Shift tournament: Finals!

[superaielman]

Yuna>Ghaleon
Ryu>Alternis


Chris>Ryu
Shania 5, Jowy 4

Rei>Rune
Sharon>Demi

Ulrika>Lilina
Flay>Nowi


Onix>Doll
Nina3 5, Liz 3




Godlike:

Yuna (FFX) vs Ryu (BoF3)


High Heavy:

Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Shania (SH3)


Low Heavy

Rei (BoF3) vs Sharon (LoL2)


Middle:

Ulrika Mulberry (MK2) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)



Onix (PKMN) vs Nina (BoF3)


--
Upgrade/downgrade pools for those who care. For the onix division, I grabbed four not complete and utter garbage fighters from the previous CKDL season.

HH/GL:

TimeLord, Reicher, Emelious, Lavos, Chris, Shania

LH/HH:

Citan, Wren, Layna, Rameriz, Rei, Sharon

M/LH:

Sofia, Mia, Steiner, Alfina, Flay, Ulrika

LI/Onix:

Miriel, Sacred Slayer, Ace, Jane, Onix, Nina

[superaielman]

Godlike:

Yuna (FFX) vs Ryu (BoF3)- Kneejerk of being faster. I definitely scale down Aeon damage and durablity to some extent (They do fight alone in game) but the Magus Three are still a thing.


High Heavy:

Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Shania (SH3)- I think SL handles business here.


Low Heavy

Rei (BoF3) vs Sharon (LoL2)- Faster? Sharon might be able to win anyway, but Rei has a lot of damage to play with here.


Middle:

Ulrika Mulberry (MK2) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)- Kneejerk of Ulrika being able to heal. Not sure on this though.



Onix (PKMN) vs Nina (BoF3)- This is not close.

[Random Consonant]

Godlike:

Yuna (FFX) vs Ryu (BoF3) - Very strong kneejerk.

High Heavy:

Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Shania (SH3) - Think so at any rate.

Middle:

Ulrika Mulberry (MK2) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)

Oh God Onix In The Finals:

Onix (PKMN) vs Nina (BoF3) - Blizzard.

May as well do this for once:

HH/GL:

TimeLord, Reicher, Emelious, Lavos, Chris, Shania

Lavos kind of gives me a headache and I'm not too sure what to think of him.  The worst case for him to me is that he has a little less than 0.8 PCHP and loses his first turn, the best is ignoring that and giving him the core's 2.4 PCHP, yeah that's too much of a split here so I'll abstain on him for now.  Ignoring that, Reicher sweeps offhand, should outslug Emelious (G3 evade is worthless against physical techs, so that hype can go make out with a woodchipper for all I care) and crunches the PCs.  Emelious vs. Shania is pretty good but he crunches the other two, TL crunches the other PCs, Chris is beating Shania.

Reicher: 4-0
Emelious: 2-1 (Shania pending)
TL: 2-2
Shania: 1-2 (Emelious pending)
Chris: 1-3

LH/HH:

Citan, Wren, Layna, Rameriz, Rei, Sharon

Rei gets swept offhand, Wren/Layna are both too tanky and Citan has the superior speed game.  Meanwhile Layna is a bit too durable and countery for Citan's liking and can smash past Wren (needs buffing but she can), and Citan should be able to build up a sufficient combo against Wren.

Layna: 3-0
Citan: 2-1
Wren: 1-2
Rei: 0-3

M/LH:

Sofia, Mia, Steiner, Alfina, Flay, Ulrika

Flay likely sweeps and Ulrika likely beats everyone else.  Sofia vs. Alfina is depressingly close since I only allow half maximum SP (consumables purchased in one place only with an in-game item cap of 9 and requiring extensive backtracking to get more of, *also* something that can go make out with a woodchipper) but I think Sofia takes that, which is pretty much her sole win since Stiener likely outslugs her and she gets two-rounded by Mia10.  Mia also two-rounds Steiner (I think at any rate) and goes first but IIRC getting stunned (closest comparison) killed your evade in FE10 and Alfina 2HKOs to me.  Stiener meanwhile laughs at Alfina's earth reliance and handles her.

Flay: 5-0
Ulrika: 4-1
Mia: 2-3
Steiner: 2-3
Sofia: 1-4
Alfina: 1-4

LI/Onix:

Miriel, Sacred Slayer, Ace, Jane, Onix, Nina

Miriel gets 2HKOd by Ace and beats everyone else,  Ace also 2HKOs Nina and my kneejerk is that the damage instability/stun odds lets him handle SS but gets spoiled by Onix, SS outslugs Nina and Onix, Nina is beating Onix.

Ace: 3-1
Miriel: 3-1
SS: 2-2
Nina: 1-3
Onix: 1-3

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike:

Yuna (FFX) vs Ryu (BoF3) - Faster. Have fun eating Magus Sisters to the face, Ryu.

High Heavy

Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Shania (SH3) - Very strong kneejerk here. Shania's skillset is all magic and she has issues on a physical slugfest against Chris' anti-physical game. So it goes.

Low Heavy

Rei (BoF3) vs Sharon (LoL2) - Death: is blocked. Weretiger: doesn't OHKO. Rei: eats an Apokolips to the face.

Middle

Ulrika Mulberry (MK2) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1) - Okay. Flay -has- to block Silence, it completely shuts his skillset down. Problem with that is that doing so means he now dies to Cannon Ball + Intent to Destroy and also lowers his speed to around 76% average turn one - not to mention he's still vulnerable to Slow, which, unlike MK1, actually applies instantly (this matters due to delaying Flay's first turn). However, Buster Star... wow, Buster Star is nasty, that KOs Ulrika in-between turns even with the damage hit from the statusblocker... or WOULD, but Last Stand stat boost below half HP to the rescue, that should let her survive a third star, since three barely KOed her before. However, he lands four before she finishes a Magic Hammer + ItD string - and she'd need a Healing Echo here to survive... but wait, -that- she can actually afford to do, it lets her live through a single full Buster Star string... and still lets her use ItD at full damage. But... honestly doesn't matter, since Flay gets two turns this way and he just finishes off with Screwdriver. Unless he gets hit by Slow, which, off his MDef, -should- be turn one and also let her pull Cannon + ItD before dying. But then, the odds of Guts could kick in, and then Ulrika is just -fucked-. Iunno. I'll just vote for the one I consider a better dueller or wait for Dhyer.



Onix (PKMN) vs Nina (BoF3) - In which Nina3 gets to look like a Godlike by overkilling Onix's HP by like 3x.

[Dhyerwolf]

5 out of 8 people were my nom list, which definitely makes this one of the more exciting final weeks for any tournament for me.

Godlike:
Yuna (FFX) vs Ryu (BoF3)


High Heavy:
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Shania (SH3)- For all that I get somewhat tempted to see defending as okay against SL type strategies since they are not effective at all at shutting the best S3 mage random down (Azzodess, IIRC)

Low Heavy
Rei (BoF3)vs Sharon (LoL2)- I'll bite on holding Rei to higher damage standard.


Middle:
Ulrika Mulberry (MK2) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)- I'm probably the wrong person for your analysis Snow since I don't factor in penalties to equip to status blockers. Ulrika has a clear 3HKO, but it does come off on turn 3.3 for her. Flay's Last Stand really gets that speed up, while her's is not quite so potent in effect. So I'm betting Flay gets turn 3 before Ulrika's 3.3. Ulrika can go for Slow, but...that's a 40% chance for specifically Slow, which is turn 3 (it also makes Ulrika slightly slower, so her third turn would come at 3.6 instead of 3.3).


Onix (PKMN) vs Nina (BoF3)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Rei (BoF3) vs Sharon (LoL2)- Yeah, Rei halves the status, should OHKO, and I don't think Sharon can evade turn 1 (turn 2 yes, but not 1).

Are you sure Legaia 2 defense is that potent? Sharon is almost average HP and Rei only deals 70% PC HP on a Weretiger swing.

[Dhyerwolf]

I don't hold Ryu's super smash damage against the other PCs (since it's basically guaranteed to insta slaughter your AP in game and because it changes the average so much), so Rei is closer to the 90% range to me.

[Dark Holy Elf]

"Go Myrmidon, use Aura twice" uses less than half of Ryu's AP (even counting the turn 3 upkeep cost). Hell, he could keep on using Aura up to and including turn 6! It's certainly reasonable to have in the averages. Additionally, more cost-effective versions exist if this is somehow too much for you, such as Warrior not loaded down with extra genes - its Aura should still do far more than Myrm physicals. I absolutely spammed Aura in boss fights and have no problem with considering two shots of it in a three-turn average.

Seeing Rei OHKO here is just... not something I can buy at all.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike:

Yuna (FFX) vs Ryu (BoF3): I'm fairly certain Anima is too much (Ryu3 came out less tanky than expected, so Anima should OHKO him... and also wins if Pain is perfect accuracy). Magus Three I find a bit dicy but probably handle Ryu too, yeah.


High Heavy:

Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Shania (SH3): Agreed that Silent Lake isn't great against Azodess (though does hurt them somewhat, certainly), but it completely wrecks Luc and Sarah and does a pretty damn good job of containing the final boss, so it certainly deserves some respect. You could take a dim view of it against SH specials, but eh, them being vulnerable to Seal in-game certainly does matter (Seal's a common boss status move) and Shania's are all magical.

I mean Shania can still fuse and has pretty good physical stats thereafter, so this isn't necessarily hopeless for her... but her physical damage isn't really as good as it used to look in the old topic (higher def used?) so I doubt it's enough.


Low Heavy

Rei (BoF3) vs Sharon (LoL2): Rei's faster by a tiny fraction of a point, but even giving him 100% respect for that... think he's in loads of trouble. His best bet is to poke with something, then Weretiger, then KO, which avoids a Mystic Arte nicely. Of course, he absolutely needs to block Charm, which probably lowers his damage/durability a fair bit (sadly, I don't have numbers on that BoF3 status resistance accessory). And absolutely needs his Confuse immunity to cover Charm. Like... I guess it's possible that he can 2HKO with the first hit not being from Weretiger and without the Spiked Guantlet AND avoid a 2HKO himself from Sharon's normals, but I doubt it.


Middle:

Ulrika Mulberry (MK2) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1): uhhh sure.



Onix (PKMN) vs Nina (BoF3): And finally Onix gets OHKOed by magic. Took long enough. EDIT: Actually Blizzard sucks more than I thought so that isn't a OHKO even by the lowest BoF3 damage average, but whatever she 2HKOs and is faster.

[Dhyerwolf]

Ryu definitely can't use it 6 times (5 at most). There aren't any alternative cheaper AP options. It just feels like a late spike to me that trivializes and distorts the worth of everyone else's damage, which is generally falls into my benchmark of things I don't hold against the rest of the cast (especially since it's completely impractical to use on non-bosses for the most part and it's probably...not an ideal strategy against the last two bosses of the game either, barring 4 initial turns first of buffing). That said, it's certainly not as major as Lenneth's GR or Yuri's SR (although the effect is actually relatively similar to SR on the averages likely; SR is just way worse to get and later to boot). I can certainly see including it, but I don't hold the rest of the cast against it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

He can use it for six turns (five Auras = 100 AP, transform = 16 AP, four turns of upkeep on turns 2-5 = 32 AP, he'd detransform at the end of turn 6). To exclude something that can be spammed up to and including turn 6 from a three-turn average is kinda ridiculous.

Unenhanced Warrior costs 8 AP/4 per turn, for a further savings compared Myrmidon Aura... he can go Warrior then use Aura six times for a valid seven-turn strategy, and while its damage isn't listed I'm very confident it still does more than the Myrmidon physicals the stat topic has assumed.

Warrior is not a late spike; you have it for like the last third of the game; surely before you get Mjollnir, for instance. You get it almost immediately after Weretiger! And it's borderline unmissable! Warrior was something that BoF3 PCs had to compete with in-game (especially Rei) and I don't feel bad about holding it against them.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I won't even get into how Weretiger is frankly a pile of shit in-game that gets your party killed unless you commit one-third of your ensemble to casting a useless skill that's a pain in the ass to learn from an early-game enemy and yet it's Rei's money strategy in the DL.

[Dhyerwolf]

Oh right, you could just go for Warrior. Sorry, for some reason I thought the attack base on Warrior was lower than it was. That would allow for 6 castings at around 780 damage, which I would certainly at least be more comfortable including.

I found learning the focusing move both really easy (it's not just early game enemies, as there is another right when you get Rei). 1/3 of the cast is a pretty minor thing when Weretiger is actually worth using on some randoms and you already spend so many times buffing in most fights regardless (most of the cast doesn't naturally have anything more worthwhile to use in randoms at endgame in fact. Nina and Momo are pretty the only exceptions there, and Momo is status, which is questionable anyways).

[Dark Holy Elf]

It's still pretty obscure; you both have to get the skill, figure out what it does, and then not give it to Ryu. Overall I do agree with Snow.

But even setting aside obscurity... it deserves to be held against the full wrath of Ryu's damage. Unlike the other PCs, you can't teach Rei Shadowwalk or Triple Blow to boost his (Weretiger) damage. Unlike the other PCs, he has to compete with Aura for virtually his entire existence (earlygame temp showing aside). Unlike the other PCs, he needs a bit of outside help to use his DL damage in-game.

There's no reason to protect him (or Ryu himself) from Myrmidon Aura in the damage average. Everyone else, I can see a case for, sure. (I dunno if I agree.)

[Pyro]

You only need Influence to be cast once, not constantly, to control the Weretiger (or Berserk Kaiser).

Ryu3 already does cruel and unspeakable things to the damage average as is. Aura just makes it an outlier to the point of ridiculousness. And I figure if the FFX cast gets a pass on Anima/other stuff in the damage averages I don't really have a problem with the BoF3 cast doing it. Although one COULD make the argument that Ryu3's best form is like Force+Thorn+Gross, which tends to get lots of EX-turns, and then include those EX-turns in the damage average... What'd that be... 5000 damage over 3 turns? Or a damage average of 415 and a kill point of 1038 for the cast? BoF3 cast for Puny, RYu3 for a kind of shitty Godlike?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Ryu3 wouldn't be remotely shitty, even by that figure/interp he can still do 5x PCHP in three turns...

Myrmidon physicals do not do "cruel" things to the average at all, Ryu's three-turn with them isn't even double the average that includes them! I agree that Aura does do cruel things, but I'm inclined to say that's the cast's problem, because it did exactly those same cruel things in-game, and not for a short/obscure length of time either. Unlike Anima...

-You can't reasonably miss the Force gene/Aura. The gene is thrown in your face and Aura is on its base form. If this were Tiamat or True Kaiser, that'd be another matter.
-You get it with a lot of game left: all but two bosses in the adult arc (three if you count Rei's boss form I guess), which is at least a third of the game.

This is damning to the prospect of excluding the move from the averages. The main things I've seen argued to be excluded from averages fail one, usually both of those. e.g. Yamikei, Lenneth's Glance Reviver, Rolf's Megid, Ryu's G Dragon, Yuri1's For the Child Johnny's Ether Purge. Additionally, many of these drain the user's resources really quickly, a problem that I've already shown that Aura does not have.


(I probably should factor in Anima these days though. But I'll note that it's certainly more questionable to put in the averages than Aura... in addition to two points listed above, there's the fact that it forces other PCs out of the battle and runs off a speed slower than Yuna's base... though I guess Quick Hit's existence offsets the latter argument.)

[superaielman]

Assuming you scale down the Aeons based on only being solo (Ignoring the Magus three randomness and the headache that is Yojimbo AI fort he moment) does it matter, ever? I've ran through that mental exercise, and I can't think of a fight where it does.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Right, upgrade/downgrade pools! I swear I'd be all for a tourney that was only comprised of those.

HH/GL:

TimeLord, Reicher, Emelious, Lavos, Chris, Shania

Well, let's start with TimeLord, since he's easy: bosses make him explode, PCs explode to him. That's a 2-3. Reicher... hm. Lavos needing a turn to get started is really bad against him. The damage spreading out due to multiple targets once he summons the bots -is- a thing, but that quickly fixes itself due to one of them being horrendously fragile and Reicher quickly getting some potent MT as his HP goes down anyway. The durability's kinda hard to surpass for Lavos, really. Emelious, honestly depends on how I feel about him dodging -all- of Reicher's skillset, but -all- of Reicher's skillset is evadable in-game. So yeah, that doesn't fly for now. Chris and Shania get munched in much the same way (god, Reicher even hits a weakness, that's ugly as sin). I mean, Chris' anti-physical game does annoy Reicher, but that's waaaaaaaaaaay, waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much offense piling up from ten billion directions. Lavos vs. Emelious feels like a foregone conclusion with Lavos needing to summon his bits in order to actually hack into Emelious, so yeah. Comparable speed and durability on Emelious close the deal. Chris gets her ass spoiled by Shadow Wave. Shania... well, initially I thought "what stops her from pulling off Xorn strats against Emelious?", but there's a wee little problem: he 3-2s Shania and still 2HKOs with Spirit Wail through Sanlittobel and Shining Zephyr. If she could at least -lap- Emelious (since she -does- become faster than him with Sanlittobel, but the recharge on SH3 speed buffs ain't pretty), maybe. Lavos, on the other hand, should do fine against the PCs. And Chris already beats Shania.

Emelious: 5-0
Reicher: 4-1
Lavos: 3-2
TimeLord: 2-3
Chris: 1-4
Shania: 0-5

LH/HH:

Citan, Wren, Layna, Rei, Sharon

Citan manhandles everybody but Layna in this pool. Wren gets eventually overwhelmed by AP storing + unleashing on a triple (and Citan -does- have the healing to keep that afloat until the fatal turnspread), Rei and Sharon just get outsped and 2HKOed. Layna makes it through by virtue of counters which Citan -has- to trigger. Since he uh 4HKOs Layna and she 3HKOs at base until the limit kicks in, which just splatters Citan all over the floor... and she could even -buff- to put even more pressure on Citan. Courage, for instance, would mean Citan has to spend 2/3 of his turns -healing-, because that makes Layna rip over 70% of his HP with a thwack. Anyhow, Wren also loses to Layna: go first, Enliven => pressure until she has the stamina to use limits, at which point Courage => limit just tears even Wren to pieces, and he just doesn't have the damage to kill Layna first. Which means Layna also chomps the rest of the pool: Sharon explodes to Layna's counters and Rei can't possibly stop Layna from getting two turns. Sharon already beats Rei, who cries in the corner. Very straight-forward.

Layna: 4-0
Citan: 3-1
Wren: 2-2
Sharon: 1-3
Rei: 0-4

M/LH:

Sofia, Mia, Steiner, Alfina, Flay, Ulrika

Oh boy. Sofia relies on Sleepmore being turn 1 on Mia, since she two-rounds and Sofia can't possibly overcome that otherwise - and even then, she's not out of the woods, since Sleep needs to last three turns total or work twice. Given this, I could go either way, but yeah. Against Steiner it's pathetically close because of Lightning resistance on Steiner's end + Iai Strike - oh, and Steiner's faster... come to think of it, actually, I'm suspecting this doesn't work out for Sofia, I have my doubts she can keep Steiner from getting four turns or so (she 6HKOs Steiner with Thordain, what the -hell-). Maybe if I had played DQ4DS. Against Alfina... uh. Can she squeeze three Meteor Strikes after three Stun Forces? Feels like that's what the match hinges on, though maybe she can squeeze a bit more for me, I still allow full SP... but then, she'll need it, of course, higher averages. So, if she could squeeze four of them in-between, maybe this works out. But not sure. Flay wrecks her, Defense Down+Buster Star completely wreck her and she's -slower- than Flay even turn one. Oh, and she can't chip-2HKO through Last Stand range. She performs almost as badly against Ulrika because of Magic Hammer, which turns her into Ragnar-lite. I'll split the difference between Mia and Alfina and say she loses to the first and beats the other, though. As for Mia ... well. Steiner 2HKOs her and probably can do it with MT, so does she two-round herself? *Mathmathmath.* ... no. She'd need a lucky Astra here, and no respect for that as always. Alfina survives a turn and can shut down Mia's offense, at least. Flay uh laps Mia by using Raiden Charge turn one and OHKOs with Screwdriver, along with being able to survive three Mia attacks. Ulrika... OHKOs with Intent to Destroy. What the fuck, fail less at taking hits, Mia. Steiner... I think he can beat Alfina, he halves Earth and she deals little to no damage to him while he's paralyzed, and my kneejerk is to say Holy Circle doesn't keep him at bay. Against Flay, I think he just gets outslugged: he doesn't even 2HKO Flay and Buster Star, as usual, is pretty brutal, especially post-Defense Down. Against Ulrika... heh. He doesn't 2HKO her, for starters, and if I see his skillset affected by her Silence, which does shut down physical skills, he's utterly screwed. Even if I don't, though, this isn't a very easy match for him: Healing Echo staves away the 3HKO (might even turn him down from a -4HKO-), he doesn't like the other status much (Slow is a possible gamebreaker here) and, though she -does- have trouble killing him, she has a shot even so, as he can't put her away from Last Stand range. So, I'll put this as a tiebreaker and hand Ulrika the win. My kneejerk regarding Alfina is that she loses to both Flay and Ulrika - Flay she just can't even put away from Last Stand range and he has zero worries about Holy Circle, since Buster Star shreds her. Ulrika opening with one of Healing Echo or Elemental Barrier likely crumbles Alfina's gameplan to dust. And then, there's Ulrika vs. Flay, which ends in his favor. Ulrika performing this well in general just weirds me out, but maybe she just isn't a Middle. Flay isn't one either, but that we already knew.

Flay: 5-0
Ulrika: 4-1
Steiner: 3-2
Sofia: 1-4
Mia: 1-4
Alfina: 1-4

LI/

Miriel, Sacred Slayer, Ace, Jane, Onix, Nina

Well! Miriel beats Sacred Slayer, I've seen that match on Proving Grounds before. Ace... dear god, he 2HKOs Sage Miriel with his physical off above average speed and she can't 2HKO back. Jane can't possibly deal with Miriel's counters, on the other hand, and if she fails to double, she just doesn't stand a chance. Onix loses to Miriel the same way he loses to fucking Maribelle, and Nina eats a nice 2HKO to the face along with not even 3HKOing if she wants to dodge counters. Nice start. Sacred Slayer vs. Ace is pretty awful: suppose her best bet is casting Fragile => Sanctify and healing... but Ace damage be sorta spiky and he's obviously faster, along with having Stun odds to tilt it out. I'll honestly await for Elfboy. Sacred Slayer vs. Jane is pathetic, she wins this by virtue of an ID crit because Sacred Slayer damage is the worst thing ever. I -believe- Sacred Slayer is faster than Onix, too, so this at least saves me some trouble (Fragile => 2HKO with Sanctify because Onix mdur what the hell). Nina3 is, well, Nina3 and has to face SS's amazing mdur, which doesn't pan out against that much healing, even though 6-7HKOing Nina with physicals is ONE HELL OF A FEAT and Nina also likely gets to slow her down further with Blunt and Slow. Ace deals poorly with Jane in spite of her horrible damage because of evade, of course. Occasional Mystic Potion Berries should tip this in her favor. Onix uh spoils him, I think, you don't really want to go physical with Onix pretty much ever in . Nina gets 2HKOed and can't 2HKO back. Okay, now for Jane! Against Onix, the evade does it in: troll until she has the FP for Mystic Water/Ice gems and watch the pretty fireworks fly. Nina... uh they 4HKO each other and Jane's faster. Since Nina's stat busts are turn two on average, I don't think they really tip much of anything, especially if Jane builds some FP to use the occasional Potion Berry or two. Onix loses to Nina and that's that.

Miriel: 4-1
Jane: 4-1 (what the)
Ace: 1-3 (Ace vs. SS pending)
Sacred Slayer: 2-2 (Ace vs. SS pending)
Nina: 1-4
Onix: 1-4

[SnowFire]

Quick one.

Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Shania (SH3)


Jo'ou: Came up in chat, but Steiner's Shock! has a ranged-ish animation and ignores row, so he doesn't even need MT vs. Mia (barring FE10 Wind Edge hype?!) and Alfina's Holy Circle doesn't scare him either.

Re interp debates: I recall being in an RPGMon ages ago where Pyro advocated using the 1-turn damage average for the then BoF3 topic where Ryu has cast-worst damage, so I don't think you're likely to convince here, Elf! 

Can't comment directly on BoF3 myself, but I will agree with Elf that in general the best reasons to boot something out of the averages are optional (perma-missable for even more points) and showing up extremely late.  Resource constraints are reasonable, though; I don't think I hold the likes of Jessica's Magic Burst against the rest of the DQ8 cast, for example, just her.  (Though that is also rather late & optional as well.)  Using resource constraints to lower the damage average does mean that damage in general creeps up across the DL - the Bravely Default cast is one very obvious recent example.  (The 3-turn average leaves a significant fraction of the cast with 0 MP and all of the cast with -3 BP, but use a 4-turn average or the like and the cast is even better at smashing.  Although I guess you could do something like offer BD PCs the option of either the 3-turn average and unlimited Brave, or of using the 4-turn average under the requirement that characters not go below -1 BP until turn 4?!  Could be an interesting thought exercise at least.).

[superaielman]

Shouldn't Onix be 1-4 and Ace 1-3, Snow?



Reicher: 4-0
Emelious-2-2
TL: 2-2
Chris: 1-3
Shania: 1-3


Abstaining on Lavos because headache. TL pastes the PC's, loses to the bosses. Reicher posterizes the field. Emo get spoiled by Shania and slaughtered by Reicher, outlasts TL and Chris. Chris beats Shania and can't handle the rest.

LH/HH:

Rameriz>Layna>Citan>Wren>Sharon>Rei



I think so? The match that is really up in the air is Rameriz vs Wren. Rameriz should 2HKO and Drilnos is a thing in a long fight. This fight might last long enough for RAMERIZ REGEN HYPE YES.... okay maybe not. Still, think Rameriz manages the 2HKO off the bat which is bad news. Wren's not fast or damaging enough to really win the fight if he's healing all the time.

M/LH:

Flay=Ulrika>Steiner>Sofia>Mia>Alfina

Is my kneejerk. Alfina is hot garbage and Mia loses to everyone else. Steiner 2HKOs from long range which is death, Sofia can status her out and Flay/Ulrika deal too much non counterable damage. Steiner IDs Sofia.

LI/Onix:

Onix and Nina both would stay down.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, you're correct. I edited it.

[Pyro]

Ryu3 vs. a kill point of 1026 would probably no longer be a 'High' Godlike at all, as he'd struggle to deal with any physical spoiling at all.

If I ever made a comment about BoF3 averages like that in RPGmon it was either laziness or a shameless attempt to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

As far as excluding things you allow from the averages... it should probably never be done for obscurity/lateness reasons. If you feel something is too obscure or late, ban it. Resources is a pretty valid concern, as is 'practicality' (A frail person getting a 3rd turn for example) and maybe even 'spoilability' (Clarissa's Sacrifice is great one-shot but is crap if she's thwacked).

What I was alluding to was more along the lines of smoothing outlier effects on averages. For reference. This is more of a thing for small casts than for big casts. (Ryu's Aura 3-turn is 717 to a 250 average that includes him, and a 156 average that does not). I suppose it's an attempt to apply some geometric average smoothing to things. Other places I've felt this was appropriate were Tales of Vesperia (Really, Yuri. Really?) and Atelier Rorona. I've thought that maybe Raquel from WA4 might have needed it but she actually competes with some fairly competent damage from Arnaud/Jude I think. Basically cases where one PC so skewed an average that it felt a bit unfair/odd. I suppose this could happen with defensive stats if, say, FF6 Mog's defense was listed as "Infinity" it wouldn't make the other cast members supremely pathetic at taking hits and so on and so forth.

But if you allow Anima it's probably only fair to throw it in the damage averages. I can see scoffing a bit on the distorting effect the outlier number has (for all that FFX PCs usually have a variety of ways to hit silly damage), so maybe you decide that's why it doesn't belong. Allowing a cast more offense based on rarity of a particular move is kind of odd. Though I guess if you want to you can say it's trying to 'make things look like they did in-game' to the benefit of the cast.

HH/GL:

TimeLord, Reicher, Emelious, Lavos, Chris, Shania

I give Lavos his formchain. And parts.

Timelord beats Chris and Shania, loses to Reicher/Emilious/Lavos
Reicher beats Chris, Shania, Emelious. (Perfect evade misses some conditions, and the bits will be swarming masterfully). Loses to Lavos?
Emelious beats Chris and Shania, loses to Lavos.
Lavos beats Chris and Shania
Chris beats Shania, apparently? Odd how that works out.

LH/HH:

Citan, Wren, Layna, Rameriz, Rei, Sharon
Citan beats Wren, Sharon, and Rei (I think he just 2HKOs Rei), loses to Layna  and Rameriz.
Wren beats Rameriz, Rei, and Sharon. Loses to Layna
Layna beats Rei and Sharon, loses to Rameriz.
Rameriz beats Rei/Sharon
If Rei is faster than Sharon, her best bet is to 2HKO him. IIRC you can't Mystic Art if are slower and get 2HKOd? Or could you?

M/LH:

Sofia, Mia, Steiner, Alfina, Flay, Ulrika

LI/Onix:

Miriel, Sacred Slayer, Ace, Jane, Onix, Nina

[Dhyerwolf]

You know what, I'm actually switching on Rei v Sharon. I can see taking Rei and Ryu alone against the higher average. The convincing thing to me ends up being that I don't like things translating like that into a duel (aka: getting remarkably better than in game performance). As such, I don't allow bosses to auto-focus moves that they can't in game; I give more credit to Sharon for Charm than a straight duel performance would indicate; and I'm okay seeing Rei being worse on damage due to those considerations. So Rei is closer to 70% damage. I guess Rei still wins all the matches he got though to me, but don't think he's a Heavy now...