Author Topic: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.  (Read 1016 times)

superaielman

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PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« on: August 26, 2014, 09:40:31 PM »
Rahal- Shames Suikoden Knights everywhere. Sports an awful 'rune' and equally bad stats.
Cathe- Snowfire request. FE6's amazing thief.
Taloon- The wily merchant's combat skills are uh... not up to snuff. There's a reason he hires minions to fight for him in C3!

Rahal (S5) vs True Wetall (XG)
Rahal vs Zieg (LoD)
Rahal vs Gobi (BoF1)
Rahal vs Clive (RS)
Rahal vs Mustadio (FFT)
Rahal vs Axem Pink (SMRPG)
Rahal vs Olivia (FE13)
Rahal vs Lickitung (RBY)
Rahal vs Gogo (FF6)
Rahal vs Rufus (FF7)
Rahal vs Kogoro (S3)
Rahal vs Ramus (Lunar)

Cathe (FE6) vs True Wetall (XG)
Cathe vs Zieg (LoD)
Cathe vs Gobi (BoF1)
Cathe vs Clive (RS)
Cathe vs Mustadio (FFT)
Cathe vs Axem Pink (SMRPG)
Cathe vs Olivia (FE13)
Cathe vs Lickitung (RBY)
Cathe vs Gogo (FF6)
Cathe vs Rufus (FF7)
Cathe vs Kogoro (S3)
Cathe vs Ramus (Lunar)

Taloon (DQ4) vs True Wetall (XG)
Taloon vs Zieg (LoD)
Taloon vs Gobi (BoF1)
Taloon vs Clive (RS)
Taloon vs Mustadio (FFT)
Taloon vs Axem Pink (SMRPG)
Taloon vs Olivia (FE13)
Taloon vs Lickitung (RBY)
Taloon vs Gogo (FF6)
Taloon vs Rufus (FF7)
Taloon vs Kogoro (S3)
Taloon vs Ramus (Lunar)
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Random Consonant

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Re: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2014, 10:53:51 PM »
Rahal (S5) vs True Wetall (XG) - lol 11HKO that's gonna work great off of that durability frue weltall
Rahal vs Zieg (LoD) - Actually no Rahal eats a 4-3 to me, woops.
Rahal vs Gobi (BoF1) - Kneejerk.
Rahal vs Mustadio (FFT) - Kneejerk is that the speed split is enough.
Rahal vs Axem Pink (SMRPG) - um.
Rahal vs Olivia (FE13) - Rahal what are you doing.
Rahal vs Lickitung (RBY) - e: nvm untold clarity plot
Rahal vs Gogo (FF6) - uh sure
Rahal vs Rufus (FF7) - lolrufus
Rahal vs Kogoro (S3) - BUT FREEZE
Rahal vs Ramus (Lunar) - Right, that fractionally more physically durable than Lickitung thing

5-6.  You're doing great when you're getting outslugged by titans such as Olivia, Ramus, and ZIEG FELD.

Cathe (FE6) vs True Wetall (XG) - e: light brand
Cathe vs Zieg (LoD) - Welp.
Cathe vs Gobi (BoF1) - Surely.
Cathe vs Mustadio (FFT) - lolnope
Cathe vs Axem Pink (SMRPG) - Not even Cathe is bad enough to lose to OPB Petal Blast
Cathe vs Olivia (FE13) - Har.
Cathe vs Lickitung (RBY) - Gut.
Cathe vs Gogo (FF6) - Think so.
Cathe vs Rufus (FF7) - Wow this is depressingly close.  Kneejerk that Rufus needs too many shots though, I'm not sure I buy Rufus doubling, ATB respect plot.
Cathe vs Kogoro (S3) - Think Freeze actually works here though.
Cathe vs Ramus (Lunar) - e: right light brand exists, I keep forgetting that that's storebought in 6 and it 5HKOs Ramus.  She could miss with one of the five shots though?  Looking at numbers that has about a ~57% shot of happening, but Ramus is -1.14 SD so she sneaks in an extra attack there.  Fuck.

5-6.  I'm not sure what's sadder, Cathe vs. Rufus or that she's not notably more incompetent than Rahal here.

Taloon (DQ4) vs True Wetall (XG) - Think 4r pulls this off.  Taloon's glad Alena/Ragnar make the SDs so huge.
Taloon vs Zieg (LoD) - e: eh sure
Taloon vs Gobi (BoF1) - Think so.
Taloon vs Mustadio (FFT) - Aim Arm could tip this maybe? e: looks like it doesn't
Taloon vs Axem Pink (SMRPG) - No really, Axem Pink is free.
Taloon vs Olivia (FE13) - Nope.
Taloon vs Lickitung (RBY) - uh.
Taloon vs Gogo (FF6)
Taloon vs Rufus (FF7)
Taloon vs Kogoro (S3)
Taloon vs Ramus (Lunar) - Should 6HKO first.

10-1.  Good grief 4r Taloon just towers over this field.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 06:57:45 PM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

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Re: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 12:30:39 AM »
Rahal can spend a turn to almost get a 3HKO off awful speed and .87 PCHP, or he can start swinging away with his 4HKO-on-the-nose.  Amazing.

Rahal (S5) vs True Wetall (XG) - Outslugged.  Fail.
Rahal vs Zieg (LoD) - Burninated, if Rahal equips for Fire Res he loses a bit of defense and just gets eaten.  Am I missing something?  Been ages since I played LoD but Zieg seems to be a vanilla light - low 3HKO Fire magic or high 4HKO physical damage, ~1.2 PCHP durability or so.  Unless he was weak to water?!
Rahal vs Gobi (BoF1) vs Void - Oh god what is this darkness.  They each 4HKO the other.  They each have absurdly awful speed.  I think that going by standard deviations makes Rahal slower, while literally makes Gobi slower.
Rahal vs Clive (RS) - Clive heals .30 a turn.  "Buffed" Rahal is like .33 , but he's also insanely slow.  Even with my limits on how crazy turn-based speed can get as far as doubles, Clive will sloooooooooooooowly win this one.
Rahal vs Mustadio (FFT) - Turnsplit is ugly here.
Rahal vs Olivia (FE13) - gj
Rahal vs Lickitung (RBY) - Lickitung 5HKOs, Rahal 4HKOs.  And Rahal is probably faster for once!
Rahal vs Gogo (FF6) - I see Gogo as having the C/S/E/S skillsets and is a Heavy, but I'll vote skillsetless Gogo for Puny, of course.  Anyway...   uh, Gogo 4HKOs and is faster, so can Rahal 3HKO?
Rahal vs Rufus (FF7)
Rahal vs Kogoro (S3) - It's hard to lose to Kogoro.
Rahal vs Ramus (Lunar) - They each 5HKO or something, so who is slower?!  I probably include Nash in the averages which doesn't look good for Ramus, but Rahal probably still loses off Std Devs due to being a superslug in a huge cast.  Yuck, will await arguments.

Cathe (FE6) vs True Wetall (XG) - Super Guided Shot does its brutal work, I think. 
Cathe vs Zieg (LoD) - Burnt to a crisp.
Cathe vs Gobi (BoF1) Gobi 2HKOs but goes second & gets doubled & countered for 6 hits...  that should be fatal, although Cath's shaky accuracy might bite her, since 5 hits won't do the trick.  Hmm, .897^6 = 52% chance of all 6 hits connecting...  fine, she's got this.  Oh but wait, Gobi's weapon is a Trident, which is pretty much a spear...  so Weapon Triangle time!  Cath is tanked to 78.6% accuracy and worse damage.  She loses to Gobi!
Cathe vs Clive (RS) - Even chained Killing Edge crits won't break the healing, then her stuff will break.
Cathe vs Mustadio (FFT) - Range 2 & doubling, bad combo.
Cathe vs Olivia (FE13) - Doubling & evade.
Cathe vs Lickitung (RBY) - Cath gets to double!  How unusual.  Although I guess you can argue the def buffing makes Cath tink....
Cathe vs Gogo (FF6) - Gogo 2HKOs, but unlike Gobi isn't doubled, so only suffers 4 Cath attacks.  Probably that is acceptable.
Cathe vs Rufus (FF7) - See Mustadio, doubles ahoy.
Cathe vs Kogoro (S3) - Bad dog.
Cathe vs Ramus (Lunar) - Ramus only 3HKOs I think?

Taloon later after I can steal super votes.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 12:46:35 AM »
Zieg is 50% weak to Water/Ice.
...into the nightfall.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 01:06:39 AM »
Quote from: SnowFire
Rahal vs Zieg (LoD) - Burninated, if Rahal equips for Fire Res he loses a bit of defense and just gets eaten.  Am I missing something?  Been ages since I played LoD but Zieg seems to be a vanilla light - low 3HKO Fire magic or high 4HKO physical damage, ~1.2 PCHP durability or so.  Unless he was weak to water?!

1.2x PC HP? Mang, that's a lot of respect for his durability. 12k LoD HP at the very last dungeon is more like 0.6x PC HP to me.
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SnowFire

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Re: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2014, 04:52:52 AM »
Well, Elf claims the no-Divine Dragoon 3-turn average is 1217 -> 3650 damage from the party per round, 12k/3.65k = 3.28 turns, 3.28 / 2.5 = 1.31 PCHP.   I'm fine with kneejerking that as less due to failing it up to DL-illegal strats like "spam Dragoon magic and MP-restoration" but it isn't totally awful.  Although the ice weakness does not help against Rahal...  that fight ends up pretty close, Rahal probably 3HKOs (so effectively 4HKOs) and is slower, so yeah Zieg should easily 4HKO Rahal himself.  Gets more interesting if you see Rahal as 2HKOing post-water sword of course, although Zieg might yet still 3HKO.  Fail.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 05:17:53 AM »
One thing that is not factored into DL legal averages would be items. Attack items should help Miranda a little, and Psyche Bomb X is pretty crazy IIRC. Unfortunately, I stopped by boss topic after disk 2 so I don't remember exactly how crazy. I think Jo'ou also uses NEB's strategy of taking all bosses against 3.75 PCs (as such, against 3 PCs Zieg's HP would be more like 0.75 PC HP, so that at least explains some of the split).
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 05:33:15 AM »
Items, starting at full dragoon gauge, MP/SP restoration, accessories which improve damage a bunch... there are lots of reasons to use a higher average than the stat topic one.

Incidentally, does anyone have that FAQ/guide with complete enemy stats which circulated around the DL a while back? I can't seem to find my copy any more. For now I'm assuming Zieg is fairly averagish in ways not listed. EDIT: Thanks Random!


Rahal (S5) vs True Wetall (XG): Well.. the turnsplit makes this interesting. True Weltall has a 10HKO here, and first strike of course. Rahal has a 5HKO. How many turns does Grahf get before Rahal gets 5? Hmm... he has a 7:5, so with the first strike turn he gets... 8. Close, but not enough.
Rahal vs Zieg (LoD): Zieg has a 4HKO here, which... I think is enough. Two Rahal attacks aren't killing him, and he has a 4-3. Don't think Sword of Flowing helps. And yeah, my opinion of Zieg's HP is close to Snow's, but Rahal is THAT BAD.
Rahal vs Gobi (BoF1): Holy crap, Gobi outspeeds someone! Anyway, he 4HKOs... but Rahal 3HKOs. Man Gobi sucks.
Rahal vs Mustadio (FFT): Rahal has a 4HKO, Mustadio has a 7HKO. Mustadio doesn't have a 7-4, so he loses... mm. Unless, of course, he opts for an Arm Aim strategy, which... I normally don't respect too much, but it probably works here? If he tries for it only on turns that it will remove two Rahal turns, he can essentially trade two of his turns for two of Rahal's, which means Rahal needs 6 turns to win, and Mustadio needs 9, a turnsplit he DOES have. Rahal can block paralysis, but only at the cost of even more speed, to the point where I view the 7:4 happening. Wow.
Rahal vs Axem Pink (SMRPG): Nope.
Rahal vs Olivia (FE13): Uh yeah, Olivia gets to look like a swordmaster here as she chipper-shreds Rahal and avoids being 2HKOed.
Rahal vs Lickitung (RBY): Both 5HKO each other, but Rahal is faster! Except... wait, Lickitung uses Screech then 4HKOs.
Rahal vs Gogo (FF6): It's possible he misses the 4HKO, but I don't think so.
Rahal vs Rufus (FF7): Rufus is pretty similar to True Weltall (sigh), so think he loses this.
Rahal vs Kogoro (S3): Rahal has a 2HKO here, while Kogoro has a 9HKO. FREEZE though, and of course the turnsplit. I... don't think Kogoro can pull this off though. Oh wait Rahal can block paralysis anyway, and he doesn't mind making the turnsplit even worse with that 2HKO.
Rahal vs Ramus (Lunar): They both 5HKO each other, but my kneejerk is that Ramus is faster... only so slow you can when compared to just three other PCs.

Cathe (FE6) vs True Wetall (XG): Cathe 3HKOs with a Light Brand even before considering any (weak) melee counters, True Weltall will need more than four attacks to win himself... although it's close.
Cathe vs Zieg (LoD): Zieg has a 2HKO with MT magic, that should be enough.
Cathe vs Gobi (BoF1): Gobi 2HKOs, Cathe 4HKOs.
Cathe vs Mustadio (FFT): Mustadio has longbow range to me, so no counters and he 4HKOs. And doubles if Cathe has a Light Btand out, not that he needs to since she doesn't 3HKO him or even close.
Cathe vs Axem Pink (SMRPG): Isn't OHKOed by Petal Blast, uses physicals.
Cathe vs Olivia (FE13): Olivia doubles... Cathe should go first. Still, Olivia kills in two turns before the counter kicks in so uh yeah this isn't close.
Cathe vs Lickitung (RBY): Cathe 5HKOs... does she double? ... yes she does, good lord Lickitung you suck. Lickitung also just misses a 2HKO, so yeah Cathe is going to take this.
Cathe vs Gogo (FF6): 2HKOs.
Cathe vs Rufus (FF7): Kneejerk Rufus doubling Light Brand Cathe, and I'd let him attack from either range probably. So.. think she goes with Silver. But that gets her outslugged. She can go with a Light Brand as a finisher, but it's still not enough. Close certainly.
Cathe vs Kogoro (S3): Kogoro doubles Light Brand Cathe, similar to Rufus. But whatever, he's melee anyway, stick with Silver. Cathe... 3HKOs Kogoro to boot. Still, he has turn 2 freeze aginst her, and a 4HKO. So... Kogoro, Cathe counter, Cathe, Kogoro (freeze), Kogoro (Cathe still recovering), Kogoro. -Amazing-.
Cathe vs Ramus (Lunar): I'm assuming Cathe doesn't double, although it's possible she does. Uh... Ramus having a bow is really bad news since he rams into Light Brand's nasty counters. And he just misses a 2HKO, which would probably let him take this.

Trying to switch to DQ4r generally since no AI shenanigans. For my own reference... Taloon is 90% speed, 15% damage, 120% HP, 128% pdur.

Taloon (DQ4) vs True Wetall (XG): Taloon 8HKOs, True Weltall... 13HKOs at best, and he has at most one doubleturn plus first strike.
Taloon vs Zieg (LoD): Don't think Zieg is 112.5% speed myself, and Taloon... kills in either 4 or 5, while Zieg kills in 5. ... I guess that "4 or 5" part matters a lot, then, doesn't it. Mmm Zieg apparently has below average pdur, think that tilts it.
Taloon vs Gobi (BoF1): Gobi 5HKOs, Taloon also 5HKOs, and is faster.
Taloon vs Mustadio (FFT): Taloon 7HKOs, Mustadio borderline 9-10HKOs. Don't think Mustadio has a 9-7. Mustadio can do that trade he did with Rahal and try for a 11-9 instead... which he might have, but again he might miss the 9HKO anyway. So think Taloon barely takes this.
Taloon vs Axem Pink (SMRPG): Nope.
Taloon vs Olivia (FE13): Taloon 4HKOs, but triggers counters, and each Olivia attack or counter also 4HKOs. Hell, she doesn't need counters for this. Olivia too strong.
Taloon vs Lickitung (RBY): Well both 7HKO each other. Okay, with Screech, Lickitung has an effective 5HKO. But yeah that speed difference, I see Taloon pulling this one out as Lickitung hits the TB floor to me (62.5% being what I currently use).
Taloon vs Gogo (FF6): Taloon is faster, and 5HKOs while Gogo 6HKOs. Gogo has some evade but I don't think it will kick in twice in six shots. Could be argued.
Taloon vs Rufus (FF7): Taloon slugging respectable enough.
Taloon vs Kogoro (S3): Taloon 3HKOs but of course is slower and fears stun some... okay, a lot. Yeah, he needs 12 hits to win, but "44% chance to remove two turns" adds up really fast especially with a natural double in there. Each Kogoro attack nulls about 0.69 Taloon attacks on average, Taloon thus needs to get around 8 turns before I'd see him winning. Which... I think he'll get. Close fight.
Taloon vs Ramus (Lunar): Both 7HKO each other, Taloon does it faster.

Taloon meets my definition for Puny, i.e. he loses a slugfest to someone who has half average damage and is purely average otherwise, and has no other tricks. But he only barely loses such a slugfest (basically, they 7HKO him first), and most of this field is more clearly Puny, and several of his wins (Zieg, Mustadio, Gogo, Kogoro) were extremely close. Still, uh yeah, funny to see him dominate like this, and he is the best of the three challengers I'm pretty certain.

Taloon 10-1 (merchant power!)
Rahal 5-6
Cathe 4-7
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 04:57:53 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 09:06:06 PM »
Okay, numbercrunching sez Rahal's about 0.85 pdur and 0.68 mdur (...) on his default, averaging 25% damage with his physical off 67.2% average speed (......). Wow, that's a winning package.

Rahal (S5) vs True Weltall (XG) - Weltall 9HKOs and borderline 3-2s off the bat, not counting the initiative turn. Rahal... 4HKOs. Yeah, I think Weltall just doesn't have the turnsplit needed here to make this work.
Rahal vs Zieg Feld (LoD) - Zieg 4HKOs, Rahal 3HKOs... but Zieg 4-3s. God, you suck so much, Rahal.
Rahal vs Gobi (BoF1) - See NEB.
Rahal vs Mustadio Bunanza (FFT) - Yeah, suppose Arm Aim off -that- turnsplit ends up working.
Rahal vs Axem Pink (SMRPG) - AXEM PINK
Rahal vs Olivia (FE13) - Holy crap, Olivia gets to emulate a Swordmaster against Rahal and chippershreds him before his second turn.
Rahal vs Lickitung (RBY) - The math works out on NEB's end again.
Rahal vs Gogo (FF6) - Jesus.
Rahal vs Rufus Shinra (FF7) - This ends up oddly similar to Rahal vs. True Weltall. Rufus is a lot faster and has more base damage than TW, but hits the wrong (...) defense and has around half the effective pdur. Working out, this kinda ain't.
Rahal vs Kogoro (S3) - Rahal, making the Suikoden Yaoi Knights proud by claiming victory over a -dog-.
Rahal vs Ramus (Lunar) - Pathetically, Ramus just has slightly better stats.

5-6. It's all about speed. I mean, the offense/durability combo is bad enough as is, but 67% average speed just slaps Rahal definitively into Puny territory.

Rest later.

Cath (FE6) vs True Weltall (XG) - LIGHTBRAND COUNTERS FTW
Cath vs Zieg Feld (LoD) - Zieg 2HKOs with MT magic and that's hard to recover from.
Cath vs Gobi (BoF1) - Stop giving 2HKO damage to Punies, Cath.
Cath vs Mustadio Bunanza (FFT) - I'm not sure Lightbrand counters would really let her win even if she didn't get doubled.
Cath vs Axem Pink (SMRPG) - I'm not sure much of anything loses to Axem Pink.
Cath vs Olivia (FE13) - Olivia is a freaking terror in this pool.
Cath vs Lickitung (RBY) - CATHE DOUBLING SOMETHING. Lickitung, you horrible failure.
Cath vs Gogo (FF6) - You're kidding me.
Cath vs Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Rufus just doubles no strings attached to me. Welp.
Cath vs Kogoro (S3) - Thank you, Elfboy.
Cath vs Ramus (Lunar) - Man.

I'm not going to touch Taloon due to DQ4o. The randomness just gives me a headache and we don't have precise notes on the odds of each option and urgh.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 04:58:19 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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VySaika

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Re: PG Puny: Presented entirely without comment or hope.
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 10:02:13 PM »
Rahal (S5) vs True Wetall (XG) - I don't remember True Weltall enough to vote.
Rahal vs Zieg (LoD) - But, but, WATER WEAKNESS!?!?!?!?
Rahal vs Gobi (BoF1) - Gobi's flooding the arena will not save him here, Rahal knows how to fight in the water.
Rahal vs Clive (RS) - Infinite shitty healing does in fact save Clive here.
Rahal vs Mustadio (FFT) - Sure.
Rahal vs Axem Pink (SMRPG) - Uh, sure.
Rahal vs Olivia (FE13) - lol
Rahal vs Lickitung (RBY) - I want to say Supersonic might win this, seriously.
Rahal vs Gogo (FF6) - Gogo isnt' a puny to me, not voting.
Rahal vs Rufus (FF7) - uh...sure.
Rahal vs Kogoro (S3) - Rahal can get para immunity, eh? So it goes.
Rahal vs Ramus (Lunar) - IIRC, RAmus is at least competent at being a sack of HP when you have him. Which is more than Rahal's got.

Cathe (FE6) vs True Wetall (XG)
Cathe vs Zieg (LoD)
Cathe vs Gobi (BoF1)
Cathe vs Clive (RS)
Cathe vs Mustadio (FFT)
Cathe vs Axem Pink (SMRPG) - Hey super can you not put someone with literally only one shot of ability to attack at all into these pools? That'd be great.
Cathe vs Olivia (FE13)
 Cathe vs Lickitung (RBY) - Defense curl until Cathe tinks. Call it a day EDIT: Light brand is storebought. And shitty ITD damage but ITD nonetheless. God DAMN.
Cathe vs Gogo (FF6)
Cathe vs Rufus (FF7) - I...sure. What support credit I give I'll kneejerk for Rufus. SURE.
Cathe vs Kogoro (S3) - Uh....yeah, probably.
Cathe vs Ramus (Lunar)

Taloon (DQ4) vs True Wetall (XG)
Taloon vs Zieg (LoD)
Taloon vs Gobi (BoF1)
Taloon vs Clive (RS) - Infinite healing? Sure.
Taloon vs Mustadio (FFT)
Taloon vs Axem Pink (SMRPG)
Taloon vs Olivia (FE13)
Taloon vs Lickitung (RBY) - Sure.
Taloon vs Gogo (FF6)
Taloon vs Rufus (FF7)
Taloon vs Kogoro (S3)
Taloon vs Ramus (Lunar)- They're basically the same person, Taloon slightly less fail? Yeesh.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 10:12:30 PM by Gatewalker »
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