DL Overview Topic #1: Limit Scaling Views

[Dhyerwolf]

I actually meant to potentially make these topic back when I did the TitS topic, but it recently came up and since I have a little time off, I thought it would be fun to explore some old DL views and how they've evolved. The DL definitely used to be a little harder on some limits, and feels like it's gotten a little more lenient now.

First, a note on my general views: I'm not a fan of 100% one size fits all when it comes to limits. I like to find a balance that I think meshes well with in game. So big factors in games where I am more permissive include how quickly limits can be built (theoretically you could allow half for everyone where it applies in all games, but that washes away that in slow to build limit games, the limit just often have no real impact in game. Item use show how restoring limits can be a crucial aspect in this. Generally if a game is easy to refill limits very quickly, I allow the 50% bar).

Here are all the games I could think of where it is of central import:
FIRE EMBLEM 9/10- While FE games rarely features limits, Fire Emblem 9 and 10 (especially 10 since that's the one the DL cares about with good reason) features the somewhat ill fated Laguz. In FE 10, Laguz naturally start 0 energy stored and need 30 to transform. They naturally gain an amount each turn and when attacked (you generally don't want them to be attacked given that when they transform, non HP stats double). I wrote this a little out of order, but this is similar to Mages in TO. You are generally going to use lots of items by endgame to transform ASAP. I allow them to start transformed with 15 energy left and the ability to use Olivi Grass. This generally allows them to attack 2-3 times so they at least have workable strategies that let them having some duelling prowess.

Effect on the Cast: Either you have a horde of poor Lights and Punies or you have a variety of cool slugfesting duellers who also bring some nice elemental weaknesses the matter to the DL (because those are too rare for things that so often matter a lot in game). There's also the effect on averages. I definitely don't believe in including no transformation averages as it hyper inflates the cast (and no transformation is literally the same as no attack, and we generally don't put non-attackers in averages). Half shift feels fair since it reflects that most Laguz will need to be protected at certain points (but at the same time, you should generally be prety good at minimizing danger to them; especially at endgame when you have a fair stock of items that allow for instant transformation, even a few that allow transformation for the whole battle).

FINAL FANTASY VII- Limits Bars- Damage incurred base limits. This was the game that got the discussion going. FF  7 limit scaling has started back in the day by allowing all 4 limits to be reached on a modified damage scale. My personal scale was something like 35-60-80-95. I think I scaled that back a little though to 40-65-85-99. Eventually it came out that different people reached different limit levels at different HP points. I applied the average point of limit per activation per limit level and applied it to my previous system...which came out to the following (excepting Cait Sith for scaling on his L2 since it's a very special case, All L1s can be used twice)
Cloud- 32.6%, 73.1%, 94.5%, xxxx
Barret- 30%, 54.1%, 81.3%, 93%
Tifa- 28%, 75.3%, xxx, xxxx
Aeris- 46.5%, 64%, 70%, 90.2%
Red- 45.4%, 67.6%, 84.6%, xxxx
Yuffie- 46.5%, 67.6%, 87%, 99.2%
Cait Sith- 37.3%, 42%
Vincent- 47.1%, 55%, 69.3%, 89%
Cid- 46.5%, 63.2%, 82.6%, 99.2%

Now it was brought up recently that a lot of people take half bars. So...let's see where the puts everyone
Cloud- 23.25% and 69.75%, 53.8%, 72.2%, 84% (Nasty L1 with Paralysis and Nasty L3 for sheer damage and ID)
Barret- 21.4% and 64.2%, 39.85%, 62.1%, 74.7% (Nasty L1 with MP killing, nasty L2 for ID, nasty L3 for damage...which he does lack)
Tifa- 19.9% and 59.7%, 55.5%, 84.5%, 93.9% (All are somewhat proportionally good in a way)
Aeris- 33.2% and 99.6%, 47.15%, 53.5%, 72.4%
Red- 32.3% and 97%, 49.8%, 64.6%, 80.7% (Nasty L2 for damage, Nasty L3 for Damage)
Yuffie- 33.2% and 99.6%, 49.8%, 66.4%, 79.7% (50% Healing on L1, Nasty L2 for damage, Nasty 3 for damage)
Cait Sith- 26.5% and 79.6%, 29.9% and 89.7% (Great L2 healing game)
Vincent- 33.5%, 40.5%, 53%, 70.7% (All his offer something).
Cid- 33.2%, 46.5%, 63.1%, 80% (Only L3 has a point DL wise)

Needless to say that this is a massive improvement, but these feel way too lenient to me. Cloud and Barret L1's are now even harder to chip around and even L4's feel way too accessible. Games where I allow 50% starting bars have a lot of improvements over FF 7 in terms of getting the bar in other ways; FF7 doesn't have an item to restore and use takes up all of the bar (unlike say LoD). I would probably go for maybe 25% of the bar starting, which gives us...

Cloud- 34.87 and 81.38%, 80.7%, xxx
Barret- 32.1%, 59.8%, 93.1%, xxx
Tifa- 29.9%, 83%, xxx
Aeris- 49.8%, 70.7%, 80.2%, xxx

something clearly worse than my first variant. I suppose that I would probably opt for this one if I wanted to be consistent with always crafting my metric. Starting with 50% starting bars, might give Aeris 2 HW's in Light; she's probably the one who most prefers to stick with my way. I also note that Meeple takes it at 37.5%+25% of the formula rate which isn't bad either; it makes L1 comes later, but other stuff come earlier. FF 7 is definitely a game where you can play around with a lot of numbers. Regarless, the half bar start does feel a bit rushed to me (probably didn't help that Limits could feel a bit slow because of how anemic FF 7 enemies were on damage, but that it turns factors into how often they seemed to come up in battle)

GRANDIA 3- SP used for physical techs; gained naturally over time, by taking damage and by doing damage. Grandia 3 is a weird case where we started with allowing full SP, but only because G1 and G2 used SP in a different way (being restored at inns). As such, this gave a lot of dominance to Ulf especially (while mages were hurt). Some at the time adopted a 0 SP view. While the natural SP gains are incredibly slow, the game has a load of fantastic SP restoring items (both in and out of battle) that makes it pretty easy to keep your SP up. Also, later on, you can use Alfina as amazing SP battery to keep everything going. I allow 100 SP to start; it matches the item that you'll be using most to restore SP. It allows for all moves to be used at least once (and most of them felt like they had decent relevance in game that would deserve to have DL usage) without letting them just spam.

Effect on the Cast: More SP makes Ulf/Yuki better for sure. Alfina likes 100 SP to use Armaggedeon, but anymore than likely makes her damage look worse. Dahna would probably be happiest with 25 SP so she could use Dancing Cards for the status and have the damage average lower. Hect would like 0 SP so that her damage looks amazing.

LEGEND OF DRAGOON- SP used to transform into defensive tank Draggons; Gained through doing damage for the most part (with a few other additional ways). LoD was a game where traditionally for most of it's life, the DL took it at 0 starting SP. I start at 2 of 5 bars (half SP rounded down). The main reason that LoD gets credit is that SP is so easy to come by. Certainly if Goto is allowed to start with any, the LoD PCs should too since they are gained in the same way (and LoD characters are far, far, far better about gaining them).

The effect is pretty dramatical overall. If they don't start with SP, they are all reliant on evadable physicals to unlock anymore skillset. Meru and Rose in particular are very badly hit because they either want to shift into the increased durability or potent skillset ASAP. Two of 5 levels at least gives them moderate access without the limit being overpowering (which is just what I like).

LEGENDS OF HEROES: TRAILS IN THE SKY- CP bar used for unique techs and super moves; Limits based on taking and doing damage.  The bar can go up to 200 CP, although frankly there is no reason for it to get that high as ultimate techs need at least 100 CP, but use the whole CP bar (and tend to blow other uses of CP out of the water). There are two different scalings tossed around for TitS: Half the CP bar filled (100 CP) and half the useful CP bar filled (50) (In the old, old school DL, it probably would have been set at 0 CP).

Personally, I like 50 CP. While 100 CP is technically half the maximum bar, the problem is that any CP over 100 is generally not so useful. You are probably going to want to use the big move and since it blows any spare CP, anything over 100 becomes somewhat pointless. More importantly, 100 CP basically makes them all about the super move in the DL so much more than in game. 50 CP definitely balances everything better than 100 CP, where techs and magic just become far less relevant.

At 50 CP, you'll generally need at least 2 turns for 100 CP if you are slower than the enemy and 3 if you are faster.

Overall, the potency of S-Breaks along with not being that spammable in game definitely feels like they aren't things that should be turn 1 in the DL (I mean...literally all of the cast but a single one being able to unleash at minimum 73% PC Damage on turn 1 really, really doesn't feel balanced, although some of them need to at least slow down their turns a little to get to that mark).

Effect on the Cast: Well, 100 CP gives Estelle that OHKO, and makes most of the cast terrors for anyone below 70% durability (and they can 2HKO pretty well too needless to say). So 100 CP is generally a leg up for them overall, but makes their worth almost just tied to one overcentralizing move. The difference between 50 and 100 CP might be almost half a division for all the them on average?

LUFIA 2/LUFIA 3- IP Bars used for special moves found on equips (L2) or character innate (L3). Bars increased based on % of damage taken compared to current HP (Lufia 3 also adds in set gains every turns as well). IP's definitely used to be set at 0% to start, although I think that's increased over time. I personally start them at 26% IP bar for Lufia 2 (which is equivalent to 50% HP taken). This is obviously a bit more generous than FF 7; Part of this might just come from the fact that FF 7 enemies suck so much; the other part is probably that Lufia IPs feel important, but due to the graduated curve, are harder to access without healing. Against someone dealing average damage to them, an L2 PC will only gain 62% of an IP bar before death without any healing. Lufia 2 also feels like it wants to go full throttle on IPs at the end by always starting you at 100 due to a special event, so being more lenient makes sense there too.

Lufia 3 is just completely designed for IP storage because you have 9 PCs, but only 3 can act. But you also gain IP every turn, so you'll be wracking it up consistently. IP is really flying around a lot here. I don't remember the exact number I use, but I think it's at least 36% (Lufia 2's base+10% gain for waiting since on average every character will have at least 1 waiting from the previous battle due to only 33% acting a round).

Effects on the Cast: For Lufia 2, giving them that start is pretty critical for a few strategies (especially the 50% anti-magic healing strat for the fighters, since they are slow and otherwise they wouldn't have the time to get the IPs going for the most part). Without the boost, the fighters tend to become far more straightfoward and dull.

For Lufia 3, it at least helps get Aima somewhat closer to her insane in game performance. It skews the damage average towards IPs more, but unlike many of the other games on the list, the limits are the core of the battle system in L3, and should be reflected as such in the DL. Mages would cry, but with draining, healing, status and defensive tricks, they are gaining too.

MANA KHEMIA 2- Central import, but only for one character. Everyone's most hated failure Goto gets GP points by using certain attacks. These GP points slightly boost his stats and also power his best attack. Technically the bar taps out at 150 GP, so assuming that 50% is the most lenient, he starts with 75 GP. This makes him feel relatively solid...but his limit system is one of the weakest. He blows it all on his only source of damage, he needs to use 4 specific attacks to get that back up to full damage and there's not other real way to get it. Truth be told, he probably has the worst limit bar of instances were it matter. I said in the topic that 40 GP makes sense, since it's about 25% and also the amount he gets from using the GP building attack once. I...can't see an in game justification for higher than that. I would also be okay with literally 0, in which case he fails very badly and we all laugh. He's like a 3 ranking starting with 40, but starting with 0 he's a poor Light (which...well, I can't underline how bad he is in game).

TACTICS OGRE- Tactics Ogre uses both MP for spells and TP for tech attacks. Both naturally start at 0 and grow naturally with time. TP also grows by taking and doing physical damage and is relatively straightforward in a TO way. MP is a bit different. You can give the mages the shaft, you can allow them Magic Herbs, or in my case, I just see them start with 25 MP. I see them start with it because those were so many wasted 1st turns in TO where there would be literally no reason to do any other action besides tossing MP a mage (and generally by faster PCs, so mages often had some to start). As such, mages basically always had some starting MP in game to at least cast a few spells. If there were other decent turn 1 options, I would have availed. This makes mages decent at least.

Cast Effect: Makes it so mages can attack straight off. They still can't unlock their best damage straight off.

VALKYRIE PROFILE- Energy building system where hitting 100 lets you unleash a Soul Strike/Purify Weird Soul. The big quirk that is changed in the DL is that in game (for the most part), characters can't get 100 energy alone and energy does not naturally carry through turns. Your PCs work together to see 100 energy pretty easily, you are are seeing a lot of these moves in game. Most people allow the energy to carry over in the DL for VP 1. In VP 2, characters are allowed to keep acting after just 3 attacks, so a few character can hit PWSes alone. Granted, I don't think this is a reason to disallow PWSes for the others, since you are generally working as a team (Alicia and Lenneth just get the perk of more PWSes). VP:DS arguably takes it a step further and with it's system you could argue that you can PWS in the middle of a turn and then start rebuilding energy after:

Cast Effect: Not allowing carryover energy averages out since unlike many other games with limits, the only effect is on damage. Low energy builders gain more with no carryover, but no carryover energy leaves out a crucial game part.



Games of Moderate Import
FINAL FANTASY VIII- Limits Based on HP Level; No real controversy here, not many varying opinions beyond the occasional one at letting the PCs start at different HP ranges (you could also argue that there's no reason that they wouldn't come in under a Silence status. And Blind certainly for Squall and Selphie).

FINAL FANTASY X- Overdrive Bar that allows limits when full. Limits built in mulltiple ways based on different choices. Limits in FF X do tend to be nice finishers that complement strategies as opposed to being key driving strategies. For scaling...I don't allow any bar storage. The PCs are all lucky in that uber endgame equips that triple OD gain are thrown at them, already making limits super easy to access in the DL (especially considering that some of those weapons are a nightmare to get in game). They already got their scaling. Limits are mainly used as finishers in select matches due to recharge time (except for Kimahri due to utterly lacking a skillset outside of his limit)

LEGAIA 2- While all of Legaia is based on a straightforward semi limit based AP gaining system, Legaia 2 has Mystic Arts. while cost 100 MP, 100 AP and can only be accessed below 50% HP. IIRC, all Legaia AP bars started at 0 each battle, so that was pretty clear cut. Regardless, MAs definitely were limits, and also extremely powerful overkill attacks.

SHADOW HEARTS 3- Stock allows characters to double act. Stock is gained by giving and taking damage. I personally don't allow any stock to start except for Shania. Stock is a bit slow to grow (You'll generaly need to be attacked or attack about 5 times to gain a bar), but unlike say...TitS or G3 (which are other games with slow to gain similar meters), SH 3 doesn't have an items that you can use to regain it quickly (which is really where G3 and TitS gain their in game argument for being somewhat spammable). SH 3 also takes it a step further in being one of the few (or the only one?) where the enemy can flat out damage your limit bar (and many can and will), so you don't even need to use the bar for it to be reset. That unique aspect definitely puts it down to 0 for me.

SOUL NOMAD- Special attacks unlocked when a certain amount of Stamina is used. These generally equate to pretty hefty damage. Straightforward in scaling, although if you allow fully free counters, they are able to use up Stamina more quickly.

TALES OF-Of the games that come up, ToS, TotA and ToV have overlimit states. ToS needs character to do a certain numbers of hits. It's certainly a very slow limit bar to regenerate. I assuming that you control when you enter OL in Tales games, but even then the slow refill rate that requires attacking doesn't make me want to extend much credit. For TotA, the topic notes they activate after 5-6 rounds, but notes that's a gut check and nothing tested. So basically we aren't 100% sure how they activate since it could be hit count again? It allows for longer combos. Again, not enough knowledge of the game mechanics to really be sure.

Tales of Vesperia has a lot of OL limit use for Yuri and Rita. I mean to someday to go and play around with that since I wasn't following an FAQ too closely, so there were a lot of stuff that I missed (especially with that back half of a final dungeon). Tales of Vesperia also had fatal strikes, where attacks built up and eventually allowed for a character to inflict ID and also to restore HP or TP. I generally gut checked this activating on
Yuri- Turn 1
Rita- Turn 1 (with her spell combos, from what I saw)
Estelle- 4-5?
Judy- Turn 3
Raven- Turn 3ish?
Karol- Turn 4
Repede- Turn 3
 
Just are just gut check vased on my memory though.

Meredy in Tales of Eternia also has a time based limit in Destiny. It's recharge is very quick (30 minutes) and can activate in the middle of a battle, so calling OPB makes a lot of sense.

Games of Little Import
BREATH OF FIRE 3- Bonebreak- Time based limits. The DL has two time based abilities to use, and of the two, Bonebreak is definitely the questionable one. Brought this one up in chat a few weeks ago. Sounds like most would limit to once per season, although given how sick Ryu 3's offense, I do in fact doubt it is ever needed. So whatever view you take doesn't have a large impact.
CHRONO CROSS- Not technically generally thought of as limits, but they almost qualify because they do need to be actively worked up too and evasion ruins them a little.
FINAL FANTASY 6- Desperation Attacks- HP based limits. Super low HP threshold and super low chance of activation makes them completely irrelevant
FINAL FANTASY 9- Limits activate when a bar is filled regardless of when you actually want to use them and by endgame, don't really have many good effects anyways minus for those where it allows double casting. Also incredibly slow to fill anyways. What were they thinking when they designed these?
LUNAR DS- Basically, in this one version, Jessica can use 16-20 physical attacks to gain 100% ID or use massive damage. So...good against healers without status. But 20% regen with her healing was already pretty good at that (so she doesn't gain a lot)
Legaia's- Mystic Artes at the very least, arguably the whole system

Radiant Historia- Overlimits
Tales Games- Overlimits (and Destiny)
Valkyrie Profile Games- PWS
Xenosaga Games- Can't even remember the name

Games of Unknown Import
Phantasy Star 2 Remake- It at least has one player. I don't really know how these works, but I seem to remember that it took a few turns of buildup and had some decent damage and status options.

DL Games with Limits, but are so straightforward that no additional thought is needed for the most part:
MMXCM, Skies of Arcadia, WA Games

So, I'd love to hear what other think and what their methodoligies are in terms of finding a balance (especially on games where it actually matters).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Good topic. Will post my own thoughts later.

I'm curious as to your arguments for how to handle the VP series. PWS/Soul Crushes are certainly important and how to take them is by no means clear.

[Dhyerwolf]

Sorry yeah, I meant to include VP, but when I started reorganizing the list order I dropped a few games off. VP definitely goes in the highest category, which I'll edit in now.

I also edited in Fire Emblem 10.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I think it's notable that the "Straightforward" games are straightforward simply because they have Limit systems where Limit points can't be stored from battle to battle. Always zeroing out a Limit Meter is pretty straightforward.

Tales of the Abyss' Overlimit meter is pretty well understood. You gain points for a few different actions, like attacking and being attacked. There's also items for increasing the Overlimit meter. And notably each PC has his/her own OL meter. I personally start them at 50% since it's an easy metric. It still builds slowly enough that it rarely comes up for anyone who doesn't heal. Tear and Natalia have definitely used them in a few DL Matches IIRC.

[Dark Holy Elf]

First, a note on my general views: I'm not a fan of 100% one size fits all when it comes to limits. I like to find a balance that I think meshes well with in game. So big factors in games where I am more permissive include how quickly limits can be built (theoretically you could allow half for everyone where it applies in all games, but that washes away that in slow to build limit games, the limit just often have no real impact in game. Item use show how restoring limits can be a crucial aspect in this. Generally if a game is easy to refill limits very quickly, I allow the 50% bar).

Broadly speaking I agree with all this. I like taking limits in the DL such that they're interesting, reward uniqueness, are reflective of in-game, and not overpowered.


Fire Emblem 10 - What Dhyer said about this cast I generally found myself nodding along to. I'm not quite certain what I do. I'd also have to figure out how to handle this in the averages; unlike most limits, laguz change drastically in not just damage, but durability and AS. Kind of a big deal!


Final Fantasy 7 - I still use the convention I outlined in the FF7 stat topic years ago, which makes all limits possible to get and definitely a factor in FF7 duels but the really good ones are quite avoidable. It creates a good balance IMO. Obviously I respect other methods too.


Grandia 3 - I'm not sure. It's pretty easy to keep SP pretty high in-game due to items etc. as Dhyer mentioned, and SP moves are also the greatest source of cast uniqueness. On the other hand, they do rewards the fighters considerably more, as noted. However I think the problem here is that no innate magic really craps on the mages. This even plays out with the temps, as high-SP interps favour Alonso way too much... but that's also partly just because Alonso spends much of his party tenure with way worse stats. I've never seen a proposed method for handling this cast that I'm completely happy with.


Legend of Dragoon - By inertia they start at zero, but I have to say the arguments for maintaining that are tough these days. The biggest reason to do so is that the durability push is ridiculous so I might feel a need to reflect that if PCs could all access it on turn 1 (although I suppose... only for one round, if at 2 bars).

One LoD interp I'm pretty big on these days is that they're immune to melee counters. Fire Emblem's addition to the DL really wrecks LoD duellers otherwise, as being forced to trigger a counter before they can do anything makes such slugfests all but impossible to handle, even if they have match-winning skills (Rose should not lose to Lowen). The argument for this is that LoD enemies counters which apply only to (non-Shana/Miranda base physicals)... and you can negate them with a timed hit. Seems a reasonable bone to throw them. Note this is not immunity to all counters, as enemies frequently have counters to all damage which are NOT negatable this way. It's a pretty elegant solution to this issue all-around I feel. Obviously less necessary if you give starting SP, though!


Trails in the Sky - Gives me a headache. I hate what starting SP lets this cast do to the frail, so yeah, 100 is probably out. On the other hand you can store it, so 50 feels fair enough? Would need to look at how fast the cast gains SP. I do want limits to come up, as Estelle should be rewarded for how good hers is... so yeah more than 0 is probably a good idea!


Lufia 2 - No starting IP for me. I find most of the IP-based strategies (especially the healing, which was laughably useless compared to spells and items) to be FAQ-based stuff I had no idea about when playing the game, I don't feel like making it even more relevant. No starting IP hurts the fighters some, but non-Artea mages are hurt more so whatevs.


Mana Khemia 2 - Inclined to just say "fuck Goto" and I don't even hate the character as much as most! Such a bad PC in-game.


Tactics Ogre - In-game not being able to use spells turn 1 is a notable issue, I don't feel like throwing it out by giving lots of starting MP. Same with starting TP, I don't feel like fucking up the damage average even more. That said I probably do allow Magic Herbs, like I do Olivi Grass; it's an item that is only valuable to a small part of the cast and allows them to function like in-game.


Valkyrie Profile games - Stored energy is not perfect. It greatly inflates the difference between getting 49 energy a turn and 50. It inflates the value of PWSing by oneself (Lucian is not a damage god in-game). And of course it's nothing like how in-game works, and leaves some open questions ("can VP PCs store energy but not use it? Do they keep energy if their attack is dodged"*) But it's better than pretending PWSes don't exist except for certain PCs; they are a huge difference between PCs in-game. Nobody would dream of saying that Grey is better than Belenus in-game and PWS is the reason why (otherwise, Grey is better, with better base physicals and ITE). If someone has another way to fairly reflect Soul Crushes I'm all ears but I've never heard one, so I guess I'll maintain this view.

*The answer is no to both, for me.


Final Fantasy X - The point about Triple Overdrive is a good one! Also this cast is already ridiculously good with its three perfection ST evasion weapons, two first strike weapons, loads of fatal status, etc., it doesn't need any more help. Literally ever character can reasonably gain Overdrives as is.

I only allow Overdrive modes which can be reasonably gained through normal gameplay: typically this is Stoic, Warrior, Ally, and Tactician for DL-relevant methods. Definitely do not allow Loner mode.


Shadow Heats 3 - The point about how enemies actively attack your stock (and often, at that) is a good argument for starting eveyone at zero. So is reflecting the advantage of the Dream Porter. While this is gained late and optionally, I can't stress enough how ridiculously good this is (it singlehandled turned SH3 randoms from badasses I needed to plan for into total jokes, on my last challenge run), and letting everyone start with 1 stock gauge would greatly neuter its power.


Tales of the Abyss - I didn't find Mystic Artes to be very notable or frequent in-game, so I'm fine with them only showing up in stall-fests.


Final Fantasy 9 - See TotA, plus some seconding of Dhyer in regards to having contempt for this system.


Every other cast seems reasonably straightfoward to me.

[Dhyerwolf]

Final Fantasy 7 - I still use the convention I outlined in the FF7 stat topic years ago, which makes all limits possible to get and definitely a factor in FF7 duels but the really good ones are quite avoidable. It creates a good balance IMO. Obviously I respect other methods too.

Grandia 3 - I'm not sure. It's pretty easy to keep SP pretty high in-game due to items etc. as Dhyer mentioned, and SP moves are also the greatest source of cast uniqueness. On the other hand, they do rewards the fighters considerably more, as noted. However I think the problem here is that no innate magic really craps on the mages. This even plays out with the temps, as high-SP interps favour Alonso way too much... but that's also partly just because Alonso spends much of his party tenure with way worse stats. I've never seen a proposed method for handling this cast that I'm completely happy with.

Legend of Dragoon - By inertia they start at zero, but I have to say the arguments for maintaining that are tough these days. The biggest reason to do so is that the durability push is ridiculous so I might feel a need to reflect that if PCs could all access it on turn 1 (although I suppose... only for one round, if at 2 bars).

One LoD interp I'm pretty big on these days is that they're immune to melee counters. Fire Emblem's addition to the DL really wrecks LoD duellers otherwise, as being forced to trigger a counter before they can do anything makes such slugfests all but impossible to handle, even if they have match-winning skills (Rose should not lose to Lowen). The argument for this is that LoD enemies counters which apply only to (non-Shana/Miranda base physicals)... and you can negate them with a timed hit. Seems a reasonable bone to throw them. Note this is not immunity to all counters, as enemies frequently have counters to all damage which are NOT negatable this way. It's a pretty elegant solution to this issue all-around I feel. Obviously less necessary if you give starting SP, though!

Trails in the Sky - Gives me a headache. I hate what starting SP lets this cast do to the frail, so yeah, 100 is probably out. On the other hand you can store it, so 50 feels fair enough? Would need to look at how fast the cast gains SP. I do want limits to come up, as Estelle should be rewarded for how good hers is... so yeah more than 0 is probably a good idea!

Tactics Ogre - In-game not being able to use spells turn 1 is a notable issue, I don't feel like throwing it out by giving lots of starting MP. Same with starting TP, I don't feel like fucking up the damage average even more. That said I probably do allow Magic Herbs, like I do Olivi Grass; it's an item that is only valuable to a small part of the cast and allows them to function like in-game.

I didn't see your notes in the FF 7 topic. Do you remember they were formulated? FF 7 is the game I'm still pondering a fair amount.

For G3, I need to eventually get Alonso notes. But...the argument for the heavy SP storing doesn't really exist when Alonso is the party (It's not until later that the items that make keeping SP up become available at the casino), so expect his damage to take at least a little tumble overall due to that (Also, Spirit Lancer will look worse because he has it a relatively short time in comparison to the other damage moves the other PCs are using, so it's not going to get as many level ups). I suspect that Alonso will just generally look worse. Truth be told, I think that without those items, G3 SP scaling will be basically on the lowest tier for the most part.

For LoD- Lack of melee counters help a little, but it's really just the durability that tends to sink them. I don't mind the durability jump too much since as you noted, it's pretty short lived, and it most helps the people who kind of get the shaft from the in game to DL translation on durability (It helps that even with Meru's speed, she'll sometimes need to survive a hit since speed is randomized turn 1, so she's probably like 114% speed turn 1). But otherwise, Meru has issues with that near 50% Pdur and Rose will often need to take 2 hits (not generally happening given that HP) before being able to access her awesome skillset. So helps cover up some bad DL translations (and the people with the better traslations are the ones that are going to be taking a hit before transforming generally). Also, has the slight weighing that going straight to Dragoon often isn't quite optimal damage even over 2 turns (at least for Albert, Haschel, Rose and Kongol).

50 CP start for Trails definitely gives Estelle the best use since she's the one who can reliably access it (Also allows a few cool skills to see some use that makes the duellers more interesting and helps reflect in game worth. Tita's Blind and Olivier's healing jump to mind).

For TO, was there an easy way to get TP up and running at the start of the battle like there was MP? I seem to remember that it was easy to get MP rolling, but not so much with TP.

On TotA, just noticed there are more notes later down in the topic. I think like many of the later Tales games, there's just a lot of stuff I don't have a great handle on. Although no notes on how taking damage effects the bar, so it hard's to say how long a healer needs to wait out (For example, can Guy use his healing to wait successfully). I definitely remember it being a little slow to get a 50% bar (which is the most I consider), but it items also did it (and were relatively accessible) that could do it.

[SnowFire]

Hmm, seems more like "resource gauge interps" than "limits" to me, but sure.  The DL is ever a war between "this is faithful to how it works in-game" and "sorry, this is the DL, the rules are different here, go home and cry that you don't translate right."

The one thing in common for all resource bars is how much the DL wants to reflect "this is a random encounter" vs. "this is a boss whom you have prepared carefully for and know their mechanics."  Since the DL traditionally allows crazy equipment juggling that makes no sense for unknown random encounters but does work for prepared boss battles, I'm inclined to lean toward the "this is a prepared for boss" side, which means some non-controversial things like "full HP and full MP", but could also imply "full limity gagues" a la Grandia TP/SP.  The only issue is that if you assume this, sometimes the cast ends up really wacky since they go in the average then and screw with things - FFX gets weird if everyone walks in with full Overlimits.  So yeah, it's definitely a balancing act.

G3 SP
Full bar. 

FE10 laguz, FF7, FF9, Radiant Historia, Trails in the Sky, Tales of [Whatever]
Half-full bar.  For all that in some of these games they'll never realistically see it.

Lufia 2, FFX, LoD, SH3 stock
nope.jpg, albeit largely out of inertia to existing interps, and because giving these casts starting bars does weird things to 'em.

Tactics Ogre
1 blank turn of MP/TP assumed of just moving into position, since this is true to the vast majority of the game's maps - often you have more than 1 turn (e.g. the Barnicia Castle fight with Lanselot, your mages can quite reasonably spend 4 moves to get into position, while even Canopus requires 2-3 to get there.)  [This is ~20 MP and ~18 TP; somewhat more MP if you have Expand Mind.]  Of course one of the rare exceptions where the brawl starts on turn 1 is in fact the final map, so this isn't perfect, but I prefer not to allow items when possible.  (There are lots of other casts too where cheap item-based MP healing isn't a big deal in-game, and we don't let them have it either because DL rulez...  for all that this interp is better to the game than assuming no items, which makes the mages all horrible in an even less realistic fashion, and inflates the rest of the cast.)  Of course the most in-game appropriate interp would be to let the mages start preloaded with +75 MP off a Magic Herb +2, since Field Alchemy I is easy to get and the cost is irrelevant, but oh well.

Trails, part 2
Eh, been over this one before. I respect that half-full CP does do weird things to the cast, but it's not as bad as say FFX here IMHO.  Bravely Default's been fine and it's in a similar position: in both games, characters have spiky as hell damage, and if that's reflected in the DL, I'm okay with that.  I'm not on board with Dhyer's hype for the other abilities which end up relevant in the DL.  In-game these abilities are almost always worse than waiting on them and using them instead for a free turn, and the few that aren't are still useful in a 100 CP interp.  But hey, on the bright side, I actually don't think this is so bad for the cast: getting more damage and instakill limits is fine.  I'm not even sure there's even a half-division adjustment for 50 CP vs. 100 CP, they're quite close in power.

Honestly the bigger complaint with Trails's translation to the DL for me is how potent it makes starting magic - Tita ends up way better than she should be because she joins late and therefore has some starting magic, despite Estelle being just as able to equip that magic and probably better at using it since she has 0 locked orbment slots, while Tita has horrible Space-locked slots.  But eh, this has been true for a long time in the DL (see FF6/FF7 for famous examples of starting magic being way more important in DL than in-game), so whatever.

Also, mentioned this in the stat topic, but the Gladiator's Headband provides a steady font of CP in-game and is one of the best accessories around.  You only get 1 of them, but you get it pretty early and it's a notable increase IIRC.  Certainly helps crank out the Estelle/Joshua S-Crafts more constantly.

[Dhyerwolf]

Minus equips, it feels like the DL at least trends towards mini-boss status rather than full boss, personally. Maybe it's that fight feel somewhat consecutive to me.

I'm not sure why G3 would get a full bar, but LoD would get nothing. For all that you can say giving those cast full bars does weird things, this is also true of G3 SP. Also, Lufia 2 and LoD really don't end up that weird (LoD especially as the big gainers are the girls, who are the ones who tended to get shafted in the DL translation). I definitely does very weird things to FF 7 (moreso than one turn of increased durability for LoD).

BD vs TitS comaprison is missing an important facet of BD's unbalance: characters that do basically no damage. TitS has 85% of the PC Cast doing 73% to 100% damage on turn 1 (and the last person still gets Impose anyways). BD has Freelancer, Red Mage, Spiritmaster, Performer, Swordmaster, Conjurer, Valkryie and SpellFencer. Throw in WM, because doing 60% damage is rather unimpressive considering the kick back of 3 turns. That's 9 out of 24 classes. So while the imbalance is powered somewhat by the innate system, it's probably more heavily powered by the fact that there are so many damage losers. The key is that some people do up to 9999, while some do literally 1. I'll you raised all the damage losers who did less than 1500 a turn by 1500, that alone would start making a number of other classes start flagging on damage a little (Hunter, Thief, Ninja...etc). TitS overall has a pretty mellow damage curve, which is why 100 CP has lead to many of them doing such damage.

There were worthwhile in game skills (Flicker was great, Tita's blind move got a lot of use, there were some decent AoE options, Olivier's healing if you needed it then and didn't want to chance the charge time, or if you just wanted to end a match that second without another enemy attack resolving and didn't have 100 CP).

Also on starting/DL magic, Estelle got the best spell in the game and then also got a great attacking spell. So...100 CP is supposed to balance Tita having "better" magic than Estelle, but Estelle does more damage and has the healing. There's very little different between most magic in the DL besides elemental access.

On TO, I would also say that there's a different between a game where you can restore MP by item later but the character can do whatever they want, and the character has doing to generally do the first turn and can use items to ensure proper preparation when the battle gets underway. Not like I'm pushing hard to make TO mages better, but I would say that the big difference is how they function in game strategically (which is what I try to aim for).

[superaielman]

By and large I don't allow or factor in any limit scaling.

FF7-No limit scaling, limits aren't in the damage average.

G3- No SP at all. I didn't find SP to at all be spammable in game. If it were even restorable by save points I'd allow it, but as is? It functions like a limit and gets treated like one in the DL. Sucks for the ones who got boned, but so it goes.

LoD- No SP. I'm more sympatheic to this than I am G3. G3 SP felt like a resource you largely had to horde and use at the right times, LoD SP felt pretty spammy to me.

Lufia 2- No starting SP. I am more inclined to allow Maxim/Selan/Lexis/Tia some spells than I am starting IP. That would at least reflect how useful magic is in game. IPs are very useful in game and the boys have some nasty ones, but it's also a resource that you tend to not use regularly for the most part.

Mana Khemia 2- Noooooooooope. Goto is an absolute scrub in game. His 'limit' game is effectively a handicap on an already wretched PC. I'm not rewarding that in the DL by giving him any kind of starting SP. He can fuck off to puny where he belongs and have slapfights with Alenia, he deserves no better.

VP- I let them hold onto energy. I don't think you ever really duel in game, so I don't mind making this concession. It still reflects in game value well enough (The PC's who generate a lot of energy end off doing well), so it makes sense to me.

SoA- I let PC's use max party SP instead of their max SP. This doesn't matter that much, mostly allows some higher end options.

[Pyro]

Given the amount of preparation that is usually assumed, there isn't much reason not to give a full limit/whatever gauge to someone... except that often times we don't like what it does to a cast!

I always figured that allowing a half-full gauge was a 'happy medium' between allowing a full gauge (which no one seems to do, oddly) and allowing none. This is also about where you would be if you looked at a 'random' point. Granted, duels aren't generally considered 'random points' and are assumed to be well-rested and prepared as need be, except for this one thing.

In honesty to be consistent with prep work before a battle allowed, we would allow full limit gauges and say it was just a windfall for the cast (sort of like casts having universal counters, or lots of healing spells instead of items). I don't think it's done just as a matter of people not liking the result in terms of cast power and 'uniqueness'. Remove that factor and I think most people don't think about it much. For example, Terra's Morph Meter, which is generally assumed to be full, and no one assumes it to be empty, even though it may be less 'spammable' than some other things that aren't allowed.

I think if I were honest with myself I'd let all gauges be full, but I don't want to be too far out of the mainstream!

Fire Emblem 10:
The Laguz are a headachy case, for sure. I think I'd allow half full bar to start with, along with the ability to use Grass or maybe stones. This makes them highly vulnerable to getting jumped on (makes sense really) but pretty mean if they get a chance to get going (also pretty true!).
A lot of the Laguz would look really, really good if they had full starting bars.

Final Fantasy 7
Limit bars start half full I suppose. Dhyer went over what that looks like. This strikes me as completely fair, and representative of how hard/easy it is to get those limits. Again, keeping the spirit of 'preparation' alive would give them full (or near-full I guess because they can only attack once they get the limit) bars!

Grandia 3:
I think I allow full SP just because it isn't really a 'limit' reset to 0 function. And because throw the cast a bone, they ain't got much else. On a related note, I don't know about the highest level of Dynamite Rush.


Legend of Dragoon:
Dragoon gauges start half full. Fair compromise for not letting them properly prepare with a full gauge. As far as this being 'too good' or whatever, hey MMXCM exists, FE gets universal counters, PS4 has lots of healing, etc etc.


Trails in the Sky:
Half-full here is kind of hard for me. While the max is 200, any usage above that resets it to 0.
Maybe 75 would be a better compromise.

Lufia 2/Lufia 3:
50% starting IP. Again, compromise between the more true-to-preparedness full IP and not letting them get too much advantage out of it.


Mana Khemia 2:
I don't know why Goto's gague is treated so differently than Terra's. Half-full or full. If he wants to forswear his utilization of it I'd say he could always have it full?


Tactics Ogre:
This one is a bit messier. SRPG games like this and FE one can define the 'start' of combat to be at some point in the middle of a map level, or at the very first turn. I think I'd trend more towards giving em a little bit extra starting MP.


Valkyrie Profile Games:
I do energy storage (I even did a VP topic considering it!). ANOTHER way to do this would be to multiply energy gain by 4, and if that reaches 100 give em the PWS turn 1! This might make people unhappy at the front-loaded nature of the damage. And we've seen how much people LOOOOVVVEE front loaded damage.


FF 8:
Let them come in silenced/blinded? Never thought  of that. What about coming in at an HP below their limit... These things aren't allowed but with 'reasonable preparation' they can be arranged.

Final Fantasy X:
Start em half full. I don't see a reason to knock the general interp just because FFX is like, the best dueling cast ever.

Shadow Hearts 3:
Normally I'd say 1 stock because 2 is the max, but the desirable nature to burn 1 stock and the fact that enemies can blow it away says maybe 1/2 of one stock gauge. Or maybe 25% of one?

Tales of:
Half full Overlimit gauges sounds fair to me.
ToV is interesting because it has 4 levels, and level 1 is the one you generally care about! As it is a shared resource, one half a single Overlimit gauge sounds fair. Nobody except Yuri and maybe Rita generate enough to see it all that fast. Of course Yuri can do brutal and devastating things with it, as it combos with his existing Overlimit shenanigans in decidedly amazing ways.

Legaia 1/2:
I know Legaia 1 allows you to bring in AP, so 50% it is!

I don't know if Legaia 2 allows you to do that of the top of my head? I think it did?


Soul Nomad:
Stamina is pretty well defined. I'm not sure how to take it. As with my comments on other SRPG systems, maybe some intermediate time into the fight defines this, but it also is bad to lose for stat reasons. Blah. Just let Stamina start full for sanity sake.


BoF3:
3 hours is pretty mean on recharge. It isn't really all that reasonable to let the console sit for 3 hours, even for boss fights. On the other hand, you could just leave it on overnight or something!? Anyways, Once per 'Season' seems awfully fair.

In theory I guess he could let 3 hours go between each turn, but that's a biiiit obnoxious!


FF9:
Uh, half full but it doesn't matter.

Radiant Historia:
Half full, barely matters.

[DjinnAndTonic]

After looking at Pyro's list, I think I generally agree with the idea that Limit Meters are akin to 'preparing for a fight' and I would allow them to start fully charged, but there's basically no cast that wants this because it generally skews the averages such that their in-game performance no longer reflects their DL performance at all. However, preparation seems entirely fair, so giving them something to reflect that seems reasonable. Starting with a half-charge of a -usable- Limit Meter just feels like a good compromise. This way they still have to use their games' mechanics to -build- their Limit meter.

Note that by 'usable' Limit Meter, I'm trying to be consistent for games like LoD, ToV, SH3, etc, where their Limit Meters can be charged multiple times for greater effects. In general, I would set these as half-charged for just their first meter. Trails also falls under this because they get access to their Limit at 100 CP, which burns the whole meter, so 200 CP is useless, start them at 50 CP, which has the added benefit of giving them a few lower-end CP moves from turn 1, which they have to decide is better to use right away or wait for their 100 CP Limit. It's very true to in-game and I really like this interp.

For unique Limit meters like Terra and Goto, it seems fair enough to let them start with the meter full. No one else in the cast has access to these Limit meters, so its reflective of their uniqueness. I generally allow a lot of things if it reflects uniqueness, like Throw/Mystic granting item use. And unlike a cast-wide Limit mechanic that would completely throw off averages, a single PC unique meter seems fairly representative of the PC. It -might- be worth re-examining this view for unique Limit meters that are extremely hard to fill. Goto's is pretty much the very edge of what I'd consider 'reasonable to fill for a boss fight'.

For FF8, I personally would view them as starting Silenced/Blinded with lowered HP and first-or-second-turn access to their Limits. It makes the cast a lot more interesting to me, but since no one else in the DL views it this way, it makes it so I can't vote or join the discussion, so I just go with the more standard view to avoid outlier status.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I really don't tihnk letting come in with low HP, etc., is an especially good idea. Making limits easier to access like that will have a profound effect on the FF8 damage average, pretty much meaning they can only win by getting a limit. This would turn FF8 into a quickdraw cast, "come in with low HP and hope to OHKO before getting OHKOed back" which is pretty lame.

Allowing pre-battle buffs seems like it might have a weird effect on some other casts. Set up a bunch of buffs before engaging an enemy in Xenoblade? (Okay, this doesn't usually work in boss fights.) Set up buffs from long range in an SRPG? I dunno.

[Dhyerwolf]

No way should Goto start with a full GP bar. The GP bar is not a positive in game, it's a negative (Goto gets one passable damage move and it requires 4 uses of another bad move first. This is exactly the limit we should be punishing). In the spirit of preparation...no one would bother to do any preparation with Goto because of how bad he is. He is uniquely bad in game and that should be the reflection.

Pyro, for L2/L3 do you mean 50% of the starting bar or 50% of max HP taken (Since 50% of the starting bar in L2 at least does take a good bit of damage to get filled up)? I'm also assuming that you allow FE 10 Laguz to start with a bar of 15 but untransformed, right? (I allow 15 but transformed since at endgame you are basically transforming in a turn before any enemies can act and should never be seeing a Laguz have to take an enemy's attack unshifted). Not to mention that otherwise basically makes their matches all boil down to "Are you faster than average speed so you can hit the Laguz before the transformation" given how they'll usually get doubled and die in any division above Light.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I do have to agree that the DL has enough things which arbitrarily reward being on the right side of average speed without also making it the difference between winning and losing against FE10 laguz 99% of the time.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I really don't tihnk letting come in with low HP, etc., is an especially good idea. Making limits easier to access like that will have a profound effect on the FF8 damage average, pretty much meaning they can only win by getting a limit. This would turn FF8 into a quickdraw cast, "come in with low HP and hope to OHKO before getting OHKOed back" which is pretty lame.

Allowing pre-battle buffs seems like it might have a weird effect on some other casts. Set up a bunch of buffs before engaging an enemy in Xenoblade? (Okay, this doesn't usually work in boss fights.) Set up buffs from long range in an SRPG? I dunno.

The FF8 cast is already pretty lame from what I've seen, but at least focusing them around their limits shows off their one unique attribute. Everyone being a glass cannon of sorts is interesting. The girls all can do more than just damage with their Limits too, so I don't mind the shift from one flavor of lame to another. And again, I'm not bothering voting this way because outlier status makes for boring DL fight discussion. Instead it just becomes an interp debate repeated ad nauseum. That's what -this- topic is for!

Pre-battle buffs are actually something I'm in favor of. Celes can totally start a battle in FF6 with Vanish, and there's definitely times in FF6 where it'd be a smart move, so I'm fine with that translating into the DL. Your XB and SRPG examples don't sound horrible off hand, but I admit I haven't looked into what all that would do those respective casts, so it's definitely something I could be swayed upon.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The skillset elements of limits all ends up fairly pointless as generally speaking an FF8 limit will OHKO an opponent if it goes off. I agree that FF8 is not a terribly exciting cast, but the question to the opponent of "can you dodge their limit while outslugging their physicals" is at least somewhat interesting, while "do you have above average speed" is not. You actually create less difference between FF8 PCs this way; in particular you largely negate the advantage of Squall's auto-hit auto-crit physical.

I suppose that, to get the difference back, you could send the raise the damage average so high that only the more damaging limits can reliably KO (Squall and Zell, plus Rinoa if you allow her to hold magic for Angel Wing purposes) and create a difference that way, but this just weakens them further and probably isn't justifiable. Although it probably makes Irvine clearly the worst dueller (or Selphie)... wait why am I opposed to this. Jokes aside, I am still opposed. <_<

[Dhyerwolf]

Well, I would say if they can limit turn 1, then we know how the 3 turn average will start looking. Of course, I think that the Djinn's post on the FF 8 topic is way, way, way too nice on the damage average since Squall and Rinoa are listed at a quarter of their actual average. Looks like the kill point ends up at 28,000K with the following

Squall: ~21,000 average
Rinoa: ~13,800 average
Zell-Irvine: ~12,000
Quistis: 6,800
Selphie: 1,200

[SnowFire]

More random ramblings!  they are random.

I suppose one addition: I don't like interps that actually make a cast weaker than they 'should' be because their cool tricks are now baked into the damage average.  For example, if I let FFX characters start with half Overdrive per Pyro, characters access it so fast that there's a strong argument they should be baked in with some kind of 3-turn damage average.  Using the non-HP subject weapons and ignoring recharge times, some quick math ended up with a killpoint of ~36800 over a 3-turn average.  This makes characters hugely dependent on their overdrives for actually dealing damage, so suck it, Lulu.  (It'd be even higher if you tossed Kimahri too.)

For giggles, if you let everyone walk in with full Overdrive rather than half including Aeons, the killpoint is now 46500 (3 Overdrives for Yuna!!1!)

So yeah, re Dhyer's comments, assuming no starting gauge for LoD characters makes it more sane to use a lower damage average for them and not to have to futz with their expected defense.  Don't get me wrong, I can totally see the consistency argument for letting characters grind it up pre-boss like G3 SP, but I feel it'd actually weaken the cast, so eh, would rather avoid that then.  (I might also be swayed by spending Grandia 3 SP at a solid clip in boss fights without incident, while I also practically ignored Dragoon form in LoD boss fights.  stupid Dragoon additions, I could never get them to work right, certainly not anywhere near the 5-press assumption in the stat topic.)

On Trails: Flicker & Smoke Cannon are still just fine on 100 CP, and those two are memorable for not sucking, yes!  Oliver's healing always struck me in-game as worse than just using an item if you want instant healing, but that's true of a lot of the DL, so oh well, can't complain that it translates well.  Anyway, I meant more the status magic: Anti-Sept is seriously badass 100% Mute and Chaos Brand is pretty darn good in the DL too.  (You rarely notice in-game because Trails randoms aren't usually scary, but they'd be great if they were.)  But whatever, Cait Sith isn't uniquely good at using Transform materia either but he gets it legally and the rest of FF7 doesn't.

Speaking of FF7, I should have been more precise.  "Half-full limit, OR 50% max HP worth of damage," a distinction that worked in my head (and one I had before I saw your clarifying remark to Pyro!).  This means that L3 limits are basically very rare and L4's don't really happen.  However L1 limits are damn near impossible to dodge, yes, which they kind of are in-game if you keep them set (an effective if not very cool strategy).

For G3, if Dhyer is worried about Ulf, force him to have like a 2-star Dynamite Rush, I certainly won't complain as that's accurate to in-game.

As a brief side comment apropros of nothing on Tactics Ogre: I don't feel *too* sorry for the mages in the stat topic, as Elf's assumptions were about as favorable as possible to mages ignoring the crippling DL-MP problems.  Forging mage weapons both requires rare drops and doesn't do very much for their damage, while forging +1 weapons for the fighters is totally awesome and a big boost to their damage.  Additionally the level assumption on the low side punishes fighter damage more than mage damage, I want to say, and aside from the relative damage boost vs. the cast, the fighters would appreciate more TP to fuel their specials too.

[Fudozukushi]

No item or piece of equipment in TotA has any affect on Overlimit.  Only the Grade Shop and certain titles do.  So unless "stand still 15 seconds outside battle to gain one point of Overlimit out of a hundred" is relevant...

[Talaysen]

I tend to stick with half limit gauges/values IF they can be stored between battles.  If they can't, they start at whatever they start at in-game (usually 0).  For TRPGs that have a gauge that starts at 0, they still start at 0.  Sorry, but fights start at turn 1 in the DL.  If there was some special reason that you couldn't do anything turn 1 (like maybe the game doesn't let you attack on turn 1 because that's just part of the battle system), then I would consider it, but not being in range isn't good enough for me.

As for averages, these days I've been using halfway between a three turn average that uses only skills usable 3+ times and a three turn average that burns everything possible.  I considered some scaling average that went beyond three turns (and weighted later turn damages lower than shorter turn damages), but I never fleshed it out.  I really don't like how arbitrary that 3 turn cutoff is.

For limits, that means anything that can come out in three turns is factored in and not if it takes longer than that.  Also, only limits that accumulate SOLELY through that person's actions are considered.  FF7 and FF8 limits require being attacked, so they are not put into averages.

For Valkyrie Profile, I don't allow energy storing.  PWS can happen when PCs face bosses under my views anyway, so they're still relevant.  I don't think I factor them into averages since they're so conditional (except for people who can do them alone).

Pre-battle preparation came up.  At the moment, I don't allow it, but the consequences of doing so are interesting.  There's also the difference of whether or not the preparation is "unique".  Celes casting Vanish is pretty unique, but FF8 characters starting at low HP is not.  Should this matter?  I'm unsure.