Author Topic: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.  (Read 2388 times)

superaielman

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 Ghaleon>Hugo
Orgulla>TL
Yuna>Red Fiend
Zophar>Reicher

Chris>Lyon
Celes>Layna
Ryu>Lulu
Killer>Rameriz

Rune>Grunzford
Marle>Steiner
Yosuke>Alfina
Rei>Kresnik

Tear 4, Roger 3
Ulrika>Argilla
Gafgarion>Ramza
Lilina 3, Tony 2

Doll>Millie
Alfred>Spiritmaster
Alenia>Jogurt
Onix>Rahal


Godlike:

Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3)
Alternis Dim (BD) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT)
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3)

High Heavy:

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4)
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3)
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG)

Low Heavy:

Croco (SMRPG) vs Demi (PS4)
Fujin (FF8) vs Sofia (DQ4)
Sharon (LoL2) vs Sceptile (PKMN)
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG)

Middle:

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2)
Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2)
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG)

Shame:

Liz (WA2) vs Castform (PKMN)
Paula (EB) vs Garland (FF1)
Guido (G1) vs Nina (BoF3)
Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 04:30:37 PM by superaielman »
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

superaielman

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2015, 01:24:34 PM »
Godlike:

Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3)- Don't remember Melc Crystals well enough to say here.
Alternis Dim (BD) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)-E: Eh sure.
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT)- *wince*
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3)-This merits no comment.

High Heavy:

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4)- Going with my 'fuck off forever BM, you are a scrub' kneejerk.
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs Odd Eye (SF2)- Should one round. Was going to vote the other way, but the odds of sleep offset Jowy's chances to evade I'd think.
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3)- Gets a turn I'd think.
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG)- Raquel is durable against physicals but that is a fucking lot of turns to give up to one person. Citan's like five times her base speed after haste? It is nuts.

Low Heavy:

Croco (SMRPG) vs Demi (PS4)- Croco sucked real bad from what I remember.
Fujin (FF8) vs Sofia (DQ4)- Sai lock. Swordedge armor could annoy Fujin but it's not enough offhand.
Sharon (LoL2) vs Sceptile (PKMN)- E: Evasion. That does give Sceptile some problems if Sharon can build 100 AP in a round. I don't especially respect the charm argument, but evasion against an attack with some innate inaccurately does create problems.
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG)- Surely. Elly sucked against physicals, not something you want against a swordmaster.

Middle:

Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2)- Sigh. Rena's healing is garbage. She can buff haste, buff defense and doesn't have to worry about counters... but I doubt she has the resources to outlast Virion.
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG)- No idea, not willing to numbercrunch for this slapfight. Probably Nowi though.  You suck, Mario.

Shame:

Guido (G1) vs Nina (BoF3)- Guido is really fucking bad.
Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7)- Tail up, bitches.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 04:45:17 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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Random Consonant

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2015, 04:01:53 PM »
Godlike:

Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3) - When in doubt, trust Snow.
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT)
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3) - Probably.

High Heavy:

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4) - While I'm kind of loathe to hype BM swapping for a Mage's Hat for more MAtk as ever mattering, Dark x4 does 1.45 total and Wren's only got 1.48 so it's not like he's got that much further to go, and since BM goes second anyways he may as well.  (And if you throw out Merchant he may not even have to.)
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs Odd Eye (SF2) - probably
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3) - I'd think so.
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG) - e: yeah the more I think about it the more I think Tide is surely right here.

Low Heavy:

Croco (SMRPG) vs Demi (PS4)
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG) - Mia does 0.81 to me on a double, Elly is marginally above that against physicals.  If you toss out non-royal laguz or see them as fullshifted this isn't even that close.

Middle:

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2)
Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2)
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG)

Shame:

Liz (WA2) vs Castform (PKMN)
Paula (EB) vs Garland (FF1)
Guido (G1) vs Nina (BoF3) - surely
Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7) - well then
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 04:28:24 AM by Random Consonant »

Pyro

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2015, 06:29:25 PM »
Godlike:

Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3): Fought before the Time Dolphin is a good tiebreak!
Alternis Dim (BD) vs Jenna Angel (DDS): Not sure here.
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT):  : Generally a superior boss.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3): Kaiser would do it I'm sure.

High Heavy:

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4): Oh right, his magics ignored Barrier's Mdef increase.
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs Odd Eye (SF2): One-shots? One shots, sure.
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3):
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG): Yeah Citan is 160% and Raquel is only 66%? So if he uses Senki he will get three MORE turns before Raquel gets her FIRST. And then 5 turns before her second turn (3 if Raquel uses a physical attack).
That's an awful lot of turns. Normally Red Zone might get some hype here, but Citan can just get right around that by storing AP...
But Raquel has a 17% counter rate, 25% blocker rate, and a 10% critical rate... she can double the counter and crit rate with the alternative weapon (Morrigan Brand?)... Combine that with the fact that she'll use Dragon Edge first turn (or just physically attack if Citan tries to store up AP) and Citan has a lot of attacks to get through Raquel's... 2.13 PCHP physical durability. What's more, the FP gained from stuff like that would be detrimental to Citan...

So assuming Citan 4HKOs Raquel, that would mean he'd need, what? 6 attacks to finish her with the Dragon Edge healing? And he'd need to store up AP, reducing his longer term damage output? And... yeah I'll come back to this but Raquel may actually be able to take this...

Low Heavy:

Croco (SMRPG) vs Demi (PS4)
Fujin (FF8) vs Sofia (DQ4)
Sharon (LoL2) vs Sceptile (PKMN)
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG): I think Mia 10's damage is good enough for this? Could she do 83% PCHP damage in a turn? Actually probably not.

Middle:

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2): Zzzz
Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1): Lean Tifa, as Flay's damage over multiple hits thing isn't a good power to rely upon vs FF7 limits.
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2)
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG)

Shame:

Liz (WA2) vs Castform (PKMN)
Paula (EB) vs Garland (FF1)
Guido (G1) vs Nina (BoF3)
Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7)

Tide

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2015, 10:50:06 PM »
Godlike:
Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3) zzz. Don't really care about this - someone hash it out.

High Heavy:
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3) - If I finish SH3 before this closes, I'll vote >_>. Though I am interested in hearing why Shania wins. She doesn't feel that strong in game.
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG) - Breaking this down below. Main reason I'm voting anyway.

Low Heavy:
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG) - XG weapon applying sleep even when it misses *psyduck*. That pretty much forces Mia to one round and she will need a turn 1 crit which I don't think she gets.

Middle:
Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2) - Strong kneejerk. Brad isn't that good.
Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1) - Kneejerk. I haven't calculated it, but feels like Flay may be able to avoid a limit that directly KOs him.
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG)

Shame:
Liz (WA2) vs Castform (PKMN) - D: Wtf is this BS.
Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7) - TF7 Guard Scorpion for Not Light.


Alrght so!
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG) - Math Version
First, some relative numbers straight from the stat topics.

Citan has 1.21 the HP average. This is the only thing that matters for his durability due to the ITD nature of the Princess Sabre. Translating this to the WA4 average means he has about 24800 HP. Raquel definitely 2HKOs.

Raquel takes only 0.47x physical damage. Translating this to XG means she has about 7117 HP if you use the Non-Yameki average. Citan 4HKOs in this case.

Of other things of note, Raquel has a notable amount of evasion and the always present blocker. This gives her an effective evade rate of about 60%. Citan does not have any notable evade and his accuracy is negligibly above average. Also, Raquel has a counter rate of about 17%. For the sake of ease, say this is 20%. Note that due to Hi-Counter, if Raquel counter crits, she'll OHKO him (Hi-Counter makes counter crits do 2.25x normal damage). A single counter does 90% of his HP. This is important because it means it takes Citan two of his turns to heal away the damage and if the counter occurs on the second to last turn or the last turn before Raquel, he pretty much loses.

Now the fun part: Citan is 1.68x average speed. Raquel is 0.67x average speed. In short, he actually 10-4s on base. After Haste, he 5-1s. Although he greatly outspeeds her, because she's so physically tanky, he actually needs all the turns. And even then you have to see a number of things working out.

Citan has two options. He can either Haste out of the gate, or delay the Haste until after Raquel's first turn. Raquel wins if she ever gets a turn with 25 FP, so there's actually an active timer for him to win. Also, every time Raquel evades, she gains a massive 12 FP. So he can't afford that many turns, which is an issue since her evade is good.

Hasting first:
If Citan Hastes first, the turn order looks like this:

Citan (59.52 CT Haste)
Citan (89.28 CT)
Citan (119.05 CT)
Citan (148.81 CT)
Raquel (149.25 CT)
Citan (178.57 CT)
Citan (208.33 CT)
Citan (238.10 CT)
Citan (267.86 CT)
Citan (297.62 CT)
Raquel (298.51 CT)

So Citan has 8 attacks. If you take Raquel's evade as stated, he actually only hits 3 times, which is not enough. It gets worse though. Because of Dragon Edge, the first three turns he gets are almost superfluous. Raquel most likely will dodge at least once, so two of those attacks may hit. This won't give her enough FP (she'll be at 20 FP (12 from dodge + 4 from each attack hit), but she can Dragon Edge and recover about 50% of her HP, which is basically all of his damage. At this point, Citan has 5 turns and if he decides to heal first, he actually only gets 4 turns, of which all 4 attacks must hit. If you assume her effective evade is only 33%, this come out to 18.97% (0.66^4). If he uses all 5 turns to attack, he cannot have any attack result in a counter and 4 of those attacks must hit. This come out to 14.36% ((Chance of hitting^4 * Change to miss *5 + Chance to hit^5) * Chance for No Counter^5 ).

Hasting after Raquel:
This is generally not a good idea. Although it delays Raquel's FP gain, Citan's giving up too many turns himself, which he cannot spare. Turn order looks like this:

Citan (59.52 CT)
Citan (119.05 CT)
Raquel (149.25 CT)
Citan (178.57 CT, Haste)
Citan (208.33 CT)
Citan (238.10 CT)
Citan (267.86 CT)
Citan (297.62 CT)
Raquel (298.51 CT)

Similar to above, Citan cannot do much with the first two turns. If he attacks, Raquel just Dragon Edge's him. If he decides to mess around with shields and his offense boost spell, than Raquel can just Moonlight. This leaves him in the same position as above - needing all 4 attacks to hit in 4 turns only.

In short, Citan only has a chance of winning this if you view Raquel's evade as being much worse. Even after nearly slashing her stated evade by half, he can only get the kill a little under 20% of time. Let this be a lesson: Going physical against Raquel = Laggy approved poor life decision. EDIT: And just like in-game, Raquel slays the human Ragu
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 02:11:39 AM by Tide »
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2015, 12:55:08 AM »
Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3) - Given my views, I think this is right.
Alternis Dim (BD) vs Jenna Angel (DDS) - At the absolute worst, Alternis has the durability to survive two Bhairavas.
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT) - Lavos, on the other hand, doesn't have the durability to survive a Lady turn.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3) - Aw damn. Ryu3 post-transform DEFINITELY can survive Nobutsuna's Brave barrage and... well... pretty much anything he can do. Tough luck.

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4) - Beyond a Mage's Hat, Black Mage can also equip an Amulet and a second Poison Rod to ensure he can one-round Wren even after factoring in the offense twinking into averages. Wren really wishes he didn't hit the wrong defensive stat with Posibolt.
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs Odd Eye (SF2) - I'm fairly sure I don't see Odd Eye as durable enough to survive a Hungry Fiend.
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3) - The way I take FE13 damage, Lucina deals 1.1 PC HP on her doubled string. Shania has 1.08 pdur. Yeah. And I honestly don't care for the holistics.
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG) - EDIT: I love you, Tide.

Croco (SMRPG) vs Demi (PS4) - Yeah.
Fujin (FF8) vs Sofia (DQ4) - Sai.
Sharon (LoL2) vs Sceptile (PKMN) - Sceptile is indeed faster and should be able to chip away from Sharon's danger range after Agility. It doesn't help that her damage is so backloaded. She could have a shot with Charm, but I'm not sure how good that is and I tend to kneejerk against Legaia 2 art accuracy. Could be argued.
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG) - Vantage. FE9 Mia still manages to 3HKO average and a double+opening Vantage attack certainly will do Elly in. Sounds like FE10 Mia, hilariously, loses.

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2) - I think this may be right even without Sleep Assault? Brad only 3HKOs average without the really big guns and Raynie should be able to avoid Boost Railgun range.
Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1) - Flay can survive a L2, methinks, and may as well be able to chip through that. L1s don't scare him in the slightest.
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2) - I'm inclined to think super's right. If Rena's healing was at least close to full, I think she might pull this off, but at worst she bites it to two Killer crits in a row even ignoring healing and even Protect turn one might not be enough to stave off the initial Brave Bow 2HKO. I'd be more inclined to buy off the Rena hype if her healing was more like 75% mHP instead of the sub-60% it is.
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG) - EDIT: 51% damage to average with Ultra Jump? Mario, you suck.

Liz (WA2) vs Castform (PKMN) - Castform should 3HKO Liz, who can uh only 3HKO back with an attack that rips off 1/4 off his already terrible HP. Yeah, no.
Paula (EB) vs Garland (FF1) - Oh god Garland.
Guido (G1) vs Nina Wyndia (BoF3) - Yeah, outslugs. Hooray.
Igglanova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7) - EDIT: forgot Tail Laser. =(
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 06:30:33 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 03:06:15 AM »
Godlike:

Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3)- While I'm not 100% sure since I'm not looking this too indepth lets compare and contrast:
Emelious: 64,000 HP, starts FAAAAAAAST, hits hard no matter what
Melc Crystals: 32,000 HP (and not...so far before Emelious time wise), starts slow, hits hard when slow, not as hard when fast.

Truth to be, my gut is that Emelious has a pretty good edge here. Melc Crystals aren't exactly high on HP where truth be told, considering how quickly most of Emo's damage will come it, it may not get a turn (especially considering that literally all of Emo's damage will be quicker).
Alternis Dim (BD) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)- Yeah, he probably can tank 2 of the big damage moves
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT)
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3)

High Heavy:

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4)- Play around for more Magic
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs Odd Eye (SF2)- No real idea on OE's durability.
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3)- Lucina does like 85% damage to me, so no OHKO. I would say though Snow, if it's that close, FE 13 average enemy defense has very good reasons for being higher, and even increasing all defenses by 1 point will probably then put Lucina under the kill point (let alone the 3 extra points I would give it. For fighters, defense before the true final map is irrelevant given that they get a massive 70% damage boost for just that one map).
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG)

Low Heavy:

Croco (SMRPG) vs Demi (PS4)
Fujin (FF8) vs Sofia (DQ4)
Sharon (LoL2) vs Sceptile (PKMN)- Not seeing this one. First off, straight up, Sharon can get over 30% evasion at minimum (She has an equip for 20% and equip for 10% and she has the best evasion to start with). 70 % hit rate (at best) x 70% hit rate=49% chance at best to hit twice in a row means that Sceptile needs 3 hits on average to land two. Also she generates 100 AP a round, which means that her second attack will be a Mystic Arte and Sceptile is dead. That's assuming that Sceptile 2HKOs, which means that her defense needs to make her take more than 10% more in physical damage (which it well may, be it may not. I don't remember L2 defenses being super potent except when the curve was made really wide (I will note that also to 2HKO, you definitely will need to count crits in damage per attack, but not accuracy). Either way, since Sceptile needs a stat check that is below 50% to win, Sharon wins more often than not.
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG)

Middle:

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2)
Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2)
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG)- Mario has borderline 2HKO damage, and based on views, Nowi appears to have 2.15 to 2.3 Mdur, so Mario definitely 5HKOs by the number in either FE topic. This of course, if not relevant is he isn't countered. My gut is...an attack that ends up in a semi short range position by animation in order to hit is...probably not avoiding counters. I'm okay with this one going either wya though.

Shame:
Paula (EB) vs Garland (FF1)- Is Garland really that bad?
Guido (G1) vs Nina (BoF3)
Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7)
...into the nightfall.

SnowFire

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 03:34:50 AM »
Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3)
Emelious is somewhat tougher, sure, but the Crystals are crazy damaging.  Emelious has a bit of an ST focus too.  Could be convinced otherwise by math, but this works for now.
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT)
MT damage.  I'm inclined to allow the Lavos formchain these days and Lady should still be good here.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3)
I prefer not to vote BoF3, but are people hyping a Ryu OHKO here or something?  Kamiizumi is basically a Bluelike as far as I'm concerned, and his Know Thine Enemy counter is grotesque, grotesque overkill even on *full defense twinked knight*, at least on Hard.  (This is including stuff like Heike Gloves & Heike Armor to go with the dual shields, at least fort he C5/C6 versions.)  So this seems like it'd be at least worthy of some comment.  Normal C3 form appears to "only" be 3.34 PCHP, but can even the mighty Ryu tank that if he doesn't OHKO?


High Heavy:

Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3)
Lucina needs an Aether to trigger to kill Shania, but I'm willing to give it to her (she has 75% odds of this happening over 4 hits, that's "turn 1", for all that I amp the damage average up a tad when considering this).  More generally, let's say Aether doesn't trigger: Shania doesn't even have a guaranteed win?  Lucina might evade if she #YOLOs damage in, and if she uses Sanlitto Bell + healing first, aside from being laggy, Lucina gets another bite at the apple to get more Aether triggers.  The odds of Shania losing if she gets a turn are not high, but they're there, which pushes Lucina's overall win odds up even further.  EDIT: Although I suppose Sanlitto Bell stopping Lucina from doubling would screw that over so never mind, right.  Still voting for Lucina off the turn 1 Aether although the point that SH3 speed is random itself is fair and thus Shania might go first naturally sometimes.

Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG)
No Yamikei in the averages + seeing XG deathblows as basically ignoring all but the most potent evasion means that Citan should be able to handle this, I suspect.  It is a fun match! 
EDIT: On closer examination, Citan misses the 4HKO, which is pretty important here.  Never mind, Blocker's enough here even if the normal evade isn't too helpful.

Low Heavy:

Fujin (FF8) vs Sofia (DQ4)
Well if super is voting this way.
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG)
Close but no cigar, Mia.  EDIT: Oh right, Mia9 wins this, dur.

Middle:

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2)
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2)
Brave weapons are quite expensive, so I'd only let Virion walk in with one.  And he'd certainly break it before running out Rena's MP.  I guess you could hype Virion CTB doubles due to Rena's slow casting time, but he'd need at least 2 to win before his bow breaks, and I doubt it.

Shame:

Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7) I'll buy Jo'ou's hype.  (The one character in PS4 I vote, hooray.)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 06:22:59 PM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 06:30:21 AM »
Godlike:

Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3): For sake of argument I'm going to take these two exactly how they appear in game, multiple parts and all. Emelious can probably one-round one of the golem's arms, though not the body. Melc Crystals will respond with Hellmixer + Hellburner. This... is probably enough to kill the sword, but not Emelious himself. Sword's probably worth killing, it does so much damage. So yeah, that. Emelious goes again, possibly getting two turns with his body now... but with the lower damage, even with some MT from the first form, I don't think he can kill a second arm. So yeah the damage repeats and Emelious' next turn will be even worse, kill one arm or main body... but I think he still barely dies regardless. It is close. To make matters worse I'm certainly more inclined to hold Emelious to one part than Melc, and that completely screws him over if so, because Hellmixer becomes that much more potent.

For Dhyer, damage absolutely does rise a fair bit between Melc Crystals and Emelious (the stat topic entries say 2300 -> 4000, which is certainly possible). There are two very long dungeons between them (probably around 25% of the game), and with the eggs you get in the first one, there is a very good chance you gain some high-level spells between them too, as well as Ulf's more damaging techs.

Alternis Dim (BD) vs Jenna Angel (DDS): Uh Alternis very easily survives one shot of Jenna bullshit. Two is debatable. However I don't care much for HP buffering.
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT): Yeah probably.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3): For Snowfire, Kaiser Ryu "cuts physicals by 222" in a game where average HP is 224. This is actually very far beyond two-shield knight in defence, who "only" cuts physical by 1.5x what is needed to null average. You do not kill Ryu with defence-subject physicals, and Kamiizumi's Atk, while good, isn't -that- exceptional anyway (most of his overkill comes from the multiplier on his counters which is a multiplier AFTER defence).

High Heavy:

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4): Sigh.
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs Odd Eye (SF2): Jowy's defence really isn't that special, mostly offsets his HP. So Odd Eye should one-round. Does Hungry Friend OHKO first? Do I have any clue how I see Odd Eye HP these days? what is support credit how do I uguu.
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3): Shania should tank a Lucina turn. After that she uses Sanlittobell, which gives her 166% speed and thus the next turn, which she uses to heal. Lucina's now up against someone who cuts physicals by 63%, I don't think any amount of Aether hype is letting her OHKO ever again. (Also if you're the type to let speed buffs affect such things, Lucina just stopped doubling.) So yeah, Lucina is totally fucked if Shania gets a turn. You could certainly hype Aether giving her the one-round, but I'm not inclined to respect it that much myself. If you want to play the odds, Shania has a pretty good chance to go first here which should probably offset Aether chances.
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG): Tide analysis covers the day, I see no flaws here. I use a non-Kokei damage average, which helps Citan a bit, but shouldn't make the difference, especially since I probably also deny Citan the small atk boost of his final sword which has literally zero in-game use.

Low Heavy:

Croco (SMRPG) vs Demi (PS4): Uh, very much opposite ends of this division.
Fujin (FF8) vs Sofia (DQ4): Surely faster, lands some status or other, or just HP-locks with Sai.
Sharon (LoL2) vs Sceptile (PKMN): Sceptile is faster. If he 2HKOs, he just wins, and without knowing how good Legaia 2 MDef is this is hard to say. But... if he only 3HKOs, let's take a look at what happens. He'll go first, and needs to dodge a limit since Sharon will use her first turn to get to 100 AP. Of course, Sharon's own damage isn't very good, and she risks running right into Overgrow which would allow the 2HKO to occur. Granted, Sceptile's draining will trigger the limit after two uses, so he can't play around with that as well as usual to ensure he sees a limit of his own, and Sharon is fast enough that he can't go crazy with doubleturns like he often can. I do think the fight favours Sharon if Sceptile doesn't 2HKO... but there's a pretty good chance he does (47.5% to average) and Sceptile's odds are a hell of a lot better if that judgement call goes against him than vice versa, which makes me favour him.
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG): Well, the form with functional Vantage should take this, despite being worse overall? Or is it? Wonder how often this sort of thing comes up. Abstain for now...

Middle:

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2): Not sure how I feel about RH sleep, or more generally about switch. But... probably.
Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1): Tifa needs a L2 limit, and Flay can dodge that. Timed cards are bad here, but buff, Big Impact, Screwdriver works.
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2): Sorta confused by the Virion votes? If he 2HKOs it's baaarely, and Fairy Heal is dirt cheap (35 shots), easily outlasting a brave weapon as noted (and Virion can't possibly heal-lock with anything else). Protection probably wards off the 2HKO to boot. Killer crits scare nothing, half of a Brave weapon at base yeah whatever.
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG): Don't see why Mario wouldn't be counterable, he's all ST (or focused stuff, yeah not hyping that as avoiding counters).

Shame:

Liz (WA2) vs Castform (PKMN): Liz is like half PCHP, but he can 2HKO Castform with bombs, and goes first. So... does one Castform turn + two self-damages kill Liz? Yeah, no. Should note that by the listed HP in the stat topic, Liz will miss the 2HKO, but I see those figures as too high (twinked for max HP Plus is too much for me, since you can permanently miss said boosts).
Guido (G1) vs Nina (BoF3): Thank goodness, Guido gets someone competent.
Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7): TAIL LASER is MT, and there's no way in hell I don't see Igglanova's spawns falling for "attack when the tail is up!"

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SnowFire

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 07:55:07 AM »
FWIW Elf, not sure how much I'd antihype full tank knight.  She takes physical damage that outright OHKOs non-shield characters and is a high 2HKO to most characters with a shield and outright nulls it.  Kamiizumi is pretty notable as one of the only enemies in the game that can break Knight's defense with physicals without buffing or debuffing.  (Wish it was easier to load up old saves and check out Normal mode Kamiizumi in earlier chapters, but alas.)  Hence I'd be strongly inclined to let him be one of the rare characters who can bust through super-physical tanks with high subtractive defense in the DL (e.g. Caineghis, etc.).  Obviously it might not matter if Kaiser's defense is even more ludicrous, but still, it's pretty crazy.

Good point about Shania possibly going first though, that's something that always annoyed me about the DL for all that I know why the assumption that speed is perfectly constant is usually done when for some games that totally isn't true.

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2015, 02:35:56 PM »
Quote
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3): For Snowfire, Kaiser Ryu "cuts physicals by 222" in a game where average HP is 224. This is actually very far beyond two-shield knight in defence, who "only" cuts physical by 1.5x what is needed to null average. You do not kill Ryu with defence-subject physicals, and Kamiizumi's Atk, while good, isn't -that- exceptional anyway (most of his overkill comes from the multiplier on his counters which is a multiplier AFTER defence).

In fairness, BoF3 enemy physicals all have an ITD component (that for the major bosses is like ~1/4 of the damage)?.

Also it's kind of irelevant. If Kamizuumi doesn't outright OHKO Ryu3's dragon forms on his regular physical, Ryu3 just laughs, throws up some cheap-but-damaging dragon, and lets Kamiizumi kill him as many times as needed while just re-transforming as he needs to.

And I think BoF3 EX-turns actually ignore counter-type moves that were used by the enemy during the regular round? Not sure if that deserves credit but it is rather interesting.

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2015, 05:41:32 PM »
Hey, I wasn't antihyping knight defence, hence the quote marks! Just it's possible to go past that, and again, I don't think Kamiizumi's Atk is that exceptional. Pyro does raise a point about Ryu3's defence being less perfect and that does put a spanner into things a bit though. The cheap dragon form thing is a bit dicy because Kamiizumi can counter to defeat the dragon and then kill Ryu. So Ryu does need to make sure he can survive any counters, or that he'll doubleturn after them.

Thinking on it, his best strategy is to go Warrior. If Kamiizumi wastes turns killing him, no big. He uses Focus twice, then uses Aura for 1900 damage, which could OHKO depending on the damage average used. But even if it doesn't, Kamiizumi needs to spam counters to kill Ryu at this point (as per above), so Ryu just waits for a doubleturn (or arguably is getting them constantly depending on how you take Ex Turns) and since he's over +2 SD he shouldn't have trouble getting this, and then just attacks and retransforms on a double.

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SnowFire

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2015, 06:22:07 PM »
Checking some math, on second thought, going with Raquel after all.  Even assuming Raquel's evasion is only meaningful against the regular attack part of Citan's string (but assuming Blocker works as advertised), Citan barely misses the 4HKO if I understand Elf's numbers, and he definitely misses the 4HKO if some of his combo is evaded (even though it's usually a negligible amount).  If Blocker doesn't trigger in his initial 3 turns post-Haste, then Dragon Edge healing won't be full, but that isn't guaranteed.  If Blocker triggers in the initial turn, he needs all 5 turns to finish his 5HKO with no Blocker; if Blocker didn't trigger in the initial flurry and Raquel is slightly low on life, then Citan needs Blocker to not trigger twice.  This might push things to coin-flip levels, but the fact Raquel can randomly get a Hi-Counter and win, or get Blocker on Citan just before her own turn and get some Retaliate damage, makes me inclined to tiebreak for her after all.  Weird!

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2015, 06:30:04 PM »
High Heavy:

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4): :-/
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3):

Middle:

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2): Raynie is more solid all around

Shame:

Liz (WA2) vs Castform (PKMN): See DHE
Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7): Guard Stance

Pyro

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2015, 08:44:30 PM »
kamizuumi death counters do eat his turn.

Round 1
Ryu transforms
Kami attacks

(EX Turn if applicable):
(Ryu does something to his liking, whether physical, magic, breath, etc.)

Round 2
Kami: counter stance
Ryu: Smash (untransformed by counter)

Round 1 again, albeit with Ryu having a bit less AP.

also, let us say that Ryu 'only' thirds damage in his tanker forms. They also have 200% + hp. He can tank a kamizuumi thwack AND a know thine enemy... And then he can just transform and do it again.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 10:53:30 PM by Pyro »

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2015, 12:22:29 AM »
Godlike:

Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3)- S..ure?
Alternis Dim (BD) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)- HP Buffering, Jenna is a monster, etc.
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT)
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3)

High Heavy:

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4)
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs Odd Eye (SF2)- huh, no vote.  I need to dig up a ShF2 save sometime.
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3)
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG)

Low Heavy:

Croco (SMRPG) vs Demi (PS4)
Fujin (FF8) vs Sofia (DQ4)
Sharon (LoL2) vs Sceptile (PKMN)- Huh.  Sceptile somewhat faster than memory would rate him.  Neat.
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG)

Middle:

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2)
Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2)
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG)

Shame:

Liz (WA2) vs Castform (PKMN)
Paula (EB) vs Garland (FF1)- I... huh, we don't technically have Garland numbers.  But I'm pretty sure Garland will get 2HKOed here and roughly 3-4HKO back.
Guido (G1) vs Nina (BoF3)
Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7)- IT'LL COUNTERATTACK WITH ITS LASER
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 02:31:43 AM by Cmdr_King »
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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2015, 01:08:55 AM »
There were some Garland numbers in chat back during Super's earlier Puny Cup. 
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=6428.0

Basically: He's a little wacky since returning to the inn to heal up isn't something you'd likely do, so your actual HP is probably quite a bit less than your max HP, but it'd be really wrong to *reward* Garland for sucking so badly you don't need to heal, so best to use the max HP values for level 2 or 3.  He has either a high 4HKO or a low 3HKO.  It has ~75% accuracy to the cast.  He probably has around .80-.90 PCHP (varies off what spells you bought Red Mage, etc.) since he likely is 2-rounded by your team on full offense.

Anyway that means that Garland should 2HKO Paula just based off her horrible PDurability, BUT off bad accuracy, so Paula can likely wait for a miss while healing.  (No EB, take with grain of salt, etc.)

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2015, 01:29:32 AM »
Paula had healing?
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SnowFire

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2015, 01:47:08 AM »
never mind, ignore me, was briefly confused is all!

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2015, 06:05:33 AM »
Ran some light testing on Legaia 2 Mdef. I didn't have an endgame save, but hopefully this works well enough:

--Maya (36 more Men than Sharon, almost the same at the DL average versus Sharon: 952
--Sharon: 1084

So Sharon took about 13.6% more than average. The bad for her is that this puts in the 2HKO range(factoring in crit rates, which I completely support. However, if you don't factor in crits, Sceptile looks worse and shouldn't 2HKO I think). I don't think she can shuffle around enough equips to get this to 3HKO range (assuming my Mdef numbers hold up).

There's a bunch of equips Sharon has to slightly turn the tides, but it basically boils down to this-->Turn 1 Status:

Paralysis Weapon: 2% per Normal Art, 22.5% for Super/Hyper Art. This stacks with Peach Surprise, which is 45% Charm
Slay Cutlass (Normal, 16 AP, 3 Blocks)->Rumble Spike (Normal, 36 AP, 5 Blocks)->Spike Anchor (Normal, 52 AP, 7 Blocks)->Fear Galgarin (Super, 32 AP)->Peach Surprise (Super, 8 AP). This gives a chance of 45% Charm and 43% Paralysis (Either of which at least lock down Sceptile's next turn), or about a 69% chance of getting either one.

If it's Paralysis, it does wear off when the next attack hits, so she needs to Charm. This is easy as she has 8 AP left over from the last round, so she only needs to generate 40 AP for Two Peach Surprises (70% Charm and 40% Paralysis chance). Riot Flag->Rumble Spike generates exactly 40 AP while leaving 8 blocks (the amount needed for two Peach Surprises), so that should on average leave Sceptile charmed as well.

Also, Legaia 2 AP does carry over, which means that if Sharon starts with 25 AP (25% of max), then she can use two Peach Surprises for turn 1 Charm. Alternately, the Charm weapon and Peach Surprise may stack, making it over 66.7% of getting Charm on turn 1. Of course, the bad is that Charm is not as good as I thought. It's duration is fantastic (not cancelled by damage, really long lasting), but the enemy will use it's horrible basic physical against Sharon...after it has killed literally everything else. She won't ever really see that issue in game, but it happens in the DL. It depends on what you see as Sceptile's equiv of a basic physical is. I would probably take his worst physical, in which case, he'll take several more turns to kill. Even his best default is Slam, which he'll need two shots off...and it has 75% base accuracy. That definitely won't cut it, so Charm should still win the day for Sharon.
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2015, 06:49:53 AM »
Interesting.

Sceptile can block some status , but they come at a 9% cut to its best damage as far as I'm concerned... and checking things charm isn't one of them (paralysis is). Which leads to it just missing the 2HKO in this case.

On the other hand, as has come up before with "force basic physical" status effects vs. Pokemon, I only force them to use their weakest attack move on their current set, which means Sceptile can come in with Leaf Blade/Agility/Leer/Screech or something, which would then make Charm completely useless.

On the one hand you can argue that this is underrating Legaia 2 charm, so holistically I should give it more respect here. On the other hand, I don't have super-high levels of sympathy for status weapons I never used, in this and many other games. And as far as silly holistic arguments go, it's worth noting that Pokemon charm (which is certainly a nasty and relevant status in its own right) would still let Sceptile continue using Leaf Blade (likely losing a turn first, but that's a turn it can afford to give up).

Good fight though, not really going to be upset by either result. Unlike when Sceptile lost to Lemina. Or when Sharon lost to Cecil. It's actually funny how these two are fighting, since they're victims of two of the biggest robs in DL history probably.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2015, 07:33:11 PM »
I would definitely agree about Legaia 2 Charm; it well effectively stops anything it's used against and I would give it more credit. Do note that Sharon's strength in status isn't a status weapon though, it's Peach Surprise (so status weapons help, but aren't crucial). So she can is quite good at inflicting Charm with any weapon; If she starts with just 8 AP (which now having gone through it in the limit topic, I would certainly see them starting with at least 25 AP), it can be setup to use Charm turn 1 regardless of weapon.
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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2015, 09:27:48 PM »
I also just realized that there is another unfactored aspect that is likely slightly beneficial to Sharon; the topic takes equal levels, which I don't believe is quite accurate. I think she ended 1 or 2 levels above others. Not a big deal, but paired with her 5% HP boost equip, might prevent the 2HKO.
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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2015, 04:06:57 AM »
Godlike:

Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs Melc Crystals (G3)
Alternis Dim (BD)vs Jenna Angel (DDS)
Lady (SH3) vs Lavos (CT)
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ryu (BoF3)

High Heavy:

Black Mage (BD) vs Wren (PS4)
Jowy Atreides (S2) vs Odd Eye (SF2)
Lucina (FE13) vs Shania (SH3)
Raquel Applegate (WA4) vs Citan Uzuki (XG)

Croco (SMRPG) vs Demi (PS4)
Fujin (FF8) vs Sofia (DQ4)
Sharon (LoL2) vs Sceptile (PKMN)
Mia (FEs) vs Elly van Houten (XG)

Middle:

Raynie (RH) vs Brad Evans (WA2)
Tifa Lockheart (FF7) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Virion (FE13) vs Rena Lanford (SO2)
Nowi (FE13) vs Mario (SMRPG)

Shame:

Liz (WA2) vs Castform (PKMN)
Paula (EB) vs Garland (FF1)
Guido (G1) vs Nina (BoF3)

Igganova (PS4) vs Guard Scorpion (FF7)
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Re: Shift Tournament Week 2: Raquel vs Citan, the Tidest of matches.
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2015, 04:49:52 PM »
I'll update friday night/saturday morning, so get your votes/edits in before then!
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