Author Topic: Thoughts on gamergate  (Read 30214 times)

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #175 on: January 09, 2015, 04:55:39 AM »
Why does this stuff only happen because "I have two daughters"? Why not want it because, you know, women are people too? Why does it take until it's personal to see that there's little reason not to lift everyone up and even less to put them down just because they're different? :|

Because people aren't that good.  They can become better and this is a super common way for it.  Just like people becoming less racist/homophobic/Ableist when they interact with someone of another background/sexuality/disability, when they have a daughter they are more open to seeing how other women are treated and want better for them in their future.

That said holy fuck what that says about their relationship with their girls mother prior to this is not great.

If you want news, Ghazi is still pretty fun for it without getting TOO wrapped up in it (but still overly much so).  It is worth a browse when you have a few minutes and want to see crazy shit like Chris Kluwe being sent an anonymous dildo, signing it and putting it up for sale on charity.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4381
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #176 on: January 09, 2015, 04:47:50 PM »
I mean...I love Ghazi and all that, but given that LD seems to want neutral, non-rhetoricalized discussion, Ghazi is not it.  Ghazi is a comedy board, people mimic rhetoric for comedic effect in like...80% of posts.

If you want something more neutral you can try AGG:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/

Which...was at some point intended as a neutral discussion ground (and people will tag their username with [pro-GG] [anti-GG] and [Neutral].  But it has a reputation for being much more swarmed by the pro-GG camp.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 05:03:29 PM by metroid composite »

Lady Door

  • Coming up with words is, like...
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1998
  • ... really hard.
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #177 on: January 09, 2015, 05:44:21 PM »
That said holy fuck what that says about their relationship with their girls mother prior to this is not great.

That's what I'm getting at, ultimately. His daughters are not the only females he's ever met. They're not the only ones that matter to him. They've also been around a while. Why now? Why them? (And I'm not picking on him -- "I have a daughter, man!" has come up for everything from sex trafficking to equality in the workplace.)

I mean...I love Ghazi and all that, but given that LD seems to want neutral, non-rhetoricalized discussion, Ghazi is not it.  Ghazi is a comedy board, people mimic rhetoric for comedic effect in like...80% of posts.

If you want something more neutral you can try AGG:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/

Which...was at some point intended as a neutral discussion ground (and people will tag their username with [pro-GG] [anti-GG] and [Neutral].  But it has a reputation for being much more swarmed by the pro-GG camp.

My drive for neutral is in formulating arguments about the movement as a whole. I see value in reading the biased stuff as well, and I do it for politics, it's just not the best breeding grounds for general analysis.

People trying to be neutral when they're obviously not is even funnier.
<Demedais> Humans look like cars to me.
<AndrewRogue> That must be confusing in parking lots

The Duck

  • Social Justice Duck
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 623
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #178 on: January 09, 2015, 06:07:03 PM »
It's disheartening but simple. People suck at empathy and having theory of mind until it becomes personal.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #179 on: January 09, 2015, 11:10:06 PM »
I guess I just don't see much point in being neutral at this point if you want to follow it and not participate?  Not with the last few months of following it anyway.  Ghazi is a pretty good portal for a drama binge.  Againstgamergate is more for discussion, so if you want to see the day to day defence/attack on each other's arguments it works
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5583
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #180 on: January 10, 2015, 01:20:31 AM »
While GG itself is indefensible, in the first days they tried to play it legit they hid behind some valid criticisms of the industry, and the feeling of being used by them felt by a lot of the less vile GGers was genuine.  Being a literal marketing person for a major publisher I'm assuming LD wants to see those issues addressed by her peers.  Which is good, but should disconnect it from the larger toxicity of GG beford getting into it y'know?
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #181 on: January 11, 2015, 07:58:45 AM »
That said holy fuck what that says about their relationship with their girls mother prior to this is not great.

That's what I'm getting at, ultimately. His daughters are not the only females he's ever met. They're not the only ones that matter to him. They've also been around a while. Why now? Why them? (And I'm not picking on him -- "I have a daughter, man!" has come up for everything from sex trafficking to equality in the workplace.)

I think part of it is as a persuasive tool. Perhaps he really -does- just care about women's rights in general? Perhaps he's just an amazing person who is completely unselfishly altruistic and wants to implement change?

But people are kind of inherently mistrustful of wholly altruistic people. Better to cite some kind of personal, semi-selfish, relatable reason.

Whether that applies to this guy specifically or not, I don't know. But it doesn't matter because if you hear this rhetoric all the time, then it's likely to be the case for at least some of them.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4381
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #182 on: January 11, 2015, 12:41:20 PM »
There have literally been studies done finding that fathers of daughters in the House and Senate tended to have their political views shift slightly left.  For fuck's sake, Dick Cheny supported gay marriage because he has a Lesbian daughter.  Dick Cheny.

But this is a slight political shift, not a huge one.  Dick Cheny did not pledge 300 million towards diversity initiatives in tech.

The Duck

  • Social Justice Duck
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 623
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #183 on: January 13, 2015, 12:53:06 AM »
https://twitter.com/srhbutts/status/554793461229297664

8chan has been taken down because of CP. Ethics, people.

Excal

  • Chibi Terror That Flaps in the Night
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2603
  • Let's Get Adorable
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #184 on: January 13, 2015, 05:01:44 PM »
Sadness.  It did not last, and the domain has been handed back.

Also, in addition, opponents of Gamergate have been getting SWATted.  So yeah, there's been some attempted murder by cop going on recently.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 05:12:20 PM by Excal »

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Excal

  • Chibi Terror That Flaps in the Night
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2603
  • Let's Get Adorable
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #186 on: January 14, 2015, 02:11:02 AM »
Let's add in a third SWATing.  This one in Vancouver.

Shale

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5800
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #187 on: January 14, 2015, 03:14:58 AM »
Quote
Ashley Lynch, 40, owner of a film and television post-production studio, said she was home alone when two police officers knocked on her door just after midnight on Jan. 11 and asked if she had any weapons in the house.

The part where their attempt to provoke a violent altercation was foiled by the fact that Canadian police are still Canadian is just wonderful.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 12:30:27 PM by Shale »
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
-Ponder Stibbons

[23:02] <Veryslightlymad> CK dreams about me starring in porno?
[23:02] <CmdrKing> Pretty sure.

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #188 on: January 14, 2015, 03:36:04 PM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/13/former-highest-ranking-u-s-cardinal-blames-feminized-church-for-the-catholic-churchs-problems/

Blatant sexism: it isn't just for nerrrrrds anymore.

I love how he blames sexual abuse by priests on radical feminism.  Dude, Vatican 2 was in 1962.  Tom Lehrer recorded "My Hometown" in 1954.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 03:48:08 PM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4381
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #189 on: January 15, 2015, 02:17:12 PM »
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/hotline-miami-2-banned-in-australia-update/1100-6424654/

Indie game Hotline Miami gets banned in Australia.

As a game developer, I straight up don't like seeing games outright banned; Australia used to do this regularly, but was supposed to not do it anymore given the new 18+ rating.  (And I want to say pretty much everyone involved in the industry is against outright government censorship like this).

(gamergate is frothing at the mouth, meanwhile; I'm sure they're going to try and contact the classification board, but when their responses include "FUCK EVERYTHING JESUS FUCK I'M MAD", it's probably going to muddy discourse with the rating board).

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #190 on: January 15, 2015, 03:13:39 PM »
An R rating is not free license to publish anything under the sun.  It still has to pass a certain degree of acceptability (like Rapelay isn't going to get an X rating even if we had THAT like we do for films).

It was never going to unilaterally allow you to publish anything down here.  Also note, it is a ban on Sale of it down here.  No one is going to be arrested for owning or playing it.

That said it actually 100% is a censorship issue for once so that is a thing.

It also shits me because it is pretty inconsistent application compared historic to films.  I know I watch Mad Max 2 when I was an adult and that sure as shit has a straight up rape scene in the R version and that was rated 30 years ago now.  Deliverance is a thing that has existed for even longer and is chilling a these years later.  I feel like the medium is being treated differently than others unfairly.  If it was an interactive sequence I would have more sympathy, but as usual, I don't have a great deal for the Classification board.  They are consistently ultra conservative with games where they give a much wider berth in more mature mediums.

Edit - it likely would have had a better chance of passing if it wasn't the protagonist that did it. 

Edit 2 - http://www.devolverdigital.com/blog/view/hotline-miami-2-australian-classification

More context!  From the dev!  It isn't actual rape, it is simulation of rape in a film within the game.  With no thrusting.  So yeah, regular day on the job for the classification board.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 04:21:05 PM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4381
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #191 on: January 15, 2015, 04:22:31 PM »

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #192 on: January 15, 2015, 07:13:39 PM »
About a year ago one of the developers gave an illuminating interview on the subject of the portrayal of sexual assault in the game.  It's worth a read.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/05/hotline-miami-devs-reconsidering-sexual-assault-scene/#more-167569
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Cotigo

  • Jerkface
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4176
  • Yoo-hoo, Mr. Tentacle Guy...
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #193 on: January 15, 2015, 10:38:47 PM »
oh wow

dat comment section

Fenrir

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2397
  • Social Justice Archer
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #194 on: January 15, 2015, 11:12:52 PM »
In any case something should not be banned because it is seen as gross / tasteless but only if it portrays bad behavior in a positive light / exploits people.

That said, GG always answers "We only talk about JOURNALISM lol" when attacked for not talking about the most major problems in the videogame industry. So I guess they should not talk about that because there's no journalism involved here.


NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #195 on: January 15, 2015, 11:40:55 PM »
oh wow

dat comment section

doin it wrong

In any case something should not be banned because it is seen as gross / tasteless but only if it portrays bad behavior in a positive light / exploits people.

who gets to police the line between tastelessness and bad behavior?  If the answer to that question is anyone other than NotMiki, Whose Opinion Is The One True Measure Of Objective Value, then you have a problem.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Fenrir

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2397
  • Social Justice Archer
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #196 on: January 16, 2015, 07:36:59 AM »
Obviously it is

The Duck

  • Social Justice Duck
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 623
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #197 on: January 16, 2015, 01:12:53 PM »
In any case something should not be banned because it is seen as gross / tasteless but only if it portrays bad behavior in a positive light / exploits people.

That said, GG always answers "We only talk about JOURNALISM lol" when attacked for not talking about the most major problems in the videogame industry. So I guess they should not talk about that because there's no journalism involved here.
Some GGers have expanded from journalism to boycotting "SJW games" from "SJW developers" (anyone who has a smidgen of social consciousness?) or basically anyone with a kickstarter who they perceive as misappropriating funds (Tim Schaffer for example). So it's more generally about ethics now!

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #198 on: January 16, 2015, 02:45:40 PM »
Tim Schafer is also "SJW" as fuck.  There is many reasons he is super sexy other than his rugged good looks.

who gets to police the line between tastelessness and bad behavior?  If the answer to that question is anyone other than NotMiki, Whose Opinion Is The One True Measure Of Objective Value, then you have a problem.

Well in this case it is a government appointed board and you deal with whatever they say because we don't actually have anything like a constitutional right to free speech.  If the board says you can't sell it, you can't sell it and a whole bunch of the reasons that something can be rated the way they are (or refused classification) is based on that board's interpretation of what is socially acceptable.

Specifically from here
RC  (Refused Classification - Like Hotline Miami has been)
Computer games that:
(a) depict, express or otherwise deal with matters of sex, drug misuse or addiction, crime, cruelty, violence or revolting or abhorrent phenomena in such a way that they offend against the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults to the extent that they should not be classified; or
(b) describe or depict in a way that is likely to cause offence to a reasonable adult, a person who is, or appears to be, a child under 18 (whether the person is engaged in sexual activity or not); or
(c)  promote, incite or instruct in matters of crime or violence


And when you drill down on to the specifics of what is acceptable in R18+

The content is high in impact

R 18+ material is restricted to adults. Such material may contain classifiable elements such as sex scenes and drug use that are high in impact. Some material classified R18+ may be offensive to sections of the adult community. A person may be asked for proof of their age before purchasing, hiring or viewing R18+ films and computer games at a retail store or cinema.



Also of note is the glossary definition of "reasonable adult"

Is possessing common sense and an open mind, and able to balance personal opinion with generally accepted community standards.


But, even when the broader community disagrees with the board you don't have a way of really defending it, because it is the board that determines what the community standards are.  When you refuse classification the community is also hindered from making a judgement on its own, because they cannot legally acquire it.

Also note that there is still yet another rating over R18+ that is available for films but not games.  For years the "community standard" dictated that Films could be that much more explicitly targeted towards adults rather than children.  Even still an outright pornographic game is technically going to be illegal.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Cotigo

  • Jerkface
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4176
  • Yoo-hoo, Mr. Tentacle Guy...
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on gamergate
« Reply #199 on: January 17, 2015, 03:48:31 AM »
Sounds very similar to the way movies are rated here. I recall watching a short documentary about the South Park guys trying to get their movie approved by the MPAA and it sounds really dang similar. No accountability, no real vetting process for who gets on the board, and the board's word is the LAAAAAAAAW.

Tangentially, I may have said this before but SJW is literally the best Shibboleth ever. If anyone says it seriously you are 100% guaranteed that some really super-shitty opinions are coming up.