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Author Topic: Top 10 poll  (Read 9018 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2015, 03:33:39 AM »
Hello there, Suikosource.

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Scar

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2015, 03:36:44 AM »
That game got 4 votes from Suikosource.

So, take that however you want to.
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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2015, 04:21:21 AM »
EDIT: PS4 was on the list, Alex.


Mmm I'd say CT's gameplay is notable enough and a part of what pushes it above many other SNES RPGs. I bet lots of people could tell you what various CT bosses did (Golem Twins, Tyrano, Magus, etc.), much moreso than many other games from the time. And there's absolutely no way you can argue that FF5's gameplay didn't add to its experience. The game doesn't have the benefit of nostalgia but is still very popular, and I don't think that's for the adventures of Bartz (see how big Fiesta is). I guess you could argue a class system is kinda different from gameplay in the pure combat sense, though.

Similarly I think there's a lot of games released today where gameplay is pretty secondary. Does anyone really like Skyrim's combat? I've seen its fans insult it. Or to pick a JRPG example, Xenoblade... I've definitely seen multiple big Xenoblade fans say "yeah the game's gameplay isn't very good, but it's an RPG and I play those for other things". There's probably going to be higher complexity than there is for an Earthbound, I guess, but not necessarily that much and certainly not for the time. (Also Dragon Quest 9 is a thing that exists, sadly.)

"Very popular" is kind of a stretch.  I'm sure it has a cult following and it's popular in the kind of circles that care about the Four Job Fiesta or single-class challenges, but I only know one person who's ever finished it (and it's not me), whereas I know a ton of people who played and finished something like CT or FF7.  It's probably very popular among people who are still enthusiastic about playing a 20-year-old game regularly, but it doesn't really have the mass popularity of many of its more story-driven contemporaries.

As far as Skyrim goes, I would say combat is secondary in Skyrim but gameplay is certainly a primary concern.  It's just that the main thrust of gameplay isn't on combat but on exploration, customization and the general "world as toy" concept.  They probably wouldn't have spent the time to code your ability to kill people with falling items if they didn't intend for you to play with it, for instance.

Reiska

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2015, 07:10:43 AM »
I think outside of this site, most people play RPGs mainly for characters and story, and consider gameplay "whatever, as long as it's there and kinda fun" except in the case of specifically strategy games.  Seeing someone classify Earthbound as a NON-experimental game is... very surprising to me.

You make a good point about most people's aims for RPGs, at least from the western POV.  There certainly exist people outside the DL community who value gameplay over story and characters; Dragon's Den (the DQ fansite) and Insane Difficulty are pretty good examples of such communities.  (Yes, some people really love DQ gameplay for its simplicity.)  I would make the (completely unscientific) argument that average JRPG gameplay has gotten worse over time, with the caveat that while the *average* has gotten worse, the outlier games with fantastic gameplay have tended to get better and better.  A game with otherwise extremely safe gameplay (like Dragon Quest) needs something to elevate it above that for *some* niche, and that something is usually either characters and story (see Earthbound or Wild Arms) or a semblance of difficulty (most actual Dragon Quest games).  Neither one appeals to everyone, naturally.  But I would submit that a game with typical early Dragon Quest-tier plot/writing, Dragon Quest-style combat, and difficulty comparable to your average FF game would generally not be very popular barring extraordinary circumstances, like being the only RPG on its console.  (It sounds like I'm calling out Golden Sun, but GS plot is quite a bit above early DQ, surprisingly enough.)  Conversely, FF games get away with how generally shallow their gameplay is because people love the characters, stories, and general spectacle.

Earthbound was certainly extremely experimental in its setting, writing, and characters, at least by JRPG standards (WRPGs had already long since toyed with wacky interpretations of real world settings, albeit usually in a post-apocalyptic light), but its gameplay is fundamentally indistinguishable from Dragon Quest with the serial numbers filed off outside of a few subtle nuances like the rolling HP meter.

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2015, 07:53:55 AM »
I think outside of this site, most people play RPGs mainly for characters and story, and consider gameplay "whatever, as long as it's there and kinda fun" except in the case of specifically strategy games.  Seeing someone classify Earthbound as a NON-experimental game is... very surprising to me.

You make a good point about most people's aims for RPGs, at least from the western POV.  There certainly exist people outside the DL community who value gameplay over story and characters; Dragon's Den (the DQ fansite) and Insane Difficulty are pretty good examples of such communities.  (Yes, some people really love DQ gameplay for its simplicity.)  I would make the (completely unscientific) argument that average JRPG gameplay has gotten worse over time, with the caveat that while the *average* has gotten worse, the outlier games with fantastic gameplay have tended to get better and better.  A game with otherwise extremely safe gameplay (like Dragon Quest) needs something to elevate it above that for *some* niche, and that something is usually either characters and story (see Earthbound or Wild Arms) or a semblance of difficulty (most actual Dragon Quest games).  Neither one appeals to everyone, naturally.  But I would submit that a game with typical early Dragon Quest-tier plot/writing, Dragon Quest-style combat, and difficulty comparable to your average FF game would generally not be very popular barring extraordinary circumstances, like being the only RPG on its console.  (It sounds like I'm calling out Golden Sun, but GS plot is quite a bit above early DQ, surprisingly enough.)  Conversely, FF games get away with how generally shallow their gameplay is because people love the characters, stories, and general spectacle.

Earthbound was certainly extremely experimental in its setting, writing, and characters, at least by JRPG standards (WRPGs had already long since toyed with wacky interpretations of real world settings, albeit usually in a post-apocalyptic light), but its gameplay is fundamentally indistinguishable from Dragon Quest with the serial numbers filed off outside of a few subtle nuances like the rolling HP meter.

It seems like you're really hyper-focused on a particular element of "gameplay" and trying to jam everything into a that interpretation.  Where you say "gameplay" you really mean "the combat system."  Yeah, combat systems have been de-emphasized in games, but it's because the growth in storage space and processing power has enabled additional forms of gameplay to emerge.  If you use Skyrim as an example again, the actual combat is very pedestrian but there are many elements of gameplay that exist outside the combat engine that are just as engaging and often provide alternatives.

Is gameplay just combat?  Or does it encompass exploration and world modification and general dickery?  The fact that the results are not limited to Japanese products indicates that it's the latter.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 07:57:19 AM by Anthony Edward Stark »

Reiska

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2015, 11:23:55 AM »
I think outside of this site, most people play RPGs mainly for characters and story, and consider gameplay "whatever, as long as it's there and kinda fun" except in the case of specifically strategy games.  Seeing someone classify Earthbound as a NON-experimental game is... very surprising to me.

You make a good point about most people's aims for RPGs, at least from the western POV.  There certainly exist people outside the DL community who value gameplay over story and characters; Dragon's Den (the DQ fansite) and Insane Difficulty are pretty good examples of such communities.  (Yes, some people really love DQ gameplay for its simplicity.)  I would make the (completely unscientific) argument that average JRPG gameplay has gotten worse over time, with the caveat that while the *average* has gotten worse, the outlier games with fantastic gameplay have tended to get better and better.  A game with otherwise extremely safe gameplay (like Dragon Quest) needs something to elevate it above that for *some* niche, and that something is usually either characters and story (see Earthbound or Wild Arms) or a semblance of difficulty (most actual Dragon Quest games).  Neither one appeals to everyone, naturally.  But I would submit that a game with typical early Dragon Quest-tier plot/writing, Dragon Quest-style combat, and difficulty comparable to your average FF game would generally not be very popular barring extraordinary circumstances, like being the only RPG on its console.  (It sounds like I'm calling out Golden Sun, but GS plot is quite a bit above early DQ, surprisingly enough.)  Conversely, FF games get away with how generally shallow their gameplay is because people love the characters, stories, and general spectacle.

Earthbound was certainly extremely experimental in its setting, writing, and characters, at least by JRPG standards (WRPGs had already long since toyed with wacky interpretations of real world settings, albeit usually in a post-apocalyptic light), but its gameplay is fundamentally indistinguishable from Dragon Quest with the serial numbers filed off outside of a few subtle nuances like the rolling HP meter.

It seems like you're really hyper-focused on a particular element of "gameplay" and trying to jam everything into a that interpretation.  Where you say "gameplay" you really mean "the combat system."  Yeah, combat systems have been de-emphasized in games, but it's because the growth in storage space and processing power has enabled additional forms of gameplay to emerge.  If you use Skyrim as an example again, the actual combat is very pedestrian but there are many elements of gameplay that exist outside the combat engine that are just as engaging and often provide alternatives.

Is gameplay just combat?  Or does it encompass exploration and world modification and general dickery?  The fact that the results are not limited to Japanese products indicates that it's the latter.

You make a pretty good point there, and indeed the definition of what is "RPG gameplay" is something that's broadened quite a bit as technology has enabled it to.  I do often tend to abstract it to mean "the combat system", yes, because especially with the older JRPGs, that is where the overwhelming majority of the meaningful gameplay is (especially notable pre-PSX or so).  It isn't really until the PS2 era that you start seeing JRPGs other than Final Fantasy games break out of this mold in general, I feel; I certainly wouldn't count "exploration" as gameplay in the overwhelming majority of SNES RPGs as they simply have nothing notable (if anything at all) to find most of the time.  You do see some sorts of non-combat gameplay starting to manifest through the SNES era, though; examples include Lufia 2's dungeon puzzles and, for a more extreme example, Inindo: Way of the Ninja's midgame shift in focus once the main character is hired by a daimyo.  On the other end of the spectrum, of course, the classical example to pull up would be FF13, where (until you get to Gran Pulse, anyway) combat accounts for 100% of the meaningful gameplay.

Mentioning FF13 brings up another interesting point though: most RPG players at large are enamored with having the illusion of exploration or choice, even if there is in fact nothing to find, or if the options you're given are all ultimately meaningless.  One needs no greater evidence of this than comparing the fandom's reactions to FF10 and those to FF13; the latter game was criticized pretty heavily, on both sides of the ocean even from my understanding, for how oppressively linear the game is (almost all maps until Gran Pulse are singular corridors with maybe one or two branching paths with treasure, and there's no backtracking ever).  FF13's fans, on the other hand, appreciate FF13 for how tightly balanced its combat is (especially by FF franchise standards, as this is typically a weakness of the franchise), and this is (as far as I've noticed) the predominant view of the game here in the DL community.  I bring this comparison up, though, because FF10 is in fact almost exactly the same thing - the overwhelming majority of areas before the Calm Lands are strictly linear with the occasional branching path hiding treasure - and the Calm Lands are roughly about as far in the game as Gran Pulse is in FF13.

The only difference is that FF10 lets you backtrack (and in a few rare cases, you can gain things from doing so, even).

For an older example, we can even look at something like FF6, where the first half of the game (i.e. the World of Balance) is strictly linear to a fault.  Meanwhile, the World of Ruin is completely nonlinear (although there is a vague intended progression reflected in the difficulty of the randoms) and has meaningful exploration gameplay as such - assuming the player is unspoiled and has no strategy guide or walkthrough, they need to explore the world to find their party members, and this is undoubtedly meaningful gameplay that isn't combat.

That said, there is at least some portion of FF6's fanbase (disclaimer: myself included) who feels that the World of Balance is the height of the game, and the quality of the gameplay quickly degrades in the second half, either because they don't care for the nonlinearity of the World of Ruin arc, or because they dislike how the game balance tends to break apart as you pick up the variously overpowered pieces of gear FF6 throws you in the World of Ruin and get the high-end spells and generally break the game over your knee.  Even unspoiled, there are a LOT of ways to break FF6 and it's pretty hard not to stumble onto at least one of them.  (And if you get lost enough in trying to find the party members unspoiled, you may well just end up horribly overleveled and break the game THAT way.)  Simply put, character choice matters a lot more in the World of Balance, whereas by the World of Ruin, the individual abilities of the characters often become functionally irrelevant.

I'm not an expert on the subject (as I play very few WRPGs in general), but my general impression is that WRPGs in general have much more of these non-combat oriented kinds of gameplay.  (I don't get all that excited about world modification, so many modern WRPGs simply don't appeal to me.)  In the JRPG space, combat still comprises the majority of the gameplay in most of the games I've seen even in the more recent console eras, though notable exceptions like the later Persona games' time management/dating sim subgames or Atelier crafting systems definitely exist.  I submit though that the majority of my JRPG experience is PS1 era and earlier, and I have a relatively small list of completed RPGs from PS2 and later, so I'm not the greatest authority on the direction of the genre of late.

Cotigo

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2015, 12:41:31 PM »
There's a difference between being disappointed and being surprised.

Yeah, fair enough.

blahblahblah

Fenrir had a really good idea when he was talking about Dark Souls that I think is applicable here. The plot vs. gameplay divide is a false dichotomy, and at the risk of creating a false trichotomy, things people appreciate out of games can be boiled down into three elements. Challenge, Narrative, and Exploration. SNES RPG gameplay isn't very good, but within the limits of its system it can certainly be challenging. That's definitely what NEB and other people pick up on when they're grinding down FF5 Fiesta Challenges. Narrative is basically plot and tone and characterization and all that. For the definition of exploration, may I direct you toward a dictionary.

It's easy to conflate Gameplay with just the combat system, and to exclude the exploration aspect of it, but it does a disservice to Skyrim, FO:Bethesda, et. al when half the appeal of those games isn't combat nor plot but wandering through a big fuckoff world looking for what there is to find. Similarly, calling Earthbound uninventive completely ignores all the weird fucking shit going on that set the tone for the game and made people who fuckin' love the game*and its sequels love the game and its sequels. You could say that plot is similarly too reductive for that but then again you could say that seeing all the weird shit happening in Earthbound is kinda exploration and the whole framework I'm talking about breaks down but work with me here.

ON THE FLIPSIDE because I do think Rob is a little dismissive of the SNES gameplay, what people get out of the combat in these RPGs usually boils down into challenges. Aside from really terrible shitty games most of these games you can level up enough, twink out abilities then autobattle the entire game and skip it over, but the people who get something out of these games do so by restricting themselves and seeing what they can accomplish within the restricted framework of the game's combat system.

Really, though, and this is because I've come to realize that I get more out of games through exploration than anything, saying a game's "gameplay" sucks because the combat system sucks while ignoring that there's a whole fuckton of shit to explore is dumb and you're dumb for thinking it. That's like thinking GTA games offer nothing because the gameplay is basic (it is) and the narrative juvenile (it is); that's not what the games go for. You may not be the target audience for it but some people like to explore.

You're welcome for the enlightenment Fenrir just brought you through my mouth. Fingers. whatever

*Disclosure, I did not send in a list, but Earthbound would have been number 1.

I bet lots of people could tell you what various CT bosses did (Golem Twins, Tyrano, Magus, etc.),

I can tell you what exactly none of those bosses did. I assume the Golem Twins were two twins who were golems.

BTW
If anyone cared to know.

More people than I am comfortable interacting with cared to know. Good thing I've found a way to feel morally superior to all of them.

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2015, 04:13:59 PM »
FF6/FF10 vs FF13

The ability to poke around the world in FF6 or FF10 is pretty important to me as someone who gets into these mostly for their worldbuilding.  Yeah, you can't redirect the flow of the narrative in the WoB, but FF6 has a fair amount of extra things to discover if you poke around.  There's a lot of additional character details that are squirreled away that aren't immediately applicable to the plot but still interesting if you're into those kind of things.  It helps build a feeling of connection to the game world that isn't really there when you're being ushered down the tube as fast as possible.  It also makes the act of uncovering details a voluntary process and helps avoid bogging down the flow of the story with a lot of talking about the backstories of your party members or the reason Kefka is bonkers.  That's what's really missing for me, a reason to give a fuck about anything in FF13 when you get rushed through it as fast as possible and usually don't interact with anything there.

ON THE FLIPSIDE because I do think Rob is a little dismissive of the SNES gameplay, what people get out of the combat in these RPGs usually boils down into challenges. Aside from really terrible shitty games most of these games you can level up enough, twink out abilities then autobattle the entire game and skip it over, but the people who get something out of these games do so by restricting themselves and seeing what they can accomplish within the restricted framework of the game's combat system.

I'm not saying nobody cares about that stuff, I'm just here to speak for the people that bee-lined for the Moogle Charm and then never took it off and who got all excited when FF12 finally did away with random encounters.  Personally, trying to sell me on a role-playing game based on the challenge is like trying to sell me on a fighting game based on the backgrounds.  They can be neat but mostly I just want it not to get in the way of enjoying what I really like about the game. 

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2015, 05:12:13 PM »
Scar's list does reflect the demographics of the audience-  IE a lot of people our age who started on the NES/SNES.  I'm really curious to see the dataset; specifically games that didn't make the cut.
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Scar

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2015, 05:48:44 PM »
Is there a way I can import the open office spread sheet onto the site?
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SnowFire

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2015, 06:07:22 PM »
Paste it into a Google doc sheet, set sharing to "anyone with the link" or public.

http://www.google.com/sheets

Scar

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2015, 06:24:09 PM »
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Reiska

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2015, 01:24:05 AM »
FF6/FF10 vs FF13

The ability to poke around the world in FF6 or FF10 is pretty important to me as someone who gets into these mostly for their worldbuilding.  Yeah, you can't redirect the flow of the narrative in the WoB, but FF6 has a fair amount of extra things to discover if you poke around.  There's a lot of additional character details that are squirreled away that aren't immediately applicable to the plot but still interesting if you're into those kind of things.  It helps build a feeling of connection to the game world that isn't really there when you're being ushered down the tube as fast as possible.  It also makes the act of uncovering details a voluntary process and helps avoid bogging down the flow of the story with a lot of talking about the backstories of your party members or the reason Kefka is bonkers.  That's what's really missing for me, a reason to give a fuck about anything in FF13 when you get rushed through it as fast as possible and usually don't interact with anything there.

ON THE FLIPSIDE because I do think Rob is a little dismissive of the SNES gameplay, what people get out of the combat in these RPGs usually boils down into challenges. Aside from really terrible shitty games most of these games you can level up enough, twink out abilities then autobattle the entire game and skip it over, but the people who get something out of these games do so by restricting themselves and seeing what they can accomplish within the restricted framework of the game's combat system.

I'm not saying nobody cares about that stuff, I'm just here to speak for the people that bee-lined for the Moogle Charm and then never took it off and who got all excited when FF12 finally did away with random encounters.  Personally, trying to sell me on a role-playing game based on the challenge is like trying to sell me on a fighting game based on the backgrounds.  They can be neat but mostly I just want it not to get in the way of enjoying what I really like about the game.

To be fair, FF13 doesn't really have any less of that world building, it just expects you to read the datalog for it.  (Which is absolutely less interesting than having to find it in the world from a design perspective, I'll agree.)

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #88 on: June 06, 2015, 01:57:50 AM »
For that spreadsheet, if you just copy/pasted the top row (game names) to the last row (just under totals), it would make the whole thing more readable~

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2015, 05:09:16 AM »
Wow. I was #19. Why'd you text me so early in the project?<G>

Also, you put me down for BoF2 instead of BoF4 for my #8. Ew.

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2015, 06:19:48 AM »
Sorry, if I missed it, but I'm assuming that 5 people ranking a game at number 1 equaled 50 points? In that case, I really am super shocked that WA 4 did not get in. Disgaea was also something that I thought would be a lock.

I'm more shocked that Xenoblade not only got in, but did well. There are plenty of other games I find shocking, but can either be excused by being from a super popular series or nostalgia. Xenoblade just baffles me since it's like the intersection of the worst part of WRPGs and JRPGs. I am also shocked that Golden Sun 2 not only got in, but did better than Golden Sun 1?

Shining Force would be shocking minus that I'm sure the votes all came from the same location (Just like if Dragon Tear wasn't defunct, I would imagine that a lot more BoF games would have gotten in. Can't think of too many other large game specific sites that have forums that weren't included, although I wouldn't be surprised if there was one for N1).
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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2015, 01:45:36 PM »
Wild Arms 4 isn't very surprising. WA4 had a tiny print run and its influence is outsized here because it has a vocal couple of people who really love it. Half of the votes in the poll (3/6) came from the DL and only one vote from here was particularly high.

Xenoblade also isn't that surprising since it is one of a handful of big name JRPGs that isn't a FFXIII game to come out in the past few years. So it has a recency advantage (for some younger voters that don't own many systems it may be one of the few RPGs they've played) and I think a lot of people like it because of the intersection of JRPG nonsense and MMORPG combat, even though I tend to agree that this particular combination doesn't come together very well. It is still popular enough to warrant a 3DS port and a sequel for a nextgen console, so its inclusion here isn't crazy.

I still maintain that Bloodlines is the most surprising thing here, not just that it's on the list in the first place but because it is rated so highly, and I really like that game.

Scar

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2015, 04:04:16 PM »
Wow. I was #19. Why'd you text me so early in the project?<G>

Also, you put me down for BoF2 instead of BoF4 for my #8. Ew.


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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2015, 04:49:29 PM »
I still maintain that Bloodlines is the most surprising thing here, not just that it's on the list in the first place but because it is rated so highly, and I really like that game.

Well, people have talked about the fan patches and how broken the game was at release, but I'd just say that I don't think a ton of people played it at release (hence why Troika no longer exists).  The fan patches are an indication of a lasting fan base that promoted the game to people who were coming into a game that didn't have those launch problems thanks to their work.

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2015, 06:54:54 PM »
Wow how did you remember all that Zenny

I did think the list was going to be all bland "classics" like Lunar or Breath of fire, and am also surprised by some of these votes

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2015, 08:00:01 PM »
Hmm, I guess looking at the list, there are a few DLers would might have boosted WA 4 up but didn't vote.
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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2015, 08:05:57 PM »
Yeah, just going through the first two pages of the RPG Ratings thread there are like eight DLers with Wild Arms 4 in their top ten. So it goes. I know it's not that popular elsewhere because of its low print run + pissing off long-time Wild Arms fans by daring to be slightly different, but it is disappointing because it's legitimately one of the best RPGs in recent years. (It's so good that Rob and I agree on this!)

And yeah, late, but I certainly do agree with Fenrir's "trichotomy". I also never denied that people play games for exploration. (I'm not one of 'em.) It's certainly the main selling point of something like Xenoblade or something like Skyrim, yes. That said, when I referred to "gameplay" earlier I was not including exploration, myself. And I'm not the only one who defines it this way: again, I've seen both Skyrim and Xenoblade fans comment that they do not like the "gameplay" of said games (their words, not mine).

It's pretty clear from the votes that exploration was a pretty heavy influence for the people polled, though, hence the aforementioned two games being high. Which isn't too surprising, such games are disproportionately popular among the demographic which you're most likely to find on the internet (i.e. male, willing to spend 100+ hours on a game, etc.).

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2015, 09:38:36 PM »
Huh. You had me down for Neverwinter Nights 2 instead of Neverwinter Nights. Those are different games, you know? I like NWN1 and it's expansions. NWN2 is...okay at best, really.

Well, what I like is the fan-content made with them since the official campaigns of both are kinda meh. But NWN1 has good community mod stuff, 2 not as much.

EDIT: Wow okay, you also had me down for Monster Hunter 4, when I said Monster RANCHER 4. Two, uh, VERY FREAKING DIFFERENT games there.
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Scar

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #98 on: June 07, 2015, 05:10:00 AM »
Ha.

Hey, no one's perfect.

I'll fix it in the am.
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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2015, 05:24:42 PM »
...well, I was gonna say that I'm embarrassed to say that I actually forgot to include WA4 on my list, but I appear to not have been counted at all! Wrecked. >_>