Shift Tournament 2: Week 2- Gato's not giving up those silver points!

[superaielman]

Uryu>Kanji's Shadow
Yulyana 4, Wraith 2
Orlouge>Tir
Elc 3, Cid 2

Arc>KOS
Hugo>Wakka
Claude 4, Jessica 3 (tiebreak)
White Fiend 4, Dehuai 3

Et>Momo
Pamela>Tiki
Heinkel>Red Mage
Lilka>Sasarai

Jeane>Luna
Vivi>Fred
Palom 4, Hojo 3
Bart>Kellam

Kelvena>Yumei
Mojo>Lorenta
Allen>Tony
Maribelle>Jelanda


Godlike:

Souji Seta (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13)
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Heat (DDS2)
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD)
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4)

High Heavy:

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3)
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8)
Alicia (VP2) vs Sharon (LoL2)


Low Heavy

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN)
Nash Latkje (S3) vs Tohru Adachi (Pers4)
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2)

Middle

Pepperoni (MK2)  vs Lita (BoD7)
Teddie (Pers4) vs Nanaki (FF7)
Michiah (FE13) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC)
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia (SO3)

:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4)
Mint Adenade (ToP) vs Nanami (VP1)
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2)
Arthur (SF1) vs Gato (CT)

[superaielman]

Godlike:

Souji Seta (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13)- Kneejerk? I'll listen to arguments here.
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Heat (DDS2)
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD)- Too much damage.
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4)- Surely.

High Heavy:

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3)- Unless EnC caught Grand Slam.
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)- I... think? Ray may well drop Forgiver Sign below a OHKO which would be trouble.
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8)- BAD matchup for Ceci.
Alicia (VP2) vs Sharon (LoL2)- Alicia's healing game is pretty outmatched by this field in general.


Low Heavy

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN)- Don't allow SP, Rose is a middle to me.
Nash Latkje (S3) vsTohru Adachi (Pers4)- Spoils. Mudoon handles business here.
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)- Shield+durability+ITE.
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2)- Nooooooooooope.

Middle

Pepperoni (MK2)  vs Lita (BoD7)- Too much status offhand.
Teddie (Pers4) vs Nanaki (FF7)- Teddie might stave off a 2HKO with defensive buffing and might be able to use the Bear Claw to avoid limits but man. Nanaki is so much faster and a limit or doubling at the wrong time is death.
Michiah (FE13) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC)- Don't give michiah Nos so this is easy, but even so. Kyle can buff to a OHKO here and I think he lives long enough for that.
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia (SO3)-Nope!

:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4)
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2)- Seal Evil. Or just outslug with the healing to tip things, Celine is fucking awful. How awful you say?  She only does like 800 more damage with her best spell then Claude does with his PHYSICAL. jfc
Arthur (SF1) vs Gato (CT)- Arthur was aggressively bad even by SF1 standards.

[Pyro]

Godlike:

Souji Seta (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13): I am unsure, but I think Orphan's durability and debuffs swing it his way? Though Souji has some nasty debuffs too!
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Heat (DDS2)
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Oogie-Boogie (BD): Hey, unspoilerized. Why?
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4): Shadow Flare will KO inevitably. Even if he transforms Sephiroth can probably take Ryu4's Kaiser? It was susceptible to gravity unlike BoF3... (where Gravity checked status res)?

High Heavy:

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3): Grand... Slam? Is that really 100% ID?
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8): I don't think Tana one-rounds even with doubling taken raw...
Alicia (VP2) vs Sharon (LoL2): Status I suppose. Alicia can probably punch through a limit.


Low Heavy

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN): 100% ID.
Nash Latkje (S3) vs Tohru Adachi (Pers4): Surely? Surely....
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1): Hmm. Good one. Delita is pretty good even scaled against in-game units at the time he's around (No Thief Hats, lower damage available and so on).
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2)

Middle

Pepperoni (MK2)  vs Lita (BoD7): Lita is all about status. Without that I don't think she can win...
Teddie (Pers4) vs Nanaki (FF7): Limits should give Teddie problems...
Michiah (FE13) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC): I am assuming Kyle can't buff to an OHKO here.
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia (SO3)

:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4)
Mint Adenade (ToP) vs Nanami (VP1)
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2): Gods.
Arthur (SF1) vs Gato (CT):
Gato is 80% Durability, Arthur is 67.8%.
Gato is slower than Arthur.
Gato counters physicals.
Gato's MIssile Punch is 20% damage.
Arthur's Thwacks are 23% damage, but he wants to use Ice Magic to avoid counters, which is 17% damage.

Arthur Ice Magics until Gato is a physical will kill. That should work. Arthur's pathetic 6HKO magic damage saves him.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yu Narukami (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13) - Orphan's status/debuff parade is way too much for Yu to handle, coupled with the obscene durability. Orphan does far better against High Godlike PCs than bosses as a rule of thumb.
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Heat (DDS2) - Tentacle stalling ain't something Chris is geared to deal with.
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD) - Orlandu can't even survive a Slaughter, let alone an Acedia => Zeta Flare string.
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4) - uh I THINK Sephiroth should have something that lets him win turn one here.

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3) - I'm in the same camp as Random in that I see Grand Slam as unevadable (hits all heights, so can't possibly miss even in combos). That's enough.
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - Oh dear.
Cecilia Lynne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8) - EDIT: Huh, Ceci's durability is actually that low? Yeah, 0.8 pdur Tana one-rounds no big.
Alicia (VP2) vs Sharon (LoL2) - I'm pretty skeptical of Alicia's ability to dodge Sharon's Mystic Art range even with allowing better weapons than first considered (which I'm amenable to, but requires actual numbers to use).

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN) - Ow, typing disadvantage.
Nash Latkje (S3) vs Tohru Adachi (Pers4) - I'm very skeptical of Nash's ability to outslug under Silent Lake, considering his only comes up on TURN TWO. Without Silent Lake, he just eats Mudoon.
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1) - Delita doesn't even 2HKO Flay. That doesn't work.
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2) - Being doubled and one-rounded by Cordelia is such a great start. Elena may even be faster with Nightmare Ball, but I don't think she can effectively keep Cordy from getting a turn and shredding her into tiny ribbons.

Pepperoncino (MK2)  vs Lita (BoD7) - Man, Pepperoni blocks sleep, that's not a good start for Lita. She might even try to play something funny with her draining, but I don't think it's even full, so it doesn't work out.
Teddie (Pers4) vs Nanaki/Red XIII (FF7) - Well, Red 2HKOs, for starters. And Teddie's damage is -not- what he wants to dodge Stardust Ray.
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia Esteed (SO3) - Ice Needles if nothing else, I suppose.

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4)
Mint Adenade (ToP) vs Nanami (VP1) - I'm -pretty- sure this is the kind of fight Mint can win, considering Nanami lacks Heal.
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2) - Good lord.
Arthur (SF1) vs Gato (CT) - I AT LEAST HOPE SO.

[Nephrite]

On Teddie vs. Red, I'm honestly not sure where "Teddie's Damage is horrible" is coming from? It's not... really bad at all?

But either way, I see the match going something like this:

Red attacks, let's say he does 55% to Teddie.
Teddie uses Marakukaja
Red attacks, does 35% (I don't know, was Limited Moon affected by defenses?)
Teddie uses Diarahan (Raku 2)
Red attacks, does 35%
Teddie uses Bufudyne for... what, let's say 30%? More? I don't know exactly, but I think it'd be a little more unless I'm crazy. (Raku 1)
Red attacks, does 35% (where is Red's limit bar at this point?)
Teddie heals (Raku 1)
Red gets a double here?

I mean, I might be crazy, but I don't really see how Red kills Teddie, even with a Limit. Unless Stardust Ray was a lot better than I remember it being?

Maybe I'm underselling Red's damage? I don't know. I'm not sure if his attacks are ITD or not or just increased by MP, does anyone know?

[Random Consonant]

Godlike:

Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD) - lol
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4)

High Heavy:

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3) - knocks him out of the park
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - probably
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8) - e2 son of e: or wa1 def could matter slightly more than i thought

Low Heavy

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN) - ID
Nash Latkje (S3) vs Tohru Adachi (Pers4)
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1) - i trust in elfboy insticts
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2)

Middle

Pepperoni (MK2) vs Lita (BoD7) - Probably, Lita damage kind of horrible here.
Teddie (Pers4) vs Nanaki (FF7) - probably
Micaiah (FE10) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC) - eh sure

15 Silver Points:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4) - no
Mint Adenade (ToP) vs Nanami (VP1) - Nanami pressure is so bad
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2)
Arthur (SF1) vs Gato (CT) - Gato is 0.4 PCHP by my scaling, so.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Neph: Auto-Taru on the boys + Yu existing makes the mages look pretty bad for damage. Tarukaja Bufudyne is likely a 4HKO at best, and, even if you don't, he has trouble chipping, since he gets 2HKOed at base when not under Raku and is slower. Teddie even -can- survive a Stardust Ray under Marakukaja, but he gets heal-locked by Fire 3 in that case, and once Marakukaja runs out, he's in so much trouble, since he has to heal AND recast it. He has a lot of trouble making any leeway there (and if he triggers Earth Rave, -nothing- really can save him).

[Dark Holy Elf]

I definitely think Grand Slam is being seriously overrated here. As far as ID moves go it's wretched in what it actually hits; I believe the first dungeon you have it is damn near the only one which has a remotely durable (read: not OHKOable by common magic) enemy vulnerable to ID (go through the bestiary for yourself and see). The three-zone thing is pretty darn irrelevant as any mid-height move hits all enemies with the exception of the corner-case of an aerial enemy which has been knocked up, and mid-height moves are really common and I hope they don't get ITE hype.

I am fine with the move in general of course, some people get moves that translate well and that's okay. But it seriously does not deserve shaky judgement calls (although one could argue that Tidus' E&C doesn't either, but meh ST physicals with status attached are literally a thing it can spoil in-game, comes up against some of the superbosses even).

[superaielman]

I don't think Teddie's damage is the issue. At the absolute worst he slaps on the Bear Claws and lets the 10% damage reflection rate avoid a limit. The issue in that fight is just surviving; Red has a solid 2HKO on Teddie and he has to constantly juggle buffing defense, healing, and dealing with the risk of doubleturns.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

E&C doesn't dodge anything that isn't a ST physical that rams into in-game evade. SH3 Grand Slam doesn't ram into its in-game evade. I could see making that call against FE evade (and I may), but seriously not FFX E&C, which isn't even as comprehensive as the game's evade stat is (and FFX has a fair amount of unevadable attacks as it stands). The fact that very few relevant SH3 enemies are vulnerable to ID doesn't really sway me here, either.

[Dark Holy Elf]

SH3 Grand Slam doesn't ram into its in-game evade.

What? If true that's far more important than any irrelevant comments about hitting three zones, but I don't think that's true. I'm pretty sure SH evade works on everything physical in the game. But I'm too lazy to check myself. (Find enemy with Arc Mirage, Grand Slam them repeatedly... actually it shoudln't be that bad if Hilda has an earlygame weapon, maybe I will...)

(Also for what it's worth and to reply to your original comment, you could engineer a combo which not even Grand Slam will hit but you shouldn't do this, you need to push an aerial enemy up twice, or ground enemy up three times. Sadly I have done the former by mistake before. #poorlifedecisions)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

SH3 Grand Slam doesn't ram into its in-game evade.

What? If true that's far more important than any irrelevant comments about hitting three zones, but I don't think that's true. I'm pretty sure SH evade works on everything physical in the game. But I'm too lazy to check myself. (Find enemy with Arc Mirage, Grand Slam them repeatedly... actually it shoudln't be that bad if Hilda has an earlygame weapon, maybe I will...)

I've honestly never seen any SH2 -or- 3 enemy dodge physical skills ever unless they were out of the possible combo hitting zones, and I've seen enemies dodge basic physicals -a lot- in SH3 (it actually cost me a couple resets in a few South America dungeons!). Granted, it's been a long time since I've played the game, so I can -definitely- be mistaken.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'll test it this weekend, I suppose. I think I've seen them evaded (I have memories of seeing one of Yuri's techs dodged, and one of Frank's... but those are both distant, "don't quote me" memories) but honestly am not certain as SH evade is pretty darn rare without evasion buffs.

[Random Consonant]

SH2/3 evade is complete dogshit in my experience and only applies to basic physicals.  I'm not sure why that should matter more however, she's not attacking into SH3 evasion.  But then again people seem to be weird about that sort of thing.

(I mean deride the hit zone argument as much as you like, it's not really a great argument and I'll be the first to admit it, but pretending it's any flakier than any of the other stuff that gets underserved automatic ITE credit around here is something I have to roll my eyes at)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

If Grand Slam actually -does- ram into evade, that would change my vote instantly. That's what my argument really boils down to, since it's a check of evade comprehensiveness. But really, see Random for more specifics. Since FFX evade isn't amazingly comprehensive itself (it -matters-, but it also faces a lot of ITE in-game and E&C applies to less stuff than the evade itself does), I think it's not unfair to make that check. Were we talking about FE/SRW evade or Alert, we likely wouldn't even be talking about this.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh certainly.

And for the record I absolutely agree that some games deserve more evade credit than others, but FFX and SH don't seem so horribly far apart on this front as either game is from FE or SRW or whatever. I just don't like any view which makes Grand Slam more accurate than, say, Frank's Demon Bomb.

[Dhyerwolf]

Definitely don't remember SH 2/3 techs being evade subject, which is why anytime an enemy against ArcMirage is so lolzy. I could be wrong. For the record, I would likely see Tidus evading this (since while FFX does have ITE, IIRC, it's not exactly common enough that it's an option for most physical using enemies? And avoiding SH evade gets little credit when every PC can do it), which leaves Hilda trying to likely play a buffing game and see if it sticks.

[Pyro]

If you don't let Tidus weapon-switch, then his first turn is to Slow Hilda surely (she can't block it I don't think). Then Haste Himself. Then QH-away. Maybe skip Haste if he can KO sooner by starting QH-ing after Slow. Fat Hilda (Skinny Hilda gets ripped apart by Sonic Steel) would tend to want to use magic ASAP to strip him of the chance to KO easily (Caldabolg is ITD so attacking is the best def buff imagineable!). But her magic isn't good, so she may not hurt his damage enough to really help... her magic damage is actually about 24% PCHP... Tidus' Mdur is ~74%. So one spell brings Tidus down to 3470 damage per hit... A second spell brings it down to ~2000 per hit.  But if Tidus gets Slow+Haste up, Hilda will be looking at 12x that. Surely even Fat Hilda can't really stand up to that. Especially since an Overdrive is going to come up by that point.

So Hilda needs to ID him through E&C to win.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, sans Grand Slam, I can't remotely fathom a way Hilda could possibly win the fight. Hence why this hinges on how you see E&C interacting with GS.

[Dhyerwolf]

Since Tidus NEEDS E&C to win, no way I see him coming with anything but Caladbolg, so Slim Hilda is more viable (and also 2HKOs Tidus).

I also see FFX kill point around 25,000 (Tidus's damage is 9,567 at minimum to me (arguably 12,300), Rikku's is 5,000, Auron is minimum of 4600. Wakka and Kimahri may go down a bit. Granted, Kimahri is a question mark that I'm not sure I would count at all and ODs are there to arguably push the average up a little so 25,000 works for me). All these contribute to certainly make the non-GS match pretty close.

Hilda also can in a way get around Slow...by casting Gale on herself.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Slim Hilda gets owned by Sonic Steel, though. (And Tidus should definitely get to choose his weapon after Hilda chooses her form, given the ridiculous difference in how much easier it is to make the respective choices in-game.)

SH3 Gale does not get rid of Slow in-game so I wouldn't hype it doing that against FFX's, but I could see going either way for that. (Is it a weakness of FFX slow that it can be overwritten by haste? Or a weakness of SH3 Gale that it doesn't overwrite its own slow? YMMV.)

[DragonKnight Zero]

Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2)  Angel Feather and Reflection reduce Aeris' weak damage even further.  If Claude is allowed Eternal Sphere, then I see it OK to give Celine the Holy Rod and its mighty 2% HP regen.  Buffs in place, she stands a fair chance of winning the ensuing slapfight even when Silenced by Seal Evil...

Oh, right.  Seal Evil also inflicts Stop.  With the HP regen frozen as well, this gives Aeris a headstart in  the damage race.  Bye bye.  Minerva Band spoils Holy Rod if one allows that.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike:

Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Heat (DDS2): Yeah, all ST not really the way to go against Heat unless you're a way higher tier of dueller than Chris is.
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD): Cid's best hope is to pray a shield buys him a turn against Slaughter and then go for the 3-2 but I really doubt he 3HKOs and that's even if I don't respect Default which I probably do.
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4): As a random side note to Pyro, Super Nova isn't actually gravity (in the elemental sense). FF7 is a rare game like BoF3 where gravity resistance exists on the PC side and it doesn't stop Super Nova, so I wouldn't hype Ryu3 doing any better myself. Anyway either paralysis or Shadow Flare OHKO both work to me

High Heavy:

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3): Abstain until I figure out how I feel about the evade. I suppose.
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN): I see Rayquaza as weak to Forgiver Sign so this is VERY ugly.
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8): Yeah, Super's right. Cecilia's got 0.8075 pdur (taking average mult as 2 as per my observations for the accessory thread, and adjusting for medium stats since I don't consider those), Tana should be above average damage unless you're doing something really wrong.
Alicia (VP2) vs Sharon (LoL2): Surely.


Low Heavy

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN): Abstain. Let's see what people think about starting SP.
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1): I think? Delita's faster with good evade and at worst 3HKOs himself, I think he can tank two Flay turns and some timed cards. Feel free to argue otherwise via an analysis, though.
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2): Yeah, no, to Elena going first.

Middle

Michiah (FE13) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC): Kyle needs two powerups to one-shot Micaiah, she certainly isn't failing to 3HKO him even if Thani doesn't hit a weakness (which to be fair I don't see).
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia (SO3): Freeze does its thing, I suppose.

:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4): Dogpremacy.
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2): Silence eh. But yeah she probably outslugs regardless.
Arthur (SF1) vs Gato (CT): Sure. I thought Gato countered magic too but apparently not.

[Dhyerwolf]

I definitely force people to make form/equip choices before going in and they need to be blind because otherwise it just goes back and forth. That said, this ends up being tricky since Caladbolg definitely loses to Slim Hilda to me (She 2HKOs, he 6HKOs (down from the normal 7HKO) before Hilda deals damage (which she'll choose to turn 1 to lower his and if he wants to start trying to stack any speed games, he'll only get the damage prorated attacks)). Sonic Steel definitely loses to Fat Hilda, and beats Slim Hilda (although if you allow a Defend command without the Damage reduction, I remember it had a pretty impressive recharge time. I think it was either 75% damage reduction with a 2x recharge (Not enough) or a 50% damage reduction with a 4x recharge (would likely swing the match to Hilda; however, I think it was the first one). So one weapon clearly loses to one form to me, and the other weapon clearly loses to the other. So...messy guessing game for me.

[Magic Fanatic]

Honestly?  Getting different forms in-game is fairly easy, as well - there are items that give or take 25 Calories, and depending on how good you are at Judgment Rings, you can get these pretty much in infinite supply with low effort.  I'd almost argue that this might let Hilda have her Mask forms as well, but I'm sure that'd be going too far for some people.