Would anyone be interested in a DL writing group?

[AndrewRogue]

Yep. Everyone does some writing, everyone workshops, maybe we do some skyping and stuff. All that sort of stuff. Just excuses to write and get your writing read.

[Excal]

Hmm, I have been trying to get back into writing.  Something like this would be good for me.

[Ranmilia]

Registering interest.

[AndrewRogue]

I figure the general idea would be set a weekly meeting, exchange X words worth of writing, do the general perusal/commentary on it, then discuss it at the meetings. Not fully sure how well that'd work, so I'll look at some general suggestions on what more casual writing groups do!

[Excal]

Possibly set up a dropbox where we can keep the writing, and then set aside some time each week in order to discuss the writings of the group?

[AndrewRogue]

Prolly. I favor GDocs over Dropbox, but that prolly works too.

[Cotigo]

I too am interested in this. I think GDocs works better, too, but hey I have both so.

[VySaika]

I'd be willing to give it a try at least. Though ask anyone I've tried to do a weekly game with how good I am at being reliable for any given thing every week. (Hint: the answer is not at all).

I have dropbox and could learn Gdocs I guess.

[Laggy]

GDocs is pretty tailor made for this (on the spot real-time editing, ability to leave comments and create subversions with edits, etc.)

[AndrewRogue]

So it looks like this is about it for interest.

1. Andrew
2. Alex
3. Excal
4. Zenny
5. Gate
6. Ash?

So we should prolly talk a bit about form. I was thinking long form (novel, in other words) and trying to work with something like a submission (~1 chapter or so, 3000-5000 words?) every two weeks. Ideally it might be best if we had actual meetings every week to split up how much we need to discuss every meeting. I think Skype would be an ideal format as it is much easier and more efficient to speak.

Thoughts?

[Excal]

I actually like the skype idea.  Though, I may be limited if I can't find my headset.

[Ranmilia]

Kinda meh on skype, I assume we'll have IRC in addition though because why wouldn't we.  Also my sleep schedule is crazy (crazy AWESOME).  But yeah sure.

[Lady Door]

So do we have a day in mind for this? IIRC, everyone sucks at being around at the same time on the same days...

For the record, I can't do Mondays and, shortly, Thursdays. And it would almost always have to be after 7pm PDT during the week because work. I might be able to swing a work lunch time if it's necessary.

[Fudozukushi]

Collaborate for NaNo, it'd be hilarious.

[Ranmilia]

I can't honestly commit to any particular time weekly, especially for skype, and recommend people not worry about me that much when it comes to scheduling.  I can say reliably that I will NOT be available Wednesday nights, and enough Sunday nights to make that less than ideal, if it matters.

[Cotigo]

I can't honestly commit to any particular time weekly, especially for skype, and recommend people not worry about me that much when it comes to scheduling.

For my part I intend to read people's stories then type up constructive criticism and mail it to everyone involved. Being on the other side of the world it is simply not practical for me to expect to get into any of the skype convos. I have a hard enough time getting one person on the same schedule as me to skype unless they're night owls to begin with.

[Cotigo]

OK. It has come to my attention that with as difficult as it is to have us all even be AWAKE at the same time much less have all of us be off of work, with no other social obligations, and have us all be at home with internet connectivity, no computer problems, no pets demanding affection, and no other distractions to devote the *2+ hours necessary to devote to a real-time discussion... that the idea as it stands is from a logistics perspective wholly unreasonable and just a little bit dumb.

*Alex, Andrew, Ashley, Excal, Gatewalker, me, (Fudo??, Laggy??)... 6 (8??)... twenty minutes a workshop (minimum, if we want to have any constructive criticism and ideas arise from any of this)... yeah, 2 hours a session easily, unless we rotated stories workshopped. I don't know about you, but a large part of my interest in this is to kick me in the pants to write something, ANYTHING, and give me frequent deadlines, so that doesn't really work.

So, to put it short, we got problems.

My instinctual solution to this problem was, as I mentioned in my previous post, to write up my own critique of each individual story and mail it out to everybody. We could all do that, but that would be very dumb for very different reasons. For one, a lot of the e-mails could be pretty repetitive if they held the same criticisms. But, more importantly, they lack the reason why in-person workshops are much more effective: discussion. From discussion between the story's audience can arise new ideas that no one person who read the story could have come up with on their own, and these new ideas are often much more fruitful for the author than any individual's opinion could ever be without having them bounce off of each other.

But, guys. GUYS. GUYS!! There is a solution. What medium combines the ability to have people with disparate schedules submit their opinions AND the ability for audience members to have a discussion and bounce ideas off of each other?

Hint:

You're posting on it.

I propose that for the writer's group, we create a new subforum on the RPGDL. Basically, a new writer's forum. We all have a deadline to submit a work of writing to everybody else in the writer's circle. We all have some time to read one another's writing, and then discuss it on the new forum. This combines the advantages of real time discussion with the flexibility of the e-mail into something we can actually use to facilitate this program.

There is more that I would like to address, in particular setting some ground rules for how we discuss each other's stories, especially with the forum format I just proposed. That said, for now I think we should just address the way we handle this, and see if anyone else has a better idea than what I have just suggested.

[Excal]

Hmm.  While I do like the Skype idea, voice to voice is very effective, it is impractical.  As such, I like the idea of the forum as primary method with perhaps an informal Skype session set up every now and then which, if you can make it, great.  But if you can't, then no loss because the forums are still there.

[Ranmilia]

There is more that I would like to address, in particular setting some ground rules for how we discuss each other's stories, especially with the forum format I just proposed. That said, for now I think we should just address the way we handle this, and see if anyone else has a better idea than what I have just suggested.

Now that I am slightly more sane:  you're right, Japan has infiltrated your bloodstream.

But yeah forum format sounds good, presumably some IRC action as well and Skype sessions for people who want them and can make it.  Seems like a no brainer honestly and I'm curious what else you have in mind.

[Cotigo]

There is more that I would like to address, in particular setting some ground rules for how we discuss each other's stories, especially with the forum format I just proposed. That said, for now I think we should just address the way we handle this, and see if anyone else has a better idea than what I have just suggested.

Now that I am slightly more sane:  you're right, Japan has infiltrated your bloodstream.

Japan and being an abrasive cunt making me err on the side of overly democratic rather than being demanding.

Nothing I am going to say about rules is going to be particularly shocking for anyone who has done workshops before, blah blah blah talk about the story not about who wrote it, don't be dismissive of genre, talk about what can be done to help the story reach its goals and not necessarily how the story can better fit a different mould than the one it is trying to fill, blur blur. The one thing I do want people to nom on is that I think with each submission deadline, you *have* to comment on *every story submitted* or get kicked out or face some more reasonable penalty, just so that everyone who submits is ensured to get some feedback. I'll do a more thorough post when it is not 2AM about creating an actual list of ground rules later but really that's the only idea that I think is only half-formed and not blatantly obvious.

[AndrewRogue]

Sorry, been a little bit lax.

Generally agree with Zenny. Voice chat just isn't going to work, and forums allow for a decent sense of permanence and response in your own time, both of which are quite handy. Plus some people here are just more comfortable with text communication. Only downside is we may not be able to use this forum (it has some secrets apparently) but I'm looking into a solution for that one.

Zenny's pretty dead-on with the workshop rules as well. The only one I would generally add would be the standard "No defending yourself" clause. You can ask questions and ask for clarifications, but you need to steer away from commenting on your commentary.

[Lady Door]

I think we can adopt fairly standard writing workshop ground rules, as Zenny suggests:

• Do not be prescriptive.
• Be courteous.
• Critique the story, not the writer, not the subject matter, not the genre.
• Don’t try to rewrite the story.
• Avoid line editing.
• Be specific. Avoid “This works.” Say what works.

I agree with deadlines and group requirements. These things only work if everyone participates, and everyone participates regularly. You don't get to submit a story for workshopping and then fail to workshop anyone else's story. It is fine not to have a lot to say but you will never have nothing to say.

Suggested format:

• Everyone will submit something of X* words every Y weeks.
• Workshops will last up to 1 week, with 2-3 stories at a time, to give everyone sufficient time to compile constructive feedback and authors don't have to wait forever to get their story workshopped.
• A new topic will be created for every submission, not every author. (It'll help keep commentary clean and easy to find.)
• An author will not comment on a topic until the end of the week in which his story is being workshopped.
• Provide marked-up copies of the workshopped story with your feedback.^
• A single story or chapter can only go through the workshop 4 times maximum.

* How long do we want each piece we have to read to be? How frequently should we be able to give feedback? For people writing longer works, long delays between feedback can stall progress, which would be counterproductive.

^ I recommend a Google doc since it's a format readable from any browser. That said, I'd recommend workshoppers provide an individual copy of a Google doc rather than one with common edits. The author will keep the same main doc, however, for all subsequent submissions.

Questions

• Do we want everyone to be working in the same format? E.g., everyone is workshopping pieces of a longer work? Or should we allow people to write in any format (short story, essay, novel, etc.)?
• What can we do to prevent someone from skipping out on participation? I dislike the idea of removing them from the group entirely as sort of a zero tolerance rule, but maybe we could have a strikes system that erases over time. For example, someone who missed submitting their story gets 1 strike. 3 strikes and you're ejected. However, for every time you successfully participate in a workshop or submission, you erase half or one-third of a strike.
• How many people do we want participating at a time? Do we want to invite people to join every cycle (e.g., after everyone participating has gotten a critique in a round) if there's interest? I recommend asking people who want to leave to wait until a full round is completed.

[Excal]

Getting a board shouldn't be too hard.  I remember having to make a board for something else I was involved in about a year and a half ago and aside from making the place look fancy, it was super easy.  And I'm guessing that for what we want, just the default skin should be enough.

General thoughts, what Lady Door and Zenny said sound pretty good.  I like the idea of a three strikes system where you can erase them at a third of a strike per round.  And as a novice, I don't have strong opinions on length of pieces to be workshopped.  Though, perhaps we can start with a trial length, and after one round of workshopping, see if we want to revisit that length.

[Cotigo]

just skimming, more thorough stuff later

I don't think necessarily a minimum word count is necessary. Some stories work fine as 3 page flash fiction, others don't. Less nobly and more honestly a minimum word count would stress me out and make me disinclined to write due to worrying about it more than I already should.

I don't think forcing everyone to have the same format is necessary either. If someone really wants to submit poetry (don't think any of us write that?) or creative nonfiction that should be allowed.

I do think we should set the maximum word count at about 3000-5000 words or so, perhaps allowing flexibility in that arena if someone has submitted something

Agreed with author not commenting until the end of the week, though I think some commentary during submission about whether it is a first draft, revised draft, etc, plus whether it is meant to be fantasy/fairy tale/mystery/realist/nonfiction and *NOTHING ELSE PAST THAT* is fine.

I think everyone should participate in the commentating (of course being allowed to opt out if real life is too busy... not every time, though, and if you opt out you're not allowed to submit for a couple rounds?) while 2-3 of us have our stories workshopped in cycles.

All ideas are just off the top of my head right now. Will mull it over more.

[Lady Door]

I don't see the point in a minimum, either. What you submit is up to you, and if you're behind and don't have enough words, well, that means you get less read and given feedback on.

I'm fine with multiple formats, too, just want to be explicit about it. To your point about introducing the work, I agree; mention what kind of thing it is, how many times you've written/rewritten it (especially as we keep going and multiple drafts cycle through the rounds), bring on the workshop.

<5k is what I said before I changed it to "X" so I'm plenty good with that limit.

What do you mean about 2-3 of us having things workshopped in cycles? 2-3 for every week and then a second round after we've gone through everyone?