Wheel of morality, turn turn turn! Nosy super questions on morality.

[superaielman]

1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

5. You accidently find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

6. You accidently bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

9.  An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

[Grefter]

1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

Change school.

2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

Not Guilty.

3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

Don't take survey.

4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

Apologise.

5. You accidentally find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

Coworker.

6. You accidentally bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

Leave note.  Contact details.

7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

Tell them not to lie.

8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

No.

9.  An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

If it is exposed?  They should be given a prize and charged for their crimes.

[superaielman]

1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

Tell the school to get bent and fight the suspension. Some bullies only respond to violence. This case would be especially bad, because the school did a poor job addressing the issue.


2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

Guilty. This is a pure rationalization coming from my education, but here goes. White collar cases are rarely prosecuted because of the power and money involved in those who do them. Even getting a case like that to trial is the exception to the rule. My standard of a reasonable doubt there is going to be lower there.

3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

I actually put this question in here I had something along these lines happen to me recently. I ended up not taking the survey. I probably would've given the person a moderately bad review though. I feel no need to lie for someone I know to be  a terrible person. I'm not above being spiteful, but there's something to living well and seeing a person a decade later doing menial work and being clearly miserable with life.


4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

Apologize. I saw this happen today. Some idiot darted behind a pepsi delivery truck while they were pulling out and nearly got killed, and then had the balls to call the guy an asshole afterward. It was pretty rude. I ended up talking to the driver briefly about it and told him he was right to be upset/the other guy was a twat.

5. You accidently find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

Report them most of the time. I have no tolerance for drug users, especially in a place where they can hurt others.If they were doing a job where being high didn't affect other employees or wasn't unsafe, I'd just ignore it.

6. You accidently bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

Leave. I would stay if there was some visible damage though.

7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

I accept the help. This is technically wrong but if I can do the job and the person's willing to cover, I'm going to take the help every time.

8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

Drive off. The fast food place is just going to throw it away, may as well get some use out of it.

9. An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

Imprisonment. I should've framed this as a sociolocial experiment ala Milgram's or Stanford, but I wanted to go for something with tangible benefits. Ethics guidelines for research are there for a reason. The doctors in this case would deserve a lot of praise for curing a very serious disease, but it doesn't lessen the seriousness of the breach of ethics done during their study.

[Grefter]

twat

That semester in England was worth it.

[SnowFire]

You're weird super.

1. Not enough information.  Failing that: If the bullying was non-physical, severe punishment for the child.  If the other side initiated physical conflict first or before, change school + somewhat less severe punishment for my child.  Resorting to physical force is basically never the answer and I've failed deeply as a parent if my kid is doing so, so I'd presumably deserve "punishment" as well.

2. Bring up friends during voir dire, get dismissed by the defense 100%.  As a member of the jury I wouldn't know whether any evidence was tossed or not.  If the remaining evidence is 'shaky' that implies that the defendent might not actually be guilty which would upend the premise of the question.  The verdict if I somehow wasn't dismissed would obviously depend on just how 'shaky' we're talking.

3. Hahaha taking surveys (except for voluntary Internet morality surveys).  Also I suspect that to really get said person in trouble would require seriously exaggerating.  Anyway the whole premise is wrong, if the person doesn't recognize me I'll cheerfully greet them and crow about my successful life and let them know to let bygones be bygones.  That's by far a better revenge then getting them fired - I won, you lost, and I'm successful enough to not even care about getting even.

4. Apologize, obviously.

5. Depends 100% on the job and which illegal drugs.  Severe illegal drugs = inform management only after contacting the police.  Illegal who-cares drugs = depends on the job.  (Certain professions like 'bus driver' get the contact management.)  Under no circumstances tell the coworker themselves. 

6. If there's no damage, do nothing.  No harm no foul.  Leave note if I think there's likely to be 'hidden' damage.

7. Tell them not to lie.  6 months is EZ though that'd never require lying - if you worked for 18 months and they want 2 years, you just write 2012-present or the like on the term, and not mention you started in Dec 2012.  (Okay it happens to be July right now which is the worst time for this kind of trick, but you get the point.)

8. No...  if your actual order is really in there, which it probably isn't, because it sounds like you got someone else's order.  That said this is the kinda thing that I personally would always notice & check for immediately, so mostly moot.  (Reasoning: Food isn't like some resources where you can return it with a clean conscience.  If the restaurant said "oh thanks for returning that order, let me go give it to the right person who is inexplicably still around" then someone needs to be fired.  They'll just offer to let you keep it anyway, or throw it out.)

9. This is an unbelievable situation, in the sense that it 'worked.'  There's a meme that unethical science is extra-effective because it's freed from those silly ethics complaints, but it isn't actually true.  Scientists who'd kidnap people and hide their work away from review are cutting corners elsewhere and are probably zealots who can't be trusted to interpret data fairly.  The work they produced is garbage and will have to be replicated the 'right' way while their court cases are proceeding, where 99.8% of the time we'll find out they were just crazy.

More seriously, I can't imagine getting consent and following the rules from Alkzheimer's bound patients would be that hard.  People at the end of their rope routinely sign off on dangerous studies & experiments, and having a next of kin to do so on their behalf would make the process easier, not harder.

[superaielman]

I should have used a social science example for 9. There are a lot of really unethical studies you can do that would benefit the field that are so hideously unethical that they'd never pass any kind of ethics board.

[Fenrir]

Going to be honest.
French bastard ITT


1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

Ask the kid whether he wants to stay at his school, and either defend the suspension or not depending on that. I'd fake being angry then have a serious intelligent talk with the kid about violence.
Secret high fives with the mother and/or friends.


2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

Well your question says he's guilty then asks whether I should find him guilty or not.
Assuming it's not 100% sure, quite honestly, in context, it would entirely depend on the evidence and what's used to dismiss it. Also probably whether the dude looks guilty TBH.


3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

No. I've forgotten about him at this point.


4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

This would never happen. But I'd apologize.


5. You accidently find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

It would entirely depend on whether I like the coworker. I'd totally rat out that incompetent racist coworker. I'd talk to the coworker if I cared about him/her (or had a crush on her). In any other case I'd probably would gossip and let someone else handle this shit.


6. You accidently bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

GTFO. Even if there's some damage. Yeah.
I'd feel a little guilty at least.


7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

Yes if I feel qualified.


8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

Hahah no way
My new roomate wasn't in good terms with her old roomate, who overpaid her 160 euros by mistake before leaving. I campaigned hard for keeping the money and spending it on cider.
I don't actually do active stealing, which is ridiculously easy to do with self-checkouts (which are everywhere now) at least if you're white and don't look like a thief.


9.  An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

It'd be a total disaster if the society forgave them.
I'd personally thank them though.

I'm pretty sure I'm actually still a fairly good person.

[AndrewRogue]

1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

5. You accidently find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

6. You accidently bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

9.  An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

1. Hate to wheedle, but depends entirely on the nature of the bullying and why the student ended up in the hospital. While I would definitely need to talk to the child about not doing that shit again (and possibly making sure they get some counciling for it), there are a lot of circumstantial factors as to how the actual reaction goes. If they were "just" being teased and beat the everloving shit out of them, that's a serious issue. If they were being physically harmed and lashed back, that's way more acceptable. Etc.

2. Shadow of a doubt. I think I'd have to bring myself to vote not guilty?

3. I don't bother with the survey, as per usual.

4. Apologize. Generally defuses situations I find. If it persists beyond that, I just bail.

5. As long as it isn't impacting the work or endangering my/someone else's welfare, I don't care. Not my business.

6. Just leave so long as it was a baby tap and I'm sure there's no damage.

7. Probably not. Too much chance of a wire getting crossed somewhere.

8. Nope! Food will just get thrown away if I return it, so there's literally no benefit for anyone to return it.

9. Tried under the legal system. That's what we have it for.

[Dhyerwolf]

1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

Assuming that the level of escalation made sense, I would fight the suspension.

2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

Guilty and would do my damndest to convince the rest of the jury. Needless to say, if you know it's him, even if you go for guilty and it's gets tossed up, that's still ending the same as not guilty.

3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

Don't do anything.

4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

Wouldn't happen/would apologize.

5. You accidently find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

Depends (on what drugs, what job and how much I hate the person. If I truly hate the person, I would tell management)

6. You accidently bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

I've done this and left a note before. That said, I'm not sure I would now!

7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

Yes. I mean, sure if there is some way I can fudge this so I don't need it that would be optimal (but also feels like the same core question. The key is whether you would lie and misdirection is still a lie).

8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

No

9.  An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

Charged.

[Grefter]

I'd talk to the coworker if I cared about him/her (or had a crush on her). In any other case I'd probably would gossip and let someone else handle this shit.

French as fuck.

1. Hate to wheedle

Caterpie bros 4 life.

[NotMiki]

1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

Hire a lawyer.

2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

I'm backseat driving the fuck out of this.  That's what they get for allowing a lawyer on the jury.  So if I think the evidence was thrown out for a good reason, I will refuse to consider it even if I believe it is trustworthy, but if I think the reason was bullshit, I'm absolutely considering it, and not telling anyone else I am so the result doesn't get thrown out.

3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

Nope.  If I have anything to say, I'll say it to their face.

4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

Nope.  Why would I cut off a delivery truck?  Who do you thing I am?  Super?

5. You accidently find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

Coworker yes, management no.

6. You accidently bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

If there's no visible damage I just leave.  It's hard to imagine running into a parked car, leaving no mark, and still having damaged it somehow.

7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

Yup.  Those types of requirements are just for weeding out resumes.  There's no substantive difference between, say, 2.5 years and 3, so the lie doesn't bother me.

8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

Nope. If I do the food's going in the trash anyway. It's possible telling them will make things better, but it's more likely telling them will get some wage slave in trouble with their manager.

9.  An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

Boot them out of the medical profession and prosecute.

[Meiousei]

1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

Back when I was doing student teaching, I had to deal with a student that was annoying others (at points bullying). What I did was split the two up and reported the incident. But if this occurred to my child, the first thing I would do is to get the full story from everyone. I would tell them that my child DID come to me about it. I would also question his classmates as well, to get the full story. Then I would take that information, share it with the teachers and the school, then promptly SUE them for the fact that my child was "scarred" by this bully to begin with. I would also look into finding a better school for my child, because clearly that school cares more for their reputation than trying to quell bullies and whatnot.

2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

Guilty. Throwing out any evidence, unless it was contaminated, is an obstruction of justice and that is wrong.

3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

I'm a very vengeful person. When someone pisses me off, I TEND to pay it back tenfold. However, I was also raised to be a good person. So in this case, I would fill out the survey, and not do anything bad on it. Yes, it's a sore spot, and yes, the person pissed me off. But, I'm going to just pray a bit for them, and move on, hoping their luck changes soon. While I am a bitter person, I'm not completely heartless.

4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

Normally I apologize. Nothing more to be said.

5. You accidently find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

This is one of those times I would not get involved. I was warned to not make small talk, so unless that coworker is someone I know completely, I'm not getting involved.

6. You accidently bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

I normally shrug it off and leave. Unless there is damage, I don't tend to stay.

7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

Yes. Because it shows that I made a good impression on my employer, which means that I can use that expertise to work extra hard at my dream job to not only prove my new employers that I was the right fit, but also that it means to them that my old employer didn't "lie".

8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

I just count my blessings I got extra food and keep going with my life.

9.  An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

This one clashes with me. On the one hand, it was wrong and they deserve to be punished. However, they also do not have any close family and they advanced the progress of science. The problem is the result could cause issues in the long run. The benefits outweigh the costs, so I'd actually say a light punishment should be done, but they should be allowed to continue their research.

[Lord Ephraim]

1. Do whatever it takes to avoid suspension.  I assume the child never really intended to hospitalized the bully.  There's repercussions for this action, but kicking she/he out of school is not the answer.

2.  If the lawyers are good enough, they could probably convince me enough to say at least not guilty.

3.  No, because customer surveys are utter shit.  Companies should actually put their own money into focus groups to improve their company.

4. Say I'm sorry?  Of course you get a case of road rage but you'll forget it the next day.

5. Normally, I wouldn't say anything.  They'll get what's coming to them.  Only if they piss me off a lot I would tip off my boss or their drug use is directly interfering with my or any other person's work.

6. If it's a parking lot with cameras, I would stay for the person or notify management of the biggest store around.  The last thing you want to do is leave and get a call later when the person you hit finds out you did it.

7. Absolutely.  You would almost sacrifice small kittens to land any job much less your dream job.  If your employer finds out the worst thing you can do is lose your job......which you wouldn't have got if not for a friendly lie.

8. They mess up your order against your favor way more than often.  I would take the freebee.

9.  Pay their standard salary.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

Violence is never the answer. Child gets punished, and I'm aghast at anyone who would reward them for this. A change of schools is probably in order too, since if my child is responding to bullying with violence then either the bullying is such a bad problem (which the school isn't addressing) that this is warranted, or my child is a little shithead. It'd depend on talking to the child and seeing if s/he wanted to stay though, and if so a serious talk with the school and bully's parents etc.

2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

If I had sole discretion on the verdict, I really don't know. In the scenario you laid out, though, it's irrelevant, because enough people will probably (quite fairly) think the person should be found not guilty, and I couldn't see myself trying to convince them without feeling like some sort of monster.

3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

Like hell I'd waste time on a survey for something like that. I'd probably mock his/her poor station in life to my friends because I'm a bad person, though.

4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

I don't do this. Apologise if it was an honest mistake. Let him/her go first if I realise it.

5. You accidently find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

I have little respect for our weird drug stigma so I'm certainly not telling the employer, unless I think somehow this is a threat to others at the workplace. e.g. If they're leaving needles around, or they take the drug at work and it impairs their judgement in some way, I'm warning them to knock that off or I'll tell the employer (or jut telling the employer right away if the danger is really serious). Another exception: I might tell the employer if it can be proven that I knew because I'm not endangering -my- job over this.

6. You accidently bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

Leave. Also leave if the damage is something stupid like a bumper scratch, because that's what bumpers are for and anyone who wants to pay money to repair that sure as hell isn't going to use mine to do it. I'd drop a note if I thought someone might have seen me (or I think there are cameras), or if the damage was actually substantial.

7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

If they offer then... probably? I'd never ask them for this help, though. I'd probably not try to draw attention to my shortage of work experience, and if asked about it on the interview I'd be honest because a lot of the time employers don't care about this nonsense anyway if you're good enough in other areas. (I have actually gotten a job I had less than the "required" work experience for.)

8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

See others. Returning the food does no good. Keep anything extra I actually want, return/leave/throw out the rest.

9.  An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

Take away their licenses / charge 'em, give credit to the first person who does the research in a fashion which is scientifically sound and replicable.

[NotMiki]

Guilty. Throwing out any evidence, unless it was contaminated, is an obstruction of justice and that is wrong.

There are basically two reasons evidence gets thrown out.  First is that it fails to conform to the rules of evidence that are in place to assure that the evidence is reliable.  These rules are way out of sync with reality, and result in more evidence getting thrown out than should be.  The second is that evidence is sometimes obtained in a way that violates a defendant's constitutional rights against unreasonable searches and seizures.  If a defendant's rights are violated, then the evidence is thrown out specifically to remove the incentive for police to violate defendants' rights (bust into a home without a warrant, for example).  There's an elaborate scheme of what actions do and do not violate a defendant's rights, and the scheme provides real limits but generally sides with police.  To me, it's worth considering evidence if it was thrown out for the first reason, and not worth considering it if it was thrown out for the second, even if it results in a guilty party going free.

[metroid composite]

1.

I'd want to talk to both  the principal and my kid, and then go from there.  The principal needs to understand the bullying situation.  The kid...the talk would go something like "I understand why you did it, I don't blame you, but we also need to try and avoid this situation in the future, or change things so that the end result isn't fatal injury.  Here are some ideas.  What method would you like to try?"

2.

Guilty

3.

I don't take the survey.

4.

Sure, I apologize, smile, do a bit of a ditzy blonde act, and apologize again.

5.

I probably tell management.  I have a pretty close to zero tolerance on drugs.  But it really depends; if the person is doing really good work on the project, or I'm good friends with them, I'd take a different approach.

6.

No visible damage to either car and I'm in a hurry?  I just leave.

7.

Nah.  At this point I've had plenty of "dream jobs", and know that it's a lot more important that I be able to do well when I get there.  If they honestly think after interviewing me that 6 fewer months is going to make me unable to do the job, then it's probably not a job I want to be in.

8.

If I catch it at the checkout, I'd probably let them know.  If I'm already in the parking lot...FFS it's just fast food.  Can they even take it back if you go up to the counter and say "Umm...you gave me more than I ordered."  Pretty sure there's sanitation guidelines that wouldn't let them take that food and give it to another customer after it has already been outside the building.  So...no, I'd probably just drive off.

9. 

They should get a bonus for a job well done?  Maybe get a Nobel Prize in Medicine?

[Cmdr_King]

1. Your child is bullied quite frequently at school and the school/teachers are unwilling or unable to address the problem. Eventually, your child beats one of the bullies quite badly, resulting in the bully being hospitalized and the school threatening a long suspension. How would you react?

Sink into a deep depression realizing the situation escalated to this point without my having previously intervened.  After that, regardless of discipline and the school in general, changing schools is a must: that's a hell of a thing for a kid to have to go back into afterwards.

2. You are on a federal jury, overseeing a white collar crime case. The defendant stole billions of dollars from pensions and siphoned off to his private accounts. You know people who were affected by this, though no one in your immediate family. The evidence presented by itself is however shaky, as the defendant's high priced lawyers got several key pieces of evidence tossed out.  Do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

H...ooonestly I feel like I'd have tried to get myself recused to start with, unless we're talking people I've met once and not like family friends or something.  Even without that I'm strongly in favor of much, much harsher penalties for white collar crime in general as part of a greater anti-capitalist bent so I don't feel like I could be fair as a juror to start with.

3. You get your first job. One of your coworkers is extremely unpleasant and rude and indirectly lead to your termination from that job. Years later, you run into this same coworker doing a menial customer service job. They do not seem to remember you, and provide okay service to you. The business provides a website for a customer survey after the fact. If you take the survey and give the cashier a bad review, they could get in serious trouble. Do you take the survey? If so, what do you put down?

I have a little trouble believing a coworker getting me canned...
But no I'd probably just skip out on the survey.  I'm not big on those to start with and it's something of a favor for clerks I see a lot and like if I do.

4. You cut off a delivery truck at a gas station. You go and get something from the gas station and head back to your car. The delivery person is still there and is upset. Do you say anything?

Honestly I feel like I'd either slink off in shame and hope nobody noticed me or offer to get the guy something.  Dunno which.

5. You accidently find out that one of your coworkers is using illegal drugs while at work. The person doesn't know that you know about the drug use. Management will require the person to take a drug test (Penalty of termination for failing it) if you tip them off about the drug use. Do you say anything to management? Your coworker?

Are we talking "using the drugs AT work" or just "I find out at work"?  Very different things.  The latter is, well, fuck it, who'm I to tell people how they get through their lives?  The former I'd probably just give them a general "dude what the fuck" and if it was obviously going on then yeah, probably tell (or rather, confirm to) management.

6. You accidently bump into another car while in a parking lot. There's no one around to witness the event, and there's no real visible damage to either car and you are in a hurry. How do you handle it? Do you wait for the person? Leave a note? Just leave?

The question implies I did at least look around and see if the other person was there, so... yeah, at that point just kinda bugger off.

7. You are unemployed and applying for a dream job, and get the interview. You are qualified for the job. The only issue is that you are short six months experience for the minimum requirement. Because you left the previous employer on good terms, they tell you that they'll lie and say you worked another year at the company than you did to help assure that you get the job. Do you accept this help?

I don't much care to lie to someone if they specifically ask, but like Snowfire said I'd probably just put the work experience down as "Year to Present" and figure if anyone actually gave a fuck then I probably don't want to work with them anyway.

8.You place a modestly large order at a fast food place which happens to be very busy. They screw up your order and give you far more food than you paid for. You don't find this out till you're pulling out of the parking lot. Do you return it?

At that point it's a lost cause, as everyone has said, so.. yeah.  Most I do is check and see if my original order is in there.  If it is then someone has to make more food regardless (and probably just grabbed one too many things from a warmer or whatever), if not then they might have some larger problem and letting them know could help.

9.  An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

In those cases that'd ... basically amount to kidnapping, unless there was someone giving consent from the homes or hospitals or what have you (which is worse).  And really it'd have to be treated as such, despite the gains.

[The Duck]

An experiment is ran by doctors. They take 1000 victims in the late stages of Alzheimer's and perform medical experiments on them, including brain surgery. This is done of victims with no close living family, so there is no one to give consent. The entire experiment is hidden away so there are no legal or ethical challenges to the experiment. This ends up leading to a cure that halts the progress of the disease, and opens up other treatment options for brain diseases. What should happen to those doctors?

My specialty isn't necessarily bioethics, but many of the same principles that go into conducting psychology/neuroscience experiments still apply in terms of the use of human subjects. This experiment as currently constructed simply cannot be run, particularly with something so invasive as brain surgery. If there are people at this late stage who do not have close family or any kind of decision making surrogate, that essentially eliminates them as a possible subject in an experiment like this, and it would not be difficult to find a sample of people whose surrogates would give consent. But, taking the example through, basically all journals would see this as a violation of the Declaration of Helsinki, and so any publication would be retracted. Further, this is enough justification to have medical licenses revoked and obviously there is a legal case to be made against the doctors for running around performing brain surgeries on people who can't legally give consent.

So this question of ethics with human experimentation was recently brought up by a facebook study that manipulated the content of users' newsfeeds. Essentially, facebook removed proportions of "positive" or "negative" statuses from certain users' feeds and it then tracked the positive/negative of future posts written by those users (this study has a lot of problems but that's not the main issue here). Facebook has a data use policy which informs you that they can use information they get from you to help with "troubleshooting, data analysis, research, and service improvement," which is what lets them show you targeted adds, it informs their algorithm as to which news items you see, and it acts as sort of a legal cover in case anything comes up.

The study itself was approved from an internal facebook review board, not a standard IRB, and that's where things get tricky. Facebook consulted two academics (authors on the paper) whose research must be approved by a university IRB, but there is some legalese suggesting that they are not directly involved in the research and didn't have anything to do with the consenting process. The paper did get published, so the assumption is that they followed standard practices with IRB and informed consent. However, that data use policy falls far short of counting as informed consent, and there was not any kind of debriefing process that told subjects about the existence or purpose of the manipulation. The fact that the study got published is a matter of some controversy because of this. Weirdly enough, if facebook didn't publish the finding in an academic journal (the first author is part of their data team), then this would just be a part of their marketing research and this wouldn't necessarily be a matter of research ethics (legally, anyway).

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/24/8788.full.pdf
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/everything-you-need-to-know-about-facebooks-manipulative-experiment/
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/06/everything-we-know-about-facebooks-secret-mood-manipulation-experiment/373648/

[superaielman]

Thanks for the breakdown on the FB case. That seems like a pretty clear breach of informed consent at the least and is generally a shitty thing to do.

Sink into a deep depression realizing the situation escalated to this point without my having previously intervened.  After that, regardless of discipline and the school in general, changing schools is a must: that's a hell of a thing for a kid to have to go back into afterwards.

Kids can hide bullying from parents so the first part doesn't seem reasonable. Being angry it got that far, yeah. As for the second- there's nothing like a reputation for violence to end bullying. I might change schools if I had the ability to do so there, but not because of that. Even a dumb kid would get the hint to not pick on a fellow classmate if said classmate had hospitalized the last person who  really went after him.

[Dark Holy Elf]

As for the second- there's nothing like a reputation for violence to end bullying. I might change schools if I had the ability to do so there, but not because of that. Even a dumb kid would get the hint to not pick on a fellow classmate if said classmate had hospitalized the last person who  really went after him.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. While you're not wrong — a reputation for violence will mean you are bullied less, sure — that same reputation also carries all sorts of other stigma which you absolutely don't want for your child. As a kid myself I certainly didn't want such a person as my friend, and as a parent I wouldn't want my children being friends with (or generally being around) this child who had shown the ability to snap and seriously injure someone... so basically this will be a big social black mark. And educationally... woof. As a teacher, I can assure you that any child with a reputation for violence is also one with a reputation for going nowhere in life... and while of course I'd like to say all teachers try to help out all students (even troubled ones), you really don't want to bias people against your child like that. Yes, the child might succeed (educationally and socially) anyway, but this reputation will make things notably harder.

Not to mention even if you go to a school culture where violence is somehow okay (whatever, the bully deserved to be hospitalised, I'm sure!) it is doing an awful job of preparing the child for life. You can't punch out your co-worker even if s/he's nasty to you; this will get you fired or worse.

[superaielman]

The right to self defense as a method of last resort (Which is what happened in the example with the school being unable or unwilling to address the concern) is something I have no problem with. You're right that a violent reptuation has downsides, but I would rather my child have that than to be walked over by bullies.  Almost nothing in an adult life will be as bad as a situation in school where serious bullying goes on, because the adult world (Both college and work) have standards and safeguards built into it.

[Fenrir]

Years of playing RPGs have taught me that violence is the only way to solve problems (and show that you have a true heart)

[SnowFire]

Brief comments:

TheDuck: The FB study antihype was bogus IMHO - well, it was *touching* on a real issue, but only incidentally.  Users have little control over their FB news feeds to begin with; there isn't a "show me everything in chronological order" mode, you can't say "always show posts from person X", etc.  This is a real problem, albeit one that is most solved by "don't use FB."  However, it's FB's right to do it, and if you are okay with the black box algorithm telling you what stories you probably want to see, how exactly do you have a right to complain when the algorithm is changed?  *Especially* temporarily.  A/B testing is done literally everywhere, most famously for Buzzfeed-esque "see which headline gets the most clicks", and that clearly isn't unethical...

super: Well, as I noted before in my answer on the bullying question, "more information needed" (I can certainly concoct scenarios where a violent response becomes more or less reasonable).  However, my fundamental point - which I think others made in a more pragmatic way - is that even if "Some bullies only respond to violence," and let's say this is such a bully, it is still wrong to attack them.  It is better to be bullied then to become an aggressor yourself.

[Grefter]

It is too late for that anyway.  The kid has already hospitalised someone.  They have the rep.  They have the stigma, fairly or unfairly.  Any school that it escalated that far whether by ignorance or negligence has failed.  That is an environment I would remove my kid from ASAP.  There is already a lot of damage just on my kids side emotionally I want to be able to address in a safe environment and that school clearly isn't providing one and I am not going to risk that on any idea that a rep for violence is going to resolve things and not alienate other kids and teachers.

I do certainly make sure they are able to keep contact with friends that they can, but I get them out of the immediate hostile environment.

Edit - oh yeah and Facebook thing.  I agree that FB's direct actions as an outcome of the study are socially acceptable Snowfire, that isn't the point.  The point is that any study they do and publish in professional articles still needs to be under the same scrutiny by ethics committees and subject to peer review just the same as any other article.  This isn't like this is the first big business to do a psychological study and publish a white paper on it.

[Hunter Sopko]

I feel the need to pop in for the bullying one, because I nearly lived that. I was bullied pretty constantly and mercilessly from 3rd grade to 8th grade. Mostly verbal, non-stop for that. In 6th and 7th there was a lot of physical bullying too. It got bad enough that I had to quit certain sports (luckily, hockey was my one out since barely anyone from school was on my team) and just had to be really, really careful in general.

At first I believed fighting back wasn't the answer, but that was crap. I walked away, made sure the adults knew. It never helped. It almost always made it worse. The responsible parties (or at least all of them) rarely got in trouble. I started fighting back in 7th grade. It didn't take long after that to make the physical part stop. I didn't always win, but I won more than I lost by picking my battles and people stopped seeing me as an easy target. I never put a kid in the hospital (though I was a very close to doing something very stupid once). Luckily Middle School is the last time you can fight and it won't affect your future. There were fights constantly in my school, but they never really reached beyond really stupid kid aggression level and people stopped before anyone was seriously hurt.

That at least stopped in high school, as Super noted there are safeguards when you're older. Basically there if there's any sort of fighting or physical confrontation, you more than likely would end up with the police involved. But the harassment and verbal bullying never stopped. And that's where, unfortunately, I developed my sense of humor. Although I was never really good at telling jokes anyway, it's never quite as much been a sense of humor as much as a defense mechanism. I had to learn how to defend myself verbally as well, and reverse nearly anything people tried to say to me into its own putdown. I overload on the references for a reason, because there's little chance of offending someone I didn't mean to. But when you do that for so long... well, it just becomes reflex. Problem is it doesn't stop being funny when you're not using it to defend yourself, it just makes you an asshole. So to those who I constantly do this to, sorry. I know most of the time that you know I'm joking, but I also know there are times when I go overboard. I'm still kind of dealing with this and I know in recent years I've only actually loosened the reins on it as it were. I tried to embrace it rather than fight it to see if it would affect change, but it just makes me feel worse since I can't really be satisfied with myself being, basically, an asshole.

I will grant you that fighting back doesn't work in all cases, and results will vary from person to person in how they develop as a person going forward. But I will still say that after a certain point, self defense as a last resort is a must. Emphasis both on self-defense AND last resort. Hopefully you have taught them well enough that they also know self-restraint and equal force. No one really did for me but at least I figured that out on my own before I started fighting back. And sure, you can call it morally wrong and I pretty much don't care. I'd rather not be right than have to put up with that shit again and feel powerless to stop it. And I'd rather my kid be wrong than not know his father has his back 100% in defending himself. Because the worst feeling, worse than any of the bullying, was having all this stuff happen to me and having one of my parents treat it like it didn't matter because of how I reacted to it. If the kid overreacts, if they go too far: you correct, you teach, you discipline. Hopefully you've done enough of this beforehand to encourage self-discipline. Don't let your kid let himself become a victim.