Shift Tournament 2: Week 2- Gato's not giving up those silver points!

[Dark Holy Elf]

Dhyer: Yeah, guessing games are a thing, and situations like this are pretty common (creating a 50/50 situation you can't resolve otherwise), so I'm a fan of resolving the guessing games by seeing which decision is easier to make in-game. It's a good way to reward flexbility. Since changing FFX weapons is something which can be done for no cost at any time out of battle in FFX (and for just a third of a turn in-battle!), it's obviously much easier than farming rare items from specific battle rewards with 100% ring perfect victories (which aren't even documented anywhere online, to my knowledge!), or using Calorie Drain multiple times. It also reins in other harder-to-make decisions like Pokemon movesets (or changing between classes for FE13 PCs if you allow that... and certainly things like Yuri/Deis choosing between which game's form to use if you allow that).

The one personal exception I make is that status blockers can always be chosen after the opponent chooses a status weapon, because screw status weapons.

[Nephrite]

Godlike:

Souji Seta (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13)
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Heat (DDS2)
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD)
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4)

High Heavy:

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3)
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8)
Alicia (VP2) vs Sharon (LoL2)


Low Heavy

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN)
Nash Latkje (S3) vs Tohru Adachi (Pers4)
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2)

Middle

Pepperoni (MK2)  vs Lita (BoD7)
Teddie (Pers4) vs Nanaki (FF7)
Michiah (FE13) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC)
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia (SO3)

:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4)
Mint Adenade (ToP) vs Nanami (VP1)
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2)
Arthur (SF1) vs Gato (CT)

[superaielman]

Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2)  Angel Feather and Reflection reduce Aeris' weak damage even further.  If Claude is allowed Eternal Sphere, then I see it OK to give Celine the Holy Rod and its mighty 2% HP regen.  Buffs in place, she stands a fair chance of winning the ensuing slapfight even when Silenced by Seal Evil...

Oh, right.  Seal Evil also inflicts Stop.  With the HP regen frozen as well, this gives Aeris a headstart in  the damage race.  Bye bye.  Minerva Band spoils Holy Rod if one allows that.

Celine's HP regen weapon makes her damage WORSE somehow which is all kinds of amazing (Unless you're talking about the CoT weapon?). I didn't think Angel Feather and Reflection stacked but correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[SnowFire]

super, was that a hatbot tiebreak of Claude vs. Jessica or did someone vote in chat?  Checking I forgot to go back and vote, and since nobody answered my question, I'd definitely tiebreak for Jessica since Claude getting Eternal Sphere is still pretty shaky for me, and he certainly isn't OHKOing without it.  (and no cost in a late tiebreak since neither is up for vote this week.)

Godlike:

Souji Seta (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13)
No vote, but for what it's worth, I thought Yu had a Persona that auto-cleansed debuffs at the start of his turn?  That'd be pretty good here, assuming you don't let Orphan spam their gravity move (in which case they heal-lock Yu w/ Merciless Judgment).
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD)
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4)

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3)
2 abilities that aren't that great in-game!  I agree with Elf that Hilda should have to pick her form first, though, didn't find manipulating calories easy at all (especially if you're aiming to eventually get a Mask form for a boss fight). 
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
This is a shaky vote since no Gen3 nor Gen6 for me, but sure, I'll buy Elf's hype that Fairy = Light = (sorta Shield Runey, since Sword Rune is definitely Dark at least and Shield is its opposite)
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8)
While WA1 def is a pile of crap, I certainly allow Vidofnir for Tana, so that should probably give her enough damage to one-round anyway even against Ceci's raw HP.

Low Heavy

Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2)

Middle

Michiah (FE13) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC)
Kyle is *dangerously* close to OHKOing for me, since he deals .56 PCHP damage on turn 2 and Micaiah is listed in the equal XP topic as .62 PDur, but I'd see the defense average as slightly higher.  That said, even if knocked to a survival check, FE defense is exagerrated when dealing with multiple hits and less important vs. one big hit (where you just want HP), so that seems a solid reason to tiebreak for Micaiah.  Kyle curses his  speed again, if he made even averageish he could win a movement tiebreak but nope.jpg.
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia (SO3)

:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4)
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2)

[Magic Fanatic]

it's obviously much easier than farming rare items from specific battle rewards with 100% ring perfect victories (which aren't even documented anywhere online, to my knowledge!)

The way I'm talking about is such: if you spend 100K in one trip at the store (which is then further reduced by the discount rings), you get a lottery ticket.  You can then take the Lottery Ticket to one of the lottery players (Arkam University for Fruity Fiber, Harlem for Angel Souffle), and pretty much exchange it for calories plus or minus for a small amount of effort.

At least, that's what I assume this is referring to.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Souji Seta (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13)
No vote, but for what it's worth, I thought Yu had a Persona that auto-cleansed debuffs at the start of his turn?  That'd be pretty good here, assuming you don't let Orphan spam their gravity move (in which case they heal-lock Yu w/ Merciless Judgment).

Only cleanses status and Yu has to spend a turn under the status IIRC. Yu also needs to compromise his offense and resistances/whatnot for the turn if he vies for that as well. Trying to keep himself unstatused involves a lot of juggling and likely compromises him at some point, especially having in mind that he has no real immunities worth noting (maybe very limited resistance to single status that may or may not involve giving up +10 points of all stats across the board).

[superaielman]

Neph tiebroke the match, Snowfire.

[Pyro]

Tana with the Vidofnir only does 1 point more in damage.

Was Ceci really that frail? I would figure defense only based on the  attack stat of things that have any kind of competent physical, so probably not for me. And Tana barely breaks average damage? She might not if you factor in crits. Though how does she do with crits...

[SnowFire]

Ceci has 89% PCHP (WA1o) but bad WA1 defense.  If Tana does averageish damage with a Silver Lance (=~.80 PCHP doubled), Vidofnir should push it more firmly in her favor, for all that she might win without it of course.  (Note that Elf claimed that Ceci is ~.80 PCHP with defense baked in without mediums, so even disrespecting WA1 Def that's ~.84 to .85 or so.)

I imagine under Dhyer/Pyro views Tana's damage isn't even close to enough of course.

[Dark Holy Elf]

WA1 uses multipliers after defence, so its Def stat is a bit more effective than some games in the series (which says nothing). The 2 multiplier assumed is something I arrived at by looking at the boss notes and a YouTube video, IIRC. It's only a guess, so yeah it's possible Cecilia is somewhat more durable, but it's equally possible she's less durable (just looking over the boss notes again, there's a move which seems to have a multiplier of 3?). 85% durability would be completely wrong; that's what you get if you assume the multiplier is 1, and it obviously isn't.

[Pyro]

The multiplier isn't really the relevant thing for relative defense effectiveness. That would be the enemy attack power.

For example if that 3x mult did 90% dmage (I know, har har WA1o boss doing that) then the proper attack stat to consider would be one that did 30% to average. Just caring about the mult and sticking to 'average mult does 40%PCHP' leads to considering an atta k power of 13.3%...

This matters because compaing defense to lower attack stats makes differences in defense look like they matter more.

I was commenting on how WA1 randoms kind of don't matter so I would notco sider them in determining what attack stat to use.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Sure, but unfortunately documenting all enemy atk stats is difficult (especially if some of them are modified by the attacks they use, which seems possible?) so it's often much easier to go with multipliers. And anyway, doing what I did and only looking multipliers is likely to understate the effect of WA1 defence, since as you note its enemies aren't too strong on average so I'm sure a lot of them do less than 40%, while still having a multiplier of 2+...

[Pyro]

I may be projecting my WA2 memories here, where even large differences in defense make almost no difference.

Anywho. For turn 1 damage, Tana is probably STILL better off with Killer weapons, as between that and her ~10% chance of Pierce,  she ekes out a > 67% chance of doing more than 2x Silver.

But FE8 doubling should probably be held against what actually matters, enemy AS. AS above 22 isn't all that helpful, as you tend to double just about everything regardless. So I don't see Tana as having > 80% PCHP damage or such.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

WA1 defense is -definitely- less impotent than WA2 and 3 defense. Likely, there's a bigger use of mults there.

[Pyro]

For what it's worth Snow, I did create a list of damages for everyone in VP2 using more reasonable endgame weapons. It should be at the bottom of the topic.

If I let Alicia have both the Confuse and Stun checks, I think she could pull it off. What, if anything, should she sacrifice for those? If she loses a decent amount of attack she might not be able to KO Sharon through the limit range...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm pretty sure Alicia ends up losing either too much durability or offense if she opts for the Checks, since VP2 equipment stacking for bonuses is so potent. It's honestly kinda telling that I wasn't even putting much thought to the status when I made the vote.

[Pyro]

I doubt Sharon can overcome with damage barring a Mystic Arte? Even on a double she won't KO...

But she can use Armor with the 'Dark Guard' property. That would be enough to stave off a 2HKO from a Gram and ensure victory?

[VySaika]

Godlike:

Souji Seta (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13)
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Heat (DDS2) - Seems clear
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD) - Seems clear
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4) - Sadly, seems clear

High Heavy:

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3) - blaaaaarg just gonna respect-check this one since Hilda formchoice stuff is headachy and does Grand Slam even get past E&C etc etc. Tidus very clearly wins vs one form, and vs the other. That's enough for a "nope, not thinking about it any further" vote.
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - Forgiver Sign does its thing, I think I'm not voting on mega evolutions yet.
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8) - goes first, wins
Alicia (VP2) vs Sharon (LoL2) - alicia respect outside of Heal not really found. Heal won't help against Sharon


Low Heavy

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN) - I allow some starting SP
Nash Latkje (S3) vs Tohru Adachi (Pers4) - kneejerk
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1) - kneejerk
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2) - slow and not durable vs cordelia. That'll end well.

Middle

Pepperoni (MK2)  vs Lita (BoD7)
Teddie (Pers4) vs Nanaki (FF7) - kneejerk
Michiah (FE13) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC) - sure
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia (SO3) - sophia used freeze. it's stupidly effective!

:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4)-  hell if I can remember what any individual suikodog did
Mint Adenade (ToP) vs Nanami (VP1) - this is fantastic, ride that healing train to victory Mint!
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2) - surely
Arthur (SF1) vs Gato (CT) - i don't even remember who arthur is

[Luther Lansfeld]

Godlike:

Souji Seta (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13)
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Heat (DDS2)
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD)
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4)

High Heavy:

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3)
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8)
Alicia (VP2) vs Sharon (LoL2)


Low Heavy

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN)
Nash Latkje (S3) vs Tohru Adachi (Pers4)
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2)

Middle

Pepperoni (MK2)  vs Lita (BoD7)
Teddie (Pers4) vs Nanaki (FF7)
Michiah (FE13) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC)
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia (SO3)

:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4)
Mint Adenade (ToP) vs Nanami (VP1)
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2)
Arthur (SF1) vs Gato (CT)

[DjinnAndTonic]

After seeing how successful Mint is, I move to have ToP reinstated in CKDL roster.

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:

Souji Seta (Pers4) vs Orphan (FF13)- Does seem right
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs Heat (DDS2)
Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) vs Airy (BD)
Sephiroth (FF7) vs Ryu (BoF4)

High Heavy:

Tidus (FFX) vs Hildagarde Valentine (SH3)- Ah yes, this match. First I should say, that if we are going for ease of doing something, that really should be Hilda's advantage. Yes, it's easier for Tidus to switch weapons, but...it's an extreme pain in the ass to get his Celestial. Hmm, I wonder if I replay FF X how I might even feel about those in general (I mean...the one time I did get it, Tidus'...took me...hours? of extra play. Is this better than powerlevelling?). But as noted, this match is super swingy, but I think in terms of things, Hilda has the advantage since it's not 100% whether I would see E&C catching and it's arguable whether all the Celestials are obtainable enough to be legal (IIRC, Yuna, Rikku and Auron's are the only ones I could get reliably). That said, yes, ID isn't great in SH 3 since a lot of enemies just immune it, so...could my mind be turned back? Probably. Eh. I think I'll just abstain.
Riou (S2) vs Rayquaza (PKMN)
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) vs Tana (FE8)- Tana doesn't even 2HKO average to me, so...yeah.
Alicia (VP2) vs Sharon (LoL2)- Gut is that evade should slow Alicia down enough regardless


Low Heavy

Rose (LoD) vs Odie (SN)
Nash Latkje (S3) vs Tohru Adachi (Pers4)
Delita Hyral (FFT) vs Flay Gunnar (MK1)
Cordelia (FE13) vs Elena (G2)

Middle

Pepperoni (MK2)  vs Lita (BoD7)
Teddie (Pers4) vs Nanaki (FF7)
Michiah (FE13) vs Kyle (Lunar:SSSC)
Spar (BoF2) vs Sophia (SO3)

:

Kosanji (S3) vs Mist Dragon (FF4)
Mint Adenade (ToP) vs Nanami (VP1)
Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) vs Celine Jules (SO2)