Author Topic: What Games are you playing 2015?  (Read 229980 times)

Tide

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #625 on: March 19, 2015, 12:36:55 AM »
Be fair. Everything in TOPSP is farmable with Chariot. In-fact the game's entire crafting system is like centred on this. Secondining Grefter on its bullship. TOPSP's entire crafting system is a mess. Drops aren't guaranteed and only some enemies on some maps will drop the specific crafting item, even though there is no indication about this. This means you can be fighting the same map multiple times with similar enemy types and never see the drop. It's a giant clusterfuck.
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Fenrir

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #626 on: March 19, 2015, 12:37:49 AM »
Wait that is worse than the battle against Aloser in C2 in which she just snipes whoever the hell she wants and you hzcr the height disadvantage so your 10 archers team isn't even that good there?
I wanted to play more TO remake, but then I tried to recruit Deneb so I obviously stopped shortly afterwards.


I've tried custom music in Necrodancer but the beats were way off.
Did they improve the sick beats recognition algorithms lately?
It would actually work pretty well with some Hotline 2 tracks, like Miss Minnie, Acid Spit or Sexualizer


BoI: I beat ??? with ???, and this isn't a spoiler.

Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #627 on: March 19, 2015, 12:49:34 AM »
I don't know how much work has been done on Necrodancer to be honest (only version I played was on brother's HTPC and I don't think he had latest version at the time).

The algorithm is an open source one from memory and I think it is used by other beat games (Audiosurf?  ) that seem to work okay, so dunno. 

Custom tracks were hit and miss in the version I played, but it was a communal thing so even when the tracks were all fucked up it was still pretty fun.
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hinode

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #628 on: March 19, 2015, 12:52:35 AM »
Supposedly the craft rates in TOPSP were significantly increased in the international releases, although I'm too lazy to hunt down a source quote on this.

My personal crackpot theory is that the developers were forced to add an item crafting system into the game by higher-ups against their will, possibly late in the development cycle. The bitter programmers then decided to take their frustrations out on players by making the system tedious in as many ways as they could think of. I certainly can't imagine anyone who wasn't in an extremely sadistic mood devising the crafting chain required for Wootz Steel.

Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #629 on: March 19, 2015, 01:08:53 AM »
You had linked to a thread discussing it on gamefaqs back when I played IIRC, so certainly prepared to take it at face value.

I always tend to read that kind of design as it being "optional stuff" that is there for completionists who attributed Time spent:$ value as king, so they build to it.  Which makes for shitty play (and shitty design for that target since resets don't add to your game clock for epeening!)
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Fenrir

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #630 on: March 19, 2015, 01:51:42 AM »
I don't know how much work has been done on Necrodancer to be honest (only version I played was on brother's HTPC and I don't think he had latest version at the time).

The algorithm is an open source one from memory and I think it is used by other beat games (Audiosurf?  ) that seem to work okay, so dunno. 

Custom tracks were hit and miss in the version I played, but it was a communal thing so even when the tracks were all fucked up it was still pretty fun.
I hope you played with a dance pad too and never got past level 1


I had actually forgotten entirely about TO crafting until hinode mentioned w00t steel. It's all coming back.
We should also mention TOr encouraging you to stick to one or two classes per battle, by giving some permanent stat bonuses, when one class levels up, to everyone in that class

hinode

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #631 on: March 19, 2015, 02:34:13 AM »
Thankfully it's only +0.1 to your base stats upon level-up in the international versions, which is pretty negligible even applying it to every single stat. Chapter 4 special PCs will pretty much always outstat your trained generics from chapter 1 in practice.

In the Japanese version, level-ups were +0.5 to all stats, which mattered... a lot, from what I hear.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #632 on: March 19, 2015, 06:43:57 PM »
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance - Beaten. Final chapter was actually kinda decent, Kieran got 2HKOed by a dragon + Bryce both with >140 hit which was kinda surprising. Too bad most of the game features somewhat less competent enemies using steel right up to the very end. Game was enjoyable, though FE9 does feel rather clunky to me compared to most of the surrounding games - map animations are very slow for map animations, detailed animations don't show hit/dmg/crit, weapon ranks are slow to go up and invisible, that stupid shop system where things randomly appear and disappear. The writing was a mixed bag, which does put it near the top of the series for writing. Translation could be better (and the voice acting is awful when it exists), but that's not too big a deal. The game has a bunch of scenes where it encourages the player to consider the morality of the situation... is Soren's behaviour right? Is Titania's? Is Sanaki's? Is Ike's? etc. Unfortunately towards the end of the game, Ike is always right forever. Special awkward points for the ending in which every PC talks about how awesome Ike is. Uuuhhh. It's interesting how I didn't actually notice this as much before.

Kill leader was Marcia with 100, followed by Oscar with 95, Mia with 91, Ike with 85, and Kieran with 74. The rest, for my own reference:
Astrid 71 > Jill 69 = Soren 69 > Titania 66 > Tanith 41 > Calill 36 > Geoffrey 28 > Boyd 23 > Lethe 20 > Gatrie 17 > Rhys 14 > Elincia 12 = Stefan 12 > Ilyana 7 > Devdan 6 > Rolf 4 > Ena 2 = Largo 2 = Bastian 2 = Ranulf 2 > Haar 1 = Janaff 1 = Makalov 1 = Volke 1 = Mordecai 1

Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia HM - At Oblivion Ridge. I actually beat the boss of the mansion on the first try, only boss I've done that to besides the first. Randoms are getting less soul-crushingly damaging which is nice. I do think the damage scaling for HM could have been done a bit better, but I guess it's partly balanced with the Level 1 cap in mind should you play with that? Game is still great fun regardless. Not sure what I'll do after this playthrough. Could try with the Level 1 cap, or playing as Albus, or just trying to get really good/fast at NM. Or do some silly challenges involving glyph restrictions to force myself to use different ones. We'll see.

Marathon Infinity - Beat the VidMaster's challenge which was good fun.

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Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #633 on: March 19, 2015, 07:31:36 PM »
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance - Beaten.

I am glad you got around to trying this little known gem.  i am only joking please don't hate me



Grim Fandango - started up because I feel like I need something different.  So good.  It has aged a chunk , but the production quality of work from years ago still shines through. VA to die for.
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The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #634 on: March 19, 2015, 10:10:09 PM »
Ori and the Blind Forest: This game is really fucking gorgeous. I feel like that gets said a lot, but the nature backdrops and some aspects of character design look like they came straight from Hayao Miyazaki's brain. The backgrounds are constantly moving and the game does some cool things with things happening in the foreground. I haven't gotten incredibly far, but it seems like there could be some cool things in terms of positive restoration of nature, kind of like Okami (or maybe that's something that I want to see more), but there is this voice narrator who sounds like Dormin from Shadow of the Colossus, so I'm not exactly sure where this is going. The opening scene does a really good job of building a connection between characters, so my interest is piqued, although the storytelling is pretty minimalist so far.

In terms of gameplay, it is very much a Metroidvania type of game where parts of the map that you've explored can be reexplored once you get wall jump, double jump, etc. The platforming isn't incredibly tough so far, but your jump is kind of floaty and has less control than you'd want. There are some teleport puzzles that don't intuitively let you know where you will end up, which can easily make it so you land on spikes and keep getting killed on spikes. The game does use an interesting system where one of your resources, energy, is also used to save. The game doesn't really checkpoint you but you can save anywhere so long as you have energy. I can imagine a situation where you save before a point where you may fail a lot because you didn't save with enough health, but that hasn't been an issue so far. I've also never had a problem with running out of energy since the other thing you use it for is a combat move that doesn't seem essential so far.

Combat itself is a little weird. You shoot these little beams that home in on an enemy but you don't really aim them or target things. You have free movement while you shoot so combat so far has been me jumping around while mashing on the shoot button. It's not great.

I'm interested in seeing where this is going. There is a skill tree that isn't very extensive but does have some pretty useful upgrades, but I think I'm mostly in it for the art direction.

Grim Fandango - Shamefully, I never played this back in the day. The tank controls aren't great and the fixed camera can be a little funky, but that's harkening back to some older shit. There are already some puzzle with really byzantine solutions, and unlike the Monkey Island special editions there isn't a hint system, so I wonder what weird shit I'm going to be stuck on before I FAQ everything. The atmosphere and voice acting in the game is great and the first trip to the real world made me laugh out loud, so I am liking this so far.

NotMiki

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #635 on: March 20, 2015, 05:39:09 AM »
Grim Fandango: I'm stuck on the roof, trying to deal with birds.  Baloon Animal Robert Frost, surprisingly, did not scare them off.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
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Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #636 on: March 20, 2015, 07:36:15 AM »
Solution if you want it.
bread and kitty balloon animal.  Bread from the stall next to ballon animal clown
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The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
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SnowFire

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #637 on: March 20, 2015, 08:47:16 PM »
RUN YOU PIGEONS IT'S ROBERT FROST

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #638 on: March 20, 2015, 11:08:27 PM »
I finished Grim Fandango last night.  I had completely forgot about the randomly generating beat poetry.  So great.
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The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Ranmilia

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #639 on: March 21, 2015, 12:52:29 AM »

These kinds of games really get a weird meta level to them where high level play becomes about managing risk inherent to the procedural generation system based on systems that are actually entirely outside the actual play loop of the game itself.  Fascinating stuff and I hope Alex does a drive by post on this sort of thing

Ahhhhh why you got to do a thing?

So, "high level" play in modern indie roguelikes huh.  It all depends on what the player wants to get out of the game, with a side dose of comparison to how much they put into it.  All of them have a sort of competence threshold to hit where the player can guarantee success at the basic gameplay, barring perhaps a truly awful run of variance where absolutely no good items appear throughout the entire run and the player is slowly attritioned to death in later areas. 

For some of these games, this basic threshold is relatively high and simply hitting it is the bulk of what the game has to offer.  I would place Necrodancer and Nuclear Throne in this category.  They appear very, very difficult for entry level play and have precise control requirements and harsh punishments for mistakes.  Once you get over the hump and master their basic systems, however, the entire game opens up.  Once you get the hang of the beats, Necrodancer is easy to clear even with the OHKO setting.  Once you get the hang of the combat system and enemies in Nuclear Throne, it doesn't *really* matter what weapons happen to drop, most anything will do.  ... and once that point is reached, the game is pretty much done except for trying for small optimizations in speed.  It might take 200 games to beat Nuclear Throne the first time, but then you very quickly become able to beat it every time, and keep looping until you're bored.

Then there are the games like Binding of Isaac and Risk of Rain (without Command).  These games are relatively easy to get into and somewhat forgiving of mistakes.  There's still a learning curve to the basic systems, but new players are more likely to reach the third or fourth major area within a handful of playthroughs, and to clear the basic game within ten or twenty.  But in these games, that's not the end but the beginning.  There are a lot of random items that significantly alter gameplay, there are a lot of additional unlockable items that reward certain challenges and playing in specific and unusual ways, and there's a major player drive to see new combos in how these items can interact with one another, and to shoot for gaming the system and trying to find specific items and combos by learning all the quirks of the item generation code.  I think this is what Grefter was wanting me to talk about, I don't really know what to say though.

Risk of Rain is interesting in that it introduced the Command artifact, which makes item drops nonrandom and lets the player just pick what they want.  As far as I can tell, this is a very popular setting and few people continued to play RoR without using it.  ... and then, few people continued to play Risk of Rain in general.


Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #640 on: March 21, 2015, 02:26:24 AM »
You said things, that is what I wanted.  Thank you Alex.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
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SnowFire

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #641 on: March 21, 2015, 02:42:39 AM »
Tactics Ogre: Falling Down - Finally.  Fort Boed cleared.  Operation Blink Ninja Throws Templars Off The Walls worked...  although not without its own issues.  First, I gave up my no-Chariot use to grind up a 3rd Wheel of Fortune for more Blinkwalk.  (Actually, a 4th would have been super-helpful too, but 3 ended up barely sufficient.)  Grinding specific tarots is a bit annoying; I reduced 2 enemies to their knees (and left 1 archer enemy at full health farther away) then Chariot experimented with dealing the killing blow from a variety of angles until a Wheel of Fortune finally came up.  Tedious but not as tedious as it'd have been with no Chariot.

Anyway, with turn 1 Blinkwalk, Denam can get behind Oz on turn 2 and try to knock him off.  Daggers already have a high crit rate and knock people back annoyingly often; adding in Knockback I to go with the double attack just makes it quite reliable actually.  I even got the best case, which is the Dirk +1 inflicting silence on Oz.  (He wasted his next turn removing it.)  I *still* needed a Blinkwalking Cistina to jump up to heal her sister, too, and my other healers got gummed up by the dropped Oz walking near the first set of stairs, so his Rampart Aura prevented them from getting in for heals.  Denam could send the next Templar in line to take a shot at Cerya crashing to the ground, as well.  Fun times.

I still lost, ignoring Chariot of course, because I took an opportunity to get a OHKO then watched in horror as the Templars still were able to off Cerya.  Fine, roll that back, then lose again: it turns out that Oz being silenced wasn't useless at all.  He turns around and throws a Sparksphere II into Cerya's back for 95 damage, more than his basic attack, and usable at high range with a huge height difference!  This barely kills her of course.  Holy crap, this is rough.  And of course a Shackled Templar (the 2nd one Denam had thrown off the walls, after Oz) just had to go hug Cerya so that Canopus couldn't stand next to her and item her.  Anyway, I Chariot muckety-mucked back a bit until somehow, for some reason, Cerya had barely enough HP such that Oz couldn't OHKO her (like 105 HP rather than 90 - did she get another block in, or did I redirect an AI attack?  I guess.), so Oz settled for nearly scorching Arycelle to death instead.  I was able to eventually surround Oz with units so that he couldn't go anywhere, and another Templar conveniently blocked the staircase down, so AI Cerya couldn't be threatened to walk back downstairs to her death.  Good, since Oz did totally murder one of my units with Mistral Edge, and Arycelle ate deadly arrows, so this battle was still rough (2 knocked unconscious!  ouch), but eventually Denam / Canopus / Cistina cleaned up the squishies on the roof while my other units kept the front line under control, mostly thanks to totally broken Shackles off my mage.  Then I murdered the hell out of Oz.  With Cerya alive.  TAKE THAT.

Okay, interesting design whoever made this battle up, but still, please go dunk your head in a toilet.  This is just plain too hard, and I don't see any even vaguely reliable way to do this until I found out about the (extremely limited!) Blinkwalk-from-Tarot-Cards insight, and even then you need a high-movement character like Ninja to get a turn 2 knockback, maybe.  Sheesh.

Ranmilia

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #642 on: March 21, 2015, 07:43:53 AM »
Okay, to elaborate a little bit more:  "high level play" in roguelikes these days usually means speedruns or challenge runs.  Of the two types of roguelikes I outlined earlier, the second (BoI/Risk of Rain/Spelunky) is far more popular for this than the first type.  Of course randomness plays a large role in the outcomes of these speedruns/races/challenges, but the trick is using sufficient knowledge of the game's nonobvious mechanics to help overcome this randomness and "play to your outs" as best as possible.  Which is, I think, what Grefter was asking about.

Before even touching on this, though, it is important to make clear that all this type of play is not aimed at the new or casual player who is just playing the game 1-10 times and putting it down.  All this content and all these concepts are aimed at people who are deeply into these games and spend a lot of time playing them.  Like
- Youtube personalities who do full runs with in depth commentary every day
- Streamers who marathon games nonstop when they come out, for up to two weeks, with literally no breaks, until they 100% the game, and only then return to a "normal" schedule of streaming it for 4-8 hours nightly
- Speedrunners who do multiple daily attempts at 3+ hour marathon all-character runs
- That's just Isaac, you want some Spelunky, how about Bananasaurus Rex, here are some links: https://www.youtube.com/user/FlyingToast303/playlists 
http://www.polygon.com/2013/12/23/5227726/anatomy-of-a-spelunky-miracle-or-how-the-internet-finally-beat

Now a lot of the folks here reading this are probably going "lol yes if you're a super obsessed ultra minority grinder, but who cares about them?"  Obviously the above are all very extreme examples, but they are not alone or as extreme as one might think.  The Steam global achievement stats for Binding of Isaac Rebirth show the rate of users getting into the final unlocks to be around 2 to 5%.  (2% for True Platinum God, aka Absolutely Everything including the really tedious grind bits, 4% for Godhead, the hardest "skill" achievement involving beating everything with the OHKO character on Hard, and a bit over that for completing some of the OHKO character's unlock branches.)  5% sounds like a low number... but count the number of people you know who play these games and think about even one in twenty of them being into "hardcore" play.  The original Binding of Isaac sold well over two million copies according to Wikipedia, and while sales stats aren't available for Rebirth, it's not at all unreasonable to imagine it's broken a million already.  Five percent of a million people, or heck, half a million, is still a heck of a lot of people interested in and engaging with roguelikes in these ways.

So let's talk in depth about Binding of Isaac Rebirth, since it's currently the most popular game of this type by far.  Isaac is an easy game to beat.  As Fenrir noted, even a relatively non-hardcore player can enjoy ~100% clear rates when taking their time and using the stronger characters.  But trying to play quickly, in a race or speedrun situation - that changes the game significantly.  There are a few items that can "break" normal progression and enable fast wins right from the start of a run, but they're relatively rare.  On the other hand, there are much more common items in certain categories (Curse Rooms and Devil Deals) that are closer to, I dunno, 20-30% reliability at putting the player on the fast track.  If the game was all about resetting for Polyphemus in the item room that would be one thing, but it's not.  On average, or in a race situation where resetting counts against your overall time, it's better to accept a "just decent" starting item and then try for some of the somewhat reliable routes.

Curse Rooms have a high rate of appearing on almost every floor, and a low to moderate chance of containing either soul hearts or one of the Guppy items.  Not taking red heart damage highly increases the chance of getting Devil Deals, which can contain gamebreaking items, or Guppy items (three Guppy items breaks the game), or more soul hearts.  Soul hearts help ensure you don't take red heart damage.  Mapping items can shave significant time off a run, and are found exclusively in shops, so it is good to get $15 if possible to buy them if they appear.  That's just a super bare bones primer but you can already see how there exist many possible avenues of reinforcement and good habits that will on average produce significantly faster runs and higher success rates than just rolling the dice on the starting item room. 

We can go even beyond that, though.  Roguelikes are randomly generated, but they are rarely truly random.  Map generation engines for these games have patterns, they *have* to in order to produce playable areas, and with enough experience humans can pick up on these rules, either explicitly or subconsciously.  Spelunky speedrunners can look at the first bit of a level and tell the path to the exit with about 95% accuracy.  Isaac isn't quite so kind from a starting position, but it's still good enough that the Map is effectively also the Compass for telling where the boss is.  Diablo 2 runners... well, most of them maphacked back in the day, but the folks still playing no longer need to, and there are some code dissections floating around out there if you care to look.  The randomness can be gamed, and for a decent subset of players like myself that is absolutely fascinating.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #643 on: March 22, 2015, 01:10:46 AM »
Nier - Forget all this in-universe hype for shades and living statues, wild boars are the true badasses.

Not much else to say, enjoying the game pretty well so far. Gameplay doesn't seem like a reason to play it but it's not offensively bad or anything.

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #644 on: March 22, 2015, 01:57:34 AM »
The game will remember the boars in time. Oh yes, it will.

Captain K

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #645 on: March 22, 2015, 03:01:17 AM »
Xenoverse:  Beat story mode, mostly by abusing Fighting Pose F.  Ginyu Force!  Final level was 48.  Hardest fight was Beerus and Whis, followed by one of the fights with Cell, I think the first one.

Puzzle and Dragons:  Ultimate Evolutioned Baal into David Bowie.  Now maybe I can beat some of the harder dungeons.

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #646 on: March 22, 2015, 02:30:17 PM »
Lisa - is pretty cool, thanks for mentioning it Fenrir.

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #647 on: March 23, 2015, 01:14:14 AM »
Super glad you're enjoying it!

Alex, nice analysis. I'd definitely put Spelunky in your first type of roguelike though instead of the second, extreme challenge / not much to do postgame / less variation between playthrough

2% who got True Platinum God in Isaac Rebirth is pretty sad, considering that te Lost achievements are worse than playing an MMO and beating a boss over and over until he drops the item you want.
I searched the Lost on the Rebirth Steam forum and everybody hates it. I think that people just have to get the last achievements because they're too far into the game to not get them, like people in failed mariages keep going on because they're too far into their failed mariage.

I just had the sickest run with ???, like scythe + Double shot, then Proptosis and a Lump of Coal, and then every damage boost in the world like the Mark and Cricket's Head. Then soy milk and libra on the last floor. I'm pretty sure I beat the Lamb before he got an attack.

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #648 on: March 23, 2015, 01:32:04 AM »
Cool stuff, Alex. Your drivebys are always welcome.

Captain K

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Re: What Games are you playing 2015?
« Reply #649 on: March 23, 2015, 01:47:56 AM »
MH4U:  Finally beat the Urgent Quest 5, which was kicking my ass royally.  I came very close to ripping my DS into two pieces.  Why no, I don't have anger issues, why do you ask?

Now back to regular questing.  The game isn't bad when it's not punching you in the nuts over and over and OH GOD PLEASE STOP.

I need some higher level materials to make the rest of my armor set because Fashion Souls.  But I think I have to upgrade my guild rank first.  I've been largely ignoring guild quests and doing story and expeditions instead.  Then I streetpass people that are G rank but haven't done any story quests and have no palicoes.  So multiple ways to play the game.