Author Topic: Shift tournament 2: Noms!  (Read 2571 times)

superaielman

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Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« on: May 10, 2015, 12:03:41 PM »
4-6 noms per division. Champs get an automatic rebid in their higher division with the exception of Godlike, where Yuna gets a rebid. 

For the sake of making finding noms easier, you can re nominate anyone who did not get a win last season.

This will be open till I whip up enough noms (At least a week). *Whips* Do noms!
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

superaielman

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2015, 12:03:48 PM »
Godlike: Sephiroth (FF7), Jezuit (BoF5), Ryu (BoF5), BossX (SaGa), Souji/Yu (Pers4), Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)

High Heavy: Claude Kenni (SO2), Luca Blight (S2), Endora (OB), Razeluxe Meitzen (MK2), Zeromus (FF4), Galcian (SoA)

Low Heavy: Lich (FF1), Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7), Tohru Adachi (Pers4), Crono (CT),  Margulis (XS2), Beowulf Kamdus (FFT)

Middle: Nergal (FE7), Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2), Fred Maximillian (Suiko3), Dekar (Lufia 2), Rauny Vinzalf (OB), Palom (FF4)

Shame: Kain Highwind (FF4), Raja (PS4), Noel Chandler (SO2), Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7), Tony (XF), Bard (FFT)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 05:27:19 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2015, 04:02:40 AM »
Tricia in the category of shame????
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2015, 04:05:03 AM »
Tricia's just so damned weird, but I'm guessing super's thinking on how badly she lines up against the typical Light (i.e. crappy melee types), which often happen to have a gross typing advantage on her. She struggles against the likes of Locke, even though she's pretty good against mages and healers.

EDIT: I'm more shocked at Cecil in low Heavy, last time he ran in Proving Grounds, he was struggling against other -Middles-. Dear god, he eats it to RENA.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2015, 04:50:50 AM »
Since Super scales against all types and not just named PCs (at least he does for OB, can't see why SN would be different), Tricia can normally deal with at least scrubby Light fighters via counters.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2015, 05:14:19 AM »
I assume the Shame division champion doesn't get a bid in the higher division, since the higher division there should be Light, which is omitted? Certainly Nina will just be outclassed in Middle.

I'd also recommend Yuna not return in High Godlike, get some fresh blood in. For that matter I'd really prefer none of the first-round losers come back either, but whatever works there.

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superaielman

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2015, 05:39:52 PM »
Oooh, archers get melee counters in SN? That... that does help.


And re returns: High godlike's a bit hard to find noms for, which is why I put that in. I can toss that if people want.

E: Yeah, I can punt Nina and Yuna as well.  To Snow: Curious if Cecil does any better in Low Heavy rather than regular heavy. The worst that happens is that he gets crushed and jobs.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 06:24:33 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2015, 09:50:52 AM »
Divisions: Godlike: 4.7+ (5 of 6 are new)
Sephiroth, Tibarn, False Althena, Arceus, Orlandu, Terra

1. Will his durability woes look even worse here?
2. Really good since I see his evade working on everything. 1-D offensively, but having slightly above OHKO does make him pretty fearsome.
3. Definitely has the HP, speed and damage
4. Yeah, playing Pokemon recently just reminds that I feel confident enough on duellers I haven't seen
5. The DL's premier draining game?
6. Although she may have a few arguments to that

High Heavy: 4.2-4.7

Tana, Ulf, KOS-MOS, Millenia, Lyon (S5), Arc

1. Can she run the game now which her crazy evade and double rate?
2. Speed and damage, but not fond of fast healers
3. Incentive to finish the topic
4. Misses that speed respect even more.
5. Almost a varient of a magical-based Ulf trading in concrete HP for elemental resistance and being a bit more balanced attacker in trade for some speed
6. Normally Elc is the one running around with wins. Maybe this division will be more Arc's speed?

Low Heavy: 3.6-4.2 (3 of 6 New)

Momo (Bof 3), Fayt, Maria, Odie, Tosh, Beowulf

1. See how well her game functions with a few holes punched it in offensively
2. Yeah, I did rank him 4.25, but I figure my respect is high, so this is a fair enough test of how he would play
3. The DL's premier PC paralyzer?!
4. Bringing that off balanced fun SN smash (Replaced Grunzford, so same caption). Finally a division that fits better?
5. Bringing the skillset but not the speed. Maybe like Arc, he'll have a little more lucky here?
6. Lots of status+FFT Shields

Middle: 3.0-3.6 (2 of 6 New)

Pepporoni, Tio, Fred (S3), Sophia, Shante, Bart

1. A little straightforward, but with a few little offensive quirks
2. Just has a simple mix of skills I find interesting with a nice defensive quirk.
3. Dat Face
4. The power of SO 3 Freeze
5. Just has felt like forever since I nommed her for something
6. Can he make his defensive tricks work for him here?

The Division of Shame: 1.00-2.00 (Man, I wish RS was ranked for something like this) (2 of 6 New)
Chu Chu, Yumei, Celine, Dancer (FFT), Pinot, Aeris

1. Unleash your fail of combo synergy.
2. Finally a VP mage can look impressive
3. The might of Angel Feather. Hey that 3% Regen is looking pretty good right now?
4. Phear the status. The physical almost approaches being credibly dangerous in the division.
5. If she's fair game
6. Sure, if she's fair game
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 11:34:58 PM by Dhyerwolf »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2015, 06:49:34 PM »
I don't think I nommed anyone from last season, but if I did, let me know.

Godlike: Penultimate (BD), Avalon (Leg2), Orlouge (Saga), Wraith (VP1)
High Heavy: Wakka (FFX), Fang (FF13), Eirika (FE8), Charlton (WAXF)
Low Heavy: Gau (FF6), Delita Hyral (FFT), Rose (LoD), Nelis (S5)
Middle: Pent (FE7), Micaiah (FE10), Hippopressor (MMXCM), Jeane (S4)
Aiel Wastes: Ronfar (Lunar EBC), Kosanji (S3), Jelanda Artolia (VP1), Shady Thousand (WA3)

Probably getting to the end of the point where I feel the need to use BD spoiler names (getting on towards a year and a half) but I'll continue for now just to be safe.

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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2015, 08:03:44 PM »
Godlike: Vritra (DDS2), Weisheit (WA:XF), Violetta (G3), Bug (BD)
High Heavy: Lucia (Suikos), Nel Zelpher (SO3), Hugo (S3), Tidus (FFX)
Low Heavy: Tiki (FE13), Umi (CstW), Tana (FE8), Delita Hyral (FFT)
Middle: Meganium (HGSS), Lucca Ashtear (CT), Micaiah (FE10), Henry (FE13)
Division of Shame: Chu-Chu (XG), Mist Dragon (FF4), Shady Thousand (WA3), Kosanji (S3)
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2015, 10:06:59 PM »
Godlike: Katrina Liane Elesius (WAXF), Belial (WA4), Conjurer (BD), Uryuu (MK2), Incentas (MMXCM).

High Heavy: Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1), KOS-MOS (XS1), Lyon (S5), Rayquaza (PKMN), Hildagarde Valentine (SH3).

Low Heavy: Strago Magus (FF6), Magisa (FF5), Etward Dysler (MK2), Sasarai (S3), Red Mage (FF3).

Middle: Vivi Ornitier (FF9), Lita (BoD7), Henry (FE13), Lise (SD3), Vespiquen (PKMN).

: Nanami (VP), Maribelle (FE13), Kelvena (XG), Chidori Yoshino (P3), Riddel (CC).
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 11:37:03 PM »
Ciato, Nel now definitely feels weak to hanging in High Heavy (since she lost a lot of damage and her fatal status is turn 2 instead of turn 1 now). I gave her a 4 myself.

Subbed in KOS-MOS for Ryu 2 (speaking of people who after a topic is done, might feel closer M/H than H/G).
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SnowFire

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2015, 01:10:14 AM »
super: for whatever it's worth, echoing a "boot Yuna" call.

Dhyer: Nel champed Heavy before and upgraded to Godlike in the old DL.  I realize your stat topic antihypes her some, but she still seems really dangerous for High Middle / Low Heavy.

Godlike
Kraken (FF3)
Orphan (FF13)
Orlandu (FFT)
Apocrypha (RH)
Terra (FF6)
Sephiroth (FF7)

High Heavy:
Ephraim (FE8)
Dehaui (SH1)
Kuja (FF9)
White Fiend (Lunar2)
Dark Knight (BD)
Fang (FF13)

Low Heavy:
Elena (G2)
Nash (S3)
MOMO (XSes)
Heinkel (BD)
Cordelia (FEA)
Rosa (FF4)

Middle:
Luna (Lunar)
Kyle (Lunar)
Kellam (FEA)
Hojo (FF7) (yes, just to watch him fail miserably)
Squall (FF8)
Ranger (BD)

The Aiel Wastes:
Juno (FE6)
Palmer (FF7)
Bard (FFT)
Gato (CT)
Lorenta (VP)
Nana (G1)

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2015, 04:21:58 AM »
Dhyer: Nel champed Heavy before and upgraded to Godlike in the old DL.  I realize your stat topic antihypes her some, but she still seems really dangerous for High Middle / Low Heavy.

In fairness, losing 25%-30% of your relative damage and having your fatal status go from turn 1 to turn 2 are both pretty damaging. Her MP damage did go up substantially, so she did get something in return (although she still needs to trade another 25% of her damage to get the MP damage, so it's not exactly something for nothing). Either way, she used to kill average on turn 2 via damage and turn 1 for status; now it's turn 3 via damage and turn 2 for status. I did put her as a 4, so definitely not calling her a high Middle (but not quite in the 4.2 range).
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2015, 07:21:03 AM »
First off, I'll note that there should never be a problem with fielding people in their divisions they're slightly too weak for. It's not like Nel gets swept by the higher heavies or anywhere close, 139% speed turn 2 fatal-status-which-is-rarely-blocked?

It's possible she could fly in the lower division, certainly, but I dunno. Her damage is certainly going to be better for me, since SIDE KICK as good damage is just lolno as far as I'm concerned, and I'm pretty skeptical about Roger somehow getting fuck-tons more damage but would have to investigate why before making a final decision there. And her damage is better still for anyone who still allows skills gained in the aftergame, since Divine Wrath is so badass. I don't really care, people can nom her in either as far as I'm concerned.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2015, 07:34:24 AM »
I would counter that there is a reason that Side Kick was definitely agreed to the best in game tech on the US version among the DL.
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2015, 01:30:35 PM »
What makes it good for me is more the invinco frames than the damage, though. It had a pretty bad tendency to constantly whiff midcombo against most human-sized enemies, which is a problem I found even using it as one of my money moves for Fayt.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2015, 04:51:05 PM »
I'm not sure what this "agreement" is because I certainly don't recall seeing that much hype for it myself when the DL was abuzz with SO3 talk a decade ago. I remember that there was some debate as to whether it justified his use prior to getting Air Raid/Dimension Door, but I personally decided to drop him before then (but after Side Kick) because Cliff and Nel had clearly better stuff to me. Side Kick had some quirky invincibility use, yeah, but offence? It was okay against large enemies, junk against human-sized ones. Maybe I wasn't timing it correctly or something but too bad, so sad. If I legitimately tried to make use of an ARPG combo and found it lacking, I will never respect it in the DL.

EDIT:

-Actually, I thought the "agreed upon" best tech was Scatter Beam.
-Just went through the in-game use ratings for SO3. I think it's fair to say the DL comes up with pretty good ratings overall. Now, to me, if Side Kick were so amazing, Fayt would probably deserve the highest score in the game, since the rest of his stats (speed, durability) are good, and Side Kick is gained early. You could argue Nel slightly higher for initial Healing I guess, but that's about it, and certainly you wouldn't be able to argue Cliff or Maria above him... and yet almost everyone ranked Fayt behind all three. In fact, only one person ranked him above #4 in the cast, and said person put him in a four-way tie for #2. Not a single first-place vote! Now, you didn't vote, so I guess you'd disagree, but it's pretty obvious a lot of people didn't find the tech as good as you did.
-Pre-emptive reminder that I like Fayt, the character, before someone tries to play the "you didn't use him because you don't like him" card. No, I didn't use him because I hated his techs.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 05:05:33 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2015, 07:04:10 PM »
I can put Nel in Low Heavy if ya'll want but I'm not sure she belongs there. Super?
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2015, 08:36:51 PM »
When I noted it in chat when I was doing the topic, I got about 3-4 really strong supports for how amazing the move was (so I guess this wasn't exactly a measured metric, but it did start a decent conversation about it for a few minutes). Side Kick does indeed sometimes have an issue with human sized enemies in a random way, but it's basically the only tech that can recover from a failure due to the invincible frames (so the accuracy issue is reflected in the damage, but it only takes a little practice so that missing isn't a big deal at all. There isn't a move in SO 3 in some shape or form that doesn't have accuracy issues). If it didn't have those issues, it would be hitting 8 of 8 in the topic instead of 6.33 of 8 (Against human enemies, it was 5.5 of 8 though, so definitely not junk level). Scatter Beams would surprise me though because it's only getting near it's damage potential at close range, and Maria at close range is...not good.

There are of course views where Fayt looks worse. If you don't take an average of enemies, he can look worse (personally, I feel capturing the whole range of SO 3 enemies types felt far more true to in game, especially since it was since my average was still weighted around mid-size enemies even though most of the dangerous randoms were larger (and you also don't need to be much larger than midsize to make SK amazingly accurate). Side Kick can also look worse in game with bad synergy players who are big on knockdown (Cliff early on is a bad one until FoF for example). It's also not exactly a great AoE attack and not necessarily the funnest attack to use all game either.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2015, 10:01:59 PM »
The previous stat topic had Side Kick's damage as below average (even banning the aftergame skills). Yours has it not only above, but ridiculously above, with no explanation given for the massive change. Ditto Roger, to a lesser extent. Actually, if you could explain what's up with the huge changes in damage figures between the two topics, I'd appreciate it, especially since the previous stat topic was the combined work of several people who understood the game well, and seemed pretty good to me. (I personally used many of the combos it listed and hand-confirmed some of its calculations, IIRC, though it's been years.)

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superaielman

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2015, 12:22:50 AM »
I can put Nel in Low Heavy if ya'll want but I'm not sure she belongs there. Super?

When in doubt, put in the higher division.
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2015, 04:04:29 AM »
The previous stat topic had Side Kick's damage as below average (even banning the aftergame skills). Yours has it not only above, but ridiculously above, with no explanation given for the massive change. Ditto Roger, to a lesser extent. Actually, if you could explain what's up with the huge changes in damage figures between the two topics, I'd appreciate it, especially since the previous stat topic was the combined work of several people who understood the game well, and seemed pretty good to me. (I personally used many of the combos it listed and hand-confirmed some of its calculations, IIRC, though it's been years.)

My apologies if the change wasn't fully explained; it wasn't that the old topic had most of the mults wrong (the mults are fine for the most part; There are a few that were actually off by a multiplier of 10 as they were taken from a faulty FAQ and not tested. If that FAQ was right, Fayt would have been even better as he would have had almost as much HP damage and could pair it with absurd MP damage..off of CHARGE of all things (Before I figured out that Charge levels don't effect damage anyways)), it's that the old topic took ignored a whole grouping of massive things that can be boiled down to:

--The old topic assumes that literally every single hit of a combo would connect. So it ignored: hits flat out missing (ala Side Kick at times), knockdown completely messing up a combo (making it extremely difficult to get most of the damage in as the enemies were down; aka: Ahahahahahaha Faerie Friend was quadruple chained into itself in the old averages), Guts blocking (due to hits not coming quickly enough or due to knockdown as well) and whether some combos were really even viable (some moves just are baaaaad at comboing due to above factors, or lag, or distance issues. Ethereal Blast and Faerie Friend are grevious offenders).

So I tested (every potentially relevant combo I could at all think of) against a wide array of 12 enemies pretty thoroughly (as noted, centered around medium size enemies. Side Kick doesn't actually need huge enemies to get amazing, just a little bigger than average. As noted, it's not bad before that anyways), then I averaged the effective hits rates based on how reliably a particular combo could get in all of it's hits based on the above mentioned factors. Best was IIRC, Ice Daggers, coming in an almost 90% hit rate (2.67 of 3). Side Kick was very good at 6.33 of 80 (79%; As noted, Side Kick's great strength is that even when it misses, invincibility frames are great for keeping the combo going and avoiding a Fury backlash; Not perfect, but definitely the premier tech in the game for that effect. It's definitely why it came out number 1 in damage). I'm not next to my notes, but another example is Air Slash (67%, 6 of 9; main problem: not good at breaking guard; You can a short weak and a long strong generally. I generally have notes for comboability for all moves to some degree in the topic). Generally 65% was probably something pretty normal for DL passable combos (gut-check).

DL Combos normally were generally noted like this:

Weak Long->Magic Hook->Faerie Friend (L6/L2, 15 CP, 0.5/0.7): First tech hit 0.5 times of it's max, second hit 0.7 (Needless to say, Faerie Friend was certainly a balance to someone like Fayt to bring that hit rate to the 65% area because that's approaching 30% hit rate territory).

Other Changes:
--Factored in realistic levels for techs based on how spammable a tech was and how long you had it (This in particular was a great boon to Side Kick as there is no move that is around for that long, is that chainable, and has such low Fury cost). This change seems pretty clear cut for allowing.
--I also included +500 Attack for just a better reflective in game balance (since you can stack attack boosts to so many levels, but 500 is a very midrange between utterly breaking the game in a way that generally needed very, very large piles of money and some very specific knowledge given SO 3's crafting system and doing nothing). Taking this out doesn't particularly move the barometer for Fayt either way, but does make averages look higher than in the previous topic.

I will also note that the average OK did with Berserk got Berserk's effect wrong (it says 30% Fury reduction and appears to be just factoring 30%?! This should also be beneficial to Side Kick because it's so cheap that it means he gets in a good number extra at 300% mult). I also wouldn't be surprised if there were just better combos that OK didn't check, but I don't care enough to check that. Either way, boils down to once that topic had the mults in, it just made a bunch of assumption to just gloss over in game effectiveness (Which we always knew to some degree since I've been questioning FF hit rate forever; the key was becoming less lazy (the process did end up being fun as fuck though, unlike say...testing XS 1 crit rates). Hopefully that wasn't too much of a wall of text.
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2015, 05:04:25 PM »
Not too much of a wall of text at all; thanks for posting it.

+500 Attack is a pretty big effect which I certainly didn't have but it's probably not unreasonable to get, yeah. Luther probably hates you if you hold that against him, he was fragile enough as it was (badass offence but it's a limit so in DL terms he's very unhappy the lower you take his HP).

Beyond that I dunno. My experiences just don't really line up with yours as far as the combos go, but I feel to dwell on that now is to go in circles. It's been a decade since I've played the game and would really want to re-check things again, but as I said overall I was pretty happy with the DL combos I tested most, not so happy with Side Kick generally. (And while I do agree that Faerie Friend had problems, they were "missing 30-50% of its hits" problems, not "missing 70%+ such that Peppita was better off using Magic Hook" problems.)

It's worth noting that this tangent is very much a tangent since Nel doesn't have great damage without aftergame skills by either topic!

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Shift tournament 2: Noms!
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2015, 01:05:05 AM »
Faerie Friend in fairness is difficult move to gauge without really paying attention because it can a bit of visual chaos. Please note that for sheer simplicity sake, I used 1 on 1s in the arena (since anything other formation would just be nightmarish to replicate enemy conditions. Also reflects that it felt pretty common for you to be fighting an enemy 1 on 1 while your allies grappled with other enemies). Faerie Friend's swirl part especially would be hard to gauge because it can knock enemies down/around and get varying hits. That said, Faerie Friend may be better with allies to a degree because it doesn't track very well. I have seen a number of instances were the enemies were knocked down, got up when the non AoE part was active, had it completely miss and hit Peppita out of it.
...into the nightfall.