back on a successful hit once Burgle & Bluff maxes, which will be fast thanks to the doubles.)

If Life Steal is breaking defence (i.e. using a bow), then Thief has 74% pdur due to no shield, so yeah a Guy crit does OHKO that.

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2014, 08:10:21 PM »
Okay yeah I forgot that Thief's durability is worse with the bow.  Still wouldn't change my vote due to the doubles.  Kinda surprised that Guy hustles it out even for you though;  Thief's speed is quite insane such that he's doubling basically speedcapped FE7 characters to me.

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2014, 09:04:46 PM »
This kind of 'guessing game' is not unique to Bravely Default and is the one of the reasons to convert TB to CTB. One of the points is to avoid the 'psychic' thing with TB systens. Do you allow Swordnaster to play such games woth the initiative counter moves? or any number of other such moves?

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2014, 09:40:59 PM »
Swordmaster having Know Thine Enemy makes it kinda moot, doesn't it? But yeah I would see her playing guessing games with the other moves, and also playing guessing games if she is unsure if the opponent is trying to attack vs. buff, say.

It's kind of unavoidable with any sort of initiative defensive stance in TB games, including their defend commands.

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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2014, 10:39:20 PM »
Yeah I'm going to call bullshit on Amon's HP being that low. 10000 HP is still solid in game on paper. The only reason it's not is hitting weakness as strongly as you do in game and IPs.

In all frankness, given how -you- factor in weakness-hitting against boss HP, I'm honestly surprised you don't see it -lower-. I certainly do factor in IPs for the Sinistrals anyway (you always start with 100% IP against them!), and I probably factor in that damage a bit more harshly anyway because L2 Sinistrals are already inflated as shit as it stands. And my average boss HP scale -already- slants the average boss HP towards below PC HP on average anyway, that ain't news.

EDIT: Sadly, you're actually right. The Sinistrals are the kind of duellers that make me wish I could actually double-credit weakness without feeling squicky.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 01:38:59 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Re: Proving Grounds m/h 2
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2014, 11:14:47 PM »
Know Thine Enemy is the guessing game for Swordmastee.

Consider CTB interp. If a foe sees SM in Know Thine Enemy they will tend to just not attack... standoff is defaulted to both attacking.

But apply the guessing game rules and SM can opt to insert some random attacking (that the foe wouldn't see coming) into the equation. This would tend to favor Swordmaster.

This makes an enormous difference for Swordmaster... though it still probably ain't so good!