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Author Topic: Thoughts on gamergate  (Read 30183 times)

metroid composite

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2014, 04:49:16 PM »
Yeah, for some reason God of War doesn't get criticized much.  Like...Jack Thompson never went after God of War, even though it came out during the height of Jack Thompsonism.

Fenrir

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2014, 04:54:39 PM »
With Sarkeesian's latest videos, I've only heard people having issues with her argument against Hitman (several times)
People focus on the Hitman example a lot but that's not seeing the forest for the trees? I don't doubt that the Hitman example is flawed, but she shows so many exemples that the fact that one or two might not work doesn't really matter.

God of War 3 is actually shown in her latest video and it is probably the most fucked up example. Here: http://youtu.be/5i_RPr9DwMA?t=21m30s


Edit: I changed my forum title
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 05:02:41 PM by Fenrir »

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2014, 06:46:50 PM »
Holy fucking shit.
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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2014, 06:50:16 PM »
To me as a game developer, Sarkeesian is mostly valuable for pointing out "hey, this has been done before, a lot."  Game development is a young enough medium that you can fall into a trap of thinking "well, this is really risquee, but I'm not sure it's been done before, and exploring new topics is something games should try."  I have been legitimately surprised at several points watching Sarkeesian's videos of "Oh, wow, there's actually 10 games that have already done this?"


In other news, while it's rare, every once in a while I actually see something legitimately about journalistic ethics get produced by gamergate, like...this:

http://i.imgur.com/bodjZfR.png

Burried under about a dozen anti-feminism posts, granted, but I found it!

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2014, 07:28:51 PM »
Yeah...  regarding the whole Hitman thing, the folks who dislike Sarkeesian seem to be jumping on it because they feel they can show it to be demonstrably, provably wrong.  And then the argument goes that because she's wrong about that one point, she is clearly lying and that every point is then suspicious at best, and probably a lie at worst.  And why shouldn't you assume the worst?

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2014, 07:47:27 PM »
God of War is interesting because, sorta like Bayonetta, there actually is a valid narrative reason for the game to be like it is; Kratos is a fairly accurate depiction of an actual Greek Hero.  THat is, in the Greek sense of the word, a man who was so powerful he could do whatever the fuck he wanted, and would only be thwarted if he failed to honor the Gods in his Hubris.  More than that we actually see that this already happened to him, and the Gods are giving him a sort of ending to his story.  Be our agent to end the Hubris of Ares himself, and earn redemption in our eyes. 

Much like pretty much everything about the original God of War, thanks to the latent misogyny and worship of machismo in our own culture everyone missed the fucking point, so subsequent games more or less lack this aspect.  Kratos IS a god now, and has become worse than ever he was, and basically becomes a modern-style villain protagonist rather than a Greek-style hero.  Basically, he's supposed to be awesome in the original sense, inspiring awe and fear, but instead was perceived as awesome in the modern sense.  A morality tale becomes a model of behavior, turning something that should be just a little bit uncomfortable into a huge red warning flag about how bad things actually are.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2014, 11:45:19 PM »
A quick ramble on the subject of Bayonetta...

I understand why many feminists are offended by it, and I also understand why other feminists enjoy the game with an asterisk. But to me, a person who grew up in a very conservative, very anti female sexuality culture, I feel like Bayonetta is very... liberating in that sense. If you've spent your entire life hearing that "sex is bad, you should only have sex with your husband and maybe shouldn't enjoy it and if you feel sexual urges you are disgusting and should feel bad", then a risque but independent superheroine all of a sudden sounds really appealing. Part of the charm to me that she is sexual AND badass, and that those things aren't mutually exclusive (whereas in conservative culture, if you have sex or are erotic then you are nasty and damaged).

In her previous post, LD said "Is it enough to paste boobs onto a blank canvas that could be either and call it good? Is it enough to have a female protag at all, regardless of how she's portrayed? Do women need to look "more like men" to be acceptable?". The answer to me is that you should have a wide variety of female protagonists. A few I can think of from games I've seen/played relatively recently... Bayonetta goes for the over the top sexy style while being badass, FF13 Lightning is closer to the just pure badass spectrum (but could be written as male with some changes, I guess), Lara Croft (in the most recent Tomb Raider) is more of a down to earth girl who kind of starts out as just doin' what she has to do and ends up being pretty competent, and Serah, the FF13-2 protag, is a bit of a lighter-hearted character and has a bit more of a classic female design, but the game respects her enough not to make her a damsel and she handle situations competently. None of these characters are that similar to each other, but they are all written in ways that make them seem respected by the game.

And to answer the second question, I don't think a game is necessarily feminist if it has a female protagonist, but I think it's probably more likely to be. :)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 11:49:59 PM by Luther Lansfeld »
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Meeplelard

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2014, 01:39:59 AM »
Looking at God of War 3 video, holy crap that takes things to a new level.

As I've ranted in the past, from the "Kratos is a horrible person" perspective, God of War 1 it wasn't so bad.  Now make no mistake; I'm not backpedaling on the female point.  What I am saying, however, is that Kratos in GoW1 was, despite being a horrible person, was clearly the lesser of two evils, so you wanted him to win because the alternative was worse.  It makes him all the easier to stomach when the game well establishes the opponent is clearly way lower on the moral spectrum than your hero, even if your hero is on par with many villains.  On top of that, Kratos had personal beef with Ares, who stabbed him in the back in such a cruel, horrible , unforgivable way, you do feel Kratos is justified in metaphorically returning the favor. 

God of War 2, it's kind of all lost at this point.  The villain has shifted from Ares, to Zeus.  As I said, Ares they made it very clear was awful, but Zeus?  They really failed here.  The game opens by stating "Kratos, you're going TOO FAR, if you don't stop, we WILL have to intervene and you will won't like that."  So you can't even use the "Kratos didn't know and the gods pulled a fast one!" argument, he was warned ahead of time, and basically ignored them.  Honestly, an accurate analogy for GoW2's plot is effectively a parent punishing their child for breaking the rules and the child being angry that they were punished despite knowing exactly WHY they were punished, and deciding the parents must suffer.  Insert "Greek Gods" into the mix and you have an accurate portrayal. 

The fact that God of War games got only worse on female portrayal says more.  It sounds like Aphrodite is the only God he doesn't kill, so HE SPARED A FEMALE!?  Also sounds like he had sex with her, which ok, it is Aphrodite so totally in character, but that sounds more like a safety net excuse than actually justifiable instance.  Sex works if it's handled properly; if you want a way to show how intimate two characters are in a way that shows how close they really are, and the "Romantic Kiss" just isn't enough, then sure!  Just don't play it up as "hurr durr sex cool right?"  Kratos screwing a woman because "she's hot and seductive!" is not that.


I think something worth noting is the evolution of Fighting Game female representation.  If nothing else, look at Street Fighter:

SF2's Chun-li stood out specifically because she was female; she became the most well known character in the franchise after Ryu and maybe Ken for that reason alone.  Likewise, Cammy was a big deal when SSF2 hit because "A second female character!"  The roster by then was 16 characters large, 1/8th of the roster was female.

Jump ahead of USF4, and there's a lot more females.  It's still predominantly male, but on top of Chun-li and Cammy, we have C. Viper, Juri, Poison (...please keep the tranny arguments out of this...), Elena, Makoto, Ibuki, Sakura, Rose and Decapre.  That's 1/4th of the roster, so double the amount percentage wise.  Is it ideal? Hell no, but the shear number of females to pick from and the male to female ratio being cut from 7:1 to 3:1 is a big deal in itself.  Also these characters do have variable designs, ranging from Chun-li who dresses like an actual female warrior, to C. Viper's secret agent "with rocket boots and electric gloves" to Juri's "evil fanservice" outfit, there's a good range of designs to appeal to females.  Again, it could be better, I don't deny this!

Then I look at a game like Mortal Kombat 9, and what do I see?

It has 31 characters, two of whom are guest characters granted (Kratos and Freddy Kreuger), so they were pre-established.  Otherwise?

We have 7 females if my count is right out of that total, a little less than Street Fighter's ratio to be fair, but the difference? 

We have 4 Female Ninjas who look like this but in different colors, a member of special forces, an monstrous 6 armed freak of nature who I am willing to give a pass to because she's too ugly to be sexy, and I think that was intentional since "Goro's Wife" or something.  And then we have Sindel who...just speaks for herself.


Not only are the designs less varied, I don't think the combined amount of clothing on all 7 women equals that of what most of the Street Fighter females wear.  It says something when Cammy and Juri dress more modestly than every single female in your game.


Basically, what I am getting is I don't think "shear number of females" is enough, but you also need variety.  Every single MK9 female clearly was made to be half-naked fanservice, and the fact that 4 of them have very similar designs further suggests "HOT WOMAN! PLAY AS THEM BECAUSE HOT!"  When I look at Street Fighter, only a handful seem questionable, and at least their outfits look some degree of practical; I can't say the same for like any of the MK9 females, and more importantly, every single female (...sans Decapre, but that's intentional) is visually very different.  It shows "yes, there are various ways females can dress and look!  They don't need to be Ninjas to be capable fighters!"  ...yes I know Ibuki is a Ninja, but that's ONE female out of 11.

When you think about it, this is why Smash 4 getting so many female newcomers was actually a big deal really.  Brawl had 6.5 characters if we include transformations (functionally different characters), and Jigglypuff, with Nana being the "0.5' because you don't actually play as her, but she's still a female.  Smash 4 practically doubled the number of potential playable females if we include Miis and situations like Wendy Koopa.   I know someone tried to argue once that "female versions of male characters don't count" but my counter point is that the raw number of potential playable females is more important than the proportions.  Even if Robin defaults to Male, the fact that you can play as the female version still adds another character of that gender to the roster that you can choose to use instead.  Considering the game could have just had only the male version in for simplicity sake and dedicated 4 more color schemes, them putting that extra effort, voice acting, etc. to put Fem!Robin in just shows a nice gesture.


I know this wasn't really brought up, but just thought I'd start a quick analysis of Fighting Game female representation in modern times.  I didn't even realize just how bad a game like MK9 was in this regard until I saw all the females; I knew the Ninjas were bad, but forgot there were 4 of them and that's over half the female representation in that game.

Considering who made it, it feels like the only reason Injustice wasn't filled with girls running around in bikinis was because these characters had pre-established designs in their comics, and they wanted to at least be somewhat accurate to that.

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metroid composite

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2014, 08:57:10 AM »
So...one positive thing that is coming out of all of this is that there is attention being drawn to online harassment, and what can be done about it.  This story gets pretty intense, but was worth a read:

http://randi.io/wp/archives/86

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2014, 07:29:29 PM »
Can't Nana be the Ice Climbers lead with one of the alt colors?

Meeplelard

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2014, 11:20:13 PM »
Nana and Popo have subtle differences in facial expressions and that never changes regardless of color; you're always considered playing as Popo regardless I believe anyway.

That said, if Ice Climbers had returned in Smash 4, I would not be shocked if half the alts did swap the two characters, because Smash 4 liked to things like that.  THEN AGAIN, they didn't give us a Ms. Pac-Man alt for Pac-Man even though it was probably a very easy thing to do, so who knows.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
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[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

AndrewRogue

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2014, 04:40:08 AM »
On Gamergate and why they suck:

Quote
The long and short of it, for me, is I'm finding both "pro-GG" and "anti-GG" sentiments increasingly frustrating. Both sides are so polarized that it is pretty much impossible to actually discuss anything because everyone is too busy shouting "stupid SJW's" and "stupid misogynists."

I really dislike just equating the two sides here. I don't think it's at all fair to say that both sides are "equally bad" or whatever. Hell, just look at the labels both throw at each other, and assume that they have some truth to them (and they do). The Gamergate crowd is guilty of misogyny. The anti-Gamergate crowd is guilty of... caring about social justice? The fact that anyone can say that as if it is an insult is kinda mindblowing. "Fuck you for caring about the downtrodden of society." I think that right there says very much about how vile the Gamergate crowd by and large is. I get that it has some good people in it, but the movement's standardbearers are... not making a good name for themselves.

I mean, I don't agree with every criticism that gets thrown at a game in the name of sexism or racism, but I applaud anyone's right to bring such things up, and think such discussions are worth having. The way the average Gamergater seems to rage against the discussions themselves (and insults others for caring about such things) smacks of insecurity.

Your mileage may vary on that. I've witnessed plenty of racist and sexist material from the Anti-GG crowd, in addition to a frequent and strong desire to not want discussion, but instead desire that game/artist/writer be silenced for daring to act in a way that runs counter to their perception of just. It is a different issue, yes, but it also deserves to be smacked down.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2014, 04:49:39 AM »
Oh, so the GGers actually did manage to call forth actual, original flavor, shut-the-fuck-up-check-your-privilege-I-am-right-you-are-racist SJW among all their crying?  I never really ran across any, but I can't be surprised either I suppose.

That said, it's still such a false dichotomy that feeding into the GG delusion that they somehow are being persecuted is too damaging to address that issue, at least in the larger GG discussion.  Their behavior is sufficiently abhorrent that backing them is always going to get someone hurt unfortunately.
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metroid composite

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2014, 06:39:41 AM »

Excal

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2014, 11:12:13 PM »
So, in today's news of the absurd, Jack Thompson has entered the field.  In support of Gamergate.  The story is, he's done an interview with the guys who are doing this "documentary" on Sarkeesian and he's supposedly their big trump card with tons of connections in the biz.

Now that the story has been leaked and the big boogeyman that they've been comparing Sarkeesian too is officially on their side, you'd hope this would lead to some horror or self-reflection.  Nope.  They're celebrating.  The guy that pretty much all of gaming banded together to say "This guy is bad and needs to be stopped" is batting for their side and they think this is a good thing.

Of course, don't just take my word for it.   Read for yourself.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2014, 11:23:47 PM »
Why will my palm not detach from my face?
When humanity stands strong and people reach out for each other...
There’s no need for gods.

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2014, 12:48:34 AM »
did you have another glue accident while doing origami?
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metroid composite

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2014, 05:57:08 AM »
Yeah...from the perspective of someone in the industry, honestly GamerGate and Jack Thompson felt similar.  Someone outside the industry who doesn't like it.  It's also not that different from former statements of some of their most prominent supporters like Milo Yiannopoulos:

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/27/virgin-killer-was-not-a-misogynist-but-a-madman

Quote
So ignore the shoddy, opportunistic posturing from feminists about Rodger’s crimes. It’s the blurring of fantasy and reality in today’s video game-obsessed young men that’s the real enemy. If there’s a cultural milieu that contributed to the creation of Elliot Rodger, it was that of nihilistic video games, not the myth of patriarchal oppression.

And that's far from the only anti-gamer thing Milo has said:

https://twitter.com/Nero/status/304385532367106048
https://twitter.com/Nero/status/304398843435446272

But he apologized or something, so the gamergate crowd is cool with him now.


---


But back to Jack Thompson!  The archived pro-Jack Thompson tweets are strangely theraputic to read:

https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-supports-jack-thompson
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 06:39:29 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2014, 06:44:38 AM »
Jack Thompson, eh? Celebrating, eh? Really. #NotRealGamersGate

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2014, 03:11:07 PM »
On Gamergate and why they suck:

Quote
The long and short of it, for me, is I'm finding both "pro-GG" and "anti-GG" sentiments increasingly frustrating. Both sides are so polarized that it is pretty much impossible to actually discuss anything because everyone is too busy shouting "stupid SJW's" and "stupid misogynists."

I really dislike just equating the two sides here. I don't think it's at all fair to say that both sides are "equally bad" or whatever. Hell, just look at the labels both throw at each other, and assume that they have some truth to them (and they do). The Gamergate crowd is guilty of misogyny. The anti-Gamergate crowd is guilty of... caring about social justice? The fact that anyone can say that as if it is an insult is kinda mindblowing. "Fuck you for caring about the downtrodden of society." I think that right there says very much about how vile the Gamergate crowd by and large is. I get that it has some good people in it, but the movement's standardbearers are... not making a good name for themselves.

I mean, I don't agree with every criticism that gets thrown at a game in the name of sexism or racism, but I applaud anyone's right to bring such things up, and think such discussions are worth having. The way the average Gamergater seems to rage against the discussions themselves (and insults others for caring about such things) smacks of insecurity.

Your mileage may vary on that. I've witnessed plenty of racist and sexist material from the Anti-GG crowd, in addition to a frequent and strong desire to not want discussion, but instead desire that game/artist/writer be silenced for daring to act in a way that runs counter to their perception of just. It is a different issue, yes, but it also deserves to be smacked down.

Oh look, I now have something to say about gamergate. Fuck you, Andy. Fuck you six ways from Sunday.

I'm gonna have to call bullshit on that and ask for some proof on that "I've witnessed plenty of racist and sexist material from the Anti-GG crowd." I won't challenge the part where they refused to open up discussion, because I wouldn't be surprised if people didn't want to open up communication channels with a bunch of manbabies throwing a temper tantrum and harassing every woman that pops up on their radar. Granted, most of what I've seen of gamergate has filtered in through Reddit, which is filled with crying manchildren to begin with, but I haven't seen near the level of outright misogyny coming from the anti-GG crowd as I have seen from the pro-GG crowd.  Case in point:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/23/felicia-days-public-details-online-gamergate

Felicia Day posts an anecdote about how she encountered someone wearing a video game T-shirt after gamergate hit the news, and for once instead of seeing it as a sign of comradery and a signal to be at ease around people with similar interests saw it as a reason to be on full guard around those people.

Chris Kluwe goes full Zenny on the gamergate crowd and calls them a bunch of paint-huffing shitgoblins.

Guess who gets doxxed.

Yeah, gamergate and anti-gamergate are totally equivalent sides in this. Fuck that, and fuck you. Gamergate isn't about ethics in game journalism and never has been. Hell, they actively went against Jim Sterling, someone who built a fucking youtube career talking about the unethical shit that goes on in the AAA games industry, their relation to distributors, and other incredibly bad-for-the-consumer trends currently going on in the industry, and has even decided to start a patreon account so he can continue doing what he does without the taint of corporate sponsorship when he refused to cotton to their game. What this guy is doing now fucking EMBODIES what the Gamergate crowd supposedly wants but because of the rampant harassment almost inherently entwined with Gamergate, both he and gamergate are now on different sides of the debate.

Gamergate is not about ethics in game journalism and the manbabies behind it don't fucking want open discourse. This movement is just co-opting something that sounds nice and reasonable to cover up the vitriol and, let's face it, utter bullshit that they actually champion and act on.

EDIT: Also, really, for fucks sakes. The gamergate hashtag crowd flock murderwhateverthefuck started over an incident when an Indie developer*, may have used personal connections to leverage positive reviews for her game*.  And not even one of those steam greenlight indie games that were quickly cobbled together in 3 hours using borrowed assets in an attempt to make a few bucks for as long as they could get away with banning negative criticism on their steam review page**. Yes, totally a way to build legitimacy in the movement. Attack the indie developers. Not the triple A fuckoffs making deals with distributors for exclusive DLC in a shameless attempt to drive up pre-orders for games that may not even work right. Or who make very detailed, very specific, contracts with youtubers to let them preview the game if and only if they give it a positive review. Nope guys let's stage the battlegrounds with the depressionquest girl. The one who tried to make a CYOA story about depression. And maybe she had sex with someone while she was the property of another dude. Yes. Let's do that.

*oh wow things you should already know
**seriously you should watch Jimquisition it is some good shit
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 03:28:31 PM by Makkotah »

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2014, 03:57:01 PM »
But bro, real gamers don't play indie shit.  All this coverage of indie games must be proof of corruption.
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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2014, 08:11:02 PM »
EDIT: Nevermind. I'm gonna step back from this one. GG discussions in general just annoy me.

Short story is: I don't like either tribe and I think they are both problematic for different reasons. People like Jim Sterling and Erik Kain are the real heroes. Take that as you will.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 08:18:39 PM by AndrewRogue »

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2014, 09:44:37 PM »
Not only do I pretty much agree with everything Zenny said, he brought up things I didn't even know about that only further cements my agreement.  Didn't even know they went after Jim Sterling, and as you said, everything he says is exactly what they're allegedly fighting for.  That alone proves how bullshit their stance is.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
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[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Cotigo

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2014, 10:23:14 PM »
Let's be clear, by "went after" i mean they blew up his twitter or something for being an Esss Jay Doubleyou or some shit. They didn't doxx him or anything. I mean, he still has a penis. That would be uncouth.

Lady Door

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Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2014, 11:48:02 PM »
Interesting article.

Quote
You're going to say "but the people I was piling on/freaking out about/boycotting are totally distinguishable from the people being victimized now by piling on/freaking out/boycotting." How nice for you. Explain that distinction to them and let me know how it works out.

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But too many critics of #GamerGate seem to view it as a fine opportunity to demean both groups and individuals based on attributes like weight, appearance, social isolation, and non-neurotypical status. People (including, occasionally, me) employ "fat, smelly, basement-dwelling Aspie neckbeard" rhetoric to talk about misogyny or harassment in gaming.

...

I'm sure you can construct an excellent argument about how demeaning language against women occurs in a historical context and in connection with a power structure and patriarchal vertices and thus-and-such, and that it is simply different than making fun of people for being fat or unattractive or autistic. That's swell. It would get you a solid A- in your sophomore seminar at Brown. But most of the real world thinks it is an unconvincing rationalization.
(emphasis mine)

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... it's always good to exercise skepticism about how your anger about an issue is being monetized or weaponized by others.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 11:53:59 PM by Lady Door »
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