Author Topic: Top 10 poll  (Read 9031 times)

Scar

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2015, 05:31:30 AM »
OK.

Survey is complete.

http://www.sporcle.com/games/RadShadow/the-most-favorite-rpgs

I'm still going to do a write up of the top 25, but here's the little quiz I made.

See if/where the games you had ranked in the top 92!

There was over 430 RPGs by 350 people that submitted, but I made this quiz for only the games that got at least 50 total votes. That cut out 75% of the games in the survey, ah well!

Hope you enjoy. The write up might take a while to finish.
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jsh357

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2015, 05:56:13 AM »
46, though several I guess were misspelled and I was typing on the phone.

Ranmilia

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2015, 09:27:30 AM »
Neat list!  The diversity definitely surprised me, a lot of things I didn't think would possibly be on there were.  Got 79 on the quiz, plus a couple more that I strongly suspected were there but couldn't find an input it accepted (could swear I tried just "Nocturne," and FE games should accept numbers...).

Most shame at missing: Nier and Barkley (though there was no way I'd think Barkley actually made the list, wow!)
Most shame at being on the list: Witcher 3 (really, people?  I'm sure it's good, but it wasn't even *out* at the poll time!)

Sierra

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2015, 10:37:40 AM »
57/92.

As always, :blinkblink: at Suikoden 2 being so high on such a list, let alone above the rest of its series (I've always considered it squarely below 3 and 5). It's a good game, you guys. It's a good game. That's it.

#1's presence isn't surprising, but its position is. I guess it shouldn't be. Nostalgia rules. I like the game a lot, but...guys?

#3 I'm really surprised is that high.

#23 being vastly higher than its sequel = as always, people disappoint me.

I typed Arcanum on a whim and was surprised to find it there at all. Ditto for #30 (and that high, too).

If there was only going to be one Xenosaga present, I wouldn't guessed that one.

I feel shame at not guessing #90, but I suppose I never thought of it as an RPG. This goes for a number of things I didn't guess.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2015, 11:05:03 AM »
no Disgaea games... ;_;

poll is flawed.

got 68 in 20 minutes. Not overly surprised at the results at all. Lack of any N1 games aside, that is. And shock of shocks! Polling the Shining Force forums and both Shining Force 1 AND 2 are there!

Also, lol at "Pokemon" being just one entry? Is that EVERY Pokemon game?

I'll bet Disgaea would have made the list if it got counted in aggregate... >.>;;
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 11:30:59 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

Reiska

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2015, 11:11:20 AM »
Neat list!  The diversity definitely surprised me, a lot of things I didn't think would possibly be on there were.  Got 79 on the quiz, plus a couple more that I strongly suspected were there but couldn't find an input it accepted (could swear I tried just "Nocturne," and FE games should accept numbers...).

Most shame at missing: Nier and Barkley (though there was no way I'd think Barkley actually made the list, wow!)
Most shame at being on the list: Witcher 3 (really, people?  I'm sure it's good, but it wasn't even *out* at the poll time!)

Witcher 3 released May 19th, and Scar was still collecting responses on May 27th.  So it was out for part of it.

The Duck

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2015, 12:56:28 PM »
Sporcle quizzes always are a test of my recall ability, which is generally pretty shitty. I tended to start by series and then by company/publisher and then by trying to think up games by console, and some of the games that I did know on the list fell through the cracks.

I got 82 and I could have gotten a few more but some of the answers are finicky (Xenoblade Chronicles, Lunar Silver Star Story Complete?!) and I didn't remember the subtitles for all the goddamn Fire Emblem games. Never would have guessed #91a and surely would have given up before typing in the entire name. #75 NWN 2 but not the expansion is surprising and so is Alpha Protocol but Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlinesin the top 30 is really strange to me even though I like that game. I'm guessing you polled groups that were strongly PC oriented?

This group's quirks aren't really on here. The DL is a lot more Wild Armsy than everyone else and at this rate would have had Record Keeper #1.

Witcher 3 on here so early is kind of funny. Maybe I should play it.

You would think the Souls dudes would also have Bloodbourne or DS2 represented on their lists as well?

It would be cool to see the entire dataset. I suspect the reason why #1 is so high is that it probably is somewhere on a high proportion of the lists even if it isn't necessarily on the top, although there's a big gap in votes between that and number 2. People really love that game though and it's fairly uncontroversial (unlike some of the ones under it) so it does make some sense that it on top.

Captain K

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2015, 07:11:43 PM »
34/92, got tired of it after 10 minutes.  Amusingly enough didn't guess number one or number 10.  Only one of my personal top 10 was in the top 10, that being the highest-rated Final Fantasy (and I'm so glad it placed so highly).

I'm not surprised at what number one is, but it's never been a game I cared for.

VySaika

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2015, 08:23:14 PM »
Got 62. Missed some obvious series that I like so feeling a bit dumb, but got some others that I wouldn't normally expect myself to remember. Got #1 by accident trying to type in something else(it picked up the abbreviation) otherwise I'd have forgotten about the game. ^_^;
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Scar

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2015, 08:27:26 PM »
A lot of people just said Pokemon (the series) on their lists so it's the one franchise I said fuck it and allowed every vote to count as one.

I know it's not perfect, but whatevs.

Also, Djinn, don't bet on Disgaea getting on the lists even with the entire series being counted as a whole. lol

I found it interesting how high the number 3 game got voted. I'm surprised so many games ranked higher then FF7 given how wide of a group I polled.

My list had 7 of my 10 games making the top 92. Only 3 of my 10 made the top 10 though. 6 made it in the top 25...
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Cotigo

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2015, 10:26:30 PM »
#23 being vastly higher than its sequel = as always, people disappoint me.

Dude, the game was fucking unfinished and completely fell apart at the end. Yeah, there's a content restoration patch, but did you really expect people to put the unfinished game over the game that actually was given time for its development cycle to finish?

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2015, 11:04:34 PM »
Quote
#3 I'm really surprised is that high.

Why? It's extremely well regarded and was one of the last hits on the PS2. I mean there have been more than one spinoff game made about it for a reason.
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The Duck

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2015, 11:37:45 PM »
#23 being vastly higher than its sequel = as always, people disappoint me.

Dude, the game was fucking unfinished and completely fell apart at the end. Yeah, there's a content restoration patch, but did you really expect people to put the unfinished game over the game that actually was given time for its development cycle to finish?
Eh, several of the PC games on the list require mods to be playable (#30 in particular). It's not unreasonable to assume that the people voting on this are savvy enough to implement patches and mods. The characterization and writing are flat out superior in the sequel and what is there is more substantive than in the first game even in its unfinished state.

Cotigo

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2015, 11:46:41 PM »
I agree 100% about the quality of KotOR2 over KotOR1, but if you didn't know about the content restoration patch at the time you played the game I can totally see the majority of people being disappointed enough with the travesty of an ending to not like it as much as 1, even if you heard about the content restoration patch after the fact. Hell, I definitely think KotOR2 is a better game and I haven't even played with the content restoration.  But even setting that aside, you can't even do that if you played the console version, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that the majority of people on the sites Scar polled played on console. That said, no I don't believe the vast majority of people will have played with the patch, and pretending that it's surprising the majority of people Scar polled put the finished, no-patch-needed game over the sequel is pretty dang myopic.

EDIT: In the interest of fairness, it is not nearly as myopic as being surprised that no N1 games made the list. Come on, DJ, even HERE half the people don't like the games, and this place creams itself over JRPGs more than most.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 11:50:41 PM by Makkotah »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2015, 12:23:46 AM »
It would be cool to see the entire dataset. I suspect the reason why #1 is so high is that it probably is somewhere on a high proportion of the lists even if it isn't necessarily on the top, although there's a big gap in votes between that and number 2. People really love that game though and it's fairly uncontroversial (unlike some of the ones under it) so it does make some sense that it on top.

Yeah almost nobody dislikes the #1 there and a lot of people like it so it seems like a safe bet to top a list like this. (It just missed my own personal top ten.) FF7 is the other main possibility I suppose but it certainly has more detractors, particularly among more "hardcore" groups for lack of a better term (e.g. it's easily the most popular RPG if you polled GameFAQs visitors, but won't win in a place like the DL or Neogaf or whatever).

I'm quite disappointed WA4 didn't make the list, I figured DLers would push it over for sure (well, depending on how many of the WA4 fans sent in lists to Scar, I dunno who did and who didn't). Otherwise the list is what it is. There are some things that make me roll my eyes and some things that make me happy, it balances out.

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The Duck

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2015, 01:07:58 AM »
I agree that the first wave of people who have played it likely were primarily on the XBox (the PC version of 2 came out a year later) but digital distribution services like Steam and GoG have given the series new legs when they go on sale for $3 each. The Steam page itself even tells you to use the restoration patch. We're also talking about a 10+ year old game now so you would expect people who care enough about the game to put it on a top ten list would have had the opportunity to play it with the patch by now.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 01:22:53 AM by The Duck »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2015, 01:13:47 AM »
But as far as making a list like this goes, I do think an initially buggy game is going to be at somewhat of a disadvantage. It'll lose a few people who might have put it on their list because they had a bad initial experience with it. Being later told "oh there's a patch" isn't really good enough.

(Also I think lists like this inherently bias towards earlier games in a given series, more nostalgia and all that, for all that that is something I pretty much share Cid's disdain for.)

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Sierra

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2015, 01:15:35 AM »
Yeah, if there was going to be any WA game on the master list, I would've figured DL input* would steer results toward one of the later entries (excepting 5). I guess this is one of those "everyone else played WA1 when it was like the only RPG on the PSX and then didn't follow the series afterwards" cases.

(*WA3 was on my list)

#23 being vastly higher than its sequel = as always, people disappoint me.

Dude, the game was fucking unfinished and completely fell apart at the end. Yeah, there's a content restoration patch, but did you really expect people to put the unfinished game over the game that actually was given time for its development cycle to finish?

There's a difference between being disappointed and being surprised. It's assumed that I have unusual priorities, and I'd expect the average gamer to prefer little luxuries like a properly finished game over beautiful messes like KOTOR2 (especially if the former case is maybe not very impressive at all on the story front but does let you powergame with little to no attempt at moral complications; so far as I can tell, this is the sole appeal of Elder Scrolls games and their ilk). That doesn't mean I'm not going to shake my head at it anyway. Hell, I'm frankly just impressed that this list, unlike all other such things I've seen, actually put New Vegas over FO3.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 01:18:30 AM by El Cideon »

The Duck

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2015, 01:30:58 AM »
Quote
Hell, I'm frankly just impressed that this list, unlike all other such things I've seen, actually put New Vegas over FO3.
You and Fen (and I) are some of the only people I've interacted with who have this big gulf in opinion of New Vegas (which is fucking great) and Fallout 3 (which is huge empty bland horseshit). Dunno about Gref.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2015, 01:34:30 AM »
As an outsider I associate FONV >>> FO3 as the norm among people who started with the earlier games, and FO3 > FONV (usually due to bugs?) with the people who started with 3.

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Reiska

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2015, 02:18:56 AM »
But as far as making a list like this goes, I do think an initially buggy game is going to be at somewhat of a disadvantage. It'll lose a few people who might have put it on their list because they had a bad initial experience with it. Being later told "oh there's a patch" isn't really good enough.

(Also I think lists like this inherently bias towards earlier games in a given series, more nostalgia and all that, for all that that is something I pretty much share Cid's disdain for.)

I picked up on a couple apparent biases, none of which especially surprised me:
1) A general bias towards earlier games in a given series when those game were at least passable relative to their era of release (e.g. WA1)
2) For series which span multiple console generations, a general (if somewhat weak) bias towards the first game in that series of a given console generation (e.g. FF7)
3) A general bias towards specific games which came very late in a given console's lifecycle, as well (e.g. Persona 4)
4) A general, fairly strong bias towards specific "generic JRPG" titles on consoles that had very few such games that were not ports released for them (e.g. Golden Sun games on the GBA, Bravely Default on 3DS, Skies of Arcadia and Tales of Symphonia on Dreamcast/Gamecube both, Phantasy Star 4 on Genesis, Tales of Vesperia on Xbox 360, etc.)

I've long held a general impression that among the internet at large, most JRPG fans seem to value execution over innovation to a degree; that is, they'd rather have moderately well executed but unambitious/stale gameplay (like Suikoden 1/2 or WA1 or Earthbound) over either something more experimental that ended up having significant flaws in execution (like Suikoden 3 or FF8) or something that massively changed the character of the gameplay from what series fans had become accustomed to (notably Wild Arms 4).  There is, for example, a reasonably large (or at least vocal) subset of the WA fanbase of which I'm aware that hated WA4 for doing away with the style of dungeon puzzles found in WA1-3 and ACF.  (As you'd guess, most of them are also rabid Lufia 2 fans.)

The market during the SNES and PS1 era would seem to bear this trend out for at least that period of time; consider the large number of games from that era which have conventional, unambitious turn-based menu combat in the Dragon Quest mold, even if they aren't explicitly DQ clones (like, say, Earthbound undoubtedly is), and consider that most of these games are extremely popular.  However, if the PS2 and later eras are any indication, the fanbases for such games, while vocal, aren't enough to fund development costs for such games on modern consoles without some other factor to draw appeal from outside of that niche, as evidenced by how few of these kinds of games appeared on later platforms relatively, combined with the growing strong bias against launching new RPG IP on home consoles due to rising development costs.  Case in point: the only JRPG franchise I can think of that started in the 6th generation (PS2/GC/Xbox) and has continued beyond it is Disgaea, and the only JRPG franchises I can think of that started in the 7th generation (PS3/Wii/360) and have continued beyond are Hyperdimension Neptunia and Xenoblade (I consider the latter fundamentally distinct enough from previous Xeno- titles to be effectively its own entity).  (If you can think of others, by all means, please fill me in.)  Disgaea somewhat heavily relies on appeal to a very specific demographic (enjoyment of grinding in a game-breaking fashion) while Neptunia very heavily relies on appealing to the moe anime otaku demographic, and neither they nor Xenoblade have anything really like what I'd consider "traditional JRPG" gameplay (the only games with such gameplay in recent memory that have been localized are pretty much Bravely Default and Final Fantasy Dimensions).

General observations, amusements, or things on the list I found surprising:
1) I was happy to see Persona 4 top Persona 3, as in many circles on the internet people tend to really overhype Persona 3 for being edgier.
2) For the reasons described above, the placement of S1 and S2 doesn't surprise me much.  S1 and S2 are both unambitious generic JRPGs in gameplay, and fairly well executed at it (obviously S2 is more polished in this regard, and appropriately ranks higher).  S3 had the weird pair mechanic and possibility of friendly fire which I know I'm not the only person who didn't like it, S4 doesn't really need to be explained, and it's reasonable to assume that many casual fans of the series who played and liked S1 and S2 and didn't like S3 or S4 may simply have just never given S5 a chance.
3) Likewise with Wild Arms.  WA1 undoubtedly gets a large boost from being the first competent RPG on the PS1 to be localized, and is similarly an unambitious generic JRPG in gameplay with the addition of dungeon puzzles (pulling in the Lufia 2 demographic).  While WA2, WA3 and WA:ACF retained the dungeon puzzles, they took some fairly large steps away from generic by mixing up the world map mechanics; it's probably a safe bet that at least some casual fans of WA1 saw this in WA2, didn't like it, and didn't try any further entries in the series.
4) Skies of Arcadia's placement is probably attributable to it being the only traditional menu-based JRPG on the GameCube (and being one of the only such RPGs on the Dreamcast, as well, but I suspect the GameCube has a lot more to do with it).  Tales of Symphonia also strongly benefits from this despite being an ARPG.
5) Likewise for Golden Sun 1 and 2.
6) I am very surprised Barkley had that much acclaim - not because of its quality, but because of its sheer relative obscurity.\
7) Witcher 3 probably is subject to a healthy dose of new release skew.

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2015, 02:50:11 AM »
I've long held a general impression that among the internet at large, most JRPG fans seem to value execution over innovation to a degree; that is, they'd rather have moderately well executed but unambitious/stale gameplay (like Suikoden 1/2 or WA1 or Earthbound) over either something more experimental that ended up having significant flaws in execution (like Suikoden 3 or FF8) or something that massively changed the character of the gameplay from what series fans had become accustomed to (notably Wild Arms 4). 

EarthBound's popularity has very little to do with its gameplay.  Other than the times where you are trying to sprint through menus to kill the last guy/heal a party member as their health rolls to 0, nothing in it draws in fans, and people aren't really too attached to it except as a sort of Literature of the Moment thing. 

I would venture to say that people would love EarthBound about the same if it had its combat system, FF6's combat system, Star Ocean 1's combat system...  really, the gameplay of EarthBound is secondary. Look at Chrono Trigger: widely beloved, but most of the gameplay is something you breeze through without paying too much attention to it.  The guys who made it knew that you weren't coming to Chrono Trigger for some intricate gameplay experience, you probably like it for its fantastic art or its fucking awesome score.  EarthBound is kind of the same way; they were making a 16-bit roleplaying game and what they were good at was creating an atmosphere through the sprites, backgrounds, writing and music.

I would say the importance of gameplay in how people look at things is increasingly important as time advances and the expectations of complexity increase.  Could you get away with releasing EarthBound today?  Maybe as a weird indie art title, but not a major release.  We have higher expectations of complexity for games now because we know the capacity is there.  There aren't any RPGs on the SNES that I would say have gameplay that adds to the experience, but some of them are smart enough to keep it from getting in the way.

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2015, 02:55:02 AM »
Putting the list I sent in at the bottom here, all 10 got in somewhere.  I valued originality a lot... and put EB at #2.  I think outside of this site, most people play RPGs mainly for characters and story, and consider gameplay "whatever, as long as it's there and kinda fun" except in the case of specifically strategy games.  Seeing someone classify Earthbound as a NON-experimental game is... very surprising to me.

No Phantasy Star on the list also surprises me, thinking more about it.  What with the Shining Force fansite putting both games of that series on the board, I'd have figured they'd share some love with the other big Sega RPG series.  Guess not though.  Edit: I'm really dumb and didn't see PS4!  Nevermind!

As for KOTOR 2 vs other games... the first version of the content restoration patch came out in 2009, 5 years after the game's release, and didn't really restore all that much until the 2012 and 2014 versions.  Compare to Bloodlines, which, while it needs patches to be playable, *had* those patches available practically at release and every few months thereafter to the present day.  (Being a PC only game helps, of course.)

1. Final Fantasy Tactics
2. Earthbound
3. Planescape: Torment
4. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
5. Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines
6. Dark Souls
7. Final Fantasy 6 (US 3)
8. Breath of Fire 4
9. Chrono Trigger
10. Fallout
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 03:16:16 AM by Sir Alex »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2015, 02:59:41 AM »
EDIT: PS4 was on the list, Alex.


Mmm I'd say CT's gameplay is notable enough and a part of what pushes it above many other SNES RPGs. I bet lots of people could tell you what various CT bosses did (Golem Twins, Tyrano, Magus, etc.), much moreso than many other games from the time. And there's absolutely no way you can argue that FF5's gameplay didn't add to its experience. The game doesn't have the benefit of nostalgia but is still very popular, and I don't think that's for the adventures of Bartz (see how big Fiesta is). I guess you could argue a class system is kinda different from gameplay in the pure combat sense, though.

Similarly I think there's a lot of games released today where gameplay is pretty secondary. Does anyone really like Skyrim's combat? I've seen its fans insult it. Or to pick a JRPG example, Xenoblade... I've definitely seen multiple big Xenoblade fans say "yeah the game's gameplay isn't very good, but it's an RPG and I play those for other things". There's probably going to be higher complexity than there is for an Earthbound, I guess, but not necessarily that much and certainly not for the time. (Also Dragon Quest 9 is a thing that exists, sadly.)

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Scar

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Re: Top 10 poll
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2015, 03:30:21 AM »
BTW

1st place votes

#1 Got 26
#2 got 26
#3 got 12
#4 got 12
#5 got 17
#6 got 11

If anyone cared to know.
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